Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

[BKC]

what if tentacruel got dry skin? you think it's hard to kill with rain dish? sure it's now less resistant to fire [which shouldn't be an issue in rain anyway] and loses hp in sun but the amount of recovery it'd get is just ridiculous.

 

[Shurtugal]

Would it replace Rain Dish or would this be another alternative to Rain Dish?

As for the effects itself, I think it'd make Tenta one hell of a threat to beat if it did get that because sun is so lackluster in usage atm.

 

[Houndoomsday]

i really like that- an extra 1/16 a turn doesn't seem like all that much but it stacks up. a sun weakness would be incurred but current tentacruel in the sun is bad already

not too much to say, tentacruel would get a lot better and not have too much of a downside. i could see it spinning over starmie, as it would be so durable.

 

[Gary]

With Dry Skin, Tentacruel would be a much more reliable counter to Keldeo, especially the Specs variant. That would be nice. Keldeo would probably start running HP Electric more often though, but it wouldn't really bother Cruel that much with the combination of Protect + Black Sludge + Dry Skin.

 

[Groudon ex]

What if Tornadus had Sheer Force?

With Sheer Force and a Life Orb, Tornadus would pack slightly more power than the Specs variant when using Hurricane/Focus Blast, without being locked in. This would mean a lot for Tornadus, as currently it needs the power of Specs, but would rather have the versatility of Life Orb if the recoil wasn't an issue. Sharp Beak is usable, but ultimately isn't enough of a boost. Although it is still SR weak and rather frail, Sheer Force would enable Tornadus to use Life Orb without having to kill itself, and still pack a massive punch. Prankster isn't really missed at all on purely offensive sets. This is unlikely to be broken as it is still very easy to revenge kill, requires rain for an accurate Hurricane and is still walled by SDef Jirachi and the pink blobs, but it would definitely rise up to become one of OU's most feared sweepers. Even Landorus-I would be jealous of its power, although it would still have some bulk and an SR neutrality on its side.

I expect a typical set may look like this:

Tornadus @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Air Slash
- Substitute / Agility

Flying / Fighting get almost perfect coverage together; HP [Ice] can be used to hurt Zapdos, one of the few things that resists the combination. Air Slash can be a nice alternative, as it gives Tornadus a solid STAB to use for reliability outside of rain, and is also boosted by Sheer Force. Substitute is useful for blocking status, as well as for taking advantage of predicted switches. Agility can be used to outrun scarfers that can stop a sweep, although is very hard to set up, and Tornadus is still vulnerable to most priority users.

 

[HUARGH]

What if Ferrothorn got Sand Force?

Gyro ball does 150 base power to pokemon with a speed of 239 and higher. With STAB, this is 225. With CB, this is 337.5 base damage on Gyro ball (as long as it hits 238< speed). Despite this already high number, CB Ferrothorn isn't seen that much. With Sand Force, however, this number will be boosted to 438.75.

It would OHKO Tyranitar, Landorus, Celebi and Keldeo and 2HKO bulky Landorus-T through intimidate (as long as Landorus-T is running 240 speed to outrun Breloom and Skarmory).

 

[Shurtugal]

Nah. Give Ferrothorn regenerator instead. Or perhaps Natural Cure.

 

[HUARGH]

Nah. Give Ferrothorn regenerator instead. Or perhaps Natural Cure.

Obviously that's better but what's the point of that? Everyone knows what would happen. May as well give him thick fat then (or if you want to make more sense: levitate, it does look like an alien space ship now doesn't it?), or give Sableye wonder guard if we're going down that route.

 

[dadoux]

What if Kingdra had Superpower ?

Kingdra is a really good pokemon, good typing, good stats, 2 powerful stabbs in Outrage / Waterfall, access to dragon dance...but that's it. His movepool totally sucks, Blissey can wall easily special sets, and ferrothorn can easily wall every variant he got.

With outrage / dm / waterfall / surf or hydro pump / signal beam ( for celebi, even tho it's not that great ) / superpower he could do a very good job as a mixed set, without being totally overpowered for the metagame.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Obviously that's better but what's the point of that? Everyone knows what would happen. May as well give him thick fat then (or if you want to make more sense: levitate, it does look like an alien space ship now doesn't it?), or give Sableye wonder guard if we're going down that route.

I agree with this (Though in a slightly less snobby way, if you will) We're theorymonning pokemon that could be changed in a better way, not break them. As for Sand Rush Ferrothorn, it'd give people slightly more of a reason to use it offensively but at the same time it's really only gyro ball that's getting the upgrade. (Sand Rush only powers up Ground steel and rock moves I believe) While Gyro ball would receive a great upgrade there really wouldn't be a reason to stick a choice band on it other than that.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Natural Cure Ferrothorn is perfectly possible, it is a grass type after all.

 

[alexwolf]

Sheer Force Tornadus would be an absolute menace and a completely overpowering force. A STAB 90 BP Ground move coming from a 115 base SpA stat is one thing but a STAB 120 BP Flying move coming from a 125 SpA base stat is just ridiculous. The only real counter to this thing would be SpD Jirachi, which would need Protect to counter more than once and would still take large amounts of damage from Focus Blast (38.86 - 46.03%). Assuming a set of Hurricane / Focus Blast / U-turn / Agility or Rain Dance or Superpower, here are some calcs against its usual checks and counters and other generally bulky Pokemon:

• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 125-147 (32.55 - 38.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and sure 2HKO after one turn of U-turn + SR
• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tornadus Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 152-179 (50.83 - 59.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 151-178 (49.83 - 58.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 276-325 (39.2 - 46.16%) -- 24.61% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sure 2HKO after one turn of U-turn + SR. Or just sure 2HKO with Superpower + Focus Blast after SR.
• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 250-296 (38.34 - 45.39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and sure 2HKO after one turn of U-turn + SR. Or just sure 2HKO with any move + Superpower.
• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 214-253 (52.97 - 62.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tornadus Hurricane vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 145-172 (44.34 - 52.59%) -- 85.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 88+ SpD Bronzong: 160-188 (47.33 - 55.62%) -- 81.25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 328-387 (93.18 - 109.94%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 419-495 (99.76 - 117.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

NO SINGLE SAFE SWITCH-IN! Add to this the fact that Tornadus has an excellent base Speed for an offensive Pokemon and you have a destroyer of worlds in your hands. And keep in mind that all those calcs were with Timid.... If you go for Modest and Agility things become even more ridiculous. The only way to deal with Tornadus would be Stealth Rock (handled by the great spinners rain teams can use), changing the weather (unreliable as fuck, and Tornadus can still cause huge damage even outside of rain), priority, and faster Pokemon (basically scarfers and 3-4 more Pokemon). Damn this thing makes Sheer Force Landorus seem like a harmless kitten...

 

[dadoux]

The only thing you can do is playing Jirachi spD with Thunder and protect, that would've been lame lol (and with u-turn it's easy to go for a dugtrio switch anyway...)

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 276-325 (39.2 - 46.16%) -- 24.61% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sure 2HKO after one turn of U-turn + SR. Or just sure 2HKO with Superpower + Focus Blast after SR.

IMO, this is probably the safest OU switch in, First off remember, Focus blast is at 70% accuracy, so that 24.61% chance to 2HKO would happen in reality only happens 12% of the time. No one would use Focus Blast + Superpower, lets be real here.

Also, many Chansey players use more specially defensive spreads, for example the spread I use 180 HP / 252 Def / 76 Calm takes it fine.

252 SpA Sheer Force Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 180 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 180-212 (26.23 - 30.9%) -- 20.29% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

it even stands a good chance against specs
252 SpA Choice Specs Sheer Force Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 180 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 270-318 (39.35 - 46.35%) -- 25.78% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Superpower is a bit different though, unfortunately calculators don't do the superpower KO chance right, but from some rough calcs looking at the possible damage, it seems to only 2HKO 19% of the time after rocks.

 

[Mood4food77]

not sure if this counts but what if Aerodactyl got Head Smash and Brave Bird. I mean, it's already got Rock Head, 2 good sets could be

@Life Orb/Choice Band
Jolly / Rock Head
252 Atk/252 Spe/ 6 Def
Brave Bird
Head Smash
Earthquake
Taunt/Stealth Rock/Fire Fang/Rock Polish

This is a really offensive set. Giving Aerodactyl 2 stupid powerful moves (with no drawbacks mind you) makes this Pokemon a completely viable offensive force.

and you also get our favorite lead set:

@ Focus Sash
Jolly / Rock Head
Stealth Rock
Head Smash
Earthquake
Taunt

I mean, these 2 move additions wouldn't break it but they would really make Aerodactyl a threat.

 

[Vert]

What if Salamence got Extremespeed?

This thing would suddenly be powerful with moxie sweeps. I'll add it with Outrage and Fire Blast and you'll have a strong DD sweeper. It can only be revenge killed by Terrakion and Jirachi, because they resist Extremespeed. This thing with be very powerful and no longer outclassed by Dragonite, with the parity moxie gift.

 

[Shurtugal]

What if Terrakion got Extremespeed?

It's better than Quick Attack, anyway.

 

[alexwolf]

Here are three suggestions about a certain badass Pokemon:

What if Metagross got Regenerator?

I think that this ability would make Metagross one of the best tanks in the entire game and skyrocket its usage all the way to top 10. Metagross would no longer have a longevity problem and would be able to last long enough the stop all the Pokemon it can, such as Lati@s, Kyurem-B, Salamence, Dragonite, Tornadus, Jirachi, Gengar, Alakazam, and many more. It could even use items such as Occa Berry and Shuca Berry in order to remove one its weaknesses for once, making it a great check/lure/stop to Pokemon such as Heatran, Landorus, Ninetales, and Venusaur.

What if Metagross got Analytic?

Check Metagross's BW2 dex entry:

With four linked brains, it's more intelligent than a supercomputer, and it uses calculations to analyze foes.

This ability would make Metagross a great Choice Band user, as even Pokemon that could usually counter it, such as Hippowdon and Skarmory, no longer can. Here are some calcs:

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Analytic Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 232-274 (55.23 - 65.23%)
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Analytic Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 314-370 (74.76 - 88.09%)
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Analytic Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 322-380 (91.47 - 107.95%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Analytic Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 271-321 (89.14 - 105.59%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Analytic Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 136-161 (41.59 - 49.23%) -- 27.34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It would also allow the tank set to forgo Attack investment altogether and invest fully in defenses.

Finally, What if Metagross got Levitate?

Here is Metagross's Ruby dex entry:

METAGROSS has four brains in total. Combined, the four brains can breeze through difficult calculations faster than a supercomputer. This POKéMON can float in the air by tucking in its four legs.

This would make Metagross a much better Bronzong pretty much. Superior stats and superior attacking movepool would allow Metagross to take the role of Bronzong and kick it up a nitch, serving as a counter or check to dangerous stuff such as Garchomp, Landorus, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and any Pokemon that relies on Ground-type coverage to get past Steel-types, and unlike Bronzong packing a serious punch.

So, how do you think those abilities would help Metagross, and which would help him the most?

 

[Shurtugal]

Levitate Metagross would be cool. NO MORE FUCKING AIR BALLOONS!!!!!! :D

*ahem* I got carried away, sorry :P

With Levitate, Metagross would be able to set up on so much more Pokemon than it can currently, and I'd actually like a meta with Levitate Metagross. It's a more offensive Bronzong for people who need Bronzong's prowess on an offensive based team. It's more useful than Regenerator or Analytical, at least.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Analytic sounds cool...

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Analytic Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 232-274 (55.23 - 65.23%)

but how is it going to get below Hippowdon????

0 IV Brave Metagross has the same 130 Speed as neutral nature 31 Speed Hippow. Besides, Hippow's EQ does a shit ton to gross.

Or were you just trying to show off how hard it hits ??

 

[ciaranroy]

The Analytic boost applies on switch ins. Analytic would be cool, but I just don't think Metagross needs something like that. I think something like Shift Gear would be really necessary for Metagross to become a top-tier threat again.

 

[G-Von]

252 SpA Sheer Force Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 180 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 180-212 (26.23 - 30.9%) -- 20.29% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

The correct calc would be:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 180 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 234-276 (34.11 - 40.23%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Which is still pretty damn good, but the Chansey switch in is still pretty tough to get by.

 

[EDDR]

What if Banette got Prankster ?

Actually, I've already tried this in Balanced Hackmons. And I have got to say it works quite well. Since Banette gets a Priority Destiny Bond it can be quite troubling to K.O without a faster priority attack.

 

[jrod88]

What if Thundurus Therian got Hurricane?​

Thundurus T is most commonly seen under the rain, and with that ridiculously powerful special attack combined with Life Orb AND with a STAB Thunder that has perfect accuracy, you end up with pure terror. Now, what if Thundurus-T had Hurricane? To me it doesnt seem all that unreasonable why it wouldnt have hurricane because it is part flying type and its brother Tornadus has it in both therian and incarnate form. With hurricane, Thundurus would have TWO powerful moves that recieve stab and have perfect accuracy in the rain, although it does makes keeping rain up a priority for thundurus. I personally think that with Hurricane Thundurus would see a lot more usage in OU and rain teams because with it, Thundurus achieves a broader coverage and just the sheer power Hurricane and Thunder have under the rain after STAB potential life orb or specs is just insane, making it difficult to switch into.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

If Thundurus-T ever learned Hurricane, I have little doubt that it would be banned swiftly. Hurricane decimates almost everything that can currently check it - Celebi, Amoonguss, Lati@s, Gastrodon etc. Chansey (and I guess Lanturn) would pretty much be your only chance to check it defensively, but would still fall to sets with Nasty Plot. Unlike Tornadus, Thundurus-T also has Electric STAB, so it has no problem breaking through defensive Flying resists such as Jirachi, Rotom-W, Zapdos, Skarmory, Bronzong etc. Obviously its relatively average speed would still be an issue, but one easily resolvable thanks to Agility. A simple set of Agility/Thunder/Hurricane/Focus Blast would devastate almost every offensive team, and NP sets would make stall even more irrelevant than it already is. Since Electric/Flying has such good coverage together (resisted only by Magnezone, Jolteon and Thundurus-T itself in OU), a set with both NP and Agility alongside the two attacks would also be massively powerful.