Tier Shift Viability Ranking

[Tsumugi Kotokobuki]

Tier Shift Viability Rankings Thread
You should be familiar with these by now, if not, the point is to rank a variety of Tier Shift legal pokemon into “tiers” based on how good they are in the metagame. You’re encouraged to post your thoughts as to which tier each pokemon should fall under, and to speak up if you disagree with any of the current placements.

NOTE: Pokemon are alphabetically ordered in each “tier”.
NOTE: We have ranked every pokemon above 3.14 Tier Shift usage in both the 1850 and standard stats as well as a variety of pokemon I felt worth noting. If you feel a pokemon who is not currently tiered should be make a post about what tier you feel that pokemon should be in and it will be discussed.


S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

S-Rank

• 
  Ferrothorn
• 
  Hippodown
• 
  Ninetales
• 
  Politoed
• 
  Tyranitar

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

A-Rank

• 
  Abomasnow
• 
  Alomomola
• 
  Amoonguss
• 
  Durant
• 
  Golurk
• 
  Gorebyss
• 
  Heatran
• 
  Jirachi
• 
  Jumpluff
• 
  Jynx
• 
  Landorus-T
• 
  Moltres
• 
  Rotom-Cut
• 
  Rotom-Wash
• 
  Sawsbuck
• 
  Seismitoad
• 
  Sigilyph
• 
  Skarmory
• 
  Stoutland
• 
  Swanna
• 
  Tangela
• 
  Tentacruel
• 
  Tornadus-I
• 
  Victreebel
• 
  Whiscash

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

B-Rank

• 
  Armaldo
• 
  Azelf
• 
  Basculin
• 
  Breloom
• 
  Celebi
• 
  Chansey
• 
  Clefable
• 
  Cobalion
• 
  Cresselia
• 
  Escavalier
• 
  Espeon
• 
  Feraligatr
• 
  Forretress
• 
  Froslass
• 
  Gothitelle
• 
  Gothorita
• 
  Galvantula
• 
  Gardevoir
• 
  Gyarados
• 
  Hitmonlee
• 
  Keldeo
• 
  Kyurem
• 
  Lanturn
• 
  Lapras
• 
  Latias
• 
  Mamoswine
• 
  Medicham
• 
  Misdreavus
• 
  Rotom-Frost
• 
  Raikou
• 
  Roserade
• 
  Sableye
• 
  Sawk
• 
  Scizor
• 
  Sharpedo
• 
  Shedninja
• 
  Slowking
• 
  Starmie
• 
  Steelix
• 
  Tangrowth
• 
  Terrakion
• 
  Throh
• 
  Thundurus-T
• 
  Uxie
• 
  Venomoth
• 
  Wobbuffet
• 
  Xatu
• 
  Zapdos

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.

C-Rank

• 
  Archeops
• 
  Aerodactyl
• 
  Alakazam
• 
  Altaria
• 
  Arcanine
• 
  Articuno
• 
  Blissey
• 
  Bronzong
• 
  Chandelure
• 
  Cincinno
• 
  Cradily
• 
  Crawdaunt
• 
  Crustle
• 
  Darmanitan
• 
  Dugtrio
• 
  Electrode
• 
  Exeggutor
• 
  Gallade
• 
  Gengar
• 
  Gliscor
• 
  Heracross
• 
  Kabutops
• 
  Kyurem-Black
• 
  Lilligant
• 
  Lucario
• 
  Ludicolo
• 
  Magneton
• 
  Mew
• 
  Mienshao
• 
  Miltank
• 
  Nidoking
• 
  Nidoqueen
• 
  Omastar
• 
  Parasect
• 
  Politwrath
• 
  Porygon2
• 
  Rhydon
• 
  Rhyperior
• 
  Sandslash
• 
  Sceptile
• 
  Shaymin
• 
  Victini
• 
  Weavile
• 
  Weezing

D Rank:Reserved for Pokemon who are simply not very effective in the current metagame.

D-Rank

• 
  Charizard
• 
  Dragonite
• 
  Electivire
• 
  Hitmontop
• 
  Infernape
• 
  Latios
• 
  Magnezone
• 
  Magmortar
• 
  Salamence
• 
  Toxicroak
• 
  Umbreon
• 
  Virizion

E-Rank: Reserved for pokemon who are absolutely abysmal in the Tier Shift metagame yet receive usage frequent enough to warrant mention. Pokemon in this rank have no use on any serious team.

E-Rank

• 
  Swampert

Approved by both Birkal and Articblast

 

[Magcargo]

Just a nitpick, but kadabra actually lacks focus blast, a crucial move that alakazam has access to, so it should be removed from the list.

 

[Tsumugi Kotokobuki]

Just a nitpick, but kadabra actually lacks focus blast, a crucial move that alakazam has access to, so it should be removed from the list.

Ah, didn't know that. Will do immediately.

 

[Mr Omgness]

Very nice starting list, you know the meta pretty good! My compliments for that.

Swanna A-Rank is giving it a bit too much credit tho I think. Sure the Rest + Hydration combo is great but it has 102 SpA which is good but not overwhelming and no boosting moves which means that a lot of special walls can stop it in it's tracks. On top of that it is very very weather-reliant with Hurricane & HydrationRest. Outside of Rain Swanna is pretty useless or atleast very shaky to use. For example a contender for the role it plays is Moltres who doesnt really care about weather as in Rain it can fire off powerful Hurricanes and in Sun it has Fire Blast + Solarbeam. Moltres' downfall is it's lackluster speed.

Swanna excels in some games because players dont really know that it's not a mon you should wall but succumbs to a lot of bulky offensive mons who can live a hit and KO it right back. Using your Ferrothorn to combat a Swanna for example will only result in losing your precious defensive mon to an overgrown duck, even if that takes multiple turns, in the end you'll lose. Swanna's defenses are subpar after all, bulky attackers deal with it. 102 SpA doesnt cut it in a lot of situations, even with LO. It can hope for a Confuse from Hurricane tho or rely on the help of entry hazards to net some KOs.

Also: Rotom-W is ranked pretty high while I havent played one at all! I played a lot of TS at the start of the ladder start and I did 40~ games last week and I dont think I ever came across a Rotom-W. And if I did it mustn't have done so well as I would remember if it did.

 

[Tsumugi Kotokobuki]

Very nice starting list, you know the meta pretty good! My compliments for that.

Swanna A-Rank is giving it a bit too much credit tho I think. Sure the Rest + Hydration combo is great but it has 102 SpA which is good but not overwhelming and no boosting moves which means that a lot of special walls can stop it in it's tracks. On top of that it is very very weather-reliant with Hurricane & HydrationRest. Outside of Rain Swanna is pretty useless or atleast very shaky to use. For example a contender for the role it plays is Moltres who doesnt really care about weather as in Rain it can fire off powerful Hurricanes and in Sun it has Fire Blast + Solarbeam. Moltres' downfall is it's lackluster speed.

Swanna excels in some games because players dont really know that it's not a mon you should wall but succumbs to a lot of bulky offensive mons who can live a hit and KO it right back. Using your Ferrothorn to combat a Swanna for example will only result in losing your precious defensive mon to an overgrown duck, even if that takes multiple turns, in the end you'll lose. Swanna's defenses are subpar after all, bulky attackers deal with it. 102 SpA doesnt cut it in a lot of situations, even with LO. It can hope for a Confuse from Hurricane tho or rely on the help of entry hazards to net some KOs.

Also: Rotom-W is ranked pretty high while I havent played one at all! I played a lot of TS at the start of the ladder start and I did 40~ games last week and I dont think I ever came across a Rotom-W. And if I did it mustn't have done so well as I would remember if it did.

Swanna has a lot going for it, and is in my personal opinion the single best Weather Abuser in the whole metagame. One key thing you missed is Swanna's 113 base speed. This puts Swanna above the large majorty of non-speed boosted pokemon. This high speed is further complimented by Swanna's unique typing that allows it to resist nearly all priority. Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, and Vacuum Wave are all resisted, and Ice Shard only hits for neutral damage. This means that your average priority user cannot OHKO Swanna, and will then die out to either Surf or Hurricane.

In regards to Special Walls, Swanna is in a unique position there too. Your average special wall that can tank two or more Hurricanes or Surfs also cannot threaten to 2HKO or OHKO Swanna. The only special walls that are ideal for walling Swanna are Rotom-Wash and Lanturn, both of who can live any attack Swanna tries and promptly OHKO with electric coverage. Because Volt Switch will usually OHKO Swanna these pokemon are in a unique position to pick up momentum even if Swanna switches out from them. Any other wall can't deal enough damage to get past Rest healing, and will eventually get confused haxed on a crucial turn where they needed to heal and die.

Furthermore, while Swanna does require rain to do much of anything while Moltres can function fine in sun, rain has a good match-up against both sand and sun inherently. This is the reason why Swanna really shines. One of the biggest advantages to using sand or sun is that they generally have better aggresive weather abusers. Sawsbuck, Victreebel, Tangela/Tangrowth, are all Sun sweepers, while Stoutland and Sandslash are the sand sweepers. This creates a unique balance between the weathers that Swanna manages to off set. While Swanna does fully require rain, rain is by far the easiest weather to provide.

In addition to that, Abomasnow, Ninetales, Hippodown, and Tyranitar really cannot come in and force Swanna out. Swanna's surf still hurts any of them massively, barring Abomasnow which is hurt by Hurricane. Against Abomasnow, Swanna just needs to hit the Hurricane to put an end to him. In sun, Swanna's surf hits neutrally off a base 102 Sp.Atk, and Swanna is faster and can get the 2HKO on defensive Ninetales. Hippodown and Tyranitar are both weak to the STAB Surf, and outsped, so again they risk taking large damage and being OHKOed or 2HKOed when switching into Swanna. This allows Swanna to put huge amounts of pressure on the weather starters, and often mandates a fodder mon to come in.

Swanna does have weaknesses, like any pokemon. Pokemon like Rotom-Wash and Lanturn massively threaten her. Any scarfer that outspeeds can threaten to end her day with the appropriate coverage move. And she does have an annoying stealth rock weakness. However, these three flaws are patched up by an insane amount of positive traits listed above, and the average rain team should have answers to any of them. Scarfers are also threatened by Swanna as they cannot directly switch in (barring scarf Rotom-Wash), and most instead fodder something out if they wish to come in on Swanna. Rotom-Wash and Lanturn must be patched up by the team, and are glaring weaknesses any rain team must be able to beat (hence why Seismitoad is ranked so highly), and the rocks weakness is off-set by great recovery and high speed and special attack.

Rotom-Wash functions like a more offensive Lanturn. Even after the tier shift bonuses Rotom has considerably higher defenses, speed, and special attack. While the defenses are off-set by bad HP while Lanturn has a fantastic base 135 HP the extra speed and special attack help immensely. Rotom-Wash will usually be used with a Scarf or Specs and trick which allow him to cripple common wall mons that would normally ruin him. He also gets access to Pain Split to have some level of recovery, and Will-O-Wisp for the burn if you wish to use a bulky set. Lanturn is more defensive in the long run, but hits less hard and has Heal Bell to support the team. Generally, the offensive Rotom-Wash is better suited for the meta game, but Lanturn is still a stellar pokemon onthe right team.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Yeah, the OP pretty much hits the nail on the head in terms of what I view as effective in this metagame.

 

[youngjake93]

I strongly feel that Whiscash is worthy of S tier or at least A tier. I have no idea why you have it in C. I've played tier shift A LOT since its introduction and have been up through the ladder quite a few times.
Whiscash is basically a mixture of BW1 Dragonite and Excadrill(who were S tier) on mega steroids. It can set up almost anything due to respectable bulk, typing and Hydration. But more importantly is that things such as Latios, that you would think it would have trouble with by resisting one STAB and being immune to the other, get completely decimated by +2 LO Waterfall in rain. Ferrothorn gets KOed by a boosted EQ as well. Whiscash is the type of pokemon that is a late-game sweeper, but is so good at sweeping that it can pull off a full team sweep setting up early-mid-game. It also is a good electric immunity that takes neutral hits very well and can recover from them if/when the rain is up early game.
Swanna's base 102 SAtt is like a joke compared to Whiscash.

Edit: Just went and found a quick example. Whiscash easily gets +2 and OHKOs Rotom-C who resists Waterfall and is immune to EQ.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/tiershift-38776037

The other suggestion is Kyurem-B to B tier or higher. The shift in viable mons has been very kind to Kyurem-B. Most steel and fighting types were already in the upper tiers, didn't receive boosts and are thus less popular options. His CB Outrage has no problems smashing gaping holes into teams early-mid game. It does get a little slowed down by the new extremely physically bulky regenerator mons, but it can fight past them. One thing I recommend is using Dragon Tail on the Choice Band option with hazard support to smack switch-ins early game to soften them up to be KOed by Outrage at the next opportunity.

 

[BlankZero]

Hitmontop for B Rank.

I'll do a better write up when I'm not on the road, but it's an excellent Rapid Spin user. Good bulk, Foresight, and resists Stealth Rock, which is really great for Sun Teams, which are a very dominating force in TS.

 

[Tsumugi Kotokobuki]

The problem that I have with Whiscash is that he requires extensive team support and time to set-up, which is not indicative of an A-Tier or S-Tier pokemon. Firstly, Whiscash can be forced out during the set-up by many faster pokemon that can threaten him with strong grass attacks such as Rotom-Cut, Ferrothorn, Jumpluff, Sceptile, Sawsbuck, Tangela and a few others. Furthermore, anything with Trick, Taunt, or Encore stops his set-up. These moves are very common on pokemon like Politoed, Rotom-Wash, Misdreavus, Jellicent, etc. that are all unthreatend by Whiscash until after he sets-up. Even after two Dragon Dances, Whishcash speed is only 150 base, allowing him to be forced out by any scarfer above 100 base speed with a move strong enough to punish him.

Whiscash is by no means bad, but he requires something to remove Scarfers, mons with strong grass attacks, and Trick, Taunt, and Encore mons before he starts to attempt his set-up, and that's my problem with him. If getting these pokemon out of the way isn't feasible Whishcash can start to bore a hole in your team and act as a worse Seismitoad. Whiscash gets the C-Rank because he has a niche as a Ground/Water late game sweeper who provides valuable Electric Immunities to standard rain, but also needs team support to actually sweep.

Kyurem-B has a lot to deal with and didn't gain any real new options to deal with it. New absurdly physically bulky regenerator mons exist, as you said, as well as a plethora of Steels in the upper tiers. While he is less threatened than before, all his old checks and counters exist as well as the new Durant, an extremely buffed Throh, and other such pokemon that either flat out wall him or threaten to outspeed and OHKO.

He still has a niche as a strong physical wall breaker, but he needs team support to remove pokemon that wall him out.

 

[youngjake93]

The problem that I have with Whiscash is that he requires extensive team support and time to set-up, which is not indicative of an A-Tier or S-Tier pokemon. Firstly, Whiscash can be forced out during the set-up by many faster pokemon that can threaten him with strong grass attacks such as Rotom-Cut, Ferrothorn, Jumpluff, Sceptile, Sawsbuck, Tangela and a few others. Furthermore, anything with Trick, Taunt, or Encore stops his set-up. These moves are very common on pokemon like Politoed, Rotom-Wash, Misdreavus, Jellicent, etc. that are all unthreatend by Whiscash until after he sets-up. Even after two Dragon Dances, Whishcash speed is only 150 base, allowing him to be forced out by any scarfer above 100 base speed with a move strong enough to punish him.

Whiscash is by no means bad, but he requires something to remove Scarfers, mons with strong grass attacks, and Trick, Taunt, and Encore mons before he starts to attempt his set-up, and that's my problem with him. If getting these pokemon out of the way isn't feasible Whishcash can start to bore a hole in your team and act as a worse Seismitoad. Whiscash gets the C-Rank because he has a niche as a Ground/Water late game sweeper who provides valuable Electric Immunities to standard rain, but also needs team support to actually sweep.

Kyurem-B has a lot to deal with and didn't gain any real new options to deal with it. New absurdly physically bulky regenerator mons exist, as you said, as well as a plethora of Steels in the upper tiers. While he is less threatened than before, all his old checks and counters exist as well as the new Durant, an extremely buffed Throh, and other such pokemon that either flat out wall him or threaten to outspeed and OHKO.

He still has a niche as a strong physical wall breaker, but he needs team support to remove pokemon that wall him out.

Whiscash is bulky enough to survive an attack from a speedy scarfer easily unless they are carrying the extremely rare HP grass. More often than not, they don't hit too hard due to not having LO and give Whiscash a chance to use Rest after they miss the KO. Also, taunt/encore don't really bother Whiscash since it just uses DD when there isn't a taunter out. Grass types have to come in very often against Rain teams so they are worn down very naturally where Whiscash can sweep through them without worry. Finally, grass resists, 4x grass resists and even immunities are all over tier shift. Whiscash is not askin for much, often a team will have multiple grass resists without planning it.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I do think that Whiscash is B-worthy, but moving it all the way up to A or S is extreme. It's destroyed by pretty much every Grass-Type out there (Tangela says hi), and it has middling speed for a Dragon Dancer. It certainly gives Gyarados competition for the DD role, but it's by no means better by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[levenl00s]

Finally a decent Tier Shit Viability Ranking thread, thanks for creating! I see a pretty decent initial list, with maybe too much stuff in A-rank, but those are minor things that can come later.

First of all, Stoutland is beyond any doubt S-rank. It is one of the strongest reasons sand is even viable. In sand, it is a strong revenge killer and sweeper. Because of him a normal resist is essential. It is very comparable to Excadrill when it was OU. Granted, it lacks swords dance, has worse typing and has a bit lower attack, but it has better bulk and better coverage and a very high damage output with a choice band. I would call him the best weather abuser (Swanna is second)

Then, all the weather starters are up in S-rank. This is more a matter of policy than anything else. Since Tier Shift is very OU-like, I'd say keep the weather starters like they are there, with Politoed up in S and Ninetales, Hippo and Tar in A. Abomasnow has no real claim on A-rank.

I have used Ferrothorn extensively and while it is still very nice for stall and balanced alike and it may have received a slight buff from OU, I don't really see how it is S-rank. A-rank would fit.

When I have more time I'll address stuff like Shedinja (A imo) and Seismitoad (B at best).

 

[BlankZero]

Stoutland needs sand, so it's A Rank. TTar and Tales make huge buffs for their newly buffed weather partners, which earns them S rank, as Sun and Sand are much better in TS than in OU.

And if you call them best weather abusers, you've never used Jumpluff to sweep entire teams in or out of Sunlight :p

The fact is that TS is quite different from OU. A lot more mons are viable, making the threat list much more in depth. It's much faster, as now a lot more mons are in the 110 speed bracket, making a lot of OU threats outclassed entirely. Just look at Latios, Salamence (think it should be higher personally), and even Magnezone, former OU ranked and now down in D.

 

[BlankZero]

Anyhow, I'd like to nominate putting Salamence up to C rank.

While it may have lost its awesome MoxieScarf set due to being outsped by a ton of things now, I think it's Bulky Special Intimidate set is a really good thing it can abuse in this Metagame, bringing a good solid SpAtk score and Draco Meteor to the table, it can force switches, while nuking the switch-in with great coverage in DM/Fire Blast/EQ and can go mixed even to guarantee more KOs.

 

[levenl00s]

Well, to be honest, I have used Jumpluff and I was not really impressed, still needs setup to hit reasonably hard. And on the ladder as of late I have not seen it, while Stoutland is really common, because it's super strong and easy to abuse.

Following your argument, Swanna then should be A, because outside of rain it is not too great, between its Stealth Rock weakness and tendency to die to Life Orb recoil and any strong attack. Stoutland outside of sand is still not worthless, it outspeeds and threatens all weather setters save Hippowdon. You can still send him out into anything slower (which is a whole lot less now but well).

Then, I'd say TS is still very much like OU. In fact, the teams that are at the top of the ladder mostly use OU pokemon. The reason they are maybe viewed as less viable, is because everyone wants to try out their favorite NU pokes. I have used stuff like Keldeo, Latias and Landorus-I and I'd say they are still up there in A (Latias definitely), but no one knows, because no one uses them. Honestly OU mons are underrated. I have no idea what Latios, Salamence and Dragonite are doing in D, someone mind explaining? They have not lost much of their OU status, with (Specs/LO) Latios and (Band) Dragonite at least deserving B-tier and as for Salamence, haven't tested him, but also seems like a B to me. D-rank mons are supposed to be the REALLY shitty ones.

Btw, it's Virizion not Virizon in OP

 

[BlankZero]

I've seen Stoutland used more as a check to Sand than anything else outside if straight up abusing it. It is very powerful, but then again, even Charizard is powerful, coming up from NU. That's what gives Pluff it's edge too. That and it's ungodly 125 base speed outside of sun and its reasonable bulk.

I think more testing should be done though, especially on these D rank mons.

 

[Morbidius]

Swanna is A rank, powerful sweeper but certainly not as game-changing as the other threats.

 

[Snaquaza]

I was looking through the viability rankings and I do not see Throh there at all (I may have missed it though)
I won't say it is S or A rank, but in the time I played Tier Shift, it was pretty impressive
I won't nominate it for a rank as I don't play Tier Shift enough, although I would like your opinions

With the +15 in all its stats, it gets amazing 135/100/100 mixed bulk, together with 115 Attack
This makes a bulky attacker or shuffler set very viable
It can abuse sleep (I think) with Guts
It has decent coverage in the Elemental Punches and Earthquake
It can shuffle with Circle Throw
It can Bulk Up reliably

It has problem with Ghost Types
It has no really good STAB move (I think)
It is slow
It is weak to Swanna's Hurricane (Although I don't know if it is an OHKO)
It needs Hazard support if you use it as a Shuffler

I hope I gave a few good points, but I'd like to hear what you think of it

 

[Qwilphish]

I don't understand how Charizard is in D-Rank. Under Sun, it becomes one of the hardest hitting 'mons in the game with its CS Solar Power Fire Blasts. Unlike others who can hit this hard, it isnt even slow. 115 Speed is nothing to scoff at and outspeeds many importent things. There is almost nothing that will want to take that hit. The fact that it can do this without the use of set-up turns is reason enough for it to be above "not effective"

It does have that 4x weakness to SR and suffers from the same problems as Zangoose, it can't switch in and it simply does to fast. But, when it does get in, it is almost guaranteed to get at least one kill

Move Charizard to C-Rank or higher

 

[Mr Omgness]

Swanna
I still think it's A Rank material because take a look at this:
S Rank: : Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.


I do agree with 90% of your post Tsumugi but I think we both agree that Swanna needs rain to function good? Then we can also say that it being S Rank is contradictory. It might be true that Rain is the easiest weather to prevail in TS, but that doesnt change the fact that Swanna needs quite some team support to function well. Making sure rain prevails vs some teams uses 2-3 key pokes and not only Politoed. On top of that Swanna only has one role: LO Offensive set with Hurricane/Rest/Hydro Pump or Surf/HP Grass or Electric. A mon that is only good in a certain weather cannot be justified to be S Rank imo, the only exception being Weather Starters themselves for obvious reasons.


Ferrothorn
S-Rank is justified. It can wall a lot of this meta and can be put on ANY team. It doesnt need a specific other mon to function well and doesnt need a specific weather either, it therefore qualifies as an S Rank mon.

Also Whiscash for S Rank? Can we atleast keep the posts somewhat credible?

 

[Mr Omgness]

The problem that I have with Whiscash is that he requires extensive team support and time to set-up, which is not indicative of an A-Tier or S-Tier pokemon. Firstly, Whiscash can be forced out during the set-up by many faster pokemon that can threaten him with strong grass attacks such as Rotom-Cut, Ferrothorn, Jumpluff, Sceptile, Sawsbuck, Tangela and a few others. Furthermore, anything with Trick, Taunt, or Encore stops his set-up. These moves are very common on pokemon like Politoed, Rotom-Wash, Misdreavus, Jellicent, etc. that are all unthreatend by Whiscash until after he sets-up. Even after two Dragon Dances, Whishcash speed is only 150 base, allowing him to be forced out by any scarfer above 100 base speed with a move strong enough to punish him.

This is wrong btw, after two Dragon Dances Whiscash speed is 546 (running max Speed), while base 150 Speed mons only reach 438 Speed (max speed).

75 Base Speed doesnt mean 150 Base Speed after 2 Dragon Dances, you have to look at the actual stat when calculating boosts.

A 100 Base Speed mon hits 492 Speed max when wearing a scarf, so it does not outspeed Whiscash.

+2 Max Speed Whiscash actually outspeeds 115 Base Speed Scarfers. +2 Max Speed Whiscash speed ties with 116Base Speed Scarfer running max Speed. So you need an 117 Scarfer to safely outspeed +2 Whiscash.

 

[youngjake93]

Swanna
I still think it's A Rank material because take a look at this:
S Rank: : Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.


I do agree with 90% of your post Tsumugi but I think we both agree that Swanna needs rain to function good? Then we can also say that it being S Rank is contradictory. It might be true that Rain is the easiest weather to prevail in TS, but that doesnt change the fact that Swanna needs quite some team support to function well. Making sure rain prevails vs some teams uses 2-3 key pokes and not only Politoed. On top of that Swanna only has one role: LO Offensive set with Hurricane/Rest/Hydro Pump or Surf/HP Grass or Electric. A mon that is only good in a certain weather cannot be justified to be S Rank imo, the only exception being Weather Starters themselves for obvious reasons.


Ferrothorn
S-Rank is justified. It can wall a lot of this meta and can be put on ANY team. It doesnt need a specific other mon to function well and doesnt need a specific weather either, it therefore qualifies as an S Rank mon.

Also Whiscash for S Rank? Can we atleast keep the posts somewhat credible?

It is mainly going off the fact that Swanna is in S rank which has really disappointed me in terms of power. I use specs moltres hurricane which actually does serious damage. Plus 4x electric weakness is WAY WAY WAY more cripplig than 4x grass weakness. Also that Swanna is kind of a joke outside of rain, but Whiscash sweeps sand teams ridiculously reliably even in sand if you play around Stoutland(if they run it, they would still hae to give you at least 1 KO to get it in safely) due to its rock resist and generally being able to switch into Tyranitar for a free DD. It also has a good matchup against sun with both of its STABs hitting fire types hard and bringing the momentum your way when they HAVE to switch into a grass type so you can double switch into your resist(preferably a fire type to abuse the sun and type match up) at no risk.
I'm not saying that Whiscash HAS to be in S Rank, but it vastly outperforms Swanna in my experience and it uses Tyranitar and Ninetales as set-up fodder plus it can set up on Politoed or Ferrothorn with Gyro Ball, but not Power Whip. And it puts Hippowdon in a horrible position of staying in to whirlwind after taking a waterfall just in case DD is used which could lose the weather war, or it also just gives a free attack/DD up. All of those made S Rank. So having Whiscash in C Rank makes no sense to me.

Edit: Yes Whiscash's stats put me off at first as well until I gave it a try. It's typing/STABs are really what do the trick. Grass weakness is actually a good thing because usually only grass types carry it except the occasional Giga Drain user that you can learn to deal with(Galvantula mainly). This allows you to switch into a dragon or fire type because you KNOW they will switch in that grass type if they brought one and don't want Whiscash sweeping. It really help momentum early game as opposed to being weak to something common such as Electric or Fighting. Plus the Stealth Rock resist and hydration rest allow you to make these early-game plays with Whiscash.
The other thing is that Whiscash can normally get +2 or better if you wait until late-game for the right opportunity(setting up on something weak, then DDing again taking 1 hit from the switch in if you outspeed everything at +2). +2 Life Orb STAB Waterfall in Rain with double speed kills everything. The very few OHKOs you miss can usually be grabbed with SR on the field or the slightest of prior damage early-game. You can't be slowed down with paralysis, toxic, sleep, freeze or burn and there will be plenty of opportunities to safely rest to full health from 10% due to your +2 speed. So Life Orb recoil isn't really a hindrance.
I'll admit it that isn't as simple to use as Swanna, but played correctly it really outperforms most of the metagame. I'd say Stoutland could be more potent of a sweeper, but once you know how to deal with Stoutland you don't really get swept by it anymore.

 

[Mr Omgness]

I see your point, but as I've said above I dont think Swanna should be S Rank either. I do not agree about Whiscash being as good as Swanna tho, but I have not used it yet so I might try it out sooner or later and see how it does. It's stats are letting me down a bit tho, even after the +15 boosts.

 

[Tsumugi Kotokobuki]

Various changes have been made in the OP.

Virizon has been changed to the correct spelling Virizion
Swanna has been moved down from A rank to S rank
Whiscash has been moved up from C Rank to A Rank
Hitmontop has been added to D Rank

Also, Throh is B Rank, he has always been.

 

[Snaquaza]

oh sorry, didn't see it :/