The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Trainer Au]

A lot of bulky water types have some sort of phasing move--for example: Suicine has Roar, Milotic has Dragon Tail or Haze, etc etc.

Please don't start a big fight with me again.

The idea of Wrath is to come in on any move not being roar and encore it, then sub. Milo's Dtail is a 3-4 hit KO on wrath's sub, and the sub punch set doesn't mind haze.

 

[kokoloko]

i swear to god the next person to post anything even remotely stupid is getting infracted

now time to clean up this thread that some of you have done such a fantastic job at shitting up

in other words, shut up about floatzel (and adding stuff to E rank in general, that's just dumb)

 

[PTJon7]

I would like to submit Piloswine for low B-Rank or High C-Rank, with main focus on a set along these lines:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piloswine @ Eviolite
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature

• Icicle Spear/Icicle Crash
• Earthquake
• Ice Shard
• Stealth Rock/Stone Edge

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pros:

+ With Eviolite Piloswine has the physical bulk of an uninvested Rhyperior (base 130 Def) and the special bulk of an uninvested Mew (base 100 SDef)

+ Access to STABs that are only resisted by Bronzong and Rotom-H (due to Levitate)

+ Access to priority Ice Shard powerful enough to OHKO a Flygon and 2HKO a 252 HP Roserade

+ Access to Stealth Rock, Roar, and Toxic (and Dual Screens even)

+ Has the amazing ability Thick Fat, making it resistant to Ice and neutral to Fire (which lets Piloswine score a lot of cheap kills on Fire types)

+ Is a great boon for Hail teams, being immune to Hail while at the same time able to take out Fire types

+ Counters Sub-CM Raikou ridiculously well (if my memory serves me right a +1 HP Ice does around 10-20% to Piloswine)

Cons:

- Slow speed stat of base 50

- Inability to deal with bulky Water types while also being weak to Water

- Lack of recovery outside of Rest (does have access to Sleep Talk however, could make an interesting set)

- Fairly poor special defense

- Easy to revenge kill
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I personally love Piloswine, and think it has a significant niche in UU as a bulky attacker, and maybe even a physical wall. I'd be interested to hear anyone else's thoughts on this pokemon.

EDIT: Added another Pro

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Haha PTJon7, I actually put that Piloswine on my team, that exact set recently. I remember having seen you use it a couple times, and it really fit on a team that was majorly weak to Scarf Flygon, Yanmega, and Raikou, and it works greatly. I cosign his support for Piloswine in Low B/High-C rank.

Seeing Piloswine eat a Chandelure's Fire Blast while having no SpD investment just sealed it for me.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I had previously nominated both umbreon and suicune for A-Rank but unfornately they both stayed at B-Rank. I'll quote the arguments i used:

Umbreon should be A-Rank. That thing can pretty much wall anything that lacks fighting moves and pass wishes and heal bell easily making the team much harder to beat. Also Suicune should definitely be S-Rank or at least A-Rank. Once it gets those calm minds going nothing other than phazers will stop it from sweeping teams. Solid bulk and typing + pressure makes it easy to stall the opposition. Pretty much only specs raikou, specs zapdos and shaymin have a chance to beat it after it has setupped once. That sounds pretty S-Rank to me.

I won so many games by just setuping calm minds with Suicune i cant even count. That thing is near impossible to beat without those 3 threats i mentioned in my quote. Also Umbreon is an excellent wall capable of both shut down threats like chandelure but also support the team with wish and heal bell. I feel they both deserve to be A-Rank.

 

[relaunched]

Piloswine: I can't see it working as a physical wall because it's got terrible defensive typing for that in UU. Beating Electrics is definitely its niche, and that's not good enough to be a wall, so it would have to be a bulky attacker. I guess the main draw is Ice attacks. I'm not quite convinced this is enough for it to be great though. I tried making a team that used Piloswine for a bit and couldn't really find one where I'd rather use it than one of the numerous other great Ground-types. What lets Piloswine have a niche over the competition?

Suicune: Okay SmashBrosBrawl Suicune is a good Pokemon but S-Rank is out of the question and A-Rank even is. I love Suicune and have been using it to great effect as a phazer recently but it's not as insane as you think it is. Cune is a great bulky water and great phazer, and it has a sweeping niche with a Calm Mind + Roar set. Unfortunately CroCune faces severe competition from Slowbro as a slow Calm Mind user, who sports reliable recovery with Slack Off/Regenerator and Psyshock, along with Psychic typing, which serves as both a blessing and a curse. As an offensive Calm Mind user, it's not bad because it can hit pretty hard and take a few hits.

Just take a look at S-Rank. Suicune doesn't deal well with Kingdra, Raikou, Snorlax, Togekiss or Zapdos. That's a lot of really good Pokemon you're contending with. As a bulky water, it faces competition from Slowbro, Slowking, Blastoise, Qwilfish and Swampert, all of which have their own perks. You can run two bulky waters but that's not a great idea because that means you're probably building a defensive team and are guaranteed to have two Pokemon that get walked all over by electric types (Swampert is a bit of an exception). All of these Pokemon can support the team better than Cune can, most of them can phaze/haze like Suicune, and it's not easy to argue for Suicune over Slowbro/Slowking as a Calm Mind user. With this huge competition for bulky water I can't see Suicune as an A-Rank threat.

Umbreon: On the other hand, I can understand Umbreon for A-rank. I wouldn't go so far as to say it can shut down Chandelure, but it walls a lot of Special stuff, stays around for a long time, supports the team really well, and makes even Fighting-types be careful to switch in because Foul Play does a ton of damage. The one thing that holds it back is really bad momentum. Just horrible. You'll notice that every Pokemon in A-Rank and S-Rank can run a set that keeps the momentum going. Umbreon doesn't have that, and it's setup fodder for quite a few threats. This might be why it's B-Rank.

 

[spuds4ever]

Suicune is really not as good as it used to be back when spikes which it could abuse (but also was weak to) were everywhere. Atm, suicune just can't do enough, CM suicune is countered by tonnes of stuff, especially while it's asleep: CMbro with psyshock, CBcross or LO mienshao can both comfortably 2hko it while it is asleep and phasing waters make life difficult phasing it out when it's asleep. Roarcune fails to do much nowadays. The offensive set isn't bad tbf, I remember having some good success with it when paired with venomoth (even more so than other baton pass recipents as cune can take a hit, especially from switching in fire types). B rank is where it belongs.

 

[Warb]

@ relaunched:
The thing about Umbreon killing momentum is only half true imo. It has access to baton pass, which serves the exact same purpose as VoltTurn. And with its supreme bulk and slow Baton Pass, it is more or less guaranteed to get another team member in safely.
The only problem about this is the moveslot. You generally want to have Wish and Foul Play. Then you need Protect to make sure your have reliable recovery and to scout for choiced moves. On the last moveslot you often want to have Heal Bell to support the rest of your team, but at the same time this set makes you a sitting duck because you will spend countless turns just wishing, protecting and throwing around a few Foul Plays inbetween; a pattern that can be easily predicted and outmaneuvered (although the opposite may also be the case). Since Umbreon's 4 main moves are more or less mandatory for most teams that employ it, Baton Pass is often foregone simply because there is just no slot left.

I personally tried to use an Umbreon with Baton Pass instead of Heal Bell and it does work really well at keeping momentum, because there are a lot of pokes that can't do that much to it thanks to Wish + Protect and want to switch out when Umbreon comes in. But the problem with this set is status, especially toxic.

 

[Aecor]

I can see Umbreon being in B tier (AKA Stay where it is). It's pretty much a one-trick pony, but it does the job well. It is a great special or mixed walls, boasting great 95/110/130 defenses. It has some awesome moves, such as Moonlight, Wish, and Heal Bell. It is an excellent supporter and can stall out many special attackers with the right prediction. However, that being said, it is set-up fodder for quite a few Pokes, such as CroCune, Cobalion, etc etc. It has little offensive presence, as it relies heavily on Foul Play or toxic stalling--both of which aren't consistently helpful. I don't see how Umb is anything higher than B ranked. It has little to no offensive presence and is basically the special Gligar--except better.

But, a well-played Umb can definitely stall out a god chunk of the A-ranked pokes.

 

[PTJon7]

I second Umbreon for A-Tier, I've brought it up a couple times with limited success. It shuts down so many special attackers, and thanks to Foul Play even physical attackers are afraid of it. Baton Pass helps it keep up the momentum, thought honestly you won't really be using an Umbreon on a team relying on a whole lot of offensive momentum. Umbreon is one of the best walls in the tier, and the best cleric by far.

Suicune for S-Rank is reaaaally stretching it, but Suicune in Low A-Rank seems pretty reasonable. CroCune can under the right conditions be extremely threatening, and it definitely is not hard for Suicune to get a Calm Mind or two during the average game. Offensive CM Suicune can also be a potent threat, packing much superior coverage than just Scald.

 

[KM]

Hmm. Time for another opinion that's probably going to be decisively shat on, but fk it.

Sableye for A-Rank.

Sableye is categorically the best Prankster in the entire tier, the only other one even able to use it is Tornadus, whose limited non-offensive movepool really allows it to do little else than Tailwind/Taunt/T-Wave. More importantly, Sableye can shut down entire stall teams solely by itself. I literally would have to have thousands of hands sprouting out of my body to be able to count the number of times on my fingers that I haven't switched from Sableye the whole match against a stall team, usually leading to a forfeit by T15. Priority Taunt by itself is ridiculously good, but when you combine it with reliable recovery, status, and a sick defensive typing it can become a seriously A-level threat.

For the purposes of argument, I'm going to talk about the SpD sableye set, which is arguably the best set.

Sableye @ Leftovers/Lagging Tail
Prankster
Careful Nature - 248 HP/252 SpD/8 Spe - 0 Speed IV
- Night Shade
- Will-O-Wisp/ Trick
- Taunt/ Trick
- Recover

Pros:
+ Prankster Taunt offers early game Hazard stopping as well as making Sableye immune to status unless switching in.
+ Priority Will-o-Wisp provides inherited physical bulk, theoretically bringing Sableye's defenses to 50/150/65.
+ Dark/Ghost defensive typing makes it immune to Normal/Fighting/Psychic as well as weak to literally nothing.
+ Access to Trick lets it emergency-cripple sweepers if the team has no surviving counter.
+ Access to reliable recovery in Recover, which is also priority.
+ Night Shade/Foul Play allows for decent solid damage allowing to kill off things like Roserade/Umbreon while blocking them from healing.
+ Access to other niche moves like priority weather set-up that can provide utility and team support, as well as weather-dependent options like Moonlight

Cons:
- Even with max SpD and inherited WoW bulk, it's by no means a defensive monster and can't be switched in on any powerful hits, with a few exceptions (Overheat/Leaf Storm without Hazard support can be tanked and then recovered off).
- Has little to no offensive presence other than reliable 100 HP damage. Has good offensive movepool with access to Sucker Punch, Zen Headbutt, Hone Claws, Foul Play, Shadow Claw/Ball, etc. etc. but can't back it up with 75 Att/65 SpA.
- Is relatively predictable given that the only viable set is support Prankster.

 

[relaunched]

I don't like Sableye for A-Rank because it's very easy to play around and doesn't do much to support the team. Even with full Special Defense investment, Sableye is overwhelmed by common Special attackers like Life Orb Zapdos. It also can't deal well with physical Fire-types and Guts users like Darmanitan and Choice Band Heracross. Also, while it does a good job neutering physical threats once it's in on them, it can't switch in on much except for predicted Fighting and Normal attacks, which is risky business if they make a different prediction. Now, it does do much better against defensive teams than offensive teams in general, but watch out for Porygon2, which can trace Sableye's Prankster, Toxic it, not worry about Night Shade, and happily absorb Will-o-Wisp. It won't enjoy losing its Eviolite, though unfortunately running Trick really hurts Sableye by taking up a slot over Taunt or Will-o-Wisp.

The gist of the above is, it's weak to too many common and threatening offensive Pokemon, and can't wall things like the Defensive Pokemon in A and S rank can, though it does give stall a lot of trouble. It's a niche Pokemon.

 

[PTJon7]

Yea I gotta agree with Relaunched, while Sableye does a good job of supporting a team through burning and taunting stuff, it can easily be dealt with by special attackers, Fire types, or pokemon with Guts. It's pretty terrible defensive stats stop it from being able to take any decently powerful hit very well, but it can still be an effective wall under certain conditions. I say it stays in B-Rank.

 

[Bassmaster4]

Even though Sableye can piss on stall teams like you said, most special attackers can deal with Sableye easily. Also, the ever-so-common Fire titans of the tier can switch in to Sableye, and he can't do anything without eating a V-Create/Flare Blitz/FireBlast. His overall shit stats don't do much for him either, so I think he's fine in B-Rank.

 

[silenced]

While I'd be fine with sableye in B still, Switching in a fire type into sableye only to eat STAB foul play combined with either huge attack/weak to dark is not a good idea at all.

I'm really not sure why you would use night shade at all when you have access to foul play, which patches up quite a major switch-in problem otherwise. Once you burn/taunt something to the point where it's useless, sableye should be switching out so something else can take advantage of the crippled foe.

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

I didn't see Ferroseed anywhere in the rankings, which is quite frankly shocking. It is easily one of the best physical walls in the tier, and by far the best defensive spiker, more so than roserade. Due to eviolite, it can take non-stab, and even some stab fighting type attacks, most notably a choice scarf mienshao's hi jump kick. It can even take nuetral special attacks really well. While it may not have instant recovery, and it does have low HP, this can be mitigated by leech seed, which due to its low hp, means it usually recovers 15% of its health each turn, and tons more if it's the ever common Snorlax. It walls the likes of Shaymin w/o HP Fire, Flygon, Kingdra, Bisharp, Rhyperior, Sharpedo, Swampert, Snorlax, and many more. Anything lacking a fire type or high powered fighting type stab move is walled by Ferroseed.

All this being said, I nominate Ferroseed for B-rank

 

[PTJon7]

Firstly, Ferroseed is slow and weak as hell. It is probably one of the easiest things to set up on in the tier. This is mainly due to it's lack of recovery and terrible attack stat (base 50).

Just because something can take a hit doesn't mean it's good, look at Dusclops for example (the only member of E-Rank). All in all, while Ferroseed does have access to Spikes and Stealth Rocks, it just isn't that good. I would say C-Rank, or even D-Rank.

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

Firstly, Ferroseed is slow and weak as hell. It is probably one of the easiest things to set up on in the tier. This is mainly due to it's lack of recovery and terrible attack stat (base 50).

Just because something can take a hit doesn't mean it's good, look at Dusclops for example (the only member of E-Rank). All in all, while Ferroseed does have access to Spikes and Stealth Rocks, it just isn't that good. I would say C-Rank, or even D-Rank.

Yeah, I did neglect to mention that it is pathetic offensively, and it is set up bait, but simply carrying toxic or thunder wave severely hurts, if not out right stop, any chance of sweeping. Let's not also forget steel types are a rare commodity in UU, with only 5 in the tier, one of them being Bisharp who isn't exactly a defensive titan. Ferroseed's grass typing also gives is a usefull resistance to water and nuetrality to ground (though to he fair, bronzong does have levitate). I still think Ferroseed is a B-rank mon based on the many matches I've played with him, but I can understand C-rank

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Yeah, Ferroseed is definitely C or D-Rank in my opinion...His good defensive typing and niche in setting up dual hazards is let down by the fact that most offensive threats will not hesitate to come in on it. Thunder Wave does annoy foes though, and can sometimes help you. I used it on a paralysis team and it did somewhat decently, lol. It's good at what it does, but I don't think it's super good in general.

Also despite its animation, it can't learn Rapid Spin. :'[

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

Yeah, Ferroseed is definitely C or D-Rank in my opinion...His good defensive typing and niche in setting up dual hazards is let down by the fact that most offensive threats will not hesitate to come in on it. Thunder Wave does annoy foes though, and can sometimes help you. I used it on a paralysis team and it did somewhat decently, lol. It's good at what it does, but I don't think it's super good in general.

Also despite its animation, it can't learn Rapid Spin. :'[

C-rank is probably best because it it easily one of the best pokemon for stall teams due to access to leech seed and stealth rocks and spikes, and all of that racks up quickly when adding in toxic damage if you're carrying that. Also doesn't make since that he can't use rapid spin, c'mon gamefreak, you're such a tease.

 

[KM]

I think you guys are underestimating Sableye's special bulk a little bit.

252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 185-218 (60.85 - 71.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 183-216 (60.19 - 71.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 152-179 (50 - 58.88%) -- 69.92% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 201-237 (66.11 - 77.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What I'm trying to say here is that other than Zapdos (which was probably a bad example), Sableye can effectively stall out the most common, strongest special attackers in the entire tier with a layer of toxic spikes or some burn spreading and then just spamming recover. I realize that 60-70% damage isn't exactly walling, but you have to realize that these are literally the strongest attacks in the entire tier. Night Shade is preferred over Foul Play purely because it's consistent damage against things that could otherwise be an absolute bitch against a stall-oriented sableye.

I'm not going to argue for him being able to take a Flare Blitz or a V-Create, but that's why you pair it with something like a Qwilfish for a sick defensive stall core. Besides,

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Being only 100% stopped by Victini/Darmanitan/Arcanine sort of qualifies as walling significant portions of the metagame. It's very rare that Sableye gives opponents free turns, and can almost always create free turns, which imo places it safely at a low A-Rank.

The only reason I'm arguing so hard for it is that I've played with it for a long, long time in many different teams and I find it to be ridiculously invaluable as a support poke, annoyer, spinblocker, hazard preventer, and threat eliminator.

 

[PTJon7]

Missed one:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 177-211 (58.22 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I honestly think this is only proving the point for Sableye for B-Rank, even with full investment it's 2HKOd by the most common special attackers of the tier. Any physical attacker would just run through it without and physical investment (obviously not counting W-o-W).

Pretty much any well built team will not have problems with Sableye, mine sure don't. Whether it be a physical attacker with a Lum Berry (or Shed Skin), a Fire type, or a special attacker Sableye can easily be dealt with the majority of the time.

Its not like Sableye is bad, its just not A-Rank worthy.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah, while Sableye can be a bitch to face at times, he is relatively easy to deal with. Roserade+Darmanitan cores in particular demolish Sableye for days, since his Will-O-Wisp is relatively useless against the core due to the former's Natural Cure and the latter being immune. Sableye is also pretty frail on the special side, as said before, meaning he can be dealt with with reasonably strong moves. Taunt+DD Scrafty with Shed Skin also could shit on Sableye, while Fire-types don't mind Sableye much at all. Don't get me wrong, Sableye is a great Pokemon that can annoy opponents with Taunt, burn, and recovery, which makes him Top B-Rank at least, but he's not worthy of being A-Rank atm.

Also those calc prove that Sableye is still a B-Rank Pokemon imo, agreeing with PTJon here.

 

[KM]

Not trying to belabour my point but I'll just have my final say and then leave the topic be ^.^

I'm not trying to say that Sableye walls the entire tier, I'm merely pointing out that with Hazard support he can effectively check/wear down the pokemon that you initially pointed out as being counters to Sableye. Everything in A and S Rank have a weakness, and I don't think "Togekiss can't be considered as a good physical wall because it can't take a SE" or whatever is a viable argument to saying it isn't a good poke.

I guess I should have gone about it differently and shown all the pokes that Sableye absolutely demolishes, but it's sort of harder to calc all that. I just think that something that can be absolutely game-central against stall and still a very useful utility/crippler poke against HO should be considered for A-rank.

As I said, I won't keep arguing my point because either I'm absolutely crazy or you guys are (and given that there are a lot more of you than there are of me, I imagine the former is the more likely), and I've argued my case as much as I can :P

 

[Ernesto]

Js that if you really wanna use SpD Sableye to deal with the big guns, you could technically run Snarl on it (I don't think I'd be willing to replace Foul Play, but it's still an option)... That said, I think B-rank is where it belongs, but it does have good things going for it to try to put it in A-rank.