Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

[Axa]

Speaking of the Floatzel BP set, one thing I've tried before was:

Floatzel@Liechi/Salac Berry
252HP/16Def/236Spd
Jolly
~Bulk Up
~Baton Pass
~Waterfall
~Taunt/Toxic/Crunch

This gives Floatzel enough bulk to survive most non-Banded physical hits to activate a Berry, then BP it along, while still giving it enough speed to outrun Scolipede. I find it works pretty well with Solid Rock Carracosta, who appreciates the increased physical bulk to Smash up more easily.

As an aside, if I'm running Crunch in the fourth slot I tend to run Hydro Pump over Waterfall, as even with the BU boosts Hydro Pump still hits things like Scolipede harder than a +1 Waterfall while Crunch hits Gardevoir harder.

 

[Punchshroom]

I've been toying with Floatzel lately, and have been impressed by its Speed time and time again. Mixed Floatzel OHKOes Scolipedes before they can move with Hydro Pump and blitzes past Jynx and Kadabra with Crunch, which is really nice; the fact that most people do not expect a specially-oriented Floatzel also does it favors. CB Floatzel packs a good punch as well, and royally screw up walls with Switcheroo. Even Bulk Up Floatzel sees success by setting up at least 1 Bulk Up with its incredible speed, survive the blow with its boosted defense, and Baton Pass it away to something more threatening. Should the opponent switch in a bulky Water, Floatzel has the chance to set up even more Bulk Ups, with Taunt and Water Veil preventing any status they can throw at you and Bulk Up weakening Seismitoad's Earthquake and Alomomola's Waterfall even further.

Simipour on the other hand I've found a bit harder to use because stuff actually outspeeds it now (I think there's no denying that it was better in Stage 8, where there's no Jynx and stuff was slower), however Simipour still has the potential to plow through teams with Nasty Plot and Salac Berry, which Gluttony / Torrent complement perfectly. Endeavor Simipour can also lure and weaken certain problem pokemon, and the ability to use Acrobatics gives Simipour the edge against Ludicolo, something Floatzel cannot boast.

I'm still on the edge whether fast but frail Water-types could be ranked higher even though bulkier Waters are clearly ruling the roost, but I'd still be leaning on B-Rank if it were to come to that.

Another pokemon I've been trying out with decent success lately is Simisage. The immediate comparison would be with Serperior, which has better speed, bulk and arguably superior boosting move. However, Simipour boasts a more diverse movepool and most importantly packs more power right off the bat, which lessens the need to boost, if at all. Simisage still boasts the Overgrow-boosted Giga Drain that Serperior has, but access to moves that can surprise pokemon that would ordinarily counter Serperior such as Superpower (Sap Sipper Miltank, Regice & Steels), Rock Slide (Altaria, Braviary) and Acrobatics (Roselia, Exeggutor) means it is harder to wall than it is to revenge kill (101 base speed isn't particularly easy for revenge killing). Easily the most interesting attribute of Simisage is Endeavor, which pairs extremely well with Substitute, Overgrow and Giga Drain. This unique combination allows Simisage to triumph over pretty much all of its switch-ins if pulled off correctly, as the Ghosts that would block Endeavor heavily dislike Overgrow Life Orb boosted Giga Drain. Best of all, Endeavor doesn't trigger Life Orb so you can preserve your health in that fashion, and thus makes Simisage into a highly effective lure.

Simisage plays differently from Serperior as it is much more reckless, but the lack of need to setup to dismantle cores, the ability to lure and greater off the bat power is still worth a look. Its lack of speed and bulk compared to Serperior do hold it back though, but it could still contend for B-Rank like it did in Stage 8, as opposed to dropping due to Scolipede's introduction.

 

[cb aaron judge]

Another pokemon I've been trying out with decent success lately is Simisage. The immediate comparison would be with Serperior, which has better speed, bulk and arguably superior boosting move. However, Simipour boasts a more diverse movepool and most importantly packs more power right off the bat, which lessens the need to boost, if at all. Simisage still boasts the Overgrow-boosted Giga Drain that Serperior has, but access to moves such as Superpower, Rock Slide and Acrobatics can surprise pokemon that would ordinarily counter Serperior, meaning it is harder to wall than it is to revenge kill (101 base speed isn't particularly easy for revenge killing). Easily the most interesting attribute of Simisage is Endeavor, which pairs extremely well with Substitute, Overgrow and Giga Drain. This unique combination allows Simisage to triumph over pretty much all of its switch-ins if pulled off correctly, as the Ghosts that would block Endeavor heavily dislike Overgrow Life Orb boosted Giga Drain. Best of all, Endeavor doesn't trigger Life Orb so you can preserve your health in that fashion, and thus makes Simisage into a highly effective lure.

Simisage plays differently from Serperior as it is much more reckless, but the lack of need to setup to dismantle cores, the ability to lure and greater off the bat power is still worth a look. Its lack of speed and bulk compared to Serperior do hold it back though, but it could still contend for B-Rank like it did in Stage 8, as opposed to dropping due to Scolipede's introduction.

I agree with this nomination for B rank, as the greater off the bat power does achieve some OHKOes, such as on Samurott, and a 50% chance to OHKO Golurk (unlike Serperior which needs a boost or be in Overgrow range to OHKO standard Samurott and Golurk), and access to Superpower, which puts a nice dent in Pokemon such as Regice and Lickilicky, Pokemon that Serperior can't really do much to. Personally, I find Sub+ 3 attacks to be quite good, as you can set up a sub on something you threaten out, and retaliate with a relatively powerful attack, but Simisage does lack Serperior's relatively ability to boost (Nasty Plots are quite hard to set up with those paper thin defenses)

 

[Raseri]

Changes:

Floatzel up to B from C
Simisage up to B from C

It's also time for us to do what OU and RU has been doing, and break up the rankings into top, mid, and low. I know tennis doesn't want this to happen but idgaf. The main reason for this is that even within the rankings, their can be a huge difference between the threat level and usefulness of Pokemon. We'll be going through this one rank at a time, starting with S. During this time feel free to discuss moving Pokemon between rankings, but nothing about High A, low D will be allowed til we get to those rankings.

For posts, something formatted like this would be great:

Top S
Raseri
zeb

Mid S
FLCL

Low S
Treecko

with justicification for your rankings of course. Any post without an attempt to justify rankings will be ignored.


Anyways to get it started, here is how I see S-rank at this time.

Top S
Kangaskhan
Jynx

Mid S
Samurott
Scolipede

Low S
Carracosta
Seismitoad

Kanga and Jynx are, in my opinion, the most dominant Pokemon in NU. Kanga is the best check to offensive teams around, with her strong fake outs, sucker punch. Kanga has power, speed, and bulk. Her movepool isn't amazing, but it is definitely enough to function in a wide variety of roles as needed. Jynx is Top S because of Lovely Kiss, amazing STABs, speed, strength. She can run a wide variety of equally great sets, ranging from monoattacker to Choice Scarf. There is no way to easily beat jynx short of sleep talk metang.

Samurott fits into Mid S because it can attack physically and specially. It's great STAB and decent bulk make it very hard to prepare for. I don't see it as Top S because of its subpar speed. Scolipede is something I go back and forth on, but I think Mid S is a better fit for it because it just isn't quite strong enough, or bulky enough to take on a lot of the metagame. A super fast Spiker with great typing is enough to make it a huge threat. If it had like base 100 attack I think it would be Top S, but it isn't that hard to take advantage of.

Seismitoad and Carracosta are both bottom S Pokemon, teetering on falling to A. Costa has all the issues Punchshroom has pointed out, low speed, not super easy to set up. But it is redeemed by its amazing power and great bulk. Seismitoad is a utility Pokemon more than anything. It can fill a wide variety of roles for teams, and a big part of it is that it can be running so many different sets. I can't think of a Pokemon that can be physically defensive, specially defensive, and offensive (except champ braviary). It isn't any higher because of its middling stats. Nothing really stands out statwise about it. It's movepool also kinda sucks, no ice beam??? :(

Anyways, tell me what you think about this. Is Scoli top? Am I overrating Kanga. My list isn't the law, it is just how I see things right now. go go go

 

[watashi]

i think scolipede should be moved to top s because it can act as a sweeper or a hazard setter and do such a spectacular job at both of the roles. if you send in a defensive counter then the opponent will most likely set up three layers of spikes and wreck your team. on the other hand, many of the faster checks such as scarf jynx and swellow will be destroyed by the subsalac set which ohkoes pretty much everything that's not really bulky and resists megahorn.

this thread is still shit
raseri edit: how about we make it not shit then?

 

[Infernis]

Honestly, I agree with your S-Rank listing completely. I especially agree that Samurott is mid-S, to add a bit of detail to this post. I've used it extensively, and all of its sets (even the slightly wacky Taunt set from NBT) are fantastic except for its crappy speed. Aqua Jet does alleviate that somewhat, but 40 BP is hard to sweep on without +4 Atk. It's ridiculously easy to find time to get at least one SD on that set, or the Special set can blast a hole in whatever was supposed to switch in on the assumed SD. If it just had a little more speed, it could be high S. Jynx has that sweet base 95, and Kanga has loads of priority along with a not-bad-at-all base 90 speed.

I like subtiers. They give us more to talk about. :naughty:

 

[tennisace]

I honestly dont like the idea of dividing 6 mons into 3 groups but its not that important as long as people follow the previous rules in this thread.

Anyway, I agree with Scolipede for high S. It basically brought an entire style of play to the top of the tier (spikes stacking offense). It can spike, it can sweep, it can support the team with status or baton pass, and it's bulky enough to take a few hits while doing it. Along with Jynx, it's a metagame defining Pokemon.

 

[Punchshroom]

Just as we settled all of the pokemon into the appropriate tiers, this happens. Not that I'm complaining.

Top S: No doubt about Jynx here, forcing every single Water-type in the tier to adapt or lose to it is a testament to her prowess, with Lovely Kiss, an absolutely wicked movepool and killer offensive stats make her a metagame defining threat. Kangaskhan is great insurance for any team against rampaging sweepers and can put a great dent in things, with only dedicated physical walls able to switch in due to Ghosts being 2HKOed for the most part.

Mid S: Samurott is dangerously unpredictable, but its speed is enough to really hold it back from wrecking a lot more. Scolipede is in the same boat, with incredible versatality amongst its sets making it tricky to play around, but its lack of bulk / power and recovery prevent it from accomplishing as much as it could have.

Low S: Couldn't agree more with Carracosta, he's worthy of S but requires more maintanence than the other S-Ranks. Seismitoad I feel is not so much super threatening than it is super utility: excellent resistances, well rounded stats and adequate movepool help greatly in terms of its support potential. Even Seismitoads in Rain teams are used as Electric + Rock switchin and SR setter first and Rain sweeper second.

I'd like to know if we are moving on to the other tiers soon, presuming starting with A-Rank then onward.

Treecko for mid A

 

[Axa]

I might be a lone voice of dissent here, but I'd probably feel Jynx is closer to Mid S. She's a great Pokemon (she's S tier after all), but unlike Kangaskhan who can threaten almost any team out there, Jynx struggles just a mite against Heavy Offense, especially those that pack multiple Pokemon that can outspeed her. Even against Water Pokemon (her main niche), Samurott and Carracosta can beat her on a good prediction, while Floatzel and Simipour outspeed her and can pack Crunch/Acrobatics. She's still fantastic, but I think that like Samurott, she has just enough flaws to drop out of Top S for me.

 

[ryan]

Treecko for mid A

Treecko for Mid-S because Top-S is where Pokemon are more prone to be banworthy! :D

Anyways, I'm actually really excited to be splitting Pokemon into High, Low, and Mid within their own tiers. This is great for newer players to see top threats in the metagame, and it's more defining than just lumping all Pokemon together into one huge ass group. It also gives us the opportunity to think about every Pokemon in each ranking on an individual level, and it might help us find Pokemon that are more worthy of lower or higher rankings. Let's do it boys (and girls if there are any who actively post in this thread)!

Kangaskhan is sort of a strange Pokemon. It pretty much does one thing, and the one thing that it does hardly makes it broken. But of course, the viability rankings aren't about what is broken and what is not. Kangaskhan is a really great revenge-killer and backup plan against a lot of other top tier threats. It's a great way of having a revenge killer without having to worry about running a super-fast Choice Scarf user, and it has a lot of great power behind its two priority moves—Fake Out and Sucker Punch. Whenever I play with Kangaskhan, I usually think "when all else fails, I still have Kangaskhan." It's sort of offensive support, and it's well worth a spot in Top S-Rank to me.

Scolipede is in my top three favorite Pokemon to use in this metagame, alongside Kangaskhan and Swellow, and it's pretty easy to see why; it's so good. I kind of felt like this one was a no-brainer, but Raseri does make some good points for Mid S-Rank. Base 90 Attack seems a bit underwhelming, and its bulk isn't stellar. But it does have a couple of great resistances that let pair well with the likes of Seismitoad, Carracosta, Kangaskhan, etc. I think the key point here is exactly what tennisace said: it defined an entire playstyle in NU, and that playstyle—Spikes-stacking offense—is such a good one that I think it slips into Top S-Rank for me.

If my hate for Jynx wasn't already known by everybody, let me add it here. The reasons why I hate her are the same reasons why she is deserving of Top S-Rank, and they are reasons pretty much everyone else already listed. Jynx might struggle a tad bit against opposing offensive teams, but that's pretty much it. It has three really great sets, and all of those sets have different variations where you can change them for what your team needs. Lovely Kiss is ridiculous for a Pokemon like her, in the same way that Sleep Powder only helped Venomoth get banned from RU and helps make Lilligant a top-tier threat in RU. Jynx makes stall a bit of a liability in NU, forcing such playstyles to run multiple checks to Jynx. Otherwise, the only check you run can be put to sleep. Same type of thing goes towards balanced teams. Basically unless you never give Jynx the opportunity to come in for free, you'll be fine. But that's incredibly difficult without running hyper offensive teams. There's no questioning Jynx's spot in Top S-Rank.

The BW starters have always seen some success in BW NU, and Samurott is truly no exception. Water is such a cool offensive typing, and Samurott has all the tools in needs to play successfully in NU; it has great mixed attacking stats, an easy-to-utilize movepool, cool bulk for an offensive Pokemon, and enough Speed to outpace nearly every wall in the tier. What holds it back is also its Speed, though. Most of the tier's best offensive Pokemon are faster than Samurott is, and most of the tier's offensive Pokemon that are slower than it is have better bulk. Priority patches up its Speed a bit, sure, but it's incapable of beating Jynx, one of the most common Pokemon in NU, unless it switches into a Megahorn from either of its popular sets. In general, anything that can outpace it and take a +2 Aqua Jet usually plays well against it and can come in and revenge kill it. Undoubtedly a Mid S-Rank Pokemon, but its Speed pretty much is the only thing holding it back from Top S-Rank.

Toooooader. I love Seismitoad right now. Basically what Raseri said sums it up: it can play basically any role you want it to, and it does all of these roles at least decently well. Seismitoad is a Pokemon you can just slap onto most teams without much hassle. If only it was a little bit faster or a little bit bulkier or a little bit stronger, it would be Mid S-Rank. To be honest, its versatility almost makes me want to push for it to be Mid S-Rank, but I do realize that versatility alone doesn't cut it. I'm fine with Seismitoad for Bottom S-Rank, but I highly encourage anyone who might want it to be Mid S-Rank to make their arguments. I could be convinced to change my mind!

Carracosta is such a cool Pokemon, and I'm glad we could mostly all come to agree with its spot in S-Rank. I still occasionally doubt its position in S-Rank from time to time, but then I play with it again and realize why it's here. Everyone else has already covered why it's Bottom S-Rank, and I agree with them for those reasons—doesn't hit quite as hard as you might want, not as bulky as you might think, still pretty slow after a Shell Smash, etc. If anyone wants to know why it's S-Rank in spite of these reasons, read about half the thread. It's in here. ;)

Recap of S-Rank in order of worthiness in each ranking:

Top S
Jynx
Kangaskhan
Scolipede

Mid S
Samurott

Bottom S
Seismitoad
Carracosta

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I'll just say that Scolipede deserves to be in Top-S in my opinion. Like what Treecko and tennisace mentioned, Pede defines the metagame. Its blazing speed means that pretty much nothing can stop it from getting up one or two layers of Spikes. It has a coverage move that hits opposing leads hard (EQ, Aqua Tail) and Megahorn for STAB. In terms of Spiking, it's like the Froslass of NU -- low risk, high reward, almost guaranteed up two layers of Spikes, nothing much you can do back. When not Spiking, it can also turn into a fearsome SubSalac sweeper. Thanks to its blazing speed and 4x resistances to grass and fighting, it's not hard to force a switch and SD while subbing down to Salac and Swarm range. It can even Baton Pass these boosts away. Not much likes switching into it; those that can switch into it are slower and more vulnerable to whatever Scolipede does, while those who are faster than it do not want to switch in. Scolipede is one of the top threats in this metagame right now, it deserves a place in Top S in my opinion.

I think we've pretty much agreed with the rest of the S-ranks

"when all else fails, I still have Kangaskhan."

Yeah

 

[Raseri]

Alright, since some people have continually called dividing S-rank stupid. I figured I should defend myself. The primary reason for this is consistency, there exists a difference of power in S-rank that also exists in A-D Rank. Not dividing S-rank when Jynx is miles ahead of Carracosta just seems stupid.

Another reason I'm dividing S-rank now is because it is very possible that more Pokemon could be added to S-rank in the future. There are a lot of Pokemon in A that are on the fringes of S. If S was to get larger in the future, we would have to go back from scratch and discuss it all again. Doing this process in reverse (shrinking it) is a lot easier should that need to be done in the future.

Anyways, I also want to discuss why I see Scolipede as a Mid-S rank instead of a Top-S rank threat.

• It just isn't that strong

Scolipede has base 90 Attack. Sure Megahorn is an absolutely amazing STAB move on it( it is S rank), but it's coverage moves are weak because Scolipede is pretty weak.

• It isn't very bulky

Lacking bulk doesn't stop you from being Top-S rank( See: Jynx and that 65/35/95 defences), but Scolipede is also a lot weaker than Jynx.
When you compare the 2 top-s mons with Scoli defensively this is how it lines up:
Kanga: 105 / 80 / 80
Scolipede: 60 / 89 / 69
Jynx: 65 / 35 / 95

So Kanga is clearly the bulkiest, while also being stronger than Scolipede.

It is both of those points combined that make me believe that Scolipede is not Top-S rank. It is an absolutely amazing Spiker due to its speed, but it isn't very strong, or very bulky. The SubSalac set is a decent sweeper, but it needs hazard support in order to gain a lot of KOs. And if youre trying to sweep with Scolipede, where are the hazards coming from? Kanga is a fast, bulky, pretty strong mon. Jynx is a fast, incredibly powerful mon with a great movepool. Scolipede is a ridiculously fast offensive support Pokemon with a pretty good sweeper set. If Scolipede was stronger or bulkier, I believe it would be Top-S without a doubt. But right now I just don't think it measures up to the standard created by Jynx and Kanga. It fits very well with Samurott as a Mid-S pokemon in my opinion.

 

[Aasgier]

Note that Scolipede's EdgeQuake + Megahorn provides perfect coverage. Also the fact that Scolipede basically ENSURES multiple layers of Spikes, makes me think it is the best Pokémon in the tier. I certainly find it to be better than Kanga, even if not as threatening, because there is almost nothing that can stop Scoli from doing its job - spike stacking - outside from a Swellow/Electrode lead, the latter being hit hard by EQ if it tries to Taunt.

That, and the fact that Scolipede can be slammed onto any team and you can call it a day, something I don't see with Kanga and even Jynx (though there is no denying that both are insanely good).

 

[Punchshroom]

I agree with Scolipede's current rank. While it defined a playstyle, Jynx I feel has a much greater influence on the tier. There's also the issue that Scolipede doesn't make a good Spiker and sweeper at the same time. If Scolipede is used primarily for sweeping, it struggles to set up more than one layer of Spikes without taking huge amounts of damage while doing so thanks to very lackluster bulk (especially on the special side, and there's mention of CB Sawk 3HKOing Pede with Close Combat), when it could be doing something like Swords Dance, Substitute, Baton Pass, or sporting extra coverage instead. Scolipedes used for Spiking as a result do not hit as hard, because they should invest in more bulk to pull off a Spiking role better, and even with its speed advantage it faces competition with Roselia and Garbodor, who last much longer due to their access to recovery (Rest / Synthesis or Pain Split respectively), lack of SR weakness and have as much if not greater success laying down hazards due to their greater bulk, not to mention there isn't much that Pede can set up hazards on that these two can't either.

Even then, sweeping Pede tends to lack a bit of bite without setup, because if Pede doesn't have the Swords Dance boost and Megahorn is resisted (or the target is just bulky), chances are it's not getting past that threat. Misdreavus, Weezing, Piloswine, Golurk, Golbat, Metang, Gurdurr, Seismitoad, Samurott, Carracosta and Rock Blast Garbodor are such examples of threats that can tank an unboosted hit and cripple / KO right back. If Pede doesn't have Rock Slide, Altaria, Mantine, Pelipper and Braviary can easily be lobbed onto the list as well, whereas Pedes without Earthquake can be checked by Skuntank and Rocky Helmet Clear Smog Garbodor. Another note is that while Jynx succumbs to every physical Scarfer, Scolipede falls prey to almost every (not piss slow) Scarfer, provided Salac Berry wasn't consumed. Most physical Scarfers have moves that can super effectively strike Scolipede, whereas special Scarfers can take advantage of Pede's poor special bulk and take it down.

Hazards Pede wants some bulk if it expects to set up more than 2 layers of hazards, which detracts from its power and / or speed. Here, Scolipede's 90 base Attack rears its ugly head, as you find its offensive potential diminished as you can only comfortably target weakened or Bug-weak opponents and its bulk is still not that great when compared to Roselia and Garbodor: Roselia sets up on Grass-types far better (including CM Seperior, which Pede cannot boast) due to Leech Seed immunity and Natural Cure, whereas Garbo pretty much fears only Earthquake from Fighting-types (Pede still doesn't favor taking Banded EQs, dies to Stone Edge and greatly dislikes Bulk Up from Gurdurr) and provides great utility with Aftermath (plus Rocky Helmet if you so wish). Its speed is a great advantage since it can set up hazards quickly and check certain threats such as Jynx or Sawsbuck, but otherwise Scolipede would likely be near / already dead if it tries to set up all 3 layers of Spikes (trying to stack Toxic Spikes into that mix is pushing it).

Scolipede is still efficient, but not as efficient as Kangaskhan, who man(woman?)handles a huge variety of offensive threats and can be hard to stop due to Scrappy, or Jynx, where each of her sets nets a great reward if played even remotely well and her Dry Skin forces every Water-type to adapt or be sitting ducks.

Wow, I said that S-Rank was ruled by bulky (bulkier) Waters, but now it looks like the girls are taking the stage in this one. :I

 

[Nozzle]

Do we start at S-rank with this and then divide them and then move on to A-rank or can i just divide A-rank right now? (If yes i will edit this post)

 

[Raseri]

Do we start at S-rank with this and then divide them and then move on to A-rank or can i just divide A-rank right now? (If yes i will edit this post)

S-rank, I'll post when we're moving onto a-rank

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I like subtiers, don't remove them Raseri

I think that Scolipede should be Top-S because it is guaranteed to set up at least a layer of Spikes thanks to its blazing speed (two layers, more often than not, with a Sash). We all know how great it is for offensive teams when two layers of spikes are layed. It has coverage moves to deal with most other common leads. Aqua Tail will bring Golem down to Sturdy so it has to choose between getting rocks up or Scolipede's life. I wouldn't say base 90 Atk is bad, especially when you work with a base 180 power move after STAB, can boost with Life Orb, Swarm and Swords Dance, plus, it is backed by blazing speed enabling it to take down most common things in the tier. Whatever the case, Scolipede is still likely to either a) lay down Spikes or b) leave a dent. Its bulk isn't good but both its 4x resistances allow it to lay Spikes throughout the match.

I sense controversy building up

 

[Aasgier]

Let's add something to discuss about: I want to suggest Metang and Gurdurr for Low S-Rank.

While Gurdurr always runs the same set, it is such a monster. It can set up on basically anything, and wins head-to-head against almost the entire tier (Gurdurr defeats all NU Flying types if at full health, even Swellow and Braviary), that is, except for Psychic-types, Golbat, Weezing, Torkoal and Misdreavus. These are however quite common in NU, with Misdreavus being very popular nowadays and the omnipresent Jynx, which prevent Gurdurr from rising up higher.

Then there is Metang, which can perform multiple roles and has enough bulk to do so. As a SR setter, it can easily set up SR multiple times throughout a match in case they are spun away, but Metang can also function very well as a bulky Hone Claws sweeper, with or without RestTalk.

While quite a few things can handle Metang, very few things can prevent the SR setter from doing its job. The Hone Claws sweeper is a huge monster and can deal devastating damage once it gets the ball rolling, though it loses to Golurk which is absolutely everywhere, as well as other Ground- and Fire-types. But I had huge success with the RestTalk variant, sometimes even sweeping entire teams away, though it was kill fodder a few times.

 

[Punchshroom]

Eh. I feel those two would be Top A-Rank (or Mid), but we'll talk about that one some other time.

I see one big issue that the two share: they are slow and vulnerable to special attacks, like Piloswine. I think that this is enough to push the two out of S-Rank.

Edit: Gurdurr isn't beating Alomo before dying to Toxic damage, what with WishTect. While Metang does resist Ice, Grass and Psychic and can take Shadow Balls okayish; Water, Electric and especially Fire attacks will easily put a dent in Metang.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I disagree with those two for S-rank. Like Punch said, both are too slow and have too low special defense to be S-rank. Gurdurr is good but is forced out by Psychic-types (bar Jynx) far too easily. It doesn't have a way to get past physical walls easily (it beats Misdreavus with Payback but none of the others). Similarly, Metang may be a good check to Jynx and Swellow but gets forced out too easily. The fact that it is forced to run Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch in the same set also limits its move options.

About the Scolipede issue...? Could we like get the NU viability council which was never used to resolve it before it becomes a second Carracosta?

 

[Aasgier]

Gurdurr can beat the most common physical wall, Alomomola (set up to +4 and OHKO), and Misdreavus as well if it runs Payback. Also, Drain Punch heals off Hazard damage, so being scared out doesn't hurt that much, and if Misdreavus is forced to check Gurdurr as well as, let's say, Scolipede and/or Pinsir, it will be a huge strain on the beheaded witch, since it has no reliable recovery.

And while Metang is slow, I don't really see its vulnerability to Special attackers, considering's Metang's great Steel/Psychic typing which allows it to come in on most Special attackers in the tier and due to Eviolite even many neutral attacks don't do much (just watch out for Fire-types as well as Ground-types). Also Metang does not have to run Bullet Punch if it opts to RestTalk.

 

[Farobi]

The main flaw of Gurdurr is its incapability to take repeated hits from the most prominent special attackers in the tier. Samurott, Eelektross, and Ludicolo will usually leave a huge dent on Gurdurr while still retaining enough bulk to take Drain Punch. While Gurdurr can potentially beat most birds one-on-one, the faster and more offensive-paced metagame shatters its chances on finding that situation, and a quick U-turn from those birds give Gurdurr the shorter end of the stick. Its Speed is also pretty bad to say the least. Gurdurr is most probably the best bulky physical set-up sweeper (it can also run a decent four-attack set btw) in the tier, but the numerous flaws still overshadow it amongst other Pokemon.

Metang is a cool Pokemon. I enjoy using it and it has proved to be one of the most important member of my offensive team. The problem is that it almost always has a bad matchup against common leads. Golurk, Golem, Piloswine are common, bulky leads that just dont care on what Metang has against them, and of course, Metang's main job is setting up entry hazards (never tried Hone Claws yet though), making it harder for Metang to set up while still retaining a good amount of HP to check other Pokemon on the opposing team. As previously stated, Metang is also prone to be hit by strong hits, most notably special ones, as well. Metang is also not strong enough to hit hard unlike most other leads. Overall, Metang should stay in A-Rank.

 

[Aasgier]

I see where you are going with Gurdurr though, let's leave it at that. It indeed takes a lot from special attacks, and if that is, combined with its paltry speed, is enough to keep it A, I can understand that.

About Metang's bad matchup against common leads, Metang isn't a SR setter to lead with. You lead with Misdreavus/Sawk/Primeape and bring in Metang once their SR setter is burned/wrecked.

 

[Farobi]

Yeah, so that practically means that it needs some form of "support" to be used effectively. It would probably be S-Rank if it can utilize a recovery item, but foregoing Eviolite kinda sucks. Metang is also a candidate for being worn down by repeated Focus Blast, U-turn, and Megahorn faster than other Pokemon (at least Missy has Pain Split). Metang more times than not has been proven to be vital for my team's success, but unfortunately, it has flaws that prevents it from being S-Rank.

It also says in the S-Rank description that the S-Rankers are supposed to have "numerous positive traits with little-to-no flaws" and tbh Metang doesn't fit that. :(

 

[Lolk]

would it be wise to just chill a week and start this after the changes mold the meta a bit?