The RU Viability Ranking Thread

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Agreeing with Silvershadow on the Vanilluxe and Spiritomb matters. Also, I already stated my opinions on Medicham.

Anyways. It's Rock-type time!

I know this has been brought up before, but I'd suggest Rhydon for Low or Mid A-Rank. Rhydon is pretty fucking awesome atm in RU. He is easily one of the best Stealth Rock setters in RU, as he has amazing bulk, and can check a lot of physical threats such as Absol, Entei, and a bunch of others, and can thus easily set up SR. With maximum investment into defense, even Crawdaunt's Waterfall is not OHKOing it. Rhydon is very flexible with his EV's and you can tailor the EV's to your team's needs; hell he can go for a specially defensive EV spread to check things like Galvantula and Manectric! Rhydon also has a great offensive typing, giving it STAB EdgeQuake coverage, and its high Attack also allow it to hit solidly hard. Rhydon is also an amazing wallbreaker with CB thanks to this, and if you're not looking for a tank, you can just use his pure power and coverage to break down walls for days. RP Rhydon is something I've tried as well (along with Golurk), and it's an incredible sweeper thanks to EdgeQuake coverage and high Attack. It's kinda hard to set up, but once you grab the boost, you're golden. In addition, its immunity to Thunder Wave only sweetens the deal. While its weaknesses to Grass and Water are a rather crippling flaws, those are easily patched up with the use of teammates (ahem Roselia), and Rhydon is just a really good Pokemon, and as of now I definitely think he's worthy of A-Rank.

I'd also suggest Omastar for Top B-Rank. This thing is absolutely phenomenal in the sweeping department. It's not that hard to grab a Smash boost, by coming in on something like Entei or Emboar choice-locked, and once Omastar grabs a boost, it can very easily sweep a team. Between Surf, Ice Beam, and HP Grass, Omastar attains perfect coverage, and with just hazard support alone the whole team is liable to go down. With a Timid nature, not many things can outspeed it (iirc not even Scarf Rotom-C outspeeds it), and it can just destroy everything. Overall Omastar is easily one amazing sweeper in RU and should be Top B imo.

 

[Gary]

I don't see any reason as to why Mesprit shouldn't be in Mid A-Rank. That thing is incredibly versatile, and it never fails in giving me trouble. The Offensive SR set is always a pain to deal with because it always threatens most of Stealth Rockers that I use, such as Golurk, Rhydon, and Druddigon with Ice Beam. The offensive Calm Mind set is extremely destructive late game, because it's high natural bulk and power makes it quite a pain to deal with. Ever since Mesprit was featured in the next best thing thread, I have been seeing CB Mesprit everywhere, and it's such a pain to deal with. The Specs set has pretty much zero switch-ins as well. I feel like Mesprit is often overlooked by a lot of players, and it shouldn't, because Mesprit is actually really good.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Rhydon should stay B. It is currently having a lot of issues regarding being worn down over time. Even though it can survive some impressive attacks they still take a large chunk of Rhydon's health out. Like sure it can survive Crawdaunt's Waterfall with full EVs but you will never actually run full defensive EVs because its a tank, that and its dying pn the next turn anyway. Spikes are also becoming rather ubiquitous and Rhydon really hates Spikes because it has no recovery. Everything has some way to hit Rhydon really hard because if all of its weaknesses, leaving it with more than half the metagame being able to just plow through it. Basically, if Rhydon switches too much, its not going to last long. Rhydon (still) has too many flaws to make it into A rank, Top B is fine.

 

[ss234]

Honestly, if aggron is A then so should rhydon. Rhydon has rather similar flaws-some very large weaknesses to common attacking types, it's slow-but once it gets in it can do a lot of damage. It is the most physically bulky poke in the game, and it counters loads of relevant mons-including entei, birds, normal types, absol aggron(watch out for cb low kick ofc) and loads of other physical attackers as well by virtue of its ridiculous bulk. CB and rp sets are also very dangerous-the cb set doesn't actually have any 1 counter, while rp is an incredibly potent late game sweeper, and LO rhydon hits like a truck as well, but can change moves obviously. So ye despite rhydon's weaknesses, it's a rlly good mon thanks to excellent STAB's, incredible bulk with eviolite and solid power.

Edit: It's also far too manly for b.

 

[Mack the Knife]

Spiritomb should not be low s. It has some p huge flaws-unable to do much back to aggron / durant etc. offensive set faces stiff competition from absol(imo absol is better on offensive teams because giving aggron / klinklang / durant free switch ins is rlly bad) and is slow. Defensive sets are v good, but it still has flaws-no reliable recovery, is hit by all entry hazards, and again still lets aggron / durant in for free-both of which are rlly dangerous for stall teams. Tomb is good, but it's not as good / easy to fit on teams as rotom-c, sceptile or entei for example.

Also vanilluxe should stay where it is. I cannot think of a good reason to use it over glaceon apart from autotomize, and that set isn't even that good considering having mono-ice as your typing makes it ridiculously hard to set-up. D is fine for vanilluxe imo, since it has a very small niche.

Just would like to say thanks for showing me your opinion! Now that I look at it more closely, Vanilluxe should stay where it is.

 

[Oddish is the best]

I'd like to nominate Vileplume for Top C Rank. Vileplume is actually pretty decent in the current meta as it is the only grass/poison sweeper (par Victreebel) and it boosts pretty decent bulk. It is also nice for being super effective against all regenerator pokemon except for Ammongus which it can still 3HKO. This gives it someone what of a niche in countering common regenerator cores that are common in the meta (Tangrowth+Slowking Ammonguss+Alomomola etc) and she also outspeeds all of them. Furthermore, Vileplume has secondary poison typing which allows it to absorb toxic spikes which really only Quillfish and Ammonguss do in the meta right now. Plumes secondary poison typing also allows it to predict switches into fire types and launch sludge bomb which deals quite a bit with life orb against fire types like Typh,Emboar,Entei,Moltres as well as just giving it more coverage. However, she is plagued by her low speed that forces her to switch out when a threat comes in that is faster. Also, steel types are a problem since Vileplume has very limited coverage. However, in my 70+ games with Vileplume this month, I've found that she has surpassed my expectations and done very well especially with good predections.

I personally run this set on Vileplume (That's quite similar to the Smoogon guide I know)
Item: Life orb
Ev's: 92 HP 252 SPA 164 Speed
Ability: Effect Spore (Since not in sun)
Moves:
Sludge Bomb
Giga Drain
Moonlight
Sleep Powder
Nature: Modest

This set works actually pretty decent and I think Plume is the kind of 'mon that is a Top C rank Pokemon! Let me know what you think :)

 

[ss234]

Why would you use vileplume over offensive amoonguss? Unless you can provide some relevant calc's where vileplume is better than offensive amoonguss then I don't even think it should be listed tbh. D rank maybe at a push for vileplume imo-even if it does get a few key ko's over amoonguss, it's still for the most part outclassed as amoonguss has better bulk and regenerator.

 

[EonX]

Seems, I missed a lot in the past 3 days, so I'll try to cover everything:

Vanilluxe: Pretty much agreeing with everything stated. Vanilluxe struggles to stand out tbh. Offensively, it has to deal with Glaceon (more raw power) and Rotom-F (secondary STAB) in general while it has to compete against Wallrein (more bulk) and Glaceon (more raw power... again) defensively. Should stay in D.

Spiritomb: When you're giving a Steel-type a free switch-in on pretty much any move you use other than Will-O-Wisp (or Trick, but for the record, Aggron and Escavalier typically run CB themselves while Durant can at least make use of it) then that is pretty dang hindering. While it is fairly versatile (able to go physical, special, or defensive) and is pretty much the best spinblocker in the tier, it's basically like Kabutops. Tops is the best spinner, but it just screams for Grass-types to come in. Tomb is the best spinblocker, but it just screams for Steels to come in to setup or support their team. If Tops isn't Low-S, then I don't see why Tomb should be either.

Medicham: I think it's fine in Mid-B tbh. Sure, it has a hell of a lot of power and is a solid revenge killer, but it can't spam HJK with safety until Ghost-types or any random Pokemon with Protect (Alomomola, Clefable, etc.) are removed due to its serious side effect. Meanwhile, Gallade, a Pokemon who has the same typing, doesn't have this issue since Close Combat just drops defenses, but doesn't punish Gallade for 50% of its max HP upon a miss. Gallade also has Justified. This means that it doesn't get totally screwed if Spiritomb comes in on a STAB move. Medicham can just be hit by Pursuit for free since it really doesn't have a move to overwhelm Spiritomb. Meanwhile, Gallade's Justified discourages Pursuit due to the possible Attack boost that would result in Gallade being able to overpower Spiritomb. As long as Gallade and Spiritomb are around, I think Medicham should stay in Mid-B.

Rhydon: I'd be cool with Low-A for Rhydon. I think its 4x weaknesses to Water and Grass are pretty bad when Slowking and Sceptile are 2 of the most common Pokemon in the tier, but if this thing gets in, it will likely cause some pretty serious damage to the opposing team. The tank set is a fantastic pivot into physical attacks for teams that want to maintain offensive pressure while the CB set just destroys stuff a la Aggron. The RP set is hard to set up, but it can easily catch the opponent by surprise and turn the tide of the match in a heart beat. I think Mid-A is a little too high due to its flaws, but they shouldn't hold it back from Low-A. It's really good in this meta, especially if supported properly.

Omastar: This is a bit touchy imo. While Omastar is a fantastic sweeper, it doesn't get easy opportunities to do so outside of Entei and Emboar (the latter of which can just predict the switch-in with Superpower) Lanturn is also a decent check even after a boost due to its special bulk and resistance to Surf and Ice Beam. (HP Grass is super effective, but it's also Omastar's weakest move) Lanturn can KO with Volt Switch or paralyze with T-Wave. Overall, I think its sweeping ability is enough to make Omastar Top-B, but I'll play around with it a little before finalizing this opinion.

Vileplume: Pretty much agreeing with Silvershadow here. Vileplume also has to compete with Roselia as a defensive Grass-type as well. Amoonguss has overall bulk and Regenerator while Roselia has amazing special bulk, Spikes, and Natural Cure. Even if you try to use Chlorophyll on a Sunny Day team, there's Victreebel to compete with who has higher speed and better mixed offenses. Seems to me that Vileplume just gets outclassed at anything it tries to do.

Hope I got everything. Will edit this if I missed anything.

 

[Molk]

Alright, made two updates!

Rhydon up from top B rank ---> low A rank
Omastar up from mid B rank ---> top B rank

I could still see some controversy on where rhydon should be placed because of its lack of recovery and two 4x weaknesses. I decided to move it up for now, if anyone strongly opposes though, i'll consider moving it back down to top B rank where it was before.

About Omastar: i kinda agree that while omastar has a lot of destructive potential that it has a bit of trouble setting up in the current except against specific threats. But there's a different set that makes me want to push for top B: its hazards set. Omastar is pretty good at setting up hazards early game because of its good physical bulk along with decent resistances and a nice special attack to abuse its scald with. Because of the aforementioned bulk, i often find it pretty easy to get SR+a few layers of spikes up every match, and because of its typing, omastar definitely has more defensive utility than Smeargle and Crustle: its main competition for setting SR+Spikes, who either have terrible defenses, a lack of important resistances, or both. Meanwhile, Omastar can counter things such as Entei and Swellow, among other things because of its typing.

 

[Molk]

Hey, sorry for double posting. I know its usually frowned upon in the forums but i guess its alright here since the smogon forums have been down for a while and there really hasn't been much time for anyone to post between then and now. Anyways, this is a proposal i thought of during the forum downtime and i wanted some more thoughts on it (might add some more proposals later, but we'll see).

Proposing Gardevoir be moved down from mid B rank to either low B rank or top C rank: Really thinking about it i simply don't think Gardevoir deserves a spot in mid B rank anymore. There are many reasons for this: the most significant of which is that Gardevoir's niche as a check to Nidoqueen that can even threaten a countersweep is irrelevant now that Nidoqueen moved back up to her spot in UU, which hurts Gardevoir's viability quite a bit of course. Gardevoir also has (and really always had) quite a bit of trouble with the common Pursuit users in the tier such as Spiritomb and Escavalier: even moreso than the majority of other Psychic-types in the tier, as Gardevoir is so physically frail she usually ends up being KO'd by Pursuit whether she stays in or not tbh, while some other Psychics might be able to take at least one Pursuit before going down. Gardevoir Struggles with some other common moves/pokemon in RU as well, such as the prevelance of physical priority in many forms. Lastly, Gardevoir recieves quite a bit of competition from the other Psychic-types available in RU at the moment, only having a few perks such as trace to seperate herself. Most of the time i'd consider Mesprit, Sigilyph, or even the rare Jynx before Gardevoir as an offensive Psychic-type in this metagame. Of course, Gardevoir still isn't a bad Pokemon by any means, and she definitely still has some perks over the other Psychics such as Will-O-Wisp, Trace, the ability to Wishpass, and even a slightly higher Special Attack stat, so i don't think she should move below mid C rank at worst.

So what do you think? Is Gardevoir still worthy of B rank? Or do you agree that she should be moved down in the current metagame?

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I'd be fine with moving Gardevoir down to low B. It did lose viability quite a bit when Nidoqueen left the tier since it can't use the Sheer Force boost to its advantage. It has a lot of competition as an offensive Psychic-type from Mesprit, Sigilyph, Musharna, etc. as mentioned, which gives less of a reason to be used. Its insane fraility not only makes it vulnerable to Pursuit, but this means Gardevoir can't reliably check things it could such as Hitmonlee and Gallade (lol its counterpart), which can be a real hindrance. Gardevoir's bulk compared to things like Mesprit is much worse where it counts, which is kinda a bad point. It's still powerful and the special bulk is pretty nice, although I'd be cool with Low B for it.

Also i'll reiterate but put a lock on Sandslash so that its current rank cannot be changed.

 

[Magcargo]

I actually think gardevoir should go down to mid C-Rank. Gardevoir is the jack of all trades master of none kind of psychic type, which isn't a good trait to have in a tier full of psychic types. Gardevoir is outclassed by most psychic types in the tier, which includes slowking, jynx, musharna, sigilyph, uxie ETC. Like ScraftyIsTheBest stated, gardevoir's low physical defense not only makes is more vulnerable to pursuit, but also makes it unable to check things like gallade, which most other psychic types can check. Wishpassing is done better by gallade, who has a better defensive typing. I honestly see no reason to use gardevoir anymore, which is why it should go down to Mid C-Rank.

I also think hariyama should go up to top C-Rank or low B-Rank. Hariyama is one of those pokemon who gets bad rap because noobs use it improperly. Hariyama is ridiculously powerful with a guts boost and it can actually 2HKO certain variants of uxie and alomomola with facade and close combat respectively after Stealth rocks. Several other fighting types eclipse it, but its Sheer power makes it Top C-rank or low B-Rank worthy

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I also think hariyama should go up to top C-Rank or low B-Rank. Hariyama is one of those pokemon who gets bad rap because noobs use it improperly. Hariyama is ridiculously powerful with a guts boost and it can actually 2HKO certain variants of uxie and alomomola with facade and close combat respectively after Stealth rocks. Several other fighting types eclipse it, but its Sheer power makes it Top C-rank or low B-Rank worthy

I'd support this notion, since Hariyama has the nice ability to benefit from being inflicted by status and is a powerhouse, but I'm posting here because I'd like Primeape to follow suit as well. Primeape has the advantage over the other Fighting-types in the tier thanks to its access to U-turn, which gives it a good niche as a fast and strong scout. This also means it can attract things like Uxie and Spiritomb, but also U-turn out to gain momentum and resort to a proper teammate such as Absol, and this along with a Choice Scarf means Primeape is an excellent momentum gainer. Primeape also has the nice advantage as a Scarf Fighter vs. Emboar with its better Speed and U-turn, which means it can also revenge kill things like Aerodactyl and Swellow as well as opposing Braviary and Rotom-C. It can also run a Life Orb set and also has a nice tool in Encore to cripple Pokemon such as Steelix by locking them into Stealth Rock, and following suit with its decent power. It hits somewhat hard too. I'd like to see both Hariyama and Primeape go up a bit, since they're both actually pretty decent choices as Fighting-types in this metagame.

 

[SilentVerse]

Why would you use vileplume over offensive amoonguss? Unless you can provide some relevant calc's where vileplume is better than offensive amoonguss then I don't even think it should be listed tbh. D rank maybe at a push for vileplume imo-even if it does get a few key ko's over amoonguss, it's still for the most part outclassed as amoonguss has better bulk and regenerator.

I haven't used offensive Vileplume in like a year, but even back then, I had considered using offensive Amoonguss over offensive Vileplume. Granted, while the lack of Regenerator was a big part of the reason why I decided to use Vileplume over Amoonguss, there's still a lot of key reasons that Vileplume is superior offensively than Amoonguss, the biggest of which is probably its Speed. While Vileplume is still hideously slow, it's Speed is definitely better than Amoonguss's, and Vileplume, unlike Amoonguss, actually outspeeds quite a few things of importance. For example, with that spread that Oddish is the best posted, Vileplume outspeeds everything up to min base 70s like Specially Defensive Magneton, which lets it outspeed almost all of the relevant defensive threats that it would want to outspeed (Cryogonal, Uxie, Qwilfish, and I GUESS defensive Rotom are about it I think?). Amoonguss, on the other hand, struggles to outspeed things such as Druddigon, Tangrowth, defensive Omastar, Clefable, and such; in fact, just to outspeed everything up to TANGROWTH, Amoonguss needs to run 164 Speed. Meanwhile, to outspeed Tangrowth, Vileplume only has to run 4 Speed EVs; the rest can go into HP to drastically increase Vileplume's bulk. And, the funny thing is, with Amoonguss's 92 HP / 252 SpA / 164 Spe spread and Vileplume's 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe spread, Vileplume is actually slightly bulkier physically and only marginally less bulky specially, while also being significantly stronger.

However, being slightly bulkier physically is obviously not worth the loss of Regenerator and Spore; where Vileplume actually shines is its ability to outspeed Lanturn, Poliwrath, offensive Tangrowth, Guts Hariyama, Sandslash, Clefable, Choice Band Aggron (well, the spread on-site at least...), and various other miscellaneous threats that Amoonguss is unable to really outspeed simply because it's so much slower than Vileplume. This particularly important in the case of offensive Tangrowth; because Amoonguss cannot outspeed it, it can't really answer it effectively, since Tangrowth will just put it to sleep . Vileplume, on the other hand, can switch into a resisted attack and then KO Tangrowth with Sludge Bomb. Furthermore, while Vileplume isn't THAT much stronger than Amoonguss, its power does allow it to do some cute things, such as potentially OHKO Typhlosion, and offensive Rotom after Stealth Rock (though granted this chance is p small, but...). So yeah, I wouldn't really say it's directly outclassed by Amoonguss per-se; it's more of a wallbreaker, while Amoonguss is more of an offensive tank I guess.

To conclude:

<~Honko> so basically vileplume is better if you wanna outspeed tangrowth or drudd
<~Honko> amoonguss is probably better if you don't care about speed

 

[branflakes]

A few things I would like to add about our cuddly fetus friend Duosion:

Experience has led me to believe it may belong in mid-high C or even low B rank, considering the other Pokemon in those tiers. I have had a lot of success using defensive Duosion on my mixed hail team, and it acts as somewhat of a defensive Clefable. While its maxed eviolite-boosted defense doesn't quite match that of Musharna, it still has the ability to tank quite a few notable physical threats. Most importantly, it's immune to hazards, hail and status, which seem to make it clearly superior as a psychic tank in RU.

Here's a bit of concrete justification for using Duosion as an effective hail tank.

252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Duosion: 268-320 (80.48 - 96.09%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz: (63.96 - 75.67%)
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther Bug Bite: (85.28 - 100.9%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash: (77.77 - 91.89%)
252 Atk Flying Gem Archeops Acrobatics: (61.56 - 72.97%)

Tanking these threats isn't enough by itself to save Duosion, but its ability to deal back heavy damage or KOs with 125 SpA (uninvested) psychic and hp fighting is what makes it truly viable in the RU metagame. However, one of its biggest flaws is the presence of Spiritomb because it can't touch the thing.

252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Pursuit: (36.63 - 43.84%) - This actually allows Duosion to hail stall (yay) the opponent's Spiritomb by spamming recover. I think that's pretty awesome.

 

[DittoCrow]

Gardevoir should be moved to Top C Rank imo. Its physical defense really holds it back, especially because the usage of Pursuit users has increased. What sucks about Gardevoir is that there are so many other Psychic-types with a ton of utility, and Gardevoir is easy to overlook. It's not a good idea to use multiple Psychic-types on one team because of Pursuit trappers and other similar, common weaknesses, so Gardevoir really has a hard time fitting onto teams and succeeding (especially now that Nidoqueen is gone). However, Trace is really good and it has a good movepool, so low B would also be fine.

Hariyama is a really good breaker. It 2HKOes most Pokemon in the tier with Close Combat or Facade, and can be a good revenge killer with Fake Out + Bullet Punch. It has a lot of potential to wear defensive teams down and get a KO or two vs offensive teams, which rarely have a solid switch-in. This opens up the path for other sweepers to clean up, especially fellow Fighting-types like Hitmonlee. Hariyama is definitely a great Pokemon when utilized correctly so it should be Mid B in my opinion.

Vileplume is viable btw because of what SV said and it also has Aromatherapy. I forgot why but I was actually considering it for one of my teams (which I never completed) so I can't really say much, but I do think it has a niche. I wouldn't mind it getting ranked.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

I think Escavalier should be moved to Low S. There are way too many Pokemon carrying Fire moves right now and this makes Escavalier fairly easy to eliminate from the match, which mitigates one of the main reasons to use it in the first place - multiple switch in opportunities. It also really doesn't help that many Pokemon that Escavalier should be hitting and OHKOing, such as Slowking and Tangrowth, can do the same thing back to it with a well placed HP Fire or Fire Blast. Even random Pokemon are starting to run some sort of Fire attack to get past some of their common checks, most notably Aerodactyl, Druddigon, Amoonguss, and there are also many Pokemon that have always ran Fire moves that create iffy situations including Absol, and of course, the STAB users. It also gives an easy switch into Qwilfish, which can just lay down Spikes in its face, and other Pokemon such as Aggron.

I don't think Escavalier is on quite the same level as Entei, Sceptile, or Uxie, as it lacks the versatility of them and can be quite easy to eliminate from the match with a Fire move and wear down as a result of that speed. It still threatens a lot of teams, but not as much as other Pokemon in Mid S, and as a result I think it should be dropped to Low S. I just don't see it threaten teams nearly as much as the others.

As for Gardevoir, I never really understood why it was Mid B after Nidoqueen left, as out of all the Pursuit bait Pokemon out there, it stands out as one of the more helpless. Mesprit also gives it a lot of competition with its superior bulk and Ice Beam/U-turn, so Top C seems fitting. Hariyama think deserves Low B, but everything about it has already been covered imo.

 

[DittoCrow]

Torterra to Top/Mid B. Torterra is a really good Pokemon in this metagame. It has great utility, being able to set up Stealth Rock, recover with Synthesis/Leech Seed, hit hard with Wood Hammer / Earthquake (it's a great tank), and destroy Volt Switch users, especially Rotom-C who destroys every Pokemon that is immune to Volt Switch with Leaf Storm (except for Camerupt, who lacks recovery). Others include Lanturn and Manectric (who can't 2HKO SpDef tort with Overheat or Flamethrower). It is also one of the only few Pokemon that isn't 2HKOed by Aggron's Head Smash. Furthermore, SpDef Torterra counters Kabutops and Sandslash, and can take Cryogonal's Ice Beam and OHKO it with Wood Hammer or Stone Edge. This makes it a very solid SR user. It even has more utility in that it checks threats like Slowking and Galvantula (though it is 2HKOed by Bug Buzz). I've mainly been talking about the SpDef set so far, but Torterra can run many other sets too, such as physical defense and Rock Polish, which are also very good. The main problem with SpDef Torterra is that it has 4 moveslot syndrome, so if you don't run Stone Edge, Sigilyph and Moltres get a free switch in. Torterra is also hard to use vs BlizzSpam teams, since it gives Pokemon like Glaceon a free switch-in. I would talk more about Torterra but it's late and I have more Pokemon to nominate!

Exeggutor to Mid B. Exeggutor is simply a boss. With Lum Berry + Harvest, it's basically immune to status, meaning that it can even beat Smeargle with a bit of luck (I posted a log and the set in the np stage 16 thread). It's also one of the best counters to defensive Slowking, as well as many other bulky waters like Poliwrath, Lanturn, and Qwilfish. With Psychic, it also defeats defensive Grass-types like Tangrowth and Amoonguss, which are always annoying to switch in to. It even makes Emboar cautious of switching in due to Psychic. Exeggutor is just a great answer to a lot of threats with this set, which is why I think it belongs in Mid B. It just has crippling weaknesses to U-turn and Pursuit, which can actually be overcome with Sleep Powder.

Walrein to Low A.. Walrein is broken imo. If it sets up and you don't have a Rest mon like Poliwrath or Spiritomb to PP stall it, or a Magic Guard/Overcoat mon, you have like a 5% chance to win. Most of its other counters like Cinccino, Klinklang, and even Escavalier can be taken down by Walrein's support (usually hazards ESPECIALLY TSPIKES), making it easy for Walrein to stall out teams mid- late-game. It's pretty much unbeatable when it gets a Sub and the conditions are right. The only reason why it shouldn't be much higher is due to the extreme amount of support it needs through Snover, hazards, etc.

Checks and counters such as Slowking/Emboar/Entei/Escavalier/Spiritomb etc. are found on nearly every team. Thus, most teams are naturally prepared for Jynx. Sleep Talk users and Pursuit users are much more common, so Jynx isn't really a huge threat to many teams anymore, but I do think it can do a lot of damage when used correctly. I just haven't seen that, I guess? It also has 4mss which is really troublesome and makes it less of a threat. Not really set on this decision yet, but I think it should be moved to Top B. Kinda want some more discussion on Jynx.

Swellow to Top B. Swellow is one of the best late-game sweepers in the tier. It hits incredibly hard and even has blistering Speed, allowing it to check threats such as Sceptile and Durant. Anyone who's used Swellow knows how easy it is for it to clean up teams late-game or serve as a revenge killer to things like Galvantula or weakened foes with Quick Attack.

 

[EonX]

Time to cover stuff:

Gardevoir: Top-C for Gardevoir is fine. While it can do many things, it does face a lot of competition in every role it tries to fill. It can work really well if given the right support and its versatility is noteworthy, but there are many more specialized Psychic-types for pretty much any role you would want Gardevoir to fill.

Hariyama: I'm really on the fence about this one. I know it shouldn't be Mid-C, but I have an issue with figuring out whether to move it to low B or Top C. Ultimately I think Low B is ok. I can't agree with moving it all the way to Mid B due to the fact that Gallade and Medicham are around. The former gives Hariyama direct competition as a wallbreaker while Medicham is able to fill the added role of revenge killer with its Scarf set in exchange for being next to helpless against Spiritomb and most bulky Psychic-types (most of which Gallade and Hariyama can at least heavily dent) There's also the longevitiy issue. Since Hariyama requires a status orb to gain much of its power, its lifespan is much shorter than that of Gallade and even Medicham. Low B is cool since it can dent a lot of things, but its issues with longevitiy and Speed do hold it back a bit.

Duosion: As I'm not really experienced with using Hail myself (especially Hail Stall) I can't say a whole lot about this one. That said, I don't really think bulk has ever been Duosion's issue. Duosion's issue is its usable coverage when compared to other Psychic-types. When looking at Psychic-types that don't get Focus Blast (Jynx, Uxie, and Mesprit are the 3 others that pop to mind instantly) the other 3 get other useful coverage options other than HP Fighting. Uxie has Thunderbolt, Giga Drain, and a host of support moves. Jynx has a secondary STAB in Ice. Mesprit has BoltBeam. Speaking of BoltBeam, I even feel Mesprit outclasses Duosion on a Hail team because of one key element: access to Blizzard. Mesprit still has solid bulk, a good base 105 Special Attack stat, but unlike Duosion, it can actually put most Pursuit users in a bind with Blizzard or U-turn. If anything, I'd say mid-high C on Duosion.

Escavalier: Moving it down to Low S is probably best. While it's no secret that Escavalier is a great wallbreaker and can tank Blizzards easier than most other Pokemon can, the fact that there are so many Pokemon carrying Fire-type moves hurts it enough to drop it to Low S. There's the easy ones like Entei, Emboar, Typhlosion, and Moltres. But then there are the ones that use a Fire move for coverage. Slowking, Tangrowth, Tauros, Manectric, Rotom-C, Absol, and Druddigon are all perfectly viable and capable of running one of HP Fire, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, or Overheat respectively on most of their common sets. Escavalier is a big threat, no doubt about it, but there are also plenty of Pokemon that are capable of handling it right now. (heck, I just named 11 lol)

Edit: Gah, missed DC's post. Time to cover it now:

Torterra: I'll try to finish what you started here DC. Terra's a great Pokemon right now. Its SpDef set is one of the best tanking/walling sets in RU right now. It takes on pretty much any Electric-type in the tier and comes out on top. It has STAB EQ to make Fire-types think twice about coming in and the SR it lays on its own deters Ice- and Flying-types from coming in as much. It can also utilize a more offensive approach to the tanking strategy thanks to its solid Attack stat and access to Stone Edge to directly threaten Ice- and Flying-types. Its Rock Polish set is a bit like Rhydon, only Terra has more overall bulk and marginaally better Speed. I'd go with Top B because it has versatility on both offense and defense. On offense, it can break down walls with an Offensive Tank or CB set or it can choose to go the sweeping route with Rock Polish. On defense, Torterra can be EVed to better handle special attackers or physical attackers depending on the support that it's given.

Exeggutor: Don't really have much experience with it one way or the other, so I'll have to leave this to others to discuss.

Walrein: This guy is a pain in the neck. I'd definitely go for Low A, maybe higher. Once it gets a Sub up, you're pretty much done. Almost any defensive Pokemon that lacks Toxic is pretty much inviting Walrein to come in and set up a Sub. It does need a lot of specialized support to function at its best, but Walrein is easily worth that specialized support because it flat out wins games with it.

Jynx: Sorry to disappoint you DC, but this is another Pokemon I don't have a lot of experience with :(

Swellow: I'm not too sure about Top B, but Swellow should at least move up to Mid B at worst. As DC mentioned, Swellow is a great late-game cleaner and emergency revenge killer. The only issue I really have with it is its longevity. Swellow is so incredibly frail that you really just get one shot to pull off the late-game sweep/clean/whatever you want to call it. The fact that Swellow also needs a Status Orb hurts it a little too imo (though this does make it immune to Sleep and paralysis once activated, which is a plus for sure) I'd be ok with Top B, but I'd prefer Mid B for now.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah I'll throw in my two cents.

On Gardevoir, yeah after some though I'd be cool with Top C for this thing. As said by people before, including myself, it's the jack of all trades, master of none Psychic-type, which is not exactly good when there's things like Mesprit, Sigilyph, Musharna, Uxie, etc.

Hariyama should definitely be Low B imo, since he has the nice niche of being a Guts attacker, and he can hit really hard with what is basically a CB boost, but also have the freedom of moves. He has nice coverage in CC, Facade, and Stone Edge, which means he's rather difficult to wall. His stupid HP allows him to take hits decently too, which means he has enough bulk to endure a hit and smash everything hard. That said, yeah, as EonX said it's rather easy to wear down from burn/poison damage, which can really hurt it. It also has competition, although it has a significant enough of a niche to stand out.

Duosion seems cool in High/Mid C, it has the nice Endeavor set that can be annoying, also it has Trick Room to turn the tide of the match, especially if you're running stuff like Escavalier on your hail team.

I haven't used Escavalier too much in this meta, though I'd be okay with Low S. Its Speed cripples it pretty insanely that while undeniably an absolute top threat, it's not quite up to par with Entei and stuff. It's a top threat for sure, although Fire moves are really relevant in this meta.

Torterra seems really interesting, I'll go give it a swing and come back with my thoughts.

I'd throw Exeggutor in at least Low B, I used the Sunny Day set alongside Emboar the other day, and I love it. It has enough speed in the sun to be able to sweep, and it can incapacitate something with Sleep Powder (and with the 5th gen mechs that's literally a free kill), and it can fire some really powerful SolarBeams and Psyshocks. TR Eggy is also pretty cool to also be able to sweep. I haven't used Lum+Harvest, but DC's post makes it seem really appealing. For now though, I'd throw it in Low B at least.

Like with Torterra, I haven't used Jynx in RU very much, although I may go playtest it later.

I'd be cool with Walrein to Low A, he's my favorite hail abuser to use. Walrein can single handedly change the tide of the match with a grand total of one turn. Once Toxic Spikes are up and Walrein gets behind a Substitute, you're golden. It can singlehandedly win the game by stalling with SubProtect. Walrein is also good offensively; the Choice Scar set is an excellent Blizzspammer/revenge killer and has the advantage of Water typing that gives it a neutrality to Fire as well as STAB Surf and Brine. Scarf Walrein also has the bonus of surprise factor.

I'd throw Swellow in at least Mid B, since it's an amazing cleaner with Guts boosted Facade hitting really hard, while it has speed that even outpaces Scaptile. Only problem, as EonX said, is that it's easy to wear down, although being immune to paralysis/sleep is awesome. I'd throw it in mid.

Also,

I'd support this notion, since Hariyama has the nice ability to benefit from being inflicted by status and is a powerhouse, but I'm posting here because I'd like Primeape to follow suit as well. Primeape has the advantage over the other Fighting-types in the tier thanks to its access to U-turn, which gives it a good niche as a fast and strong scout. This also means it can attract things like Uxie and Spiritomb, but also U-turn out to gain momentum and resort to a proper teammate such as Absol, and this along with a Choice Scarf means Primeape is an excellent momentum gainer. Primeape also has the nice advantage as a Scarf Fighter vs. Emboar with its better Speed and U-turn, which means it can also revenge kill things like Aerodactyl and Swellow as well as opposing Braviary and Rotom-C. It can also run a Life Orb set and also has a nice tool in Encore to cripple Pokemon such as Steelix by locking them into Stealth Rock, and following suit with its decent power. It hits somewhat hard too. I'd like to see both Hariyama and Primeape go up a bit, since they're both actually pretty decent choices as Fighting-types in this metagame

 

[Nozzle]

Doing something strange here.

Nominating Dewgong for Top-D.

Dewgong is in almost every aspect a slightly inferior Walrein.
Walrein: 110/80/90/95/90/65
Dewgong 90/70/80/70/95/70
It has worse bulk on both sides, worse attacking stats and only a tiny bit faster. It's only niche is, maybe you've guessed it, alongside Walrein so you have a double hail-stalling core. It also has Aqua Ring to be EXTRA annoying but it has 4mss so it's hard to fit in. One day I thought "Why the fuck not" and it actually did a decent job. I wouldn't see it being higher than Low-C because they both share the same counters but together with Walrein it can make your opponents pull their hair out in hopelesness.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Please enlighten me on why you would ever want to use Dewgong over Lapras, who has better stats in literally every area than Dewgong. Lapras is the better Water / Ice Pokemon and has much more utility in general. Even Dewgong's niche as a double Ice Body staller with Walrein is not enough to justify its use, and if that's what you're looking for then you should be using Glaceon with Walrein instead, since Glaceon also poses a legitimate threat with its high 130 Special Attack and much more threatening Blizzard. Honestly, I don't think Dewgong should be listed.

Also, I'd notion for Roselia to be moved up to Top B. Roselia is really good atm and is easily one of the best bulky spikers RU has to offer. It has access to both Spikes and Toxic Spikes, which can be excellent support, making many Pokemon much easier to deal with (Toxic Spikes are really good in RU atm, something in Roselia's favor). Roselia is also an excellent special wall, being able to handle a number of special attackers, such as Sceptile, Galvantula, Omastar, Lilligant, etc. with its excellent special bulk and awesome defensive typing. Roselia isn't a sitting duck either; it has a good 100 Special Attack and Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb to deal some real damage to the threats it aims to take on. Poliwrath+Roselia is also super good defensively, and can wall almost everything in the metagame. Overall I think Roselia is just insanely good in RU atm and should definitely be Top B.

 

[EonX]

Dewgong: Kinda have to agree with SiTB here. Honestly, I'm no good with stalling, but if I was going to try to stack 2 Ice Body Pokemon together, I'd pick Walrein for sure and I'd pick Glaceon to back it up in a heartbeat thanks to its offensive presence which will often times force the switch you need to setup a Sub.

Roselia: I'd be for Roselia moving to Top B right now. It has access to both forms of Spikes and is a solid special wall. Her base 100 Special Attack allows her to fend off most things that get hit neutrally by one of her STAB moves and she has very good synergy with most physical walls (Poliwrath in particular) I've actually been using her in conjunction with Rhydon lately and the two work very well together (just make sure to cover Ground- and Fighting-types!)

The Dewgong subject made me think of something. I'd like to bring up the idea of moving Glaceon to Low-A. Glaceon has the single strongest Blizzard in the tier with its base 130 Special Attack, but it can also act as a mini-Walrein of sorts with a Subtect set. The fact that it can viably run a more defensive set as an offensive Pokemon adds to its versatility. Glaceon's Specs set is ridiculously powerful and it has the same Speed stat as Emboar, meaning it can run a Scarf set to decent success as well thanks to the raw power of its Blizzard. Finally, there's Glaceon's Subtect set which may seem outclassed by Walrein at first, but the sheer offensive presence of Glaceon often makes it easier to get that first Sub in as the opponent will likely switch in fear of a Blizzard.

 

[Oddish is the best]

I haven't used offensive Vileplume in like a year, but even back then, I had considered using offensive Amoonguss over offensive Vileplume. Granted, while the lack of Regenerator was a big part of the reason why I decided to use Vileplume over Amoonguss, there's still a lot of key reasons that Vileplume is superior offensively than Amoonguss, the biggest of which is probably its Speed. While Vileplume is still hideously slow, it's Speed is definitely better than Amoonguss's, and Vileplume, unlike Amoonguss, actually outspeeds quite a few things of importance. For example, with that spread that Oddish is the best posted, Vileplume outspeeds everything up to min base 70s like Specially Defensive Magneton, which lets it outspeed almost all of the relevant defensive threats that it would want to outspeed (Cryogonal, Uxie, Qwilfish, and I GUESS defensive Rotom are about it I think?). Amoonguss, on the other hand, struggles to outspeed things such as Druddigon, Tangrowth, defensive Omastar, Clefable, and such; in fact, just to outspeed everything up to TANGROWTH, Amoonguss needs to run 164 Speed. Meanwhile, to outspeed Tangrowth, Vileplume only has to run 4 Speed EVs; the rest can go into HP to drastically increase Vileplume's bulk. And, the funny thing is, with Amoonguss's 92 HP / 252 SpA / 164 Spe spread and Vileplume's 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe spread, Vileplume is actually slightly bulkier physically and only marginally less bulky specially, while also being significantly stronger.

However, being slightly bulkier physically is obviously not worth the loss of Regenerator and Spore; where Vileplume actually shines is its ability to outspeed Lanturn, Poliwrath, offensive Tangrowth, Guts Hariyama, Sandslash, Clefable, Choice Band Aggron (well, the spread on-site at least...), and various other miscellaneous threats that Amoonguss is unable to really outspeed simply because it's so much slower than Vileplume. This particularly important in the case of offensive Tangrowth; because Amoonguss cannot outspeed it, it can't really answer it effectively, since Tangrowth will just put it to sleep . Vileplume, on the other hand, can switch into a resisted attack and then KO Tangrowth with Sludge Bomb. Furthermore, while Vileplume isn't THAT much stronger than Amoonguss, its power does allow it to do some cute things, such as potentially OHKO Typhlosion, and offensive Rotom after Stealth Rock (though granted this chance is p small, but...). So yeah, I wouldn't really say it's directly outclassed by Amoonguss per-se; it's more of a wallbreaker, while Amoonguss is more of an offensive tank I guess.

To conclude:

<~Honko> so basically vileplume is better if you wanna outspeed tangrowth or drudd
<~Honko> amoonguss is probably better if you don't care about speed

Thank you for adding to my post! I agree a lot with your conclusion as Vileplume is great for outspeeding Slowking,Tangrowth, and Ammongus. I think that this gives Vileplume a niche worthy of a rank.

 

[Magcargo]

Nominating volbeat for Top D-Rank
I know that comparing pokemon is a horrible reason, but volbeat is basically a whimsicott/liepard with a SR weakness. Its BP set is good, but like ninjask, gets taunted/phazed out by common pokemon.

As for hail pokemon, honko did a good job at explain why they shouldn't be in A rank.

Let's not get carried away with the Hail hype. Any mon that relies on Hail as heavily as Glaceon and Walrein do is requiring a huge amount of team support. Snover is much worse than things like Smeargle or Dual Screens Uxie who provide similar levels of support, but in a way that is useful to any Pokemon, not just Ice-types. Remember that last time Hail was allowed in RU, Snover didn't even have enough usage to stay out of NU. Hail is not a common battle condition, it's a huge support burden, and you should be factoring that into the rankings. I think that every dedicated Hail mon should be 2 ranks below its performance due to how much support it needs. On that note, I'd put Glaceon in B or C, Rotom-F in B or C, and Walrein in C or D. Glaceon is excellent in hail but pretty bad out of it. Rotom-F is not quite as good as Glaceon in hail, but it's still a reasonably useful mon even without hail. Stallrein has always been overrated; even if we assumed hail was free I wouldn't put it higher than B, but it is 100% reliant on hail to not be a wasted teamslot, so C or D is where it belongs.

Let's not start putting every hail mon in A and B please when they require more dedicated support than things like Linoone, Scyther, and Swellow.