I suppose that's a fair point, STAB goes a long way.
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Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]
- Thread starter ganj4lF
- Start date
Garchomp gets a free switch in on Jirachi Thunder and can outspeed and OHKO with Earthquake so yes, Garchomp can switch in later on if necessary.
Also, according to your argument Terrakion is a lead. Garchomp has SR so it's their lead, meaning even with Focus Sash Garchomp can 2HKO while your Terrakion either sets up as suicide lead or switches out(allowing Chomp to set up SR).
Yeah Terrakion can't support the team very well outside of setting up Stealth Rock. Garchomp just has an advantage over it in the lead position, and that's principally because of Rough Skin. Azelf does much better because Garchomp has to lock itself into Outrage to kill it. Go through the possible Terrakion vs. Garchomp opening scenarios and you'll see what I mean.
Based on my research of Medicham vs Gallade, the only thing that I can find to benefit Gallade is the fact that HJK can be very easy to exploit. A HJK miss can happen through poor hax, a ghost switch in, or the opponent using protect. To me, this is a pretty big deal. Close Combat is a much more spammable move than Hi Jump Kick. Yes, Medicham does have more power and I was thinking about using him instead, but I wanted the Grass/Ice coverage that Team 2 is current weak to.
With that said, Medicham hits like a fucking truck. I'm going to stick with Gallade though because his chances of having his sweep stopped is less likely than Medicham having his sweep halted.
lol wut? A base 90 coverage move with an increased Critical Hit rate isn't anything to laugh at. And as to your point of using scarf Terrakion instead, it would compound our common weaknesses, most notably to ground and water moves. Since ghost and flying moves aren't all that popular, unless Team 2 makes a pick specifically against Galllade, I doubt he will have to deal with getting hit by a move super-effectively. Plus, these are typically special-based moves so Gallade can take the hit if need be.
Just a worry, the set has great coverage but a locked pokemon has no point running coverage: once it's locked that coverage is as good as gone.
That's why I'd like to propose that we look for a fast pokemon and not run choice items as far as possible(unless to trick them).
Just a note, if we DO select Gallade, Magnezone forms a good partnership with Gallade as Gallade can take most ground and fire types while Magnezone takes the Ghost and Flying types that Gallade detests.
Just another though, why not take a note out of Lucian's book(Elite 4 Platinum) and run Psycho Cut? It provides good coverage vs Terrakion and is a good STAB move.
That's why I'd like to propose that we look for a fast pokemon and not run choice items as far as possible(unless to trick them).
Just a note, if we DO select Gallade, Magnezone forms a good partnership with Gallade as Gallade can take most ground and fire types while Magnezone takes the Ghost and Flying types that Gallade detests.
Just another though, why not take a note out of Lucian's book(Elite 4 Platinum) and run Psycho Cut? It provides good coverage vs Terrakion and is a good STAB move.
If you're looking for a decent offensive Stealth Rocker can I present another suggestion?
Mamoswine @ Focus Sash
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
I have looked at Team B's composition and Mamoswine provides perfect offensive pressure to merit a spot on the team.
The set may look odd but hear me out. Focus Sash may not provide pure power but It guarantees two things. An almost definite stealth rock, and if you manage to do that with your sash intact, a great revenge killer.
I've chosen EdgeQuake coverage over Icicle crash because Ice Shard and EdgeQuake reliably deal with everything threatening Team A as of now, except Rotom-W, but you have a Jirachi so that's not going to be such a big issue. Great offenses ensure that Garchomp is unable to treat it as set up fodder, and Zapdos struggles to land a super-effective hit while being threatened out by a combination of Stone Edge + Ice Shard, and with sash intact you can confidently lead with it without worrying about Terrakion 2HKOing you without being OHKOed in return with STAB EQ. It provides great Physical support to a team that is almost exclusively Specially based till now.
Power of Over Speed because Adamant is needed to net some vital 2HKOes
Note: You may easily replace Stone Edge with Superpower as the team seems Blissey weak at the moment and Zapdos is somewhat checked between Lando-I + Jirachi, but that would leave you extremely vulnerable should team B choose to add something like Gyarados.
Thoughts?
Mamoswine @ Focus Sash
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
I have looked at Team B's composition and Mamoswine provides perfect offensive pressure to merit a spot on the team.
The set may look odd but hear me out. Focus Sash may not provide pure power but It guarantees two things. An almost definite stealth rock, and if you manage to do that with your sash intact, a great revenge killer.
I've chosen EdgeQuake coverage over Icicle crash because Ice Shard and EdgeQuake reliably deal with everything threatening Team A as of now, except Rotom-W, but you have a Jirachi so that's not going to be such a big issue. Great offenses ensure that Garchomp is unable to treat it as set up fodder, and Zapdos struggles to land a super-effective hit while being threatened out by a combination of Stone Edge + Ice Shard, and with sash intact you can confidently lead with it without worrying about Terrakion 2HKOing you without being OHKOed in return with STAB EQ. It provides great Physical support to a team that is almost exclusively Specially based till now.
Power of Over Speed because Adamant is needed to net some vital 2HKOes
Note: You may easily replace Stone Edge with Superpower as the team seems Blissey weak at the moment and Zapdos is somewhat checked between Lando-I + Jirachi, but that would leave you extremely vulnerable should team B choose to add something like Gyarados.
Thoughts?
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 392-464 (120.98 - 143.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 274-324 (71.35 - 84.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ice Shard: 43.75 - 51.56% - Guaranteed 2HKO after rocks
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 304-360 (84.91 - 100.55%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
Guaranteed after rocks.
Guaranteed with sash intact.
252+ Atk Mamoswine Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 274-324 (71.35 - 84.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ice Shard: 43.75 - 51.56% - Guaranteed 2HKO after rocks
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 304-360 (84.91 - 100.55%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
Guaranteed after rocks.
Guaranteed with sash intact.
Yea, I see what you're saying. I look at Gallade as the pokemon who will net a kill and will have to switch out, or the pokemon who will be kept in reserve until the end to clean up. I was really hoping to get a Moxie abuser but I couldn't find one who fit what I was looking for.
Problem with Mamoswine (as well as Terrakion and a few others) is that they don't actually counter either Rotom-W or Garchomp atm. They could have merit once we have those two threats out of the way but for now I think we should focus on taking care of them first (probably with two separate picks). The problem we are facing right now is that we only have a total of three picks left and two of them need to be a revenge killer and a SR setter. On top of that, actual counters to Garchomp are just begging us to be walled to death by a SpDef Skarmory. This is why I'm liking the SR Azelf set so far. It can setup SR, pose an offensive threat and can at least exploit Garchomp's limited attacking options to force a kill trade or nothing at all.
Well I did specifically choose a sash set that would defeat Garchomp on the most common 1v1 situations. Trapped/Revenge/Set-Up bait. but doing all 3 (Counter Chomp+Counter Rotom-W+Rocks+Threaten Skarmory) with a single submission is kind of hard
I feel like siding with a special variant of Azelf is going to make Team 1 very special wall-weak. Whether that wall is a pink blob, Snorlax, Jirachi, Heatran, Amoongus, or any other one special wall worth noting. Kye-B is also pretty easy to find a check for, so I feel like it should be reserved for the last pick for Team 1 if he still fits in that well. Finally, how can you even call either one of the two picks you like "Garchomp counters" when they are both OHKO'd on the switch in by Outrage? My suggestion is in the same boat but I never referred to Gallade as a chomp counter, just something that can beat it 1 on 1 and come out unscathed.
Okay, we can start the voting phase I guess. I'm quite confused on what Team 1 should do at the moment, so I'm very curious to see the outcome of it.
This vote will decide the fourth pokemon of Team 1. The possible entries are:
As usual, to vote you have to send a PM to Melee Mewtwo; you should write in both the title and the body of your message "CtP: your preference", where your preference is obviously selected from the previous list. You will have at least 24 hours to vote. Go!
This vote will decide the fourth pokemon of Team 1. The possible entries are:
- Scarf Haxorus
- Durant
- Physical Azelf
- Magnezone
- Terrakion
- Tyranitar
- Special Azelf
- Specs Azelf
- Scarf Gallade
- Scarf Kyurem-B
- Mamoswine
As usual, to vote you have to send a PM to Melee Mewtwo; you should write in both the title and the body of your message "CtP: your preference", where your preference is obviously selected from the previous list. You will have at least 24 hours to vote. Go!
Yeah
Yeah, I was just being lazy in my last post because I assuming the post I made before was already read. Azelf checks Garchomp in a special way. Being immune to Earthquake means that the only way Garchomp will ever be able to kill it is by using Outrage. Fortunately, Outrage locks Garchomp in which means we can follow up with a quick revenge kill. Basically, it allows us to make sure both sides are even. Either we both have our SR setters or neither of us have them. It's not really ideal in the slightest and I would definitely prefer something else but it's the best we got. If we go for real counters to Garchomp, Team 2 will just pick a SpDef Skarm (it can probably even get away with Shed Shell) and wall about 4 (or more) members of Team 1 while setting up Spikes. If we don't counter Garchomp and instead opt for more offensive power, the land shark will find many opportunities to nab a kill. Azelf is the best in between option I could find that allows us to discount Garchomp as a team sweeping threat while providing the key SR and having an offensive presence.
Edit: Although, I should have probably mentioned that the fact Tbolt loses coverage on Latitwins makes U-Turn a superior option. Too late now but it further complicates this vote as even this set leaves us vulnerable to the mighty Latios/Hydreigon. Perhaps Kyurem B would be the stronger choice? Although the SR weakness and reliability good Fusion Bolt prediction to avoid being setup fodder for SpDef Skarmory is a turn off :/.
Yea I understood what you meant but I just don't find it to be a reliable strategy to set Stealth Rocks. However, is it so crucial Team 2 gets their rocks down? None of Team 1's pokemon are currently SR-weak, so with some good prediction Garchomp can simply SD up while Azelf comes in. Then a choice has to be made: to set SR or to attack so that Chomp doesn't continue to get stronger. I feel like this puts Team 2 in a better position than Team 1 if we choose to go with a special variant of Azelf since it also lacks Ice Punch.
On the other hand, if Azelf is in already and Garchomp switches directly into it, than yea, Stealth Rock will be set. Based on the choices we have, if we were going to pick a pokemon to set up SR with this pick, I would probably go with Terrakion or Mamoswine since that would put more pressure on Team 2 instead of just assigning a special wall to wreck 4/6 of our choices hands down.
TL;DR: I don't like this strategy and feel like it is easily exploitable.
Throughout this whole conversation, the only thing that has come up against Scarf Haxorus is Specially Defensive Skarmory. As Team 2 is currently constructed, Haxorus wastes it and serves as a great revenge killer in general. It also gives Team 1 good synergy, switch-in opportunities on Team 2's numerous Volt Switches, isn't weak to Stealth Rock like Kyurem-B, and doesn't have to click Outrage to net a kill against both Terrakion and Rotom-W thanks to Mold Breaker, an invaluable ability against Levitate. It also gives us yet another check and faster 'mon to Terrakion should Slowbro go down.
I don't think specially defensive Skarmory is scary enough here, not when we can pick our next 'mon with it in mind to deter it. Any time we can narrow down Team 1's "best options" to one Pokemon before they even choose it is a success, not a failure.
I don't think specially defensive Skarmory is scary enough here, not when we can pick our next 'mon with it in mind to deter it. Any time we can narrow down Team 1's "best options" to one Pokemon before they even choose it is a success, not a failure.
Well, Azelf has Psyshock so it's going to need to be a special wall that resists/immune to psychic type attacks. Anyways, in the scenario you described I feel the best move would be to simply setup SR as, regardless of Chomp's boosts, Team 1 is just going to revenge the Outrage locked dragon with the Choice Scarf user that'll surely be picked soon.
Edit: We aren't narrowing their best options, we are essentially handing them the game by making a single pick massively overpowered. It's like saying we limited their options to Kingdra by picking Politoed.
Also, the ability to lay waste to the opposing team isn't unique to Scarf Haxorus. Nothing that is currently on Team 2 can switch in safely on Azelf (for example) nor many of the other picks. The main thing to remember, though, is that the present situation isn't permanent. The other team will counter Haxorus and make that clean sweep difficult to obtain.
Edit: We aren't narrowing their best options, we are essentially handing them the game by making a single pick massively overpowered. It's like saying we limited their options to Kingdra by picking Politoed.
Also, the ability to lay waste to the opposing team isn't unique to Scarf Haxorus. Nothing that is currently on Team 2 can switch in safely on Azelf (for example) nor many of the other picks. The main thing to remember, though, is that the present situation isn't permanent. The other team will counter Haxorus and make that clean sweep difficult to obtain.
At this point I feel a Scarfer is the best bet, but of course Rocks/Scarf need to go 1-2 right now, so I'll be highly disappointed is neither of those get picked now. I was going to pick Haxorus, but the fact that it only has Outrage and not Dragon Claw is extremely concerning, as the other team can easily pick Skarmory or Forretress right now and wall Haxorus for two or three turns and set up hazards and spin or roost off damage. Dragon Claw is a need for me, as is scarf. So I picked Kyurem-B. Fusion Bolt also gives a counter to Skarmory should the other team pick it if they think they can just switch in Skarmory immediately and not wait for the Outrage. It's just little things that made me pick Kyurem-B.
This is a tough pick. It's hard because it seems like most of the good picks aren't optimized, but I guess that's something we have to live with. My trouble with Kyurem-B is that even though it does well against Rotom-W (sponges a couple hits) and can kill all of team 2, sponging even one hit from Rotom-W lets it go down very quickly along with Stealth Rock. I'm a little worried that Kyurem-B won't be able to clean late game. This might not be a huge problem though because a faster scarfer or priority pick by them can easily force it not to ever clean anyway.
I'm really not sure how to choose between Kyurem-B and Azelf (special stealth rock) here. These are the main two choices to me. Haxorus is cool but I also don't like the lack of Dragon Claw plus it's not quite as bulky or strong. The general guideline "pick something that beats their team" is currently fulfilled by both Azelf and Kyurem-B, while the guideline "pick something hard to counter" isn't quite fulfilled. Kyurem-B is probably the harder one to counter, but that doesn't have to mean anything because Azelf provides Stealth Rock, and looking at available Stealth Rock options for Team 1, there's not much that is that is easy to counter.
This amounts to what I feel is futility in trying to make one pick at a time rather than picking two Pokemon at once. To me it seems that actually making the project format such that we pick two Pokemon at once would make the thread go totally haywire, but it still seems futile. Rocks need to be in one of picks four and five and Scarf doesn't necessarily, so I think I like rocks at this point but this is a pretty tough decision.
I'm really not sure how to choose between Kyurem-B and Azelf (special stealth rock) here. These are the main two choices to me. Haxorus is cool but I also don't like the lack of Dragon Claw plus it's not quite as bulky or strong. The general guideline "pick something that beats their team" is currently fulfilled by both Azelf and Kyurem-B, while the guideline "pick something hard to counter" isn't quite fulfilled. Kyurem-B is probably the harder one to counter, but that doesn't have to mean anything because Azelf provides Stealth Rock, and looking at available Stealth Rock options for Team 1, there's not much that is that is easy to counter.
This amounts to what I feel is futility in trying to make one pick at a time rather than picking two Pokemon at once. To me it seems that actually making the project format such that we pick two Pokemon at once would make the thread go totally haywire, but it still seems futile. Rocks need to be in one of picks four and five and Scarf doesn't necessarily, so I think I like rocks at this point but this is a pretty tough decision.
The reason I left out Dragon Claw is because it's not hitting anything on Team 2 that it needs to except for Zapdos. Due to Mold Breaker, Earthquake dispatches of Rotom-W just fine without needing to use Outrage. The choice between Dragon Claw and Aqua Tail simply came down to coverage, and I figured that having something that could severely dent a pick like Gliscor, Hippowdon, or Landorus-T (again, without needing to use Outrage) in Aqua Tail was more important than Dragon Claw.
To be honest everybody says "we need a scarfer, we need a scarfer" but do we really need one? Lots of good teams get by without one, so that argument needs a little more backing to convince me.
SR is again not that needed considering no mons on team 2 are SR weak.
To be honest, I'd prefer that we select a mon with good coverage and ability to tank a hit because that's exactly what we need, which is why I picked Physical Azelf.
SR is again not that needed considering no mons on team 2 are SR weak.
To be honest, I'd prefer that we select a mon with good coverage and ability to tank a hit because that's exactly what we need, which is why I picked Physical Azelf.
Wut?
Have you even checked out the members of team 2? Last time I checked their Special Tank was rocks weak and our team has been heavily special based till now.
There are very few good BW OU teams without a Scarfer. That said, I think you're right that it needs some justification because as we all know, Counter That Pokemon changes everything. A Scarfer works as a) revenge killer and b) late-game cleaner. Now both of these roles are important but can be fulfilled in other ways, and aren't as important if a team has a solid defensive core. I think the reason people say we need a Scarfer is because it keeps speedy Pokemon in check, as the only way to outspeed a Scarfer is with another Scarfer or priority mon. I really wouldn't mind not choosing a Scarfer though, or waiting until the last pick to do it, because it's very easy to exploit a pick 4 or 5 Scarfer.
We could alternatively use naturally fast mons like Aerodactyl(great anti-lead, might post for mon 5) or Crobat or Weavile, but yeah I get the point.
The reason I NEVER use Choice Items in general is because being locked is never really good considering the variety of trappers available in the tier.
The reason I NEVER use Choice Items in general is because being locked is never really good considering the variety of trappers available in the tier.