Weavile is good if you need something that can both revenge kill Dragons and trap Psychics. It is outclassed in each of those individual roles.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
- Status
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
Higher speed makes it a better Pursuit trapper than either Tyranitar or Scizor.
If anything it's those two who need to worry about surviving a hit from Psychic/Ghost types if they decide to stay in.
Weavile on the other hand doesn't have to worry abut fast threats like Gengar, Latios and Starmie because they're all slower.
Completely agree.
A fine example of a mon that Weavile beats best is Latios: BOTH Pursuit Trapped as WELL as Revenge killing it.
Whereas scarftar just...traps and revenge-kills it guaranteed and can easily live any attack, so it just pursuits and doesnt have to win the 50/50. Seriously guys, weavile has a niche, yes. But that doesn't actually mean it's viable. Ninjask has a niche as a speed boost passer (nothing comes close in efficiency), but it's still completely inviable in OU (except on absolute BP teams, which are very rare) for a multitude of reasons (SR, frailness, no offensive/defensive presence, horrible defensive typing). Yes, weavile can use both ice shard and pursuit--but not very well for either, its only niche is having access to BOTH of those which honestly isn't that big of a deal. If I have a DDnite problem I'll just use mamo, if I have a lati@s problem I'll use ttar. If I have both? Unlikely, but fine I'll use mamo and ttar, they work well together and I'd rather have two great mons filling slots than basically a wasted slot. Yes, weavile combines two roles into one but does nothing else, and performs those roles much worse than other things that can fill those slots.
Higher speed does not make it a better pursuit-trapper than ttar, for example--weavile cannot OHKO anything with pursuit, so it must night slash/ice punch or predict the switch and pursuit, making it come down to a 50/50. If you predict wrong, they either get away or take a hit and KO weavile (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 198-234 (65.78 - 77.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock). Using latios for the moment, ttar simply does not have this problem--bandtar OHKOs (252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-314 (88.37 - 104.31%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) and can easily take any kind of hit, while scarftar 2HKOs with pursuit and again lives any hit (while if you want to you can go for the crunch, which OHKOs--you don't need to though, since you live a hit).
Tl;dr, weavile is outclassed as a pursuiter and an ice sharder. While it does combine these roles, it is inferior at both and is not worth the teamslot. Is weavile ever going to be viable on a competitive team? Yes, but very very rarely--you have to need both those roles in one slot and not mind a poke that is frail, SR-weak, has bad coverage, and is fairly weak overall. Sometimes it will be true, but not often. Belongs in B-.
Higher speed does not make it a better pursuit-trapper than ttar, for example--weavile cannot OHKO anything with pursuit, so it must night slash/ice punch or predict the switch and pursuit, making it come down to a 50/50. If you predict wrong, they either get away or take a hit and KO weavile (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 198-234 (65.78 - 77.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock). Using latios for the moment, ttar simply does not have this problem--bandtar OHKOs (252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-314 (88.37 - 104.31%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) and can easily take any kind of hit, while scarftar 2HKOs with pursuit and again lives any hit (while if you want to you can go for the crunch, which OHKOs--you don't need to though, since you live a hit).
Tl;dr, weavile is outclassed as a pursuiter and an ice sharder. While it does combine these roles, it is inferior at both and is not worth the teamslot. Is weavile ever going to be viable on a competitive team? Yes, but very very rarely--you have to need both those roles in one slot and not mind a poke that is frail, SR-weak, has bad coverage, and is fairly weak overall. Sometimes it will be true, but not often. Belongs in B-.
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 212-252 (81.22 - 96.55%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 224-266 (74.41 - 88.37%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 244-291 (93.12 - 111.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Weavile traps OHKOs Starmie and Latios most of the time whether they stay in or not with CB and it doesn't even need it for Gengar. Don't like being locked into Pursuit? Dark Gem is a perfectly viable option because if Weavile traps and OHKOs something with Pursuit without fail it has done its job. It can still OHKO 4x ice weak dragons with Ice Shard even without an item boost, assuming SR is up.
Dark Gem also allows Weavile to bluff a CB set after it revenge killed something with Ice Shard, only to bait stuff like Jellicent and...
252 Atk Dark Gem Weavile Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 414-488 (102.47 - 120.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tyranitar and Scizor are completely ruined if they get burned from Starmie's Scald or if they get hit by HP Fire (in Scizor's case) or a water attack (in Tyranitar's case, unless it's at full health).
Assuming Gengar doesn't have a Substitute up, Tyranitar risks a OHKO form Focus Blast and Scizor needs to gamble with a 50% chance of guessing right between BP or Pursuit, while Weavile simply clicks Pursuit and Gengar goes down regardless. Funny how you mention how Weavile's Pursuit is a 50% gamble but you fail to mention this when it comes to Scizor vs Gengar confrontations, something Weavile has absolutely no isssues with.
Securing OHKOs against these 3 threats alone much more reliable than Scizor and Tyranitar can ever dream of gives Weavile an important niche. B+ is where it belongs.
The way you put it, that makes Weavile seem more C-Rank to me. Not that I would disagree with that; everything you said is true. Way back when, Weavile's best calling was on Deo-D Hyper Offense teams, where it could be partnered with Gengar in order to deal with troublesome rapid spinners (read: Starmie) and also revenging Tornadus-T. Back then, it was really good. But now Torn-T and Deo-D are gone, and I don't find Weavile still having that strong a niche anymore.
Excuse me but did you just say that Weavile isn't viable? Here are some team types where Weavile works perfectly and no other Pokemon can do what it does:
- Hazard stacking HO teams with Gengar. Gengar beats Forre and Tenta, and Weavile traps and beats the only spinner that Gengar can't, Starmie. It also provides with valuable priority for the likes of Thundurus-T, Landorus, and Salamence, while also being able to revenge kill a ton of unboosted offensive threats. Of 'course if you are using Weavile you should pack Scizor and Keldeo checks, but they won't be able to switch in more than once anyway due to entry hazards.
- Rain teams that want Water resists and Keldeo checks such as Lati@s, Celebi, and Starmie eliminated. Scizor can't trap Baton Pass Celebi, is OHKOed by offensive Starmie, risks getting burned by defensive Starmie, and is less reliable than Weavile at taking down Lati@s as it has to take a hit first.
So here you go, two common team archetypes in which Weavile is a very viable pick. If Pokemon such as Espeon and Haxorus are in B rank then Weavile is surely worth of this sub-rank as well, and is definitely one of the best Pokemon there.
Not that i agree that Pokemon such as Haxorus, Espeon, Xatu, and Ditto should be there instead of B- or C+, but this is another discussion for another time.
I think Dark Gem Weavile is actually a really good idea. It makes sure that it doesn't have to rely on 50/50 predictions, and gives it longevity without LO eating away at it. Shame Weavile is UU and thus can't be used for OU Next Best Things otherwise I'd totally suggest it.
I still think it's B- though. It has horrible longevity with SR, Spikes, and Sandstorm constantly eating away at it. And unlike the other four SR+Spike weak pokemon in OU (Cloyster, Kyurem-B, Ninetales, and Volcarona), it doesn't have ridiculous firepower (or in Ninetales' case, a shit ton of team support) to make up for it.
@alexwolf, you misinterpreted what I was saying. All I was saying is that having a niche doesn't automatically make you viable. Weavile happens to be somewhat viable on exactly the team archetypes you mentioned. My point was just that you can't simply say, nothing else does exactly what it does, therefore it should alwayds be considered (i.e. niche = viability). Read my tl;dr para, and I'm saying p much exactly what you stated--weavile is absolutely viable on teams that have the VERY SPECIFIC needs for the roles it can play (like trapping starmie AND revenging dragons, or trapping BP celebi on a rain team). These are rare enough and weavile is mediocre enough even in these situations that he's not hugely viable, but you're right, there are situations in which he is a good option which is why I'd rank him as high as B-. And honestly, I'd consider C, but for the kinds of examples alexwolf mentioned. B- seems fine to me.
I tried that long time ago, and that's not a good idea. Mainly because teams using Weavile (weatherless HO most of the time) need Ice Shard to be as effective as possible. Same goes for Low Kick.
The extra bump you get on a Pursuit does not worth the loss of power for Heatran, for Venusaur, Breloom, Ferro...
You'll also never never bluff a CB set, and the cases in which Dark Gem is genuinely useful are so rare. It's just pure theorymon, I'm pretty sure that anybody who would try it for real would prefer a LO, a CB or even an EBelt.
This exactly. In the era of deoxys-d days when deo+gar+weavile was such a popular combo, dark gem had a niche in being able to almost fully guarentee its job of eliminating spinblockers. But now weavile's job is more so as a utility, and so it needs power on all of its moves
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
You do realize that suicide Custap Berry + Sturdy leads such as Skarmory or Forretress are functionally identical to Deoxys-D, right?
Dark Gem Weavile is still useful for teams with such leads since they can't afford losing their entry hazards. So that niche is still valuable.
Either way, the point is that whether Weavile is running Dark Gem or CB it does have the ability to ensure key KO's.
Dark Gem Weavile is still useful for teams with such leads since they can't afford losing their entry hazards. So that niche is still valuable.
Either way, the point is that whether Weavile is running Dark Gem or CB it does have the ability to ensure key KO's.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
what...yo the guy's point is that weavile can hit deo-d super effective with its stabs and that's part of what made dark gem so effective in that era. yea lead forry/skarm do basically the same thing as deo-d but unlike the latter they can take on weavile all day and rack up hazards so i have literally zero idea what you're talking about.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
I guess his point is that you can still use Weavile in a combo with Gengar+Custap lead to prevent spinning, however dedicating half your team just to prevent hazards from getting spinned away is questionable especially since these Pokemon don't exactly have great synergie.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
o alright from here it sounded like he was saying weavile could take on skarm and forry like it took on deo-d. though yeah i agree the synergy between weavile and gengar isn't great plus you're now dedicating half your team to just keeping entry hazards up...better to just run a solid bulky offense than that shaky kind of ho
Nope, even in that era wasn't so good. Weavile role never been only to Pursuit or you rather have something else.
If you wanted to make your point better, you could have talk about Tornadus-T who was present here (hence making the Gem less good since MANY players were playing Weavile just for him). But even in that era, it wasn't worthy.
And I don't know why people believe this core was so "popular". I laddered with it long time ago, and even after my RMT, there wasn't that much Weavile+Gar+Deo teams.
You are ignoring an important point. Weavile is used in HO weatherless teams (because no Ttar) most of the time. What is the bane of these teams : Sun teams.
How to beat a Venusaur for those teams ? A crazy Scarfer, a random Hail put somewhere, or strong priorities.... and the only SE one is Ice Shard. Lowering Ice Shard power by 15 points on a classic Venusaur which is just huge. Same goes for many other crucial pokemons that I mentionned.
I bet, just missing this 0HKO on Heatran or the 2HKO on Ferrothorn will make you sick. Hell, you don't even OHKO Terrakion or Garchomp without the LO lmao.
But I encourage everybody to try it and see if it works or not as I'm pretty confident about my experience here.
PS : Iirc, I talked about Dark Gem on my own RMT (the first one featuring this core :nerd:, and the only legit one).
Alright I just wanna make things quick over here. All of you guys are arguing on Weavile's viability due to it's potential 50-50 failure to do it's job and its competition against Mamoswine. However, there is one thing all of you have to admit, Weavile has a well established niche that can be very helpful in a multitude of cases. There are quite a few times where you can justify Weavile's use over Mamoswine and actually gives offensive utility which is a lot greater (at least imo) than most Pokemon in C Rank and often finds a home in more teams than C-rank mons do. However, there is absolutely no reason Weavile should be above B-. All the flaws mention in its ability to do its job is a huge detriment and the fact that there are instances that you need to win a 50-50 prediction just so you can execute what Weavile is supposed to do is a large problem that lets it not stay anywhere above B-. Also, it seems that right now, the arbitrary description I see in the B- Rank is for Pokemon that have 100% established niches in the metagame, which is exactly what Weavile is. To summarize, Weavile is a Pokemon that fills a niche on teams that a good amount of teams can use, but its unreliability in some cases to do such job is a detriment from making it a great Pokemon. Nontheless, the usefulness of such niche keeps it in B-. I would understand if Weavile was in C though, just don't go around calling it inviable.
Here is another team that I have used it in, it's rather unorthodox and I should probably be running U-Turn Landorus but its another team that justifies Weavile's use on a team
Here is another team that I have used it in, it's rather unorthodox and I should probably be running U-Turn Landorus but its another team that justifies Weavile's use on a team
OK, so I'd like to compare Tyranitar to Weavile to illustrate why Weavile should be B+:
1) Speed: Here Weavile tops, no question, which is massive because it can outspeed and OHKO Terrakion:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 354-416 (109.25 - 128.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO
2) Coverage: Again here, Weavile tops because frankly speaking Ice is a better secondary STAB than Rock simply because of the coverage it gets on Dragons.
3) Attack stat: Here Tyranitar is better with 134 attack as opposed to 120 attack
4) Bulk: It is this stat that makes Ttar better than Weavile. Weavile is frail as hell while Ttar can tank a hit and OHKO, a big advantage
5) Weakness to SR: Another reason why Ttar is better than Weavile
6) Sand Stream: This helps Ttar wall Special attackers, whereas Pressure just kind of sucks in the competitive environment
However, as one can see, while Ttar is certainly the bulkier mon and thus better as a whole, Weavile sweeps better because of it's amazing speed and better coverage. Considering Ttar is A+, it's perfectly reasonable to leave Weavile EXACTLY a rank below it: B+.
1) Speed: Here Weavile tops, no question, which is massive because it can outspeed and OHKO Terrakion:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 354-416 (109.25 - 128.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO
2) Coverage: Again here, Weavile tops because frankly speaking Ice is a better secondary STAB than Rock simply because of the coverage it gets on Dragons.
3) Attack stat: Here Tyranitar is better with 134 attack as opposed to 120 attack
4) Bulk: It is this stat that makes Ttar better than Weavile. Weavile is frail as hell while Ttar can tank a hit and OHKO, a big advantage
5) Weakness to SR: Another reason why Ttar is better than Weavile
6) Sand Stream: This helps Ttar wall Special attackers, whereas Pressure just kind of sucks in the competitive environment
However, as one can see, while Ttar is certainly the bulkier mon and thus better as a whole, Weavile sweeps better because of it's amazing speed and better coverage. Considering Ttar is A+, it's perfectly reasonable to leave Weavile EXACTLY a rank below it: B+.
What the hell ? Comparing BS ?
Totally flawed and irrelevant analysis right here. You pick Weavile or Ttar depending on your own team archetype, and on the match-up you have issues with.
You don't even talk about Ice Shard, which is a shame because you mostly pick Weavile for that ability to RK dragons.
Ttar gives you an overall better match-up in this weather based metagame, period. Weavile is used in some really specific teams that can abuse the enemy's weather, or just ignore it thanks to a big cheer power.
Weavile allows less set-up, so fast paced teams with a weak defensive backbone can prefer him over Ttar.
Weavile truely shines against offensive teams (bar Sun), Ttar will be useful against all the rest.
But if it's about ranking Weavile, I think he is more viable than most of those B ranked pokemons...
On another topic, put Gyarados in A seriously, just check what is in S, and you'll realise how good he is in this meta. Only Rotom-W is an answer to this guy, and on the other hand, he set-up on the top offensive threats (Keldeo, Landorus) bar Terrakion, who is OHKO once Gyara gets the upper hand in speed. He's probably the best, easiest to pull off win condition right now.
Absolutely agreeing with Gyarados in A. The Sub DD set is unbelievably good in this metagame right now. If you set up a Sub on the switch, there are few things that are going to be able to deal with you. Rotom-W can deal with Gyarados, sure, but only reliably if it has Thunderbolt. Gyarados can keep setting up Subs as it Volt Switches and continue to Dragon Dance until even Rotom-W can't handle it. It holds its own against most of the other S and A rank Pokémon, and forms great pars with both Jolteon and Thundurus-T. The only thing that might hold it back is its weakness to Stealth Rock, but resisting common priority in combination with its decent bulk and great offensive capabilities make Gyarados at least A-.
Definitely. It gets to the point where i can sweep teams just with gyarados. Basically once it gets a sub up the opponent is going to need a bulky phazer or a rotom-w with tbolt to deal with it or else you can just setup your dragon dances with little to no trouble. Everything you said is true. Gyarados for A-Rank.
Absolutely agreeing with Gyarados in A-, maybe even A. It's great defensive typing and great abilities make it really hard to take down, and its overall just an extremely deadly pokemon. Once it gets a DD off, only really Scarf Terrakion and Scarf Rotom-W can revenge it, due to it not being weak to any form of priority. It just tears teams apart, and most common phazers even have difficulty with it, as Heatran and Hippowdon are torn to shreds and Skarmory has no hope after a DD and one or two Moxie boosts.
Forwarding Gyarados for A rank for the reasons stated above. It's simply fantastic at so many things, especially for countering keldeo and landorus (arguably the biggest threats in OU atm) and even set up on them sometimes. With rain everywhere, Gyarados will often have a rain boosted STAB waterfall, and if it's counter's cannot reliably do consistent damage to it, Gyarados will wreck havoc most of the time. :]
I compared them as Pursuit trappers and as sweepers as such because mostly everybody claimed Ttar was the better trapper: while this is largely true, Weavile has it's own niche as a faster trapper with better coverage.
Agree, which is why Weavile should be B+.
Completely agree. Gyara can truely sweep with Sub DD and is a danger, also with the offensive dragon dance set. Furthermore, Gyara can also run an effective defensive set with Intimidate and RestTalk.
Actually, even Rotom-W cannot counter it completely because gyarados does heavy damage with SE:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 213-252 (71.23 - 84.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Honestly, Empoleon is the only true counter to Gyarados:
252+ SpA Empoleon Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 129-152 (36.54 - 43.05%) -- 47.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
248 Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 12 HP / 4 Def Empoleon: 75-88 (24.03 - 28.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
So yes, I support Gyarados for A-Rank
- Status