Fine, so i guess porygon2 will stay where it is. Now how about tornadus for A-Rank? Specs hurricane/focus blast essentially ohko or 2hko the entire metagame bar sp def jirachi and the blobs, 111 speed allows it to outspeed even the latiwins, u-turn can scout and he can even use a life orb set with tailwind and taunt to support while maintaining excellent coverage and power.
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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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I could maybe see A-. Really, the only things the hold Tornadus back are its fraility, dependence on Rain, and SR weakness, but beyond that its great. Its kind of comparable to Gengar, actually. Torn can't switch in as easily, but it does a great job at supporting like Gengar does, and hits much harder than the latter, too. Also, it gets priority Rain Dance, so lol at Venusaur.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
I think that dependence on rain+stealth rock weakness+frailty are plenty reason to keep it in B+. The only poke in ou that is so dependent on weather (I believe) is venusaur, and you can't say that the two have even a remotely similar gain from their respective weathers.
I love tornadus, it can do some serious work and its "counters" often crumble to hurricane anyway, so I would not mind it in A- at all.
But from an impartial perspective, it needs emough support that B+ seems ideal
A 2HKO on Porygon2 isnt enough in most cases, because of T-Wave and Recover. And an OHKO is pretty much only given to STAB Fighting moves and some weather-boosted moves.
I have been a regular user of the duck in OU and TTar never ever scares me. After a T-Wave, Porygon2 can recover stall offensive TTar sets into oblivion.
I have to say that Porygon2 is waaaay better as a parasupporter than as a Toxic Staller. With paralyze on the opponent you render a lot of offensive pokes useless as well as winning the speed match so you can recover up before they can get a 2nd hit. T-Wave Porygon2 beats things like CB Scizor (Superpower does not OHKO). And most things that it cant paralyze are hit hard by Ice Beam.
Porygon2 is definitely underestimated in OU as a paralysis spreader and I suggest trying him out on a team that can take advantage of the paralysis Porygon2 spreads. In my opinion Porygon2 is B rank material, it has been the MVP in a lot of teams I made.
I agree with Tornadus for A- rank. It's nearly impossible to wall seeing as almost everything that can tank Hurricanes is taken out by Dugtrio or Focus Blast. Hard to switch in but if you do manage to get Tornadus in, something has to die.
Tornadus needing a spinner is a misconception also. I use Tornadus without a spinner just fine. If you're using it as a scout since it has U-Turn you're using it wrong, there are way better scouts in Scizor, Scarfachi, Rotom-W, etc. It should be used to smash things, and it's really good at doing so.
the fact that tornadus is underprepared for also helps it. If you don't have one of it's counters, chances are there isn't much you can do to stop it. Base 111 speed is phenomenal since a Scarfed Tornadus is able to outspeed all of the usual scarfers like Scarfed Keldeo, Latios or Terrakion. Even without a scarf, base 111 is still wicked fast. How many other pokemon can safely claim to be able to outspeed and OHKO Latios after Stealth Rocks, without a scarf?
252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 262-310 (87.04 - 102.99%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
tl;dr tornadus is frail and hard to get in, which is the biggest setback it has. but once it's in good luck eating base 120 power STABs with no drawbacks.
on a side note, anyone else notice that Politoed is going to be alone in S-Rank if both Landy and Keldeo get banned?
Tornadus needing a spinner is a misconception also. I use Tornadus without a spinner just fine. If you're using it as a scout since it has U-Turn you're using it wrong, there are way better scouts in Scizor, Scarfachi, Rotom-W, etc. It should be used to smash things, and it's really good at doing so.
the fact that tornadus is underprepared for also helps it. If you don't have one of it's counters, chances are there isn't much you can do to stop it. Base 111 speed is phenomenal since a Scarfed Tornadus is able to outspeed all of the usual scarfers like Scarfed Keldeo, Latios or Terrakion. Even without a scarf, base 111 is still wicked fast. How many other pokemon can safely claim to be able to outspeed and OHKO Latios after Stealth Rocks, without a scarf?
252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 262-310 (87.04 - 102.99%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
tl;dr tornadus is frail and hard to get in, which is the biggest setback it has. but once it's in good luck eating base 120 power STABs with no drawbacks.
on a side note, anyone else notice that Politoed is going to be alone in S-Rank if both Landy and Keldeo get banned?
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
The issue with that is that tornadus is in many ways a wallbreaker, so it wants to come in early, mid and lategame, something that stealth rock inhibits. Its counters and checks are defensive enough to last the whole game, so I don't feel as if a lategame sweep should be the largest goal.
thing about it's counters are they're so far and in between. It's main counters are Chansey, Blissey, Jirachi, Tyranitar, Heatran, Bronzong and Magnezone.
Chansey & Blissey - Only 3HKOed by Focus Blast, can Softboil off damage, paralyze or poison Tornadus ending it's effectiveness, excellent counters to Tornadus. however uncommon.
Jirachi - Sp. defensive Jirachi takes about 40% from each Hurricane. only recovery is Wish, which gives a turn to go to your Jirachi counter. needs wish+protect and avoid confusion hax to truly counter Tornadus.
Tyranitar - Takes away rain and afterwards, tanks Hurricanes even if they don't miss and OHKOs with Stone Edge. Tornadus has to rely on U-Turn and the terrible Focus Blast to kill it. good counter, but lack of recovery ruins it's staying power. Rain teams should have Tyranitar covered anyway.
Heatran - Can take Hurricanes sure, but not Focus Blast. Without HP Ice can't do much to Tornadus in return except for sit there or Roar it out. not to mention that heatran is neutered by rain anyway
Bronzong - rare and just too passive to be as good as it could be in OU
Magnezone - also can't take Focus Blasts but aiming for a Focus Blast when there's a chance it'll miss and you get KOed is a bad idea. however, it's a niche steel trapper. not what I think of when someone says huge staying power.
so apart from the blobs and specially defensive Jirachi with Protect, I don't get what you mean that most of it's checks and counters are defensive enough to stay the whole game.
in addition it goes against what I just said about not needing a spinner, but if you do run Dugtrio with it (who does need a Spinner to be effective) Dugtrio shuts down all of the above pokemon apart from Bronzong and Jirachi with U-Turn.
ah yeah, you're right. i've been using focus blast on Tornadus, forgot it had Superpower which would be a way more reliable way of dealing with it's counters. haven't tried the tailwind set so no comment.
Let's also forget that Tornadus-I can run Prankster Taunt if it so chooses, giving it a much much easier time against the pink blobs and other support mons even without Superpower.
I don't actively play OU enough to suggest a place for it, but that's something that definitely needs to be taken into consideration.
I don't actively play OU enough to suggest a place for it, but that's something that definitely needs to be taken into consideration.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Hold up. If it has superpower+taunt+whatever than it is NOT specs, which is what i thought we were discussing, and quite a few things now have a muche asier time with it
Also tailwind or not it is dying to priority (especialy with rock weakness)
It is great as a backup to prevent a sweep, but how often do you let something set up to the point where it outspeeds and kos your whole team?
Again, support torn for A-, but need to play devils advocate at some point
Also tailwind or not it is dying to priority (especialy with rock weakness)
It is great as a backup to prevent a sweep, but how often do you let something set up to the point where it outspeeds and kos your whole team?
Again, support torn for A-, but need to play devils advocate at some point
Prankster. Tailwind is meant to just come in after saccing something/predicted setup and to use it as torny dies so that something can come to revenge.
i was talking about specs set, ThisMysteriousGuy brought up the tailwind set as an alternative.
one thing about the tailwind set is how do you take a hit? if its meant for late game, well then most people tend to save a hard hitter for late game. how do you suppose tornadus takes a hard hit that late in the game? 2 if youre switching in? i cant see it being able to have a turn of setup most of the time
edit: also about what I said earlier, i really feel bad if landorus and keldeo are banned and politoed is left alone in S-rank. new players might see that as a sign that politoed is the best pokemon in the game and just slap it on their team. maybe something else should be moved from A+ to S-rank if landorus and keldeo are banned
one thing about the tailwind set is how do you take a hit? if its meant for late game, well then most people tend to save a hard hitter for late game. how do you suppose tornadus takes a hard hit that late in the game? 2 if youre switching in? i cant see it being able to have a turn of setup most of the time
edit: also about what I said earlier, i really feel bad if landorus and keldeo are banned and politoed is left alone in S-rank. new players might see that as a sign that politoed is the best pokemon in the game and just slap it on their team. maybe something else should be moved from A+ to S-rank if landorus and keldeo are banned
As much as I want them banned, that is a mighty big IF, we should wit until at least Landorus is maybe banned before we loosen the restrictions on S tier.
Rotom-W slipped my mind earlier.
specially defensive Rotom-W is also a great counter to Tornadus, can tank any move Tornadus has and KO with Volt Switch after Stealth Rocks. but again that's specially defensive, otherwise Rotom is 2HKOed without proper investment
specially defensive Rotom-W is also a great counter to Tornadus, can tank any move Tornadus has and KO with Volt Switch after Stealth Rocks. but again that's specially defensive, otherwise Rotom is 2HKOed without proper investment
oh yeah tornadus getting some love!!
I fully support a- rank because of this sole reason.
I have created a mixed set that can beat any scarfr switch in.
Tornadus @LO
Naive
Prankste-
Evs: 8 atk/252 SpA/248 Spe
-Hurricane
-Superpower
-Heat Wave
-Icy Wind
The idea is to slow down switch ins, and then they get mauled by the appropriate coverage move. Say Starmie switches into Icy wind. Speed drop, followed by Hurricane, which kills it off. Or I switch to a sweeper that can now take advantage of Starmies lower speed. Like CM Latias. I set up on Starmie, then proceed to blow through opposition. Hurricane is basically Focus Blast. Both have accracy issues, but I find alternatives like Air slash far too weak. Superpower is for ttar and heatran, and heat wave is for all other steels. Icy Wind is the crux of the set, but kills dragons if I don't want to risk Hurricane. Plus that handy speed drop. The set, imo is a very dangerous wal breaker and can even sweep if needed.
I fully support a- rank because of this sole reason.
I have created a mixed set that can beat any scarfr switch in.
Tornadus @LO
Naive
Prankste-
Evs: 8 atk/252 SpA/248 Spe
-Hurricane
-Superpower
-Heat Wave
-Icy Wind
The idea is to slow down switch ins, and then they get mauled by the appropriate coverage move. Say Starmie switches into Icy wind. Speed drop, followed by Hurricane, which kills it off. Or I switch to a sweeper that can now take advantage of Starmies lower speed. Like CM Latias. I set up on Starmie, then proceed to blow through opposition. Hurricane is basically Focus Blast. Both have accracy issues, but I find alternatives like Air slash far too weak. Superpower is for ttar and heatran, and heat wave is for all other steels. Icy Wind is the crux of the set, but kills dragons if I don't want to risk Hurricane. Plus that handy speed drop. The set, imo is a very dangerous wal breaker and can even sweep if needed.
There is little to no use for Icy Wind because all of Tornadus's switch-ins are either slower or fear much more from LO STAB Hurricane off 125 base Special Attack anyway. The revenge killing poke would also not be touched by Icy Wind before it finishes Nadus off. Basically its only uses would be like a guaranteed OHKO on Jolly Salamence or something (Naive is OHKOed by Hurricane, while SR makes this a moot point, but Hidden Power Ice exists), or catching a faster Electric on the switch, but since they aren't very bulky they too would hesitate to come in on Hurricane. I'd much rather U-Turn if I were to predict them.
Its not like Tornadus is starved for move options either. A Prankster Rain Dance / Taunt or U-Turn would be more situationally useful than Icy Wind :I
Its not like Tornadus is starved for move options either. A Prankster Rain Dance / Taunt or U-Turn would be more situationally useful than Icy Wind :I
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Why not just use (priority) tailwind? Same exact effect except faster, lasts longer, and can affect more than one poke
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Actually, Heatran has Fire Blast, which in fact does more damage to Tornadus than a super-effective Hidden Power Ice. However, it is a bad check because a boosted Hurricane still does a lot of damage, sometimes 2HKOing offensive versions even though it is resisted.
However, apart from Bronzong and Jirachi, none of those Pokémon you cited are true counters; each of them fear Focus Blast.
I think he mentioned that because Heatran regularly combats Tornadus in Rain, so Fire Blast is weakened.
which is exactly the point i'm trying to make. the few things that can take Hurricanes fear Focus Blast, Superpower or Dugtrio making tornadus incredibly hard to wall.
Any thoughts on moving Gothitelle up to A-? I've been using it a lot recently, and it's a very good revenge killer, and it has enough bulk to be able to come in on a lot of threats as well. It really punishes Choice users who lock themselves in on resisted or weak attacks, and it's movepool isn't great but it's good enough. I've been using the specs set and it has enough power to kill most threats that it traps.
I'm not sure who he is, but I recently watched someone using bluetta's team on Ou replay.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-35938973
His name is Caafffa. Since the second ladder reset, most vaporeon users including Bluetta and me - VapoLeon - pretty much deserted, left or hide on another all.(I'm not really into pokemon atm, I just want to see vaporeon in her deserved rank on this thread)
You can follow him to watch some of his game. He reminds me of Bluetta a bit.
There is also Mr. Rothamel. He uses a less stallish team with vaporeon which is really efficient. Go watch some of his game. He's really good, but unfortunaly, he also seems to play less than before which is unfortunate.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-35938973
His name is Caafffa. Since the second ladder reset, most vaporeon users including Bluetta and me - VapoLeon - pretty much deserted, left or hide on another all.(I'm not really into pokemon atm, I just want to see vaporeon in her deserved rank on this thread)
You can follow him to watch some of his game. He reminds me of Bluetta a bit.
There is also Mr. Rothamel. He uses a less stallish team with vaporeon which is really efficient. Go watch some of his game. He's really good, but unfortunaly, he also seems to play less than before which is unfortunate.
Err, can someone explain to me why Terrakion dropped from S rank to A+? It works as a set up sweeper, can run Band or Scarf, hell can run Mixed somewhat, and runs lead set greatly with access to Taunt and Stealth Rocks.
Edit: When I say mixed I mean it can run Life orb with HP ice to some extent.
Edit: When I say mixed I mean it can run Life orb with HP ice to some extent.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
It's a great poke, but there isn't anything spectacular about it really. It is so easily stopped by scarfers/walls (lando-t)/faster pokes/the most common priorities/etc. that it really is not sweeping very often, if ever.
Terrakion had a great run in the beginning of the new metagame but fell short of much hype. Though it's got great viability it's become more easily checked and countered by common threats/walls in the metagame. HP Ice is gimmicky for a Gliscor and Landorus-T counter, but without a Scarf it's left vulnerable because of it's lack of a solid priority move. Also pokemon with super effective priority moves destroy Terrakion sweeps / tandoms and bring Terrakion to a situational effective late game sweeper.
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