np: RU stage 16 - Ding Dong The Witch is Dead

[Molk]

Agreeing with DittoCrow that Spikes are really effective in this metagame, and that many common Spikes setters are starting to become better and better with the advent of the new metagame. These days i'm pretty sure the majority of my best RU teams have at least one way to lay down Spikes, whether it be Qwilfish, Ferroseed, Smeargle, Roselia, or a totally different niche Spikes setter such as Cacturne. Like i believe i mentioned in some of my earlier posts here, i've really fallen in love with Ferroseed in particular lately, it might not be the most powerful when it comes to offense, but that Grass/Steel typing and good mixed bulk is a true blessing, and Ferro's exceptionally good at crippling potential switch ins to it with a combination of Leech Seed and Thunder Wave. What's by far my favorite part about Ferroseed, though, is that it matches up exceptionally well against both the good Spinners DittoCrow mentioned: Kabutops and Cryogonal. It hard counters the former while wearing it down from a combination of Life Orb recoil and Iron Barbs, and can OHKO the other with Gyro Ball if it ever dares to switch in, all the while punishing the opponent for attempting to pull off a Rapid Spin with Iron Barbs.

As for Rapid Spinners, has anyone tried out Shell Smash Torkoal as a potential Spinner? It seems like a pretty effective option on paper, having the physical bulk to set up a Shell Smash, and the power to 2HKO all the Ghost-types at worst after a boost while outspeeding all of them except for offensive Rotom at +2 despite its abysmal Speed stat (who gets OHKO'd by +0 Fire Blast on the switch after Stealth Rock damage). It's probably not as good as Kabutops and Cryogonal, as its grounded, has a lack of reliable recovery, and possesses a weakness to Stealth Rock, but i could see it being a decent option, and its certainly better than at least Sandslash imo, maybe thats just me though.

Torkoal set

Torkoal @ White Herb
Trait: White Smoke
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Fire Blast
- Rapid Spin
- Earth Power

Torkoal damage calcs

Offensive:

+2 252+ SpA Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 300-354 (99 - 116.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Spiritomb: 241-285 (79.27 - 93.75%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 246-291 (75.92 - 89.81%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Rotom: 201-237 (83.05 - 97.93%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 156 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 388-457 (108.37 - 127.65%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defensive:

0 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 102-120 (36.29 - 42.7%) -- 88.28% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Torkoal: 127-150 (45.19 - 53.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Torkoal: 64-76 (22.77 - 27.04%) -- 43.07% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Torkoal: 120-142 (42.7 - 50.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

For the Foul Play damage calc, Torkoal could minimize its attack stat to take less from the attack if that doesnt look like a comfortable damage range

So what do you think?

 

[ss234]

I agree 100% that spikes are really, really good in the current metagame. So many huge threats become so much easier to break with spikes and sr, and having an extra layer is so incredibly useful against defensive teams, making it so much easier to break through pokes such as lanturn, poliwrath and steelix to name a few. I'm really liking smeargle in this metagame, and I use it on p much all of my non-hail teams, since getting a layer of spikes is just so useful. Spore is also very handy to neuter dangerous pokes and stop more defensive leads from getting sr up early game, which is something pokes such as uxie fail to do. Other spikers such as qwilfish, roselia and ferroseed are also much better than they were before previously as nidoqueen checked all three of them quite easily. Because spikes and sr can rack up damage so quickly, I often find myself running kabutops, as it can eliminate entry hazards from your side, making it much easier to check pokes continually throughout a match. Tops also checks some p huge threats, such as moltres, typhlosion, swellow, entei etc. and is generally a very good sweeper with SD.

Here is one poke which I think is really very underrated in the current metagame:

Aggron @ Life Orb
Trait: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Heavy Slam
- Head Smash
- Low Kick

Aggron is a damn cool poke in the current metagame imo, and really benefited from nidoqueen leaving as queen could sponge a head smash quite comfortably, and the fact that the tier is now slower in general is also a big boon for aggron, as it is a very deadly stall-breaker due to the ridiculous power of head smash, and the fact that CB low kick 2HKO's steelix. Although CB hits so ridiculously hard, my favourite set in the current metagame is the rp set. Most teams have severe difficulty switching into aggron, due to head smash's insane power, which is where rock polish comes in. This makes aggron p much impossible to revenge kill without using a choice scarfer if it can set-up, as aggron doesn't take much damage from common priority attacks-kabutops aqua jet doesn't 2HKO at full health and chan mach punch doesn't 1HKO at full health either. This makes aggron a great late-game sweeper as long as you can set-up. Aggron doesn't need the +2 boost to be particularly threatening however-LO head smash still hits very, very hard, and most pokes outside of dedicated physical walls(tangrowth, poliwrath, steelix etc.)face being 1 or 2HKO'd. Another cool thing about aggron is that it checks quite a few top threats-escavalier, druddigon locked into outrage, non-hp fighting sigilyph, blizzspammers, spiritomb, defensive uxie, swellow and cinncino are just a few common threats that aggron can check and start dealing huge damage or set-up with rock polish. Overall, I think aggron is a p great pokemon in the current metagame due to these qualities.

 

[Explorer]

In terms of spinners, we are not stuck with Sandslash (yuck), Cryogonal, and Kabutops (and Torkoal), as we have Armaldo!!!

Armaldo has a good typing without many common weaknesses, has good defenses, has great coverage (better than any other spinner), and of course, has Rapid Spin. Armaldo's stats are also balanced enough that it can be an offensive spinner or a defensive spinner. It also has Stealth Rock, EdgeQuake, three boosting moves, and STAB X-Scissor (great for Uxie and friends). Is the only reason why this is barely used in RU is that it's NU?

Here is one set:

Armaldo (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 SpD
Nature: Careful
-Stealth Rock
-Rapid Spin
-X-Scissor/Curse/Iron Defense
-Stone Edge

This is specially defensive Armaldo that can tank a surprisingly large number of neutral hits with the right defensive investment. Armaldo, unlike Cryogonal, has Stealth Rocks and no Fighting weakness, while it lacks the Grass and Ground weaknesses Kabutops has. Even without much attack investment, Armaldo can still do a number on Spiritomb and Uxie (bye bye Cofagrigus), and can manage nearly any non-SE neutral non-boosted Special Attack (many of which nail Kabutops, Cryogonal, Sandslash, or Torkoal).

Let me also comment that Nidoqueen's Sheer Force would break through Armaldo pretty easily, even with only neutral attacks (Nidoqueen with Hidden Power Steel LOL), so Nidoqueen's ban is a favor for Armaldo (and the other spinners).

 

[mkizzy]

Armaldo, unfortunately, is not an optimal spinner (or Pokemon, for that matter) in the current state of RU. It's pretty much outclassed by Kabutops offensively and by Cryogonal defensively, and those two are both a bit easier to fit on teams. However if you'd want to use Armaldo for whatever reason you definitely would not want to run Iron Defense or Curse on it, considering that these two are both worse than Swords Dance (Iron Defense isn't good on any Pokemon, really.) Armaldo also has the disadvantage of losing to every viable spinblocker in the tier, being burned by Spiritomb, and just flat out losing to mons like Misdreavus and Golurk. Cryogonal has the benefit of having Recover, while being able to take more Specially orientated hits than Armaldo due to that high stat (Armaldo isn't anything more than average, bulk wise.) Also a point you mentioned which is just inaccurate is that Armaldo's typing is not valuable at all, not having many desirable resists (just resisting the huge Poison moves and Normal moves!) Kabutops, however, has a lot more useful resists including Fire (double resist !_!), Flying, and Ice, all these are extremely good resists to have while resisting Poison is not a momentous feat. All in all, Armaldo is viable I guess but definitely outclassed by both Kabutops and Cryogonal (and maybe even Sandslash.)
p.s: Queen wasn't banned, it just moved up due to usage in UU.

 

[august]

hmmm i agree with dc on most things. kabutops and cryo are definitely the best spinners, but unfortuneately cryo in particular is not very good... some of his niches are definitely nice, like being able to act as a solid hail check and being able to stall out last mon CMers with haze (most of the time xD) however i think for the most part, defensive cryo really only has a place on stall... the free turns that defensive cryo constantly gives can be very hard to play back from if you make a mistake but the backbone of stall / a very defensive team is usually enough to fall back on. offensive cryo on the other hand is faster and therefore able to spin easier (usually) but on the downside its physical defense is piss poor and it dies from anything... i also find it to be a lackluster offensive ice type overall so thats barely a reason to use it

kabutops on the other hand is still good, but i think the sd lum berry set is much better these days than the old lo sd spin set simply because spikes are so much more common now and kabutops cant afford to get worn down. it also saves it from will o wisps and toxic spikes and scald burns which could be otherwise very detrimental. ironically, kabutops is my favorite spinner on hail teams (although i use waterfall > sd) because of the added fire resist and insurance vs moltres.. kabutops is never too hard to fit on a team as opposed to cryo so thats definitely what makes it the best spinner. the common non-ghost switch ins like wrath and rotom-c can be dealt with much easier than the likes of cb escavalier that like to switch into cryo.

the only thing i disagree with is that i think toxic spikes is good now. with toxic spikes, cryo can now stall out offensive pursuit tomb that doesnt run rest, which trust me is a beautiful thing. although you probably dont think about it too much, a good deal of offensive teams choose to forego a grounded poison type now. qwilfish fits on offensive teams, but is generally used more on defensive teams. amoongus and roselia are also usually seen on more defensive teams as well. on the other hand, toxic spikes allows you to get that extra 12% per turn on the likes of cincinno, drud, magmortar, sceptile, and every other grounded mon in the tier. the common flying pkmn and levitators can be dealt with other ways (sr comes to mind). ive been using sash scolipede and lead garbodor a fair amount and i can honestly say that there are teams where i'd much rather lay 1 layer of tspikes and a layer of spikes that outright laying 2 layers of spikes.. but yea tspikes are definitely much better than they get credit for at times

 

[Molk]

Druddigon

Druddigon has cemented itself as one of the best Pokemon in the tier within the past few months, and its easy to see why. BW2 gave Druddigon, who was already a good Pokemon back then, many important buffs that just brought its viability to the next level. giving it many new moves to utilize Sheer Force with, such as Fire Punch, as well as the coveted Stealth Rock, turning Druddigon into a versatile and powerful threat that should always be considered when building a team. My favorite Druddigon set is the bulky Stealth Rock set, which can reliably set up Stealth Rock and uses its great bulk and Dragon-type to check/counter many common threats such as Entei, Emboar, Sceptile, Lilligant, Rotom-C, and Manectric with ease, while still posing a significant offensive threat with its Dragon STAB, priority, and great base 120 Attack stat. I know there are quite a few other effective Druddigon sets though, such as Choice Band, Substitute+3 Attacks, and even Mixed!

Heres an import of the set i'm using at the moment, by the way :).

Manly Mon

Druddigon @ Leftovers
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Outrage
- Sucker Punch
- Earthquake

So whats do you use on Druddigon, what effect do you think Drudd's buffs have had on the metagame? What teammates work well with Druddigon, and what do you use to deal with it? Its certainly a big threat.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah Druddigon is truly amazing in this metagame. it has an amazing typing, both defensively and offensively, great stats bar Speed, and overall incredible utility, especially in BW2 (I mean seriously, the BW2 boons to Drudd made it go from trying desperately to not be NU into a top RU Pokemon). My favorite Druddigon set so far is CB Druddigon; after I usually start up the match by having Scolipede lay down the Spikes, Druddigon can wreck opponents with the absurd power only endurable by Steels, and any KO it could potentially miss out on I usually patch up with Scolipede's Spikes. (and Scoli has a nice STAB Megahorn to wear down Uxie, which really helps). One of the better teammates I have found for Druddigon is Magneton; Magneton traps Steels, the only things that can really keep Druddigon from destroying shit, and Specs Magneton can nail Aggron and Klinklang with Thunderbolt while smashing Escavalier, Steelix, and Ferroseed with HP Fire. He also has Volt Switch to get Druddigon in safely; MagneDrudd is a pretty awesome core in RU imo. Setting up TR also helps Druddigon, the Psychic-types viable in the tier can certainly do that well. As for dealing with Druddigon, I usually run stuff like Ice Beam Mesprit to wear down Druddigon or better yet, I also like running Steelix or Escavalier to come in on Druddigon locked into Outrage and put it out of commission.

 

[Explorer]

Although Molk's set is great, I find another set to also be very appealing:

Druddigon (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def
Nature: Impish
-Stealth Rock
-Glare
-Dragon Tail
-Sucker Punch

This Druddigon has probably been one of the most successful leads in RU for me, as it gives the all-important rocks, as well as phazing, paralysis, and priority, all in one package. It doesn't hit as hard as the other set given by Molk, but the chip damage will add up quickly. Glare also compensates for Drudddigon's poor speed, and is a great move for Druddigon to utilize as a result.

My favorite partner for this Druddigon is probably Choice Band Emboar, as they synergize together well, and few Pokemon love paralysis support as much as CB Emboar. CB Emboar also singlehandedly destroys many common Pokemon on Hail teams such as Snover, Cryogonal, Walrein, and opposing Druddigon, with either Flare Blitz or Superpower, and it resists Ice Beam/Blizzard. It also absorbs burns for Druddigon, which is a welcome bonus. The Stealth Rocks that Druddigon provides can get Emboar an extra KO here or there.

The Emboar set I use is this:

Emboar (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spe
Nature: Adamant
-Flare Blitz
-Superpower
-Stone Edge
-Wild Charge

The two STABs are absolute wrecking balls as long as Emboar survives to land a hit, which is much easier with Druddigon. Stone Edge > Head Smash in my opinion because the recoil adds up too quickly, and Stone Edge already has plenty of power. Wild Charge is for a small handful of things that are uncommon and is a filler. I suppose Earthquake could be used here.

Here is another Emboar set that I've grown fond of:

Emboar (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 SpA
Nature: Lonely/Brave
-Flare Blitz
-Superpower
-Stone Edge
-Scald

This set allows Emboar to switch moves. The first three slots are identical to the first set, but Scald is a nasty surprise move that allows Emboar to easily plow through Rhydon, plus the burn rate is welcome in most cases. Even without Choice Band, Pokemon such as Cryogonal, Ferroseed, and Escavalier are all destroyed.

In conclusion, either set works best with a supporter such as Druddigon.

 

[DittoCrow]

VoltTurn

Just want to talk about VoltTurn since this playstyle just got better and is very deadly in tandem with hazards. VoltTurn is a hard playstyle to pull off, but with Nidoqueen leaving, who was immune to Volt Switch and resisted U-turn, some users of the move just got a lot better. Manectric has been one to rise in usage lately, probably because we lost a really common check to it. Galvantula, Primeape, and Scyther got a bit better as well. Even having 1-3 Pokemon with Volt Switch/U-turn will annoy the opponent, as it is easy to gain momentum and will cause your opponent to switch out often, which is why this strategy pairs so well with Spikes and Stealth Rock. Of course other users such as Uxie, Rotom-C, and Cinccino are still good, but there are more options now imo. I haven't had much experience with this strategy yet but I've played against it a bit and it did give me some trouble. So what do you guys think about VoltTurn? Specifically, what are some good Pokemon to use and how do you deal with it?

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

VoltTurn imo is an awesome strategy now with Nidoqueen leaving the tier, especially with the abusers available.. I have been running a VoltTurn team that I love using right now, with Sash Scolipede as a lead to set up fast Spikes early in the match while dealing solid amounts of damage with the other moves to weaken some of the opponent's Pokemon. My VoltTurn core consists of Scarf Manectric, Scarf Primeape, and Scarf Mesprit, constantly U-turning and Volt Switching to hell and back, putting the opponent under a lot of pressure especially with the Spikes Scolipede has set up wearing down the switches they force, and the three also have nice synergy, with Mesprit being immune to the Ground moves Manectric is terrified of, while Manectric and Primeape have awesome offensive synergy together, only Golurk not minding their moves. Manectric's access to Lightningrod also helps absorb Thunder Waves that Primeape and Mesprit may despise, while also giving it the extra hurt of its Volt Switch. I use a Spiritomb to spinblock while I just wrap it up with Druddigon to provide a switch-in to things while taking advantage of the pressure VoltTurn provides. It's been pretty fun to use and yeah VoltTurn has gotten better overall imo. As for dealing with VoltTurn, Golurk is a pretty good bet, as he resists u-turn and is immune to Volt Switch, although repeated onslaughts may take their toll. Electivire could be a funny bet too if you're looking to stop Manectric. Anyways, just my thoughts on VoltTurn.

 

[Molk]

Hmmmm.... I've played around with Volturn a bit, i agree thats its certainly more effective without Nidoqueen around, and its definitely annoying to face if you're not prepared x___x. Anyways, here's a cool example of a Pokemon that helps volturn teams greatly, its not the best Pokemon overall, and its certainly not top tier, but i find its unique support invaluable for RU Volturn teams.

Natu @ Eviolite
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Bold Nature
- Reflect
- Night Shade / Toxic
- U-turn
- Roost

Because Volturn teams naturally find themselves switching around a lot, given the nature of the moves these kinds of teams are built around, a way to remove entry hazards is pretty much a requirement for any Volturn team that wants to be successful imo. Kabutops and Cryogonal make great Rapid Spinners, but taking up a turn to Rapid Spin kills some of your momentum, which a Volturn team doesn't appreciate at all. So how do you keep hazards off the field you ask? With Natu of course!

Natu's Magic Bounce ability means it can stop many of the common hazard setters, such as Qwilfish, Smeargle, and Ferroseed, from doing their job without taking a turn to Rapid Spin: it stops them from reliably setting hazards simply by being on your team! As a plus, the hazards are actually bounced back at the opponent, meaning any attempt to spikestack against a Volturn team with Natu will just backfire immensely. Furthermore, Volturn is capable of Using U-turn itself, meaning it has no problem keeping up the Volturn chain if needed.

As for the specific set itself, Reflect Natu is designed to stop as many hazard setters as possible, while also staying alive as long as possible to do its job. Reflect might seem a bit strange to some of you because of the lack of Light Screen or even a Light Clay to extend the duration, but Reflect comes in handy quite a bit for me, letting me set up a quick Reflect against some of the slower, more powerful physical attackers that might be able to overwhem Natu otherwise, such as Druddigon, then wear them down over time with Night Shade or Toxic while keeping myself healthy with Roost. Night Shade is there over something like another screen to make sure Natu isn't absolute set up bait, although Toxic can be used instead to cripple walls more easily, and Natu wouldn't suffer from being Tauntbait, as Magic Bounce reflects taunt away.

So what do you think?

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

For some reason, I just really haven't had any success with Manectric in particular lately, despite Nidoqueen not being around anymore. My issue with it is that it just really can't hit hard after it pulls off any momentum, meaning it really serves more as a pivot and a lackluster revenge killer. I tried Choice Scarf Manectric and it just really didn't do much aside from use Volt Switch, only doing like 75% to frail stuff like Cinccino with Thunderbolt. It also has some 4MSS that is troubling to deal with (Volt Switch, Flamethrower, HP Grass, Thunderbolt, and Switcheroo). There is also Druddigon, a Pokemon that is on the rise, which has a somewhat easy time taking hits from Manectric, and can shrug off Volt Switch damage, and it is also nearly impossible to switch in because so many threats OHKO it. Also, Volt Switch is so predictable on Manectric to the point where I can safetly switch in Steelix or Golurk just because I know exactly what it is doing. Manectric has, in my opinion, just lost effectiveness if only due to the evolution of the metagame.

As for dealing with VoltTurn, slapping a Choice Band on something really strong has worked out for me. When put up in the face of threats bulky, powerful such as Emboar, Entei, Druddigon, or Escavalier, they have to switch into a more defensive Pokemon and be forced to take a hit, as U-turn users and Volt Switch users like to go first. Some Pokemon, such as the ones listed above, plow through even defensive walls with their sheer power. Of course, Qwilfish (which I have seen in so many of my battles to the point where I put Crawdaunt on my team because it sets up on it easily, and I can almost expect the opponent to have Qwilfish on their team. No kidding.) is a good Pokemon to take a lot of these things, and Spikes helps wear down these offensive beasts.

Of course, this is just me playing against VoltTurn, because I don't think I have ever used that playstyle because I'm bad with keeping momentum.

 

[Demist]

Hopping back into RU after a short pause, I really like the new metagame. With Nidoqeen gone a lot of Pokemon, playstyles and new sets regained/gained potential.

Bulky Offensive is undoubtedly the best playstyle in this tier. As mentioned, hazards, in particular, Spikes seem to be very reliable and helpful hazard, allowing to wear out so many threatening or plainly annoying(aka. never fainting) Pokemon. In addition, RU has quite an choice when it comes to hazard setters, be it offensive and fast teams (Accelgor, Scolipede), bulky teams (Qwilpfish, Crustle) or full stall teams (Ferroseed).

Yet another thing I like in this new RU is that there's balance between Rapid Spinners and Spinblockers. What I mean here is that RU Spinners and Spinblockers share a well distribution between each other. A variety of Spinners fit into different teams, as a variety of Spinblockers do. As for a Pokemon and individual sets I must say that Spikes + Kangaskhan is such a sweet combination that I have been loving so far. Apparently, forcing switches in RU is fairly easy, from my experience, while maintaining your hazards/managing to spin/spinblock requires fair intelligence and understanding of the metagame. Anyway, here are few rather unused/unexpected sets/Pokemon:

Hide

Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Roost
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Kangaskhan (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch

Tangrowth @ Choice Specs
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SAtk / 144 Spd
Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Sleep Powder

From what I have found, bulky Pokemon with exploitable power are awesomely good. Specs Tangrowth is really interesting and funny Pokemon to use on more bulky teams, as people rarely suspect that, however the sheer power + ability to just switch and regain 1/3 of your health is what makes it so good.

I have been using Kangaskhan on a Spikestacking team, where it proved to be godly. Only the Scarppy itself makes Kangaskhan a pure pain of stopping, especially if you manage to lay down hazards and control momentum time from time. Another trait that truly shined is the actual durability of it. While recoil and Life Orb damage takes its toll quite fast, Kanga was able to live a hit here and there, which proved to be very usable.

Lastly, there is SubRoost Offensive Aerodactyl. Another Pokemon and set as well that I have used to huge success. Aerodactyl's speed tier and attack stat is really what makes him special. It is able to outspeed and threaten so much of the metagame that I found it quite shocking. Substitute has been providing me a shelter from unwanted status and the fact that the offensive pressure of it forces so many switches was quite helpful of getting those free turns to either set up a Sub or Roost. Another good thing about Aerodactyl is its ability pressure, which allows to stall out some of low PP moves, such as Hydro Pumps, Stone Edges and so on.

So, what do you people think about those? What are your experiences with these or other similar Pokemon/sets?

Lastly, I have been seeing Offensive Sigilyph and CM Clefable as a fairly prominent Pokemon in this new metagame. What is your opinion on those two?

EDIT: Yay! My 300th post is something decent :o

 

[DittoCrow]

I agree with Molk and think that Natu is definitely viable on VoltTurn teams. While I don't think it's that good because it has common weaknesses and no offensive presence, I do think that it has a niche on VoltTurn teams. These teams will usually face an opponent who is desperately trying to set hazards to slow down the combo, so Natu will usually get a few more chances to switch in. Because Natu will likely have an easier time switching vs an opponent who needs hazards up, it allows Natu to set up screens or keep the momentum with U-turn. I've seen people run both screens on Natu, which is extremely annoying on a VoltTurn team and a very tough strategy to break. Another move that Natu can use is Thunder Wave. This aids slower Volt Switch / U-turn users without a Scarf such as Eelektross, Mesprit, and Lanturn as well as late-game sweepers.

I definitely think that Druddigon is a major pain for VoltTurn teams; because it resists most of the STABs of the Pokemon using Volt Switch, hurts U-turn users with Rough Skin, and sets up Stealth Rock. Good VoltTurn teams can probably deal with this sort of thing though, as if the strategy is in motion, bulky Pokemon such as the aforementioned Druddigon and Escavalier will be facing a Rotom-C one second and then faced with Aggron the next. This will, however, break the momentum since something like Aggron can be forced out, so I do agree with Swamp-Rocket's points.

@Demist: I disagree that there is a variety of spinners. Only Kabutops is really good in RU, and besides that the only other one I would consider is Cryogonal. I do agree that Kangaskhan is really good in tandem with Spikes though. I haven't used Aerodactyl or Tangrowth recently, but I'm guessing that Specs Tangrowth is really, really good. I remember it was a beast back in June '12, and it probably has an easier time in this stage due to Nidoqueen leaving, which I mentioned in my post about Grass-types. A Specs Leaf Storm is very unexpected like you said, and Tangrowth still has enough bulk to switch in against things on offensive teams like Feraligatr. I have faced a few and it was kinda frustrating haha, just like Specs Slowking which I also previously mentioned :>.

 

[DittoCrow]

Hail​

I think all of the previous topics have been wrapped up, so I want to shift the discussion to something that I feel is surprisingly unexplored: hail. Hail has been seeing very little usage, especially since it was suspected. The April stats show that only 4.5% of teams were hail teams, and it looks like that will be even lower this month. Hail is the only auto-weather in RU, and I'm surprised that it isn't being taken advantage of more often. Is there a reason for that? Let's discuss!

Here are some topics to start you off:

• Types of teams:
  • Hail Stall - usually consists of wearing down the opponent with hail and hazards as well as (usually) utilizing StallRein
  • BlizzSpam - the offense of hail
  • Balance - mix between BlizzSpammers and defensive threats
  • SubProtect - teams with multiple Ice Body Pokemon designated to stalling a Pokemon's PP or health with hail

• Counters to hail teams
  • Are they common enough to make hail teams hard to use?

• Strategies
  • What are the best Pokemon or combinations of Pokemon to use on hail teams?
  • Is there a combination(s) that make hail potentially broken?

In the Stage 13 vote, a few voters expressed that they would like to see hail stick around a bit longer so they could come to a solid conclusion, and those that voted ban felt strongly about it. I personally feel that there are some undiscovered strategies out there. Hopefully a discussion can inspire you to test out hail teams and strategies on the ladder so we can explore the playstyle a bit more.

 

[NfskMjmMal]

I'm surprised Hail isn't used more too. You even get a good spinner which benefits from Hail! But, hazards take a really big toll, and it doesn't help that even your spinner is weak to Stealth Rock. Although it's not really relevant in RU, Munchlax is the best counter to Hail.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax: 87-103 (18.35 - 21.72%) -- possible 5HKO

And it can't be Toxic-stalled because basically all Munchlaxes are RestTalkers (until Munchlax runs out of Rest PP, I guess). But then again, it's not good at all, and Hail isn't common enough to justify using Munchlax just to counter Hail.

On the complete opposite end of the usage spectrum, Slowking works great against hail due to resistance, great special bulk, and access to a ton of reliable recovery. It has to watch out for Glaceon's Shadow Ball and Rotom-H's Electric STAB though. Lanturn does an alright job barring Glaceon's HP Ground, but it lacks reliable recovery and Blizzard 3HKOs.

I think one of the problems with Hail is that Snover is so much dead weight. I mean, the support it provides is awesome, of course, but for example, Ttar is used so much despite sand not being as good because Ttar itself is really good. I feel like at times Snover is best used as fodder.

This discussion actually might inspire me to use a TrickHail team. Glaceon's problem is Speed, of course. In the right scenarios I imagine that at least two Pokes are going down every time Glaceon comes in during Trick Room. Slowking would be an awesome TrickHail Trick Room user because it resists Fighting, Fire, Steel, and deals with Rock-types fine that threaten the Ice-types. Sceptile might be good also to get rid of Slowking, Lanturn, Piloswine, etc.

 

[EonX]

Hail is potent, but it has a lot of issues. Snover is pretty much dead weight in most situations, meaning you start 6-5. Offense Hail teams need a wallbreaker and a cleaner (Glaceon is almost always used for one or the other) while stall Hail Teams need a true stalling threat in Hail (typically Walrein) A spinner is needed for almost any Hail team as well as something that cover many things Ice types hate (so, Cryo and one of Slowking or Alomomola in most cases) Take a look at the slots already used up; Snover, Glaceon (Walrein for stall), Cryo, and either Slowking or Alomomola. That's 4 slots already, one of which is usually dead weight after setting Hail up. After that, you need an SR user, and, in the case of Hail Stall, a (Toxic) Spikes user. Guess what? That's all 6 slots used for a Hail Stall team and just 1 free slot for an Offense Hail team (which typically needs to aid Glaceon, so there's restrictions there as well)

In short, lack of practical versatility really hurts Hail teams. Then there's the counters. Emboar and Slowking are the big 2 and both are very good in the current meta. Lanturn, Entei, Gallade, and Alomomola are some others that work just as well on certain teams. Hail is usable, yes, but very difficult to have versatility with and has plenty of good general checks and counters in the current meta.

 

[Pocket]

BlizzSpam is certainly hard to pull off when Slowking is the #1 mon in RU. This is why Rotom-F's BlizzBolt offense is so useful in overcoming this obstacle for such teams. Sub Protect with Walrein or Glaceon certainly works, but make sure you have an answer to Overcoat Escavalier and Magic Guard Clefable. Emboar is a great addition here, since it can muscle through these threats while not compounding any more SR weakness.

Although Snover indeed is a shitty mon, Grass + Ice + Fire is great coverage, and the Focus Sash set usually brings down 1 mon with it or severely cripple a check for Hail. Also, since RU teams usually lack weather moves like Rain Dance or Sunny Day, Snover guarantees permanent snowstorm, which is good news for BlizzSpammers and Ice Body mons.

 

[august]

snover isnt as shitty as most people seem to think it is.... the focus sash set is capable of taking out a good deal of pokemon and damaging others. its particularly good vs offense... if you have a switch into offensive fire mons and can double switch snover back in to give it an advantage, it can actually do some damage. i've never had too much success with the eviolite set... sure although it can take some weak hits, it still can't really take anything remotely strong and the lack of lefties + stealth rock means it cant really switch in too much..

ive been using the same hail stall team since december now and i can say that hail stall is pretty dominating if done properly. basically if your opponent has no grounded poison mon, they WILL struggle with toxic spikes + walrein. infact, i'd bargain to say stallrein in hail is the best pokemon in the tier. it is ridiculously hard to 2hko walrein with any special attack (lanturn volt switch fails to break my sub sometimes) and once it is behind a sub it can mercilessly stall out anything that doesnt have leftovers with sub + protect or just roar away / toxic bulky lefties mons like slowking. i will be the first to admit that my hail team has a LOT of problems, but once you get walrein behind a sub with toxic spikes down it is almost impossible to lose, especially against offensive teams. speaking of walrein / hail, speed creep sub roar walrein is pretty good to beat other stall / hail because most of the blizzard spamming mons can barely touch rein.

oh scarf walrein is good too

i personally think hail is broken. sure there are mons that check hail really well (sdef magneton, restalk entei come to mind) but they surely don't fit on every team. most times i have to use stuff i wouldnt normally use on my teams to check hail (ive been using a gross amount of toxic spikes to check sub protecters). barely anyone uses hail but even when im facing people that dont know what they are doing with hail i still have to play really well in order to beat rein / glaceon + tspikes

tl;dr i think hail is broken but i dont think people realize because it isnt being used enough

edit: oh yea i agree with pocket.. rotom-f is really good to wear down stuff that annoys hail (cryo comes to mind) with the lo sub split set.. it can also run scarf or 4 atk ebelt which makes it particularly dangerous while still being able to maintain momentum with volt switch

also eon-x you are completely disregarding the fact that kabutops can fufill both the rapid spinner portion and acts as a bulk water that gives even better assurance against fire mons thanks to aqua jet. also slowking is honestly a piss poor check to hail stall, as is emboar. both get easily beaten by toxic spikes and emboar gets walled by reflect sr uxie and can be easily worn down by protect + hail + sr + toxic spikes. entei is stealth rock weak and his main form of STAB against hail is completely suicidal. alomomola gets DESTROYED by stallrein and can't even take blizzards from glaceon in the hail. lanturn maybe have heal bell but it cant even break rein's subs every time with volt switch. so if those are your checks and counters for the current meta, you are wrong. honestly the biggest threat to hail is probably escavalier. hail means qwilfish, arguably one of the better switch ins to cb escav, won't be able to recover the damage it takes from sr and its lefties / black sludge recovery is offset by hail. this means it has to rely on the incredibly unreliable pain split. meanwhile escav is immune to tspikes and hail and takes neutral dmg from rocks meaning it is realllly hard to wear down. restalk escav is even worse because it can rest off blizzards from glaceon etc.

 

[phantom]

I'm going to diagree with a lot of what's said here. I really don't think hail is broken, here's why:

Snover

The monarch of hail teams, Snover is a horrendous Pokemon in every respect and I'm annoyed by people who even think it's somewhat decent. One of the main reasons why hail isn't dominating is due to the fact that Snover is utter trash. I can see why people think it's decent (when it really isn't) because of the fact that it's able to weaken an opposing Pokemon or even net a kill or two, however, let me remind you guys, that this is the ladder where Sandslash is sitting at #17 and Dusknoir is sitting at #30. As a result, you can hardly justify the success of an offensive attacker with 62/62/40 offenses on a ladder that's wreaking with this level of sheer incompetence. When you're actually up against a competent player, the match is basically 5-6 when you're using a hail team. Now with all this in mind, I still think Snover's usage is way too low just because of how powerful hail teams are. While Snover is nothing short of horrendous, the support it gives turns otherwise mediocre Pokemon into offensive and defensive juggernauts. Between BlizzSpam and Stallrein, you have a lot of shit to watch out for when you're up against a hail team. With all this mind, lets look at Snover's main set and see which Pokemon on your team match up well against it.

Snover @ Focus Sash
Trait: Snow Warning
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Mild Nature
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain / Wood Hammer
- Protect / Hidden Power Fire
- Ice Shard

Right off the bat you can see that this thing is walled by Fire-types, and RU has plenty to spare.

Fire-Types:

All of these Pokemon can flat out OHKO Snover while taking very little form any of its attacks. SubCM Entei can even use Snover as setup bait and pretty much melt through the entire team. Magmortar can also set up a Substitute and severely dent a good portion of the hail team as well. The best Snover can do is around ~23% to Magmortar, the frailest off all these Fire-types. So if you have a Fire-type on your team, you should have no difficulty dealing with Snover.

Multi-hit attackers:

Seeing as how Snover runs Focus Sash, any Pokemon that can hit it twice in one turn deals with it as well. Once again, there are also quite a slew of Pokemon that can do this job effectively. All these Pokemon deal really well against stallrein as they can break its sub and do severe damage to it while hitting over half of the remaining team for super effective. Klingklan and Crustle can also set up on Snover and sweep its teams with little difficulty as well due to the team's lack of type variety.

Pokemon who flat-out wall Snover:

Even if you don't have any of the above Pokemon, there are plenty of other ways to deal with Snover. All of these Pokemon (either offensive or defensive variants) take very little from Snover's attacks. They can either set up on Snover or OHKO it. The point of all of this is to demonstrate how easy it is to beat Snover. There are also loads of other viable options in NU to use. If Snover so much as kills one Pokemon on your teams, that's all a result of you having a bad team, or just being bad. So yes, it is pretty stupid how people call Snover so much as decent, when it's ridiculously easy to beat with little preparation. This is why if you're using a hail team, you're at an immediate disadvantage.

BlizzSpam

Admittedly, these Pokemon become 10x better with Snover's support. But by no means are they unbeatable. First off, they all compound weaknesses, making team synergy a bit of challenge when constructing a hail team. Because of this fact, it's often detrimental to the team to carry more then two or three abusers at any one time. Second, they're all (with the exception of glaceon) surprisingly easy to wear down due to the team's common Stealth Rock weakness. Not to mention that a Scarfed fighting-type will pretty much destroy the team once their fighting resist is out. Moreover, Lanturn, Slowking, Piloswine, and even Magneton deal with these Pokemon fairly easily. BlizzSpam is a powerful offensive strategy, however, it has some gaping weakness in regards to team synergy and that fact you can just pack a random Ice-type resist to check it.

Walrein

This right here is the reason anyone is even considering hail to be broken. Walrein is without a doubt one of the best Pokemon in RU when it's under hail. Its ability to stall out Pokemon such as Slowking and Emboar is amazing. Not to mention its fantastic ability Ice Body, which means it'll never die. Walrein still faces the same problem as the BlizzSpammers, it compounds weakness for its team, meaning you can't just slap Walrein on your team and be done with it. As mentioned previously, Multi-hit attackers such as Cinccino are excellent checks. Walrein is also crippled immensely by poison, which eliminates its stalling capabilities. Not to mention that Steel-types and SubCM Entei set up on it and destroy its whole team in the process. Toxic Spikes + Walrein is said to be a difficult strategy to break though, however, this is all the result of heavy team support. I don't understand why the same level of support / effort can't be applied to beat it.


Why hail teams are good:

• They can freely spam high BP STABs with no repercussions
• Residual damage gives them an edge over offensive and defensive teams alike
• Walrein can effectively outstall 75% of the tier with proper support

Why hail teams are not broken:

• Snover basically starts the match off 5-6
• Abusers are relatively one dimensional offensively and defensively (with a few exceptions)
• Stealth Rock cripples half the team as a result, while one Pokemon can likely wall two of the sweepers
• It's easy to prepare for by slightly adjusting your own team
• Drastic changes aren't necessary, as good checks tend to be common and easy to fit (contrary to popular "belief")

What's to come...

This thing is basically a juxtaposition of Glaceon and Walrein. Great coverage, insane special defense, soon to be great ability, and acceptable special attack. It likely will make hail a little better, though I doubt it'll break it. Team synergy and the fact that its defensive typing is utter crap is one of the reasons. Though the fact that they have one more abuser to add on to in the future is pretty compelling. Regice will likely be just as good as Stalrein if not a little better. Walrein + Regice would likely be a killer stall duo as Walrein has difficulty outstalling entire teams before being PP stalled itself. Then there's the fact that Regice can possibly run an effective offensive set too, like Walrein.

 

[Cherub Agent]

I'd like to post about a nifty little core here :3

Golurk @ Leftovers
Trait: No Guard
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spd
Adamant Nature
- DynamicPunch
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge

+

Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Atk / 236 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Thunder Wave

This is a little hazard laying core that I've had loads of fun using. It provides all of Stealth Rock, Spikes, and a spinblocker. Not to mention that both of these Pokemon are rather adept at pseudo-hazing, and thus racking up passive damage with the hazards that they set up, and deal with Rapid Spinners far more effectively than one might think. People look at Golurk and notice that while it may block Rapid Spin, it's weak to the STAB moves of both of the tier's premier spinner (Waterfall and Ice Beam). Ferroseed can come in on both of these moves without much trouble at all (Iron Barbs also dissuades Rapid Spin to a certain extent) and completely walls Kabutops, and deals respectable damage with Gyro Ball, while it OHKOs Cryogonal. This is just one small synergetic relationship the two share. The second comes with Dynamic Punch and Thunder Wave. Ferroseed is very adept at spreading paralysis thanks to its great bulk, and Golurk can abuse this fact by spamming Dynamic Punch across the opponent's team, hardly even giving them a chance to attack. Golurk and Ferroseed also share some cool defensive synergy with one another: the former is immune to the Fighting-type moves targeted at the latter, while Ferossed can use Water- and Grass-types as setup fodder for Spikes. They also make great checks to some of the nastier threats in the tier: Escavalier won't Megahorn Golurk due to its resistance and bulk, and will have to resosrt to Iron Head, which is a free switchin for Ferroseed. Golurk falls to Lilligant, which Ferroseed deals with handily (unless it's an HP Fire version) and 2HKOs with Gyro Ball.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I'd like to post about a nifty little core here :3

Golurk @ Leftovers
Trait: No Guard
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spd
Adamant Nature
- DynamicPunch
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge

+

Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Atk / 236 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Thunder Wave

This is a little hazard laying core that I've had loads of fun using. It provides all of Stealth Rock, Spikes, and a spinblocker. Not to mention that both of these Pokemon are rather adept at pseudo-hazing, and thus racking up passive damage with the hazards that they set up, and deal with Rapid Spinners far more effectively than one might think. People look at Golurk and notice that while it may block Rapid Spin, it's weak to the STAB moves of both of the tier's premier spinner (Waterfall and Ice Beam). Ferroseed can come in on both of these moves without much trouble at all (Iron Barbs also dissuades Rapid Spin to a certain extent) and completely walls Kabutops, and deals respectable damage with Gyro Ball, while it OHKOs Cryogonal. This is just one small synergetic relationship the two share. The second comes with Dynamic Punch and Thunder Wave. Ferroseed is very adept at spreading paralysis thanks to its great bulk, and Golurk can abuse this fact by spamming Dynamic Punch across the opponent's team, hardly even giving them a chance to attack. Golurk and Ferroseed also share some cool defensive synergy with one another: the former is immune to the Fighting-type moves targeted at the latter, while Ferossed can use Water- and Grass-types as setup fodder for Spikes. They also make great checks to some of the nastier threats in the tier: Escavalier won't Megahorn Golurk due to its resistance and bulk, and will have to resosrt to Iron Head, which is a free switchin for Ferroseed. Golurk falls to Lilligant, which Ferroseed deals with handily (unless it's an HP Fire version) and 2HKOs with Gyro Ball.

I've used this core since early BW2, and imo it's pretty awesome, the synergy is great between them and they form a spiker+spinblocker duo which is always great in any tier. A phazer is sometimes useful to rack up the hazard damage, but defensive and offensive teams alike have benefit. Oh and Prankster Riolu can be used with this core for the fun.

EDIT:

Here's a really underrated threat in RU, surprised he isn't used more.

Carracosta (M) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Solid Rock / Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shell Smash
- Aqua Jet
- Stone Edge
- Ice Beam

This is an amazing mixed sweeper. Grab a boost and you're golden. Carracosta is amazing after he boosts, and there are only three RU Pokemon that can boast not being 2HKO'd by this monster; Quagsire, Poliwrath, and Ferroseed. He has priority to pick off Aerodactyl, Accelgor, Scolipede, and Cinccino, which helps, while he hits really hard. He can sweep a team with just hazard support, so he can do extremely well in RU. I've also used this in conjunction with Scolipede before, they're amazing together. This thing is great, and give it a shot.

 

[Molk]

I've actually used a variation of CherubAgent's core for quite a while now (i've been using it for the past two months or so) and its worked absolutely wonderfully for me so far. As CherubAgent mentioned, Golurk+Ferroseed gives you Stealth Rock, Spikes, a spinblocker, and a way to reliably beat Kabutops, Cryogonal, and Sandslash in just two teamslots, which is incredibly invaluable. I used an Iron Fist Golurk with SR/EQ/Shadow Punch/either Fire Punch or Drain Punch instead of a No Guard Golurk because i honestly find Iron Fist to be the more useful ability overall thanks to the universal boost it gives to Golurk's coverage moves, no matter how awesome a 100% accurate confusion might be :/. Anyways, i actually used that core along with the SwellowBlim combination that i mentioned earlier on in the thread to great success! Drifblim provided the team with a second spinblocker which was pretty nice, between two Pokemon that could block Rapid Spin and a Spiker who discouraged Rapid Spin and beat all the spinners 1 on 1. My opponent was only very rarely able to get hazards off the field, which was exceptionally good for Swellow and Drifblim of course because most of their checks happen to be vulnerable to hazards. Speaking of Swellow and Drifblim checks, Golurk and Ferroseed match up pretty nicely against them as well, being able to take repeated hits from say Aggron, Rhydon, and Regirock and either wearing them down with Leech Seed, using them as hazards fodder, or simply smacking them around with Earthquake in return, it was exceptionally easy for me to set up a win condition with that team as long as i didnt make any huge mistake, and its all thanks to Golurk+Ferro. Of Course this team had some weaknesses to common threats in the end, such as CB Entei and Blizzard Spammers, but i was able to cover those two decently in the last two teamslots, so no biggie.

Also supporting Carracosta as an excellent Pokemon, i haven't used it much in the new meta, but i used it quite a bit in the queen meta and i've seen it in action fairly often, and its definitely a big threat worth watching out for. At first it might seem too slow even after a Shell Smash, but Aqua Jet fixes that up to an extent, OHKOing the majority of faster opponents as long as they dont resist it.

 

[ss234]

Agreeing with others that hail is really, really good, and in my opinion is broken. Here's why:

Walrein: Walrein is the most retarded pokemon ever. Srsly. If this thing comes in on the wrong mon, i.e. anything that can't deal more than 75% to walrein's, which considering walrein's amazing bulk this is p damn hard, you lose a mon. Simple as that. Ik august was running a set that could survive LO galv thunder and wasn't even 2HKO'd by specs moltres hurricane, so even pokes with a se STAB, or the most ridiculously powerful moves in the tier are liable to being stalled out by rein in hail.

Rotom-frost: Ok we all know how strong the boltbeam combo is, but when it is backed by STAB, and you also have to factor in hail damage into account as well as the fact that Blizzard is 120 BP, you basically have to sack a mon every time on offense, as rotom-f's coverage with it's STAB's alone is that brutal. The scarf set is ridiculously hard to switch into for offense, as p much everything bar things like esca(which is really, really ez to wear down as long as it's not resttalk)is either 2HKO'd by blizzard / tbolt. You're usual hail checks(tops, aggron, moltres etc.)also don't stand a chance against this guy since tbolt 1 or 2HKO's them all.

Then there is the subsplit set, which p much straight up 6-0's all stall teams. The only option is hp fire cryo, which is terribad on stall. Again, a huge pain to face for offense as it's even stronger with LO and if this thing gets a sub up, it becomes insanely hard to kill and you will probably have to sack a mon just to break its sub.

Glaceon: Specs Glaceon is hideously strong. 2HKO'ing slowking after hail and tspikes(which are really good now as august said) is ridiculous. Scarf is also really, really good-recovering 6% of its HP makes it much harder to wear down with sr, and it still hits very hard with 130 SpA, and hail damage. Subtect works like walrein and, albeit its a lot harder to set-up but still very scary.

Residual damage: 6% doesn't seem like much, but it adds up. Pokemon like kabutops are losing 16% of their health every turn from LO and hail alone, add tspikes into the mix and its a whopping 28%. When you're facing a blizzspammer backed by a solid defensive core, it is incredibly hard to keep your checks to the hail abuser healthy. I guess this applies for the defensive pokes on hail teams, but they usually carry recovery of some sort or have wish support from mola / clefable. You can prepare as much as you like for hail abusers, such as with emboar / moltres / kabutops / aggron / escavalier, but that doesn't mean you beat hail in any way at all, as these are all useless if they are packing a poliwrath / regirock for moltres. Hail damage also negates leftovers recovery(obviously), stopping mons such as lanturn from walling hail teams at all.

Why people who think hail isn't broken are wrong(imo):

Snover: snover is far from useless. If you're main hail counter is say magmortar, then you just lost 40% off of it's health thanks to snover. Coupls this with hail damage and sr, and you're going to have about 1 switch in to their main hail scarfer and then you're dead. Typhlosion, emboar, entei etc. all take a lot of damage from snover-although I guess 30% may not seem like much, after sr and two round of hail and ice shard, you're down to about 45%. So not in much of a position to take on hail abusers. I agree that snover is not an amazing mon, but stripping 30-40% off of the teams fire type makes it ridiculously easy to win.

Multi-hit users: This doesn't even make any sense to me. Ok they can beat snover, the most useless member of a hail team. Can they beat the hail abusers, such as scarf frotom, or scarf glaceon? Only klinklang can, and that's not because it has multi-hit moves but because it is a steel type and therefore can tank blizzards(not too many though), and because of its poor coverage klinklang is quite ez to wall. I guess they can come in on say subsplit frotom as it subs, and then beat it but its not an auto-win against hail by any means as it can just switch out again. Frotom also 1HKO's all of them with it's STAB, who is the only hail abuser you're auto-winning against(walrein tanks all non stab se moves quite easily because of its ridiculous bulk depending on how it is ev'd).

SR weakness: The two best spinners, cryo and tops, fit easily into hail teams to check opposing blizzspammers and check fire types respectively. Ok losing 25% of your scarfers health makes a big difference, but that doesn't change the fact that they can destroy teams with ease. Also, remember that the hail scarfer is not taking residual hail damage on top of entry hazard damage-glaceon is actually recovering HP as well.

Also @ ice cream: focusing on beating snover is really not a good idea lol. If something that beats snover, that doesn't mean an auto-win against hail teams by any means. None of them can repeatedly switch in against things such as scarf frotom, so they really aren't good pokes to deal with hail teams.

TL;DR: Hail is broken because: walrein outstalls and kills any poke that can't deal more than 75%, frotom is insanely good, both as a scarfer and as subsplit, glaceon is bulky and hits really, really hard and recovers HP, snover is excellent at wearing down hail checks, and he residual damage makes a huge difference in how many times a mon can check a hail threat(also gets rid of lefties recovery from pokes like lanturn, which is huge).

On a different note, I really think that hail balance / semi-stall is the best way to play hail. Snover / ice scarfer / solid 4 mon defensive core allows you to wear down checks to your ice scarfer very, very quickly. If you can fit tspikes in there it is definitely worth it, however none of them fit that well into hail teams so definitely not a priority imo, and seeing how difficult it is to find a 4 mon core that can handle the vast majority of the metagame don't change your team just to include tspikes. Blizzspam can work, but it suffers from being really weak defensively and relies heavily on slowking and golurk(especially king)-which are of course pursuit weak.

 

[phantom]

Also @ ice cream: focusing on beating snover is really not a good idea lol. If something that beats snover, that doesn't mean an auto-win against hail teams by any means. None of them can repeatedly switch in against things such as scarf frotom, so they really aren't good pokes to deal with hail teams.

You missed the point. Please reread it. That was just to emphasize how shitty Snover was by demonstrating the commonality of the Pokemon that beat it. Also, in regards to the example of how it weakens your "hail check", that's a terrible way of thinking when you build a team. You need to build a team that does the best it can to cover all aspects of the tier. Hail is a playstyle, not a single Pokemon and should be prepared for in a way that you prepare for HO, stall, balanced, ect. If you rely on one Pokemon to beat 6 others, of course you're going to think hail is broken, because you're so darn unprepared for it that it will mop the floor with you. Why is it that people insist on relying on a single Pokemon to take on an entire archetype? If you fortify your team in such a way where you leave minimal weaknesses to hail or any other playstyle, you have a better chance of winning. I'd be convinced that hail was broken if you could prepare for it, yet the team could still overpower you and win regardless. This really isn't the case, especially when "hail checks" are as abundant as they are. It seems to me that a really good playstyle isn't being used enough, as such, nobody is preparing for it as much as they should. This leads to the conclusion that it's broken because it beats your unprepared team. Hail is in that limbo zone, where it's not common enough, people assume that they don't have to prepare for it, however, it's still a very potent strategy and teams should be built to prepare for it as if it was #1 in usage.

Multi-hit users: This doesn't even make any sense to me. Ok they can beat snover, the most useless member of a hail team. Can they beat the hail abusers, such as scarf frotom, or scarf glaceon?

Yes? Cinccino pretty much rapes the team. I don't get your point here. Klingklan is also an incredible weapon against hail, yet you insist it isn't because it can be worn down? Come on now. Once it sets up, GG. Mult-hit attackers break through subs and deal with stallrein, this is merely a suggestion to deal with it. I don't understand why you dismiss it so easily.

Ok losing 25% of your scarfers health makes a big difference, but that doesn't change the fact that they can destroy teams with ease. Also, remember that the hail scarfer is not taking residual hail damage on top of entry hazard damage-glaceon is actually recovering HP as well.

Yes it does. If they can't switch in, how can they "destroy teams with ease"? If half the team is weak to SR, what exactly do you think an offensive rock-type like Aerodactyl is going to do it? The teams are fairly one dimensional defensively and they put a lot of pressure on one Pokemon to carry the weight. This is another way you can prey on hail teams and take advantage of them. I find it hard to believe that a playstyle with this many flaws is broken. Hail's abusers aren't as varied as something like OU rain, where you have so many different options to choose from to build your team. They are all Ice-types with slight variations. This is a significant flaw and ultimately prevents hail from being broken.