I've already argued to have Tyranitar into S rank, but I'm going to go to opposite direction and ask how can Hippowdon be considered in the same rank as Tyranitar all things considered? They are very different pokemos indeed, but even with its own support options I think Hippowdon should be A at best, not A+. Thoughts?
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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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Well, Mienshao actually has an advantage over Terrakion: Regenerator. Unlike Terrakion, who cannot keep switching in and out, Mienshao has the perfect combination with U-Turn + Regenerator to make it a good scarfer. Mienshao can lure in mons like Gengar with threats of HJK and Turn out to get in a check like Alakazam, thus gaining momentum as Gengar is forced out which allows Zam to set up.
Another example would be Weavile, who can force out mons with threats of OHKO and can use the time to set up with SD and proceed to sweep.
Simply for this niche, Mienshao should be B+.
People say it is beaten by common Scarfers, but these scarfers need a chance to switch in which is not usually available with Mienshao.
Another example would be Weavile, who can force out mons with threats of OHKO and can use the time to set up with SD and proceed to sweep.
Simply for this niche, Mienshao should be B+.
People say it is beaten by common Scarfers, but these scarfers need a chance to switch in which is not usually available with Mienshao.
Alakazam is a check for Gengar? Lmao.
Weavile is seriously hampered by bullet punch & mach punch which are pretty darn common. Its not gonna sweep too often. A great Pokémon though, just not high tier IMO. Mienshao is in the same boat, dies from very common threats and its not worth the trouble.
Alakazam outspeeds and OHKOes Gengar so yes, you can say it's a check, particularly since Mienshao will have already broken a sash with any damage done by U-Turn.
How is Mienshao not worth the trouble? As I explained earlier, it's high risk yes but the reward is equally high because Mienshao can sweep teams with the right support.
I have no clue HOW MANY TIMES I'll have to repeat that the reason Mienshao does well as a Scarfer is U-Turn + Regenerator, allowing it recovery WITH momentum. Which other common scarfer can give you that? Tornadus-T which is now Uber.
How is Mienshao not worth the trouble? As I explained earlier, it's high risk yes but the reward is equally high because Mienshao can sweep teams with the right support.
I have no clue HOW MANY TIMES I'll have to repeat that the reason Mienshao does well as a Scarfer is U-Turn + Regenerator, allowing it recovery WITH momentum. Which other common scarfer can give you that? Tornadus-T which is now Uber.
In fact Alakazam is a check for Gengar since it outspeeds and KOs, but not a counter. (lol ninja'd)
Weavile is just too frail imo. It's weak to SR, weak to bullet punch, weak to Mach Punch and is super frail. Mamoswine does its job much better as it can switch into more things and has better bulk while not being weak to rocks.
Mienshao deserves B at least, IMO. It may be outclassed by Terrakion who has higher speed, but Mienshao performs different roles remarkably well. It can function as a scout with Fake Out and U-Turn, support the team with Baton Pass (don't laugh, SubPass is very legit) or just a straight out Reckless Scarfer dealing huge damage with HJK. It may be extremely frail but I think its versatility and offensive prowess make it capable for B at least.
Weavile is just too frail imo. It's weak to SR, weak to bullet punch, weak to Mach Punch and is super frail. Mamoswine does its job much better as it can switch into more things and has better bulk while not being weak to rocks.
Mienshao deserves B at least, IMO. It may be outclassed by Terrakion who has higher speed, but Mienshao performs different roles remarkably well. It can function as a scout with Fake Out and U-Turn, support the team with Baton Pass (don't laugh, SubPass is very legit) or just a straight out Reckless Scarfer dealing huge damage with HJK. It may be extremely frail but I think its versatility and offensive prowess make it capable for B at least.
I agree with this. But to say Weavile isn't B+ isnt a strech. It Pursuit traps and revenges dragons/genies. It kills the common ice shard wielders. Its hella fast (so it can use stronger STAB moves on non scarfers weak to ice or dark). Kills non scarf Terrakion, Gengar, Heatran, etc. Low b+ imo.
Plus nobody can do what Weavile can except Sneasel, and we all know that Sneasel is too weak to put up a fight,
Completely agree with victinivcreate1 here, Mamo is beaten hands down by the Eon duo and any dragon who outspeeds whereas Weavile can pursuit trap lots of stuff and can also outspeed a majority of the tier and beat the living daylights out of dragons.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 315-374 (97.22 - 115.43%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO
This is how good Weavile is. It deserves B+.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 315-374 (97.22 - 115.43%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO
This is how good Weavile is. It deserves B+.
Pursuit and Ice Shard have HUGE influence on the metagame. The reason why Dragonite never became Uber w/ Multiscale. Weavile can still revenge rather cleanly.
One of the MAIN reason why SpD Celebi started runnin Baton Pass to evade Pursuit from TTar.
one of the reason why people love CB Scizor so much, Technician Pursuit.
The reason why Mamoswine became OU and will likely stay that way.
One of the reasons why people love Volcarona (in addition to QD, good STABs, and bulk, resists the classic priorities, Mach Pawnch, Bullet Pawnch, and Ice Shard)
Why BP Celebi+Justified Lucario are such a potent pair, especially when Celebi BPs outta Pursuit from Tar.
Sorry about that, just I have LOADS of experience w/ Weavile. Weavile isnt a sweeper, its an offensive supporter.
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
Here are a few relevant things Weavile handles better than Mamoswine:
-Starmie
-Celebi
-Terrakion
-Gengar
Starmie is the most obvious one. Mamo won't like Scald or Hydro Pump and Starmie can take an EQ. Weavile Pursuit traps it and actually has enough special bulk to live through anything that isn't a boosted Hydro Pump.
Celebi is bulky enough to take an Ice Shard and retaliate with STAB Giga Drain/Leaf Storm. Offensive variants outspeed Mamo so Icicle Crash won't help. Weavile outspeeds and uses Night Slash/Ice Punch. If you predict a switch you can just Pursuit trap it too.
Terrakion outspeeds Mamo and has enough bulk to live past Ice Shard, while Weavile is faster and can use Low Kick against it.
Gengar can potentially screw Mamo over with the Disable set while the LO one OHKO's 70% of the time with Focus Blast. Weavile outspeeds it and Pursuit traps.
Weavile revenge kills ice weak targets almost as well as Mamo (its attack is only 5 points lower) with the exception of Dragonite because Extremespeed will KO after SR.
Against Lati@s Weavile is unquestionably better because it has Pursuit in addition to Ice Shard, giving it more options.
Yes, Weavile is frail as shit (which doesn't really matter when its job is trapping/revenge killing specific targets) and doesn't have Mamo's bulk or STAB EQ but other than Ice Shard they're nothing alike and play very differently.
Exception of Dragonite? Weavile is WAY better vs Drago because of Ice Punch that OHKOes even with Multiscale.
Couple of Calcs to support Weavile to B+:
1) Ferrothorn
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 179-213 (50.85 - 60.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
2) Heatran:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 307-361 (95.04 - 111.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
3)Tyranitar:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 437-515 (108.16 - 127.47%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4) Breloom:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 361-429 (137.78 - 163.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO
5) Latios:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 361-429 (119.93 - 142.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Out of the top ten mons in terms of usage Weavile outspeeds and beats Ferro, Dragonite, Heatran, Ttar, Breloom and Latios: a majority of the most used mons in the Top Ten(http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3482967)
It is for this reason only that Weavile should be B+
Roserade for C-Rank
To qualify as a good sweeper, I believe that the following are certain qualities necessary in the current metagame:
a) High speed OR good priority: With Roserade, while 90 base speed isn't bad, most of OU outspeeds it and Roserade has no form of priority to beat mons that are naturally faster than it
b) Good coverage: While the grass type is good as coverage, poison just sucks as an offensive typing. And together combined, looking at the LARGE NUMBERS of Dragon and Steel types, Roserade can't offer this
c) High attacking stats: Roserade does qualify here: 125 SpA is quite high
d) Ability to tank a hit: Most sweepers can tank EITHER special OR physical hits if not both. Roserade can't do either in OU. With 60/55 for physical, anything neutral does MASSIVE damage. More importantly though, a lot of the special attackers in OU happen to be Psychic types like Latios, Starmie and Alakazam which makes things bad because even if 105 SpD is good, those mons will still OHKO.
Couple of Calcs to support Weavile to B+:
1) Ferrothorn
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 179-213 (50.85 - 60.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
2) Heatran:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 307-361 (95.04 - 111.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
3)Tyranitar:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 437-515 (108.16 - 127.47%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4) Breloom:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 361-429 (137.78 - 163.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO
5) Latios:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 361-429 (119.93 - 142.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Out of the top ten mons in terms of usage Weavile outspeeds and beats Ferro, Dragonite, Heatran, Ttar, Breloom and Latios: a majority of the most used mons in the Top Ten(http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3482967)
It is for this reason only that Weavile should be B+
Roserade for C-Rank
To qualify as a good sweeper, I believe that the following are certain qualities necessary in the current metagame:
a) High speed OR good priority: With Roserade, while 90 base speed isn't bad, most of OU outspeeds it and Roserade has no form of priority to beat mons that are naturally faster than it
b) Good coverage: While the grass type is good as coverage, poison just sucks as an offensive typing. And together combined, looking at the LARGE NUMBERS of Dragon and Steel types, Roserade can't offer this
c) High attacking stats: Roserade does qualify here: 125 SpA is quite high
d) Ability to tank a hit: Most sweepers can tank EITHER special OR physical hits if not both. Roserade can't do either in OU. With 60/55 for physical, anything neutral does MASSIVE damage. More importantly though, a lot of the special attackers in OU happen to be Psychic types like Latios, Starmie and Alakazam which makes things bad because even if 105 SpD is good, those mons will still OHKO.
Two quick things: 1. You shouldn't be running Ice Punch on Weavile, since it was only ever really useful against Tornadus-T, which is no longer a threat. Night Slash / Ice Shard / Low Kick / Pursuit is the best set by far, since it allows you to handle Psychic types better, and the only thing Ice Punch hits that Night Slash doesn't is full health D-nite, which doesn't often happen thanks to SR. 2. Roserade isn't a sweeper, it's a slightly offensive Spiker/specially oriented Spiking Wall, so trying to categorize it as a spinner is useless. That being said, I totally support it being in C rank, since it's niche is very small, and though it is good at it, it's hard to be a Special Spiker in a tier where Lati@s run rampant.
Keep Weavile B-
Lower Roserade to C
I don't really watch this thread, but I decided to take a look and some of the placements seem seriously flawed.
Tyranitar's placement seems off. TTar's ability to be incredibly powerful on its own thanks to its equivalent 656 BST, as well as the overall simple utility of sand really should net it the same position as Politoed. Its ability take every other weather starter head-on (depending on set, obviously) and trap with Pursuit gives it an edge that should put it in S tier.
Also, what the hell is Kyurem-B doing in A+ when Dragonite is in A-? If anything, those two positions should be switched. Despite Kyurem's raw power, Dragonite is easily the best Physical Dragon in OU thanks to Multiscale. Lum DDNite with spinner support can be incredibly difficult to take down, while Kyurem-B struggles to survive due to its terrible typing.
I'm also going to argue that Gothitelle, despite its ability to Trap, is still so much of a wimp in this metagame. It's easily not as good as anything else in B+ tier (not even Dugtrio). It can't set up CM on anything. It can't kill anything before it gets killed except for some cases like specially frail walls like Skarmory and Forretress (who both get mauled by Magnezone anyways). The B tier seems more home to stuff that have great flaws that are offeset by great abilities.
I'll add one more to the list. Reuniclus might be falling off the face of the earth in OU usage, but it's not because it's bad. It faces fierce competition for team slots with other Psychics (Psychic is NOT a type you want to stack too much of) that dominate many niches of the metagame. Reuniclus is quite easily one of the best late game sweepers in the entire game, and something that turns games into free wins where anything else would be unable to thanks to Trick Room. It deserves a B+ position.
Tyranitar's placement seems off. TTar's ability to be incredibly powerful on its own thanks to its equivalent 656 BST, as well as the overall simple utility of sand really should net it the same position as Politoed. Its ability take every other weather starter head-on (depending on set, obviously) and trap with Pursuit gives it an edge that should put it in S tier.
Also, what the hell is Kyurem-B doing in A+ when Dragonite is in A-? If anything, those two positions should be switched. Despite Kyurem's raw power, Dragonite is easily the best Physical Dragon in OU thanks to Multiscale. Lum DDNite with spinner support can be incredibly difficult to take down, while Kyurem-B struggles to survive due to its terrible typing.
I'm also going to argue that Gothitelle, despite its ability to Trap, is still so much of a wimp in this metagame. It's easily not as good as anything else in B+ tier (not even Dugtrio). It can't set up CM on anything. It can't kill anything before it gets killed except for some cases like specially frail walls like Skarmory and Forretress (who both get mauled by Magnezone anyways). The B tier seems more home to stuff that have great flaws that are offeset by great abilities.
I'll add one more to the list. Reuniclus might be falling off the face of the earth in OU usage, but it's not because it's bad. It faces fierce competition for team slots with other Psychics (Psychic is NOT a type you want to stack too much of) that dominate many niches of the metagame. Reuniclus is quite easily one of the best late game sweepers in the entire game, and something that turns games into free wins where anything else would be unable to thanks to Trick Room. It deserves a B+ position.
I can't see Weavile moving up higher than it is just because all of you are failing to mention how prediction reliant it is. Pursuit trapping works with CBtar and CB Scizor because they can't be LO stalled. However, I've been in numerous positions where I've been able to Recover stall LO Pursuit damage and predict the incoming Night Slash to switch out.
I know prediction goes both ways, but unlike CB Scizor and CBtar, which can't be Recover stalled by Latias (aka Latias has to switch out), Weavile needs prediction. This isn't just Latias, but Starmie too.
Keep Weavile in B-.
I know prediction goes both ways, but unlike CB Scizor and CBtar, which can't be Recover stalled by Latias (aka Latias has to switch out), Weavile needs prediction. This isn't just Latias, but Starmie too.
Keep Weavile in B-.
On Tyranitar: The problem with Tyranitar is that sand really isn't that great of support; rather, many Pokemon on Tyranitar's team simply have to put up with it because they appreciate his ability to Pursuit annoying Pokemon. The occasional Sand Force Landorus and Sand Rush Stoutland like sand, but that's it. Compared to the multitude of Pokemon that benefit from Politoed's rain, the two just don't even compare.
On Dragonite: Is it just me, or does Dragonite suck? Okay, "suck" is a harsh word, but he's certainly not worth all the hullabaloo. Yes, his attack is nice and his bulk is nice, but he's frustratingly slow and his bulk, and Multiscale itself, is seriously compromised by his SR weakness. And don't just say "lol rapid spin," spinning in OU is a difficult task at best considering the offensive nature of the metagame and the poor quality of many spinners (Tentacruel and Starmie are cool though). A- is fine.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 198-234 (75.57 - 89.31%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
Or after 4 switches of SR, or oen switch into 3 layers of spikes Breloom is KOed by the shards of ice.
Breloom is slower than Weavile so Ice Shard would hit first. Sorry, Breloom is likely to lose against Weavile
Asek
Banned deucer.
Weavile is a really bad answer to any fully offensive Dragonite because assuming Dragonite is 252 Attack Adamant nature like it should be, +1 Extremespeed does 72.31 - 85.12% to a 32HP Weavile. Remeber that E Speed has prio over Ice shard and you can see that at least Mamoswine can revenge a Multiscale broken Dragonite, something Weavile can't do (once again assuming the above conditions). I don't really see Weavile going up to B+ considering its really niche and is only good for a very small amount of teams
I wouldn't say it's "likely", especially since Breloom resists Rocks and can switch in multiple times, whereas Weavile can only switch in four times MAXIMUM with Rocks on the field. The most likely outcome, is, in fact, Breloom winning, since Weavile will be reluctant to switch out after Mach Punch. And, since Weavile can't OHKO with Ice Shard, Breloom can afford to just Spore, so even if you switch out instead of using Ice Shard, something will be essentially taken out with Spore.
I disagree strongly on the first point. Kyurem-B should rarely be used as a primarily physical dragon. It is by far and way the best mixed sweeper in OU. Even if it is outclassed somewhat physically by Garchomp and Dragonite, neither have as much capability to go mixed as Kyurem-B. Factor in Kyurem-B's wall worthy bulk and it becomes near impossible to take down, especially behind a sub. I do agree Dragonite should be A at least, but Kyurem-B more than deserves its A+.
I agree with Gothitelle. It's just weak as shit. Anything that needs to boost as soon as it traps something just doesn't seem worth using. I can't really see any advantages it might have over Magnezone, Dugtrio or Wobbuffet. It's slow and weak, and it is fairly bulky, but its not switching into Terrakions Stone Edges or Keldeo's Hydro Pumps any time soon. Not to mention the less than stellar typing.
The deal with gothitelle is, its a team specific pokemon. The moves, stat spread and nature for your gothitelle depends on what your team needs. Need to kill steel types? HP fire. Need to kill fighting types? Psyshock. Need to kill water types? Thunderbolt. Need to kill ground types? HP ice. Having trouble with celebi? Signal beam. And so on. The ev spread can be changed to either a bulkier one to better deal with stuff that outspeed you regardless like scarf terrakion or to a faster one to outspeed some walls like celebi. Gothitelle is not a pokémon you can just throw in a team. It needs to be used to deal with specific threats. Its really niche but the same can be said about almost everything in B-Rank. Keep it there.
Having used Weavile a lot, i can say without a doubt that although it has a fantastic niche as a revenge killer and trapper, nearly every well constructed team has a solid counter to it. Scizor and Keldeo are extremely common, and can switch into any attack Weavile dishes out, and u-turn out for momentum in the case of scizor or fire off insanely strong STABs in Keldeo's case. Used correctly, weavile is excellent in its role and others have already listed the amount of pokemon it beats 1v1. SR weakness and common counters mean that it should stay in B-
Weavile should be B rank, maybe even B+. Stop saying Mamoswine outclasses it, because it's not true. Sure Mamo and Weavile both have Ice Shard, and Mamo might have higher attack and earthquake, but it doesn't have Pursuit and Low Kick. Mamo can't beat Terrakion, Starmie, Gengar, Celebi or Jellicent. Pretty much all of Weavile's counters beat Mamo too(Scizor - Bullet Punch, Keldeo, Conkeldurr - Mach Punch, Volcarona(which isn't even a counter to weavile), all bulky waters, 100% Breloom who can take an Ice Shard).
Weavile is one of the most anti-metagame Pokemon and is really underrated.
Weavile is one of the most anti-metagame Pokemon and is really underrated.
Kyurem-B is definitely A+ material. It's perhaps the most difficult thing for stall to deal with right now, whether its simply rampaging through everything with CB Outrage or using its impressive mixed capabilities to break down the common stall cores. I find myself having to use weird shit like Scarf Jirachi and even Scizor in order to make viable stall teams these days. However all of its flaws (vulnerability to priority, average Speed, SR weakness etc) keep it out of S rank.
No, I do not think Weavile is that good of a sweeper like you say
Firstly, Weavile is extremely frail and that cannot be overstated. Almost any form of priority will bring it to extremely low HP. The fact that it's weak to every form of entry hazard, uses Life Orb and with Sand's prevalence, means that Weavile is worn down far too easily, especially when so many things threaten and forces it to switch if it predicts wrongly. Weavile suffering from minor 4MSS exacerbates this -- it needs to run Pursuit and Ice Shard for its niche, if it doesn't run Night Slash its walled of the opponent doesn't switch, if it doesn't run Brick Break then Steels screw it up and if it doesn't run Swords Dance its power isn't enough. Its attack stat is good but it misses out on OHKOs most of the time. Weavile's low bulk essentially means KO or be KOd. This forces it to switch out more often on anything that walls it, or is bulky enough to take hits. It can't even run choice band sets effectively as it will be played around too easily, and it can't set up Swords Dance effectively because it will be hard pressed to find time to set up since powerful resisted hits still take a chunk off it. Finally, the large amount of priority in the metagame -- look at Dragonite, Lucario, Conkeldurr, Scizor, etc. -- means that Weavile will often be killed before it does its job.
What I meant was that as an Ice Shard revenger, its outclassed by Mamo and as a Pursuit trapper is outclassed by Scizor and Ttar, all of which can survive a hit and retaliate. Weavile is like a jack of two trades but master of none kind of guy.
Firstly, Weavile is extremely frail and that cannot be overstated. Almost any form of priority will bring it to extremely low HP. The fact that it's weak to every form of entry hazard, uses Life Orb and with Sand's prevalence, means that Weavile is worn down far too easily, especially when so many things threaten and forces it to switch if it predicts wrongly. Weavile suffering from minor 4MSS exacerbates this -- it needs to run Pursuit and Ice Shard for its niche, if it doesn't run Night Slash its walled of the opponent doesn't switch, if it doesn't run Brick Break then Steels screw it up and if it doesn't run Swords Dance its power isn't enough. Its attack stat is good but it misses out on OHKOs most of the time. Weavile's low bulk essentially means KO or be KOd. This forces it to switch out more often on anything that walls it, or is bulky enough to take hits. It can't even run choice band sets effectively as it will be played around too easily, and it can't set up Swords Dance effectively because it will be hard pressed to find time to set up since powerful resisted hits still take a chunk off it. Finally, the large amount of priority in the metagame -- look at Dragonite, Lucario, Conkeldurr, Scizor, etc. -- means that Weavile will often be killed before it does its job.
What I meant was that as an Ice Shard revenger, its outclassed by Mamo and as a Pursuit trapper is outclassed by Scizor and Ttar, all of which can survive a hit and retaliate. Weavile is like a jack of two trades but master of none kind of guy.
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