Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

[Antihaxxer]

The metagame will need Lighting Rod Zapdos (with Hurricane too :o)

 

[Absolete]

What if Klang got Trick Room?

Like, for serious. Klinklang learns Trick Room and Klang does not. Eviolite Klang would be the pure Steel type that Trick Room could desperately use, with access to Magic Coat, and volt switch, Klang could prove to be the perfect hole filler in some Trick Room teams.

 

[Prinz]

What if Klang got Trick Room?

Like, for serious. Klinklang learns Trick Room and Klang does not. Eviolite Klang would be the pure Steel type that Trick Room could desperately use, with access to Magic Coat, and volt switch, Klang could prove to be the perfect hole filler in some Trick Room teams.

Bronzong would be still greater than Kland for this job I guess. It has Trick Room, better offensive statistics (which are more appreciated than defensive ones in a Trick Room in my opinion), Stealth Rock and Explosion to get some useful momentum. I think that Bronzong is just too much superior for Klang even if got Trick Room.

 

[HolyAvatar]

What if mew got sheer force?

It would actually be good without being broken. Thanks to it's huge movepool and solid stats, you're in for a nasty surprise.
Not knowing if it's physical or special? Hell yeah.
Acces so nasty plot, agility (and rock polish iirc) and SD makes losing a turn very dangerous.
I'm guessing the psychic/focus blast/ice beam/agility set could be on par with Lando-I (at least an alternative).

It has always been a wildcard but now it is much stronger.

 

[TheUeki]

What if Lucario had Prankster?

Just like his pre-evo, Riolu.
He could use the Roar + Copycat strategy while also being able to dish out damage with extremespeed and maybe drain punch, for recovery.

Once it's threats were killed, you'd be in for a good time

 

[Chou Toshio]

Prankster Luke would be really interesting-- a tough opponent to be sure.

Unlike Riolu, Luke resists bullet punch, Extremespeed and Ice Shard. Meanwhile, it outspeeds Breloom and Conk, the two Mach Punch users (though infernape could throw a wrench in there). Also Luke's Atk/Sp.A would allow it to one shot any Dragon if it could copy cat D meteor or Outrage. Switch into predicted outage, live with Steel type, hit Copy Cat. Luke could do the same to Lando-I's HP Ice with prediction and the right IVs.

No Eviolite is sad, but Luke's power, resistances and threat would give it many more chances to roar, and better ability to abuse copy cat.

 

[Absolete]

Bronzong would be still greater than Kland for this job I guess. It has Trick Room, better offensive statistics (which are more appreciated than defensive ones in a Trick Room in my opinion), Stealth Rock and Explosion to get some useful momentum. I think that Bronzong is just too much superior for Klang even if got Trick Room.

Bronzong has to deal with the Psychic type though, not allowing him to be the ever needed hard wall for Dark and Ghost types attack that Trick Room teams need. While I do love Bronzong and appreciate him, in some teams I just wish so much that he didn't have the psychic typing. Klang, Reuniclus, Jellicent would be a very good defensive, well rounded core. It doesn't really have to be Klang, just any non-psychic steel type with low speed would be great. Klang just makes the most sense, because Klinklang learns the move.

 

[George Eliot]

Sheer Force Mew is pretty interesting actually. Compared to Lando, it has slightly worse speed, special attack and typing, but much better bulk and coverage options. All-out attacking sets, Nasty Plot, and Agility would all be extremely effective, and possibly banworthy. The only thing holding it back would be 4MSS, imo. It wants to run Psychic / Flamethrower / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast, but if you want to run a boosting move (or even Recover), you basically have to give up Shadow Ball and get completely walled by Latias. On the other hand, as our current meta shows, being walled by Latias isn't the end of the world.

 

[vyomov]

What if Kyurem got Magic Guard?
Always hiding in the shadows of Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W, Magic Guard would give Kyurem an inherent advantage: immunity to SR. It also allows Kyurem-B to absorb statuses like a Champ and run LO, making it the most dangerous mixed attacker in the tier.

 

[George Eliot]

Wayyyy too strong. Seriously. You have a Pokémon which loses 25% of its health each time it comes in from Stealth Rock, is vulnerable to both types of Spikes, gets hit by Sandstorm, and can't switch into most of the things it walls (Politoed, Rotom-W) because most of the time it will get burnt and it's best set (SubRoost) is completely crippled. And it's still a very dangerous threat in OU (honestly, almost every team I've used Kyurem on, it's been an MVP). Then you just wipe all those problems away, and on top of that, you let it use Life Orb recoil-free. Suddenly, 252/252+ Tyranitar is getting 3HKO'd, 252/252+ Jirachi is 2HKO'd, and CB Scizor is practically OHKO'd after a couple of turns of Rocks.

With Magic Guard + Life Orb, SubRoost really would be close to uncounterable - it comes in easily multiple times a match and just cannot be beaten by ANYTHING remotely common.

 

[Vert]

What if Thundurus Therian got Hurricane?​

Thundurus T is most commonly seen under the rain, and with that ridiculously powerful special attack combined with Life Orb AND with a STAB Thunder that has perfect accuracy, you end up with pure terror. Now, what if Thundurus-T had Hurricane? To me it doesnt seem all that unreasonable why it wouldnt have hurricane because it is part flying type and its brother Tornadus has it in both therian and incarnate form. With hurricane, Thundurus would have TWO powerful moves that recieve stab and have perfect accuracy in the rain, although it does makes keeping rain up a priority for thundurus. I personally think that with Hurricane Thundurus would see a lot more usage in OU and rain teams because with it, Thundurus achieves a broader coverage and just the sheer power Hurricane and Thunder have under the rain after STAB potential life orb or specs is just insane, making it difficult to switch into.

If Thundurus-I got this, I could see RestTalk set working due to priority recovery combined with Priority STAB which is just great. I could see this thing being a top broken mon in OU, well Incarnate form that is.

 

[Magcargo]

What if infernape got sheer force?
Infernape's main flaw is that it lacks the sheer power that most other OU pokemon have. However, all of this would change if it got sheer force. Sheer force infernape will basically be the keldeo of the sun. With sheer force, life orb infernape is capable of 2HKOing tentacruel after stealth rocks in the sun, an impressive feat no doubt. Its access to focus blast allows nape to beat special walls like blissey, chansey and heatran. Hidden power ice would most likely occupy the third slot to maime dragon types like dragonite, who can tank your STAB moves comfortably. The last slot would truly be a filler, so anything is possible. Infernape could also run an effective physical set, which has different counters. Here are some possible sets:

Infernape @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute / Nasty Plot / Stealth Rock /U-turn

Infernape @ Focus Sash
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty / Timid Nature
- Fake Out / Hidden Power [Ice]
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast / Close Combat
- Stealth Rock

Infernape @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- ThunderPunch
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance / Mach Punch / Stealth Rock / Hidden Power [Ice] / U-Turn​

 

[Codraroll]

What if Featherdance and/or Charm had priority?

Well... given their distribution, not a whole lot. Still, their users would be able to force a switch here or there, coming in after a teammate has been defeated, then neuter the opponent's Attack. They would probably get a move sent their way shortly thereafter, but with a halved attack strength, many Physical moves wouldn't hurt that badly. The user could proceed to set up something, or switch in another Pokémon weak to the (now crippled, mostly harmless) opponent, or use Charm/Featherdance again, just for the lulz. Combined with Intimidate (Staraptor, Granbull, Arcanine) it could really make a dent in the opponent's attacking capabilities.

Captivate could also be considered, but then again, it only works against an opponent of the opposite gender and wouldn't be that usable anyway.

 

[Chou Toshio]

'Kay guys, so here's a fun one I think:

+ Rapid Spin

It's a round saucer thing so why not?

Just consider a few things when thinking of Magnezone as a Rapid Spinner:

-The number one most popular spin blocker is Jellicent
-252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 198-234 (75.57 - 89.31%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 217-256 (82.82 - 97.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-Magnzezone can already prevent Steel types (that aren't ghosts) like Foretress, Ferrothorn and Skarmory from switching out.

 

[Hemp Man]

'Kay guys, so here's a fun one I think:

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/5/53/462Magnezone.png[IMG] [B]+ Rapid Spin

[/B]It's a round saucer thing so why not?

Just consider a few things when thinking of Magnezone as a Rapid Spinner:

-The number one most popular spin blocker is Jellicent
-252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 198-234 (75.57 - 89.31%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 217-256 (82.82 - 97.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-Magnzezone can already prevent Steel types (that aren't ghosts) like Foretress, Ferrothorn and Skarmory from switching out.[/QUOTE]

I wonder how many people would opt for the Electric-immune Golurk to be the new spinblocker? lol

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Magnezone might become a staple for most teams, as a stall player I would love Magnezone if if actually had any team support: ei Rapid Spin. Being also to trap and kill opposing steel types like Skarm, Forretress, and Ferrothorn isn't a bad thing either, speeding up the match a bit and winning the hazard war. In theory one could also trap opposing Magnezones and at the least weaken them significantly so they aren't so much of an issue for your steels.

I wonder if HP-ground Mag would increase in use....

 

[Absolete]

I wonder how many people would opt for the Electric-immune Golurk to be the new spinblocker? lol

All the real men would use Electric-immune Shedinja spinblocker :D

 

[Laga]

Rapid Spin Magnezone sounds pretty darn good, since Jellicent is completely smashed by it, and it can form not only the steel type trapping role, but also the spinner role.


Now time for another idea.

What if Salamence got Brave Bird

Surely looks like something that can use Brave Bird to me, but the logic of it aside, let's think about how this would affect the metagame. First of all, Scarf Mence not only gains another base 120 STAB move, this STAB move just happens to be a move that you are not locked into, which also provides some super effective damage on grass / bug / fighting types. The unfortunate thing is of course, that it is still left walled by steel types.

This of course would mean that if Magnezone actually got Rapid Spin, and if Salamence actually got Brave Bird, it would probably be one of the most devastating offensive cores in OU, since Magnezone not only takes care of the annoying Steel types, but also spins those pesky rocks out of the way for Salamence to switch in easier. I would sure as hell try that core out :P

Anyways, I would like to hear your oppinion on whether or not you guys think this would influence the meta a lot or not much at all and why :]

 

[BKC]

Nah. Give Ferrothorn regenerator instead. Or perhaps Natural Cure.

wanted to bring this up because part of what holds ferro back is its vulnerability to status, mainly burns. will-o-wisps from rotom-w, scalds from various pkmn like politoed/tentacruel all really mess it up. getting fully paralyzed on a crucial turn can also be a pain in the ass. obviously losing iron barbs hurts but i think that the ability to shrug off status on the switch would be a lot more valuable to ferro. for example a lot of subdd gyarados rain teams focus on burning ferrothorn so ferro can't break gyara's subs with power whip anymore. with natural cure, that all goes down the drain.

 

[pom]

What if Terrakion got Extremespeed?

It's better than Quick Attack, anyway.

Lucario would fall into UU range until the likely ban, Lando-T or Scizor would be mandatory, and Terrakion would have an almost complete lack of offensive counters.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 235-278 (56.76 - 67.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 247-291 (76.23 - 89.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 272-320 (90.36 - 106.31%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 272-320 (103.81 - 122.13%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 272-320 (67.32 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 257-304 (98.46 - 116.47%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 338-399 (101.19 - 119.46%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus: 302-355 (101 - 118.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So basically anything that can move before Terrakion (and do significant damage) would now need to be at almost full health to have a chance to beat Terrakion. Lemme know if I forgot anything important, but as far as I can tell, the only solid offensive checks are Conk and Scizor.

 

[DarkSlay]

I have an interesting one to talk about:

What if Garchomp received Agility?

Garchomp, from a flavor perspective, is all about the speed. From its numerous Pokedex entries:

Garchomp, the Mach Pokemon

Diamond: When it folds up its body and extends its wings, it looks like a jet plane. It flies at sonic speed.
Pearl: It flies at speeds equal to a jet fighter plane. It never allows its prey to escape.
B/W: It is said that when one runs at high speed, its wings create blades of wind that can fell nearby trees.

In Generation IV, Garchomp's base 102 Speed was seen as its greatest blessing, being able to out-speed most of the metagame and sweep with a great 130 Attack and nearly unresisted STAB coverage. However, thanks to the myriad of Scarf users and the shift from "100" to "108", Garchomp's once valuable niche speed is a bit lackluster in worth. SDChomp is still very powerful, and ScarfChomp is popular, but Garchomp now finds itself in an awkward position it never has been placed in before.

What if Garchomp received the ability to boost its Speed stat without the use of a Choice Scarf or by giving it Dragon Dance (essentially forcing it to compete with Salamence and Dragonite)? Agility is a good fit for Garchomp: it has a great natural Attack stat that it can use outright, powerful STABs, decent bulk and a decent coverage selection. With Agility, Garchomp hits 666 Speed with full investment and a Jolly nature. However, Agility would allow Garchomp to run Adamant (or a +Atk nature if it wants to use Fire Blast), which gives it 606 Speed and an outstanding 394 Atk. Here are some potential sets that Agility would create:

Pure Agility

Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
Nature: Adamant / Naughty
EV's: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe (NOTE: After one Agility, Garchomp out-speeds Scarf Starmie.)
Moveset:
- Agility
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Aqua Tail / Fire Blast

Double Dancer

Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
Nature: Jolly
EV's: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Moveset:
- Swords Dance
- Agility
- Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Earthquake

Agility is a great boon, with sets completely out-pacing the metagame. This also prevents Garchomp from getting revenged by a lot of common threats that Scarf Garchomp finds itself facing, including Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Lati@s, Scarf Terrakion, and others. Double Dance would also be fearsome indeed, having nearly unrivaled power and speed after two turns (although has to compete with Terrakion for this role).

However, unlike Dragon Dance (which would make this thing fearsome to a point of Uber questionability in my opinion), Agility still has its faults. As with all agility sets, it has to use a turn in order to get to the Speed it desires. This, as a result, lacks the immediate usability of Choice Scarf sets. Garchomp has to rely on its natural Attack stat and can only use items to boost its attacking power, meaning that it can't decimate its counters after some set-up like SDChomp can. That means Skarmory / Bronzong / Landorus-T and the like still pose hard challenges for Garchomp. Lastly, Garchomp is still vulnerable to priority, especially Ice Shard. While the 128 HP and Rough Skin ability helps in this regard, it still leaves Garchomp a bit susceptible to being revenged by niche threats. In regards to the Double Dance set, it still requires two turns of boosting to be completely effective, much like Terrakion. Unlike Terrakion, it doesn't get a SpD boost from Sand and still has to deal with hard checks in Skarmory and Bronzong even after both boosts.

So, what do you guys think? How would the addition of Agility on Garchomp affect the way it plays, and how would the metagame change?

 

[vyomov]

What if event Raikou was not nature locked?
The ability to use Weather Ball and Thunder off of 115 base speed makes it a great rain threat but without timid it fails to outrun many of the common things that it could beat such as terrakion. Aura Spear also helps out greatly letting it hit tyranitar even harder.

Actually, with the unlocking of the nature, Raikou would be able to beat the KeldLandoTtar core because it can run Timid, being able to outspeed and OHKO Landorus and Keldeo:
252 SpA Life Orb Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 317-374 (82.12 - 96.89%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 489-577 (153.29 - 180.87%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 400-476 (123.83 - 147.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With these, Raikou can come in on any one of these after they have killed a mon and proceed to demolish the core piece by piece(preferably if Ttar takes some prior damage, because then the KO is guaranteed)
Raikou would definitely become OU and would feature in the top ten with the unlocking of the nature
Now if only GameFreak had done this earlier, we would have never had to suspect Landorus :p

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Raikou would definitely become OU and would feature in the top ten with the unlocking of the nature
Now if only GameFreak had done this earlier, we would have never had to suspect Landorus :p

Woah woah woah, hang on a second there. You think the only reason Raikou isn't top 10 is because it can't run Timid? You think Landorus-I wouldn't be suspected because Raikou can KO it? You're making some big assumptions here. Sure it might rise a few places, but I'd be surprised if it even made the cut ou point for UU. Take what you just said about Raikou, and replace it with Choice Scarf Thundurus-T. By your logic, Thundurus-T destroys this core, and that it should be top 10 because of this reason. Lol.

 

[vyomov]

Woah woah woah, hang on a second there. You think the only reason Raikou isn't top 10 is because it can't run Timid? You think Landorus-I wouldn't be suspected because Raikou can KO it? You're making some big assumptions here. Sure it might rise a few places, but I'd be surprised if it even made the cut ou point for UU. Take what you just said about Raikou, and replace it with Choice Scarf Thundurus-T. By your logic, Thundurus-T destroys this core, and that it should be top 10 because of this reason. Lol.

Couple of reasons why Raikou>Thundurus-T for this situation:
a) Thundurus-T is slower and thus has to run Scarf, meaning it can be forced into one move(e.g Thunderbolt) and then taken advantage of by Landorus. Raikou outspeeds all three with Timid and hence doesn't need to run a scarf, thus not being locked
b) Thundurus-T has to rely on Focus Miss(oops I meant Blast) to beat out Ttar, while Raikou is under no such compulsion due to Aura Sphere and hence Raikou is much more reliable.
c) At +1 SpD(calm mind), Raikou can actually take a specs Keldeo Hydro Pump if needed and then proceed to OHKO the core while Thundurus-T can't boost up SpD and is thus OHKOed by Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump

The reason I said Raikou would rise is because it has:
a) Great coverage
b) Outspeeds major threats(e.g. Lati twins, Keldeo and Terrakion, etc)
c) Usable SpD

Agreed, top 10 was exaggerated but top 25 is a reasonable claim.

What if Azelf got Aura Sphere?
Azelf would become a good OU threat with Aura Sphere completing it's coverage. Azelf is anyways quite underrated(with excellent 125/125/115 attacking stats that most mons would dream for) but with Aura Sphere, Azelf could run a really good special set or an effective mixed set.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Couple of reasons why Raikou>Thundurus-T for this situation:
a) Thundurus-T is slower and thus has to run Scarf, meaning it can be forced into one move(e.g Thunderbolt) and then taken advantage of by Landorus. Raikou outspeeds all three with Timid and hence doesn't need to run a scarf, thus not being locked
b) Thundurus-T has to rely on Focus Miss(oops I meant Blast) to beat out Ttar, while Raikou is under no such compulsion due to Aura Sphere and hence Raikou is much more reliable.
c) At +1 SpD(calm mind), Raikou can actually take a specs Keldeo Hydro Pump if needed and then proceed to OHKO the core while Thundurus-T can't boost up SpD and is thus OHKOed by Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump

The reason I said Raikou would rise is because it has:
a) Great coverage
b) Outspeeds major threats(e.g. Lati twins, Keldeo and Terrakion, etc)
c) Usable SpD

Agreed, top 10 was exaggerated but top 25 is a reasonable claim.

Again, top 25 is still pushing it way too much. Now I'm not claiming that Thundurus-T can beat this core, but to say that Raikou beats this core is a joke.