Suspect Discussion: "Hail"

[Molk]

Hey everyone, so if you didn't already hear, Oglemi recently decided to step down from RU tier leader and decided to give the position to me for the remainder of BW2 RU, so i'm the one who's going to be deciding suspect testing and some other things until at least the start of X/Y.
Anyways, after listening to some concerns on irc, reading the hail discussion thread, and giving various hail teams a try for myself to see just how powerful they were over the past two weeks or so, i decided that a hail suspect test couldn't hurt, so i decided to make this an official suspect test as my first act as RU tier leader.

I decided against making a new np thread simply because i really liked all the discussion that came out of of this one and i don't want it to kinda die down if we start fresh after this test, so for now i'm going to just hold the suspect discussion in the current NP thread :).

Like UU, RU's not going to be doing a rotating council this time around, instead going for suspect reqs for this test. However, unlike OU and UU, i'm going to have all suspect testing and reqs take place on one ladder instead of making you guys have to get the reqs twice on two different ones. The requirements for voting this round will be 2000 Glicko2 on the RU ladder with a deviation of 65 or below. Also, if your account glitches/deviation won't go down for some reason, i'll accept special applications at the end of the suspect round.

I'd prefer if all voters posted here and joined in on the hail discussion too and gave their opinion on the power of the playstyle (or parts of it) in the current metagame as well.
For now i'm probably going to just suspect hail/snover as a whole, although there are some alternatives that have been brought up such as simply suspecting walrein, a 3 ballot vote, or suspecting the combination of hail+ice body. I'm not totally closed minded about these proposals, although you'll have to convince me that they're better than voting on hail as a whole by the end of the round (especially if its a complex ban, i kinda hate those :s).

This suspect round will end on August 9th at 11:59 PM EST
Anyways, Good luck! and remember to stay civil during the debates =).

 

[ss234]

K I posted my thoughts in the hail thread but my thoughts have changed so yeah imma post here too :]

I think the best thing to do would be to just ban ice body. Rotom-f, snover and jynx etc. aren't really broken on their own, so banning hail entirely would not be a good idea considering most of hail is not broken. However, ice body abusers such as walrein, glaceon and lol dewgong imo are. Everyone knows about rein, and how it can set-up subs on pokes such as sceptile and moltres and then stall entire teams out with sub + protect. The list of pokes that can beat rein once it gets a sub up is incredibly small-off the top of my head, I can only think of cinncino, klinklang and clefable, which is a rather small number. Dewgong is not much better-although it is far less bulky on the physical side, it still has very high special bulk when fully invested, so much so that it still sets up a sub on pokes like specs moltres and sceptile as well as many other mons. Glaceon is easier to deal with imo, due to the fire weakness. However, glaceon is still very bulky and can dish out a lot of damage with blizzard off of 130 spa.

Just my two cents.

 

[-Tsunami-]

My only issue with banning Ice Body instead of Ice Body + hail is that doing the former completely bans Glaceon from being used, as Snow Cloak is already illegal. I've already shared my thoughts on why I believe banning Ice Body + hail is the best option, so just posting to clarify.

 

[Explorer]

See, Glaceon is not broken, just very powerful. However, Ice Body and SubStalling allows Walrein to be broken very quickly with Snover's assistance.

What I'd like to ask is if anybody thinks there are any elements of hail that are broken BESIDES Walrein. If not, maybe we should just suspect Walrein to be moved to BL2.

 

[PTJon7]

I agree with Explorer, Walrein the only thing I would call "broken" in hail teams.

 

[EonX]

Already posted in the Hail discussion thread, but just to clarify my thoughts on this as a whole with a bit more in-depth stuff:

Walrein: Everyone points to Walrein as the biggest problem with Hail. The walrus has insane bulk on both ends while having very beefy subs to break thanks to that high HP stat. While many people run Blizzard as its attacking move, it does have Super Fang and Surf available to it. If you can hit everything with a status condition (burn, poison, toxic poison) then Super Fang Walrein becomes incredibly difficult to stop (as if it wasn't hard enough) If stuff such as Cryogonal and Uxie get hit with Toxic, then they have no hope of holding off a Walrein with Super Fang (unless Uxie has Thunderbolt, but even then, there's SubProtect) This also lets Walrein cut into Steel-types though it does leave the walrus powerless against Ghost-types. Surf may not be all that strong thanks to Walrein's uninvested Special Attack, but it's still an option for those who want a STAB move with good PP. Usually though, you should use Super Fang if you don't need/want Blizzard as it hastens the stalling process to conserve SubProtect PP if Walrein starts stalling early in the match.

Glaceon: Glaceon is another big one, but for different reasons than Walrein. While Walrein is pretty much a "here's my set; try and stop me" kind of Pokemon, Glaceon is possibly the most versatile Hail abuser. Now, a lot of you are probably looking at me like I'm some kind of crazy lunatic, but bear with me for a minute. Glaceon can light up pretty much every non-bulky Ice resist with a Choice Specs set. While it isn't easy to switch in, once it does get in the battle, Choice Specs Glaceon will likely take down a Pokemon if you lack a bulky Steel- or Water-type such as Slowking or Escavalier. Glaceon can also revenge kill the vast majority of the unboosted metagame thanks to its raw power. Base 65 Speed may not look too sporty for a Choice Scarf user, but one needs to remember that this is the same base Speed Emboar has and the last time I checked, Emboar is a pretty effective Choice Scarf user. While Choice Scarf may be Glaceon's least effective set due to direct competition with Rotom-F, one shouldn't just dismiss it either as it is capable of being quite effective. Glaceon's last set puts a whole new spin on the SubProtect strategy. While most users of this strategy are either really bulky (Walrein and Dewgong) or just not very common (Vanilluxe) Glaceon breaks the mold as a SubProtect user that is still very capable of sticking to the traditional stall principles of such a set, but also being able to go on the offensive if there's just no other way to get around something. Glaceon has enough bulk to use most Pokemon that lack a super effective move as setup bait for the first Sub. Even if it can't get that first Sub, don't be shocked if it lives a super effective coverage move. Life Orb Sigilyph, Choice Scarf Manectric, and unboosted Lilligant (make sure Sleep Clause is active!) are all incapable of OHKOing Glaceon with their super effective coverage moves and will go down to Blizzard instantly while Glaceon can recover at least 24% of its lost health from the move before switching out. I wholeheartedly believe that SubProtect is Glaceon's most effective set right now since Glaceon rarely ever finds itself using offensive moves not named Blizzard or Hidden Power to begin with and SubProtect gives Glaceon the ability to scout switch-ins so it can use the correct move.

Rotom-F: While Walrein is almost always on Hail Stall teams, Rotom-F finds itself as a staple on Hail Offense teams thanks to its access to STAB Thunderbolt, good Special Attack, and a solid Speed stat that lets it threaten offensive teams much better than Glaceon can. Rotom-F can do what very few other common Hail abusers can do; get past Slowking and Escavalier without a hitch. While Glaceon's sheer power is hard to deal with at times, the same can be said of Rotom-F's coverage. With a STAB Thunderbolt to light up Slowking and a Hidden Power Fire that destroys Escavalier, Rotom-F is a very tactical wallbreaker for Hail teams that can also go on to sweep opposing teams with ease. Its Subsplit set is very painful (pun somewhat intended) for stall teams to deal with due to the fact Rotom-F is immune to Toxic Spikes and has a STAB combination that is very difficult to wall. Rotom-F's Expert Belt set is a perfect way to lure in Slowking or Escavalier and proceed to demolish them with the appropriate move. If it's a revenge killer that your Hail team needs, then look no further than Choice Scarf Rotom-F. It has the same stat spread as Rotom-C, but in Hail, it has a much better STAB move to abuse in Blizzard; a 120 BP move with no drawbacks and more than enough power to clean out teams without a healthy Ice resist. It may be the easiest of the "big 3" Hail abusers to wear down, but it is no easy task to deal with thanks to its offensive presence and its Electric STAB that catches common Hail checks such as Slowking and Poliwrath for super effective damage.

There are many other Pokemon that can abuse Hail as well. Jynx and Dewgong are the main ones I didn't go over, but both are perfectly usable on Hail Offense and Hail Stall respectively should you require their unique niches compared to the "big 3". Other Pokemon such as Mesprit, Omastar, and Samurott can all use Hail to replace Ice Beam with Blizzard on their respective attacking sets. As a whole, I do see Ice Body as the bigger issue with Hail. To all of those saying that Walrein is the only thing wrong with Hail, I urge you to try out Glaceon (with SubProtect) and even Dewgong. You may be surprised with what you find.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

My thoughts on Hail are pretty much that Walrein is broken.

In short, Walrein has the bulk and typing to not just get completely steamrolled by Fighting and Fire-types, other than Glaceon, Rotom-F, or whatever other hail abuser you like to use. It also pretty much cannot be prepared for... the aforementioned issues, along with the fact you literally cannot wear it down, creates far to easy of a "win" situation. It almost makes running offense a liability when put up against a smart player.

Glaceon, on the other hand, as I said on the viability ranks, has a barren movepool and a not as great defensive typing. With only an Ice resistance, Glaceon's SubProtect set is a lot harder to pull off because everything will break its sub. Its. Strong but its not any stronger than Escavalier, Magmortar, or other of RU's hard hitters. Ice isn't very hard to pack a resistance for either, and while Ice Body makes it more resilient, a Pokemon that walls it walls it, and especially when Slowking is around for that (while being the most common Pokemon in the tier), stuff like Cinccino (who can beat Glaceon but not Walrein due to bulk) Emboar, or Entei can provide valuable offensive pressure, and others such as Lanturn can take hits. Really, Glaceon isn't really broken, its just a hard hitter with a bit more durability.

Rotom-F isn't as strong but it does get that great coverage. However, nothing it can do can really stop it from the same things that beat Glaceon (though the extra speed helps). Also, aside from Blizzard and the residual damage, it doesn't really benefit from Hail all that much. It can be rather annoying with its additional coverage and such, but honestly, I don't feel like removing Hail would make it that much worse if you could bear missing with Blizzard. All in all though, preparing for Rotom-F is possible as long as you give it the offensive pressure that already can smash through Ice types.

tl;dr I think Walrein is the only hail abuser that you need to go out of your way to prepare for when regarding Hail, and I really feel like it is the thing that is pushing hail over the edge. The Pokemon that can deal with a non-Walrein Hail team is a decent size of good Pokemon, but when you add Walrein to the mix, you may just end up losing right there due to its bulk, typing, and stalling prowess that is just insane

 

[ss234]

You guys seem to be forgetting about dewgong which can take p much every special attack that rein can and still stall out teams with ease, so just banning walrein on its own won't rlly have much of an effect(i.e. there will still be a very specially bulky pokemon with water / ice typing that can stall out teams ez).

 

[dcae]

From my personal experience, the toughest mon to face on a Hail team is Walrein (obviously). Hail stall is incredibly dangerous etc, and reason have been analyzed previously. However, we take into account Dewgong. Dewgong has less bulk on both sides than Walrein, as well as being weaker. Tbh im going to have to say despite these issues, Dewgong runs the same issues as Walrein in the fact that it is able to Sub Protect stall out teams like its predecessor did, albeit slightly less effective. Taking this into account, the root problem could be Ice Body, but then banning that causes problems in the fact that Glaceon would essentially be banned as well, making that a very subpar course of action. Only two options are essentially left: complex banning Ice Body under Hail, or banning Hail. If we consider banning Ice Body + Hail a la Aldaron Proposal style, Glaceon is still unable to be used under Hail, rendering it much less useful than previous times, but we can keep Hail and the other mons in the RU tier. Banning Hail outright could be considered the better option as it follows Smogon tradition of avoiding complex bans, and it hits a few birds with one stone.

My opinion on this matter is that to deal with this problem, the best action is to outright ban Hail to solve all the problems, as well as avoiding a complex ban situation. Walrein is the broken one, we all know, but is it worth going down the Ice Body + Hail ban route or is it more preferable to just kill Hail. My thought is to just ban Hail.

 

[mkizzy]

I agree with the Ice Body thing being the problem, rather than just Walrein. Although it started as a joke, Dewgong can actually pretty much emulate exactly what Walrein does (albeit with lower stats). This leaves me leaning towards an outright Hail ban or a complex ban, but whether or not that will be available is up to Molk and the other 'higher-up' RU goons.

p.s: Has anyone used Jynx with Hail? The ability to Sleep potential blizzspam checks seems really nice =o

 

[Pocket]

I'd rather err on the side of caution and suspect Walrein for now - Hail wasn't even considered as suspect until august emphasized the effectiveness of Walrein as a stall machine. Hail isn't exactly running over the metagame atm, so I'd rather give it a few more chances for us to explore this playstyle before removing it entirely. It's not like RU has a queue of suspect tests to run anyways. It's highly probable that banning Walrein would be sufficient to make Hail tolerable (hell, Walrein's broken status is still suspect). No need to remove the entire organ when you can just take out the tumor, which can very well be benign anyways. We can always suspect Hail afterwards if it's still an issue. Grand Slam being near should NOT be an excuse for hasty tiering decisions, especially not something as elective as the removal of Hail (it's not the end of the world if the weather sans(?) Walrein sticks around for awhile).

I haven't started playing with Dewgong yet, but reading other people's experiences makes me lean towards not-at-all broken. For one, it can't run a physically defensive variant (my Walrein is actually physically defensive); so fast physical attackers can finish it off, and slow physical mons wont let Dewgong put a sub up. This means it has less opportunities to stall and more opportunities to die. Couple that with the lack of Roar, and the efficacy of this strategy is reduced further. Dewgong is a shitty Walrein, which to me amounts to not broken.

 

[Explorer]

Dewgong is basically an inferior Walrein under Hail; both have the same typing and Hail stall, but Walrein has better defenses and access to Super Fang. I think offensive hail is bearable, especially with Slowking and Kabutops running rampant. Let's consider moving Walrein to BL2 and then evaluating other potentially broken threats thereafter.

 

[Oglemi]

OK so I've been playing a ton the past couple days... I just played over 80 games today alone, all exclusively using a hail team of some kind.

Molk asked me to post about what I used today, so I'm going to treat this as a kind of mini-RMT and move into some larger discussion.

I'll start off by saying: hail is good. Like, really really good. Hail offense, hail balance, and hail stall are all equally viable and each has their own perks.

Hail offense is a lot of fun, the only downside is that it'll lose to hail stall nearly every time. It simply doesn't have the muscle to get past hail stall aside from Rotom-F, who is easy to take out with priority and/or easy to SubProtect against if you hit it with Toxic.

I played over 60 games today with hail stall, specifically a SubProtect team, and it's really kind of ridiculous, I'm not sure on broken because there's a few things that can beat it every time which I'll get to in a moment.

My current hail team is the following, feel free to try it out to see what you think for yourself:

Snover @ Focus Sash
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Spd / 252 SAtk / 252 Atk
Mild Nature
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Ice Shard
 
Glalie @ Leftovers
Trait: Ice Body
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Substitute
- Protect
- Toxic
 
Druddigon @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 216 HP / 20 Spd / 20 SAtk / 252 Atk
Lonely Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Outrage
- Flamethrower
- Sucker Punch
 
Walrein @ Leftovers
Trait: Ice Body
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef / 20 Spd
Calm Nature
- Blizzard
- Substitute
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Surf
- Protect
 
Qwilfish @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Impish Nature
- Waterfall
- Thunder Wave
- Toxic Spikes
- Taunt
 
Spiritomb @ Choice Band
Trait: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Shadow Sneak
- Sucker Punch
- Trick

This Snover set is my favorite and actually packs a punch.

Qwilfish serves only 2 roles: Set up Tspikes and absorb enemy Tspikes

Druddigon sets up SR when possible and is otherwise used as extra muscle, secondary priority, a Steel-type blaster with Flamethrower, and my Rotom-C switch in.

CB Tomb fills the role of Slowking killer, Gallade switch in, and spinblocker.

SubProtect is amazing. I have two on this team and I could probably replace Druddigon for a third (either Vanilluxe, Glaceon, or Dewgong) (I've also debated replacing him with Rotom-C for stuff like Poliwrath). Currently, Glalie and Walrein serve different roles. Glalie is fast, like faster than what most people expect, letting it start SubProtecting against stuff like Absol, Adamant Kabutops, and other things hanging around the base 80 benchmark without even needing to have Toxic Spikes set up or having to hit them with Toxic, assuming they don't have Leftovers. Walrein comes in last usually and is almost guaranteed to start the stalling cycle if it gets a Sub up (which with its bulk isn't hard).

This team will win against any standard RU team from a couple weeks ago easy, and almost any hail offense, nearly guaranteed.

Here's the catch about SubProtect though: it doesn't work if I can't poison the opponent. If they have more than 2 defensive Pokemon (that resist Ice) with Leftovers, 2 or more Steel-types not named Steelix, and/or a RestTalk user, this team will have a very hard time winning and will actually probably lose. The reason being SubProtect has to use PP every turn, RestTalk users do not. This makes it extremely easy for someone to keep Munchlax / Poliwrath / Clefable / Escavalier / whatever hidden until the hail mons come out, and just sit there and win.

Walrein also suffers from massive 4mss. I'm currently running HP Fire for Escavalier and Durant; however, this leaves me exposed to stuff like Cryogonal that can't otherwise be poisoned. Same goes for Glalie, which is why I'm currently running the both of them.

My opinion on the suspects is this: it's not Ice Body that's broken, it's not Walrein alone that's broken, it's the team strategy of SubProtecting that might be broken. I do not want to see a combo ban, I do not want to see just Walrein ban, and I don't want to see an ability ban. It's not just Walrein that can use the SubProtect strategy well; if I replaced him with Glaceon, Dewgong, or Vanilluxe it'd probably do just as well.

The solution for removing SubProtect from the metagame would be to ban hail (Snover) itself since it can't work without the recovery and Blizzard accuracy.

However, for those that are calling for a hail ban I want you to make a more defensive team with a RestTalk user or a phazer before making your decision. I want to see some more innovation.

This is kinda scatterbrained cuz I'm in a hurry, but I really don't think there's any one part of hail that's broken, it's the thing as a whole that makes stuff like SubProtect really really good.

 

[Pocket]

Oglemi I don't see how your experience with this team brings you to the conclusion that the Hail is broken in its entirety. Your team primarily abused the ability Snow Body - the Sub + Protect combo is secondary. It's because of Snow Body's recovery that it can self sustain Sub + Protect stall cycle; try using Sub + Protect on Rotom-F or Cryogonal @ Lefties, and you'll realize how quickly this strategy crumbles without Ice Body. It's pretty darn apparent to anyone that the problem you portrayed lies in Ice Body + Hail, not Sub + Protect.

Stating that Hail as a whole is broken implies that not only Hail stall, but Hail Offense is just as overpowered. If you really want a compelling case of how Hail is too good for RU, please show us evidence where blizzspam teams are too much for the metagame, not merely "really good."

 

[Oglemi]

It isn't just Sub + Protect or Ice Body + hail, it's the strategy combined with poison (TSpikes) that I think is what makes it amazing. You can argue that it works just as fine if you don't have TSpikes and give your mons Toxic, but that one turn needed to use Toxic creates an opening for the opponent to break the cycle (on at least one of them). If for instance I have Glalie in with a Sub up and Moltres (with Leftovers or Roost which stuff like this should be being used if you don't want to get stomped by these hail stall teams) comes in after a kill, after I use Protect I have to use Toxic the next turn. This lets it break my Sub with Fire Blast, it takes hail + poison damage, I use Protect and it takes hail and poison damage again, but then I now have a dead Glalie. (Or even better if it has Sub this isn't even a problem cuz then I have to use Blizzard as it breaks Glalie's Sub). Stallrein can come in and win afterwards though but the point is Glalie is out, if they have another mon that requires me to break the Sub+Protect cycle by having to use Toxic/Blizzard/whatever like Leftovers Aggron (which again stuff like this should be being used to counter this strategy) or something like Clefable I'll lose.

Notice though I never said I thought it was broken, I said if anything is broken it isn't just any one part of hail, and with a combo ban of Ice Body + hail you might as well ban hail altogether because then there's no reason to use Walrein (Scarf Rein is cool though I guess yet) and you can't use Glaceon, leaving hail essentially with Rotom-F and Jynx (yes I know there's still Glalie/Vanilluxe/Articuno/Regice w/e). Removing the simplest part, Snover, solves the problem in its entirety. It removes hail offense but "oh well" the Ice Body + hail ban essentially does too.

 

[Molk]

Hmmmmm to be honest i'm not totally convinced that banning the combination of Snow Warning+Ice Body would be enough to make hail totally manageable. I mean of course Ice Body is a good ability and its the reason hail stall is as powerful as it is, but hail offense still has some powerful tools to utilize that don't rely on Ice Body that might ensure that hail is still really tough to handle. Hail offense still has Rotom-F to utilize: one of the single most threatening hail abusers in the entire tier because of its STAB boltbeam, access to Volt Switch, and Speed with a Choice Scarf, as well as Jynx, who's the second most powerful blizzspammer after glaceon, by far the fastest with only the aformentioned Rotom-F coming close, poses an immediate threat to Cryogonal with STAB Psyshock, and even has a decently accurate Sleep Move to put hail checks and counters out of comission in lovely kiss, so if the opponent relies on Slowking to check Blizzspammers and Jynx hits it with a Lovely Kiss on the switch, the game could be over right there :/. You still have Cryogonal too, who admittedly only really gets buffed with a stronger Ice STAB but can still pose a threat on hail while spinning for its teammates. You even still have stuff like Regice (I know this gets ice body but its unreleased): who could pose a big threat with its massive special bulk and boltbeam coverage when it gets the chance. I actually used a hail team just before the suspect test that didn't use any Pokemon with Ice Body at all (i used Rotom-F and Jynx). The team was incredibly solid and could handle most of the threats in the tier, and even without ice body repeated blizzards/tbolts/volt switches/psyshocks/lovely kiss etc was still quite overwhelming for the opponent to deal with: even with common hail checks. If you're not really sure whether hail as a whole or just Ice Body should be banned, i'd advise to try out a hail offense/hail balance that doesn't utilize an Ice Body user so you can gauge for yourself just how powerful you think hail is without utilizing the ability.

 

[atomicllamas]

Okay, now that I have made reqs I will give my thoughts on Hail in the current meta.

Walrein is broken. I don't think I need to say anymore, but here goes: Walrein makes using probably about 75% of RU pokemon an automatic loss to hail stall unless you have SpDef rest talk Magneton (or some other shitty rest talker, but they better resist ice) which literally does nothing for your team except poop on hail stall. The fact that specially defensive rest talk Magneton is even a thing should indicate that there is something wrong with hail stall in the current meta. This is the reason a mon should be banned, since it makes using too many mons dead weight (and by dead weight, I mean an auto loss unless your opponent screws up). Even if I have 5 mons on a team that Walrein can't switch into and set up a sub, the one that does will lose me the game if it is ever on the field and the Walrein player is smart. I had a Walrein set up on my Moltres -_-

Now about hail offense, if you had asked me about hail offense like a month ago I would have said it isn't even close to broken, but that was before I realized my team held two of the best offensive hail counters in the tier. Mixed Absol and Modest Scarf Manectric with flamethrower make hail offense falter late game, but don't necessarily fit onto every team. I went back to using this team even though it had been retired, because probably 1/4 teams on the suspect ladder were hail, which was extremely annoying. I actually still don't know if I feel hail offense deserves a ban (leaning yes?) but I will most likely vote to ban hail because ice body pokemon (not just Walrein) make the risk of using certain pokemon (read: a large portion of RU and below) to high if you want a consistent team.

 

[branflakes]

While I agree that Walrein is broken when used well, I think it would be a shame if that stupid sub protect strategy is the reason why hail gets banned altogether. Being a hail user, I have run into some interesting anti-hail strategies as simple as Sunny Day Gallade. There are so many pokemon that can change weather and use it to their own advantage while destroying both offensive hail teams and hail stall. Overall, the suspect ladder seemed to have more manectrics, mixed absols, max speed custap crustles and random weather moves probably due to hail being suspect tested. In other words, the teams I have faced in the suspect ladder have led me to believe that hail teams are not broken with the exception of Stallrein strategies. Considering that hail strategies can be thwarted with one move or a change in a single pokemon's set, I don't think hail centralizes the metagame to the point where it should be banned.

I'm not too familiar with how anti-hail strategies fare against standard non-hail teams, but I assume that whatever it is that has to be sacrificed for hail counters isn't usually significant. I'm aware that many RU pokemon suffer from 4MSS, but there are still pokemon who can fit a weather move in their sets (eg rain dance uxie/sunny day moltres), which makes it really difficult for hail teams to thrive.

@atomicllamas: I actually managed to save my glicko and get the reqs. All thanks to you missing that Absol fireblast lol

 

[DittoCrow]

What other mons are there that you can slap weather moves on without drawbacks? Uxie has insane 4mss and Moltres has to forego HP Grass which is very important, so those aren't good examples.

I've been testing Crustle and Klingklang lately due to all the hail teams. Crustle is pretty good overall and is pretty effective vs hail due to Rock Blast (provided that it hits...). However, Klinklang is pretty shitty vs anything other than hail, and it was really a waste of a teamslot in those situations. I can't really think of anything else to combat Walrein other than what I listed in the hail discussion thread and what atomicllamas said.

 

[branflakes]

I guess I'm not familiar with Uxie enough to say it won't have 4MSS issues, but Moltres can run a very effective set with Flamethrower/Fireblast, Solar Beam, Sunny Day and Roost. Sure, it doesn't fit on every team but it's something to consider. As for other temporary weather inducers, there's RD Accelgor, RD Manectric, Swift Swim users who set up their own RD, special attacking fire types, RD and SD Druddigon, Mesprit and Hariyama. There's also Qwilfish who can probably fit RD in its set without significant drawbacks. I've even seen Sandstorm Aerodactyl but that's a bit of a stretch. My point is that there are so many RU pokemon that have access to weather moves, and there's a good chance that one of these can fit somewhere on your team without having to sacrifice much.

Also I agree that Klinklang is bad. Even against hail sometimes.

 

[phantom]

Uxie has a weather support set, fyi. Which is still really effective. Honestly, fitting a weather move on your team isn't as hard as your making it up to be. And the cost of sacrificing one move slot to completely screw over an entire play style really speaks volumes on how good of an investment it can be. Second, when it comes to dealing with dedicated weather teams, this is where you can see evidence of how terrible of a Pokemon Snover is. You're forced to play carefully with Snover, otherwise, get ready to be swept. The fact of the matter is that most people are willing to have Snover act as a sack for a more valuable teammate (think glaceon, walrein, ect) to come in safely on a certain threat and other times, it just dies in the first few turns because of it's little value outside of setting hail. I've used hail against opposing weather teams and I can safely say I only won because I got a lucky crit, freeze, what have you. It's not because my team is bad or anything, I can handle everything else just fine, but the reason why hail struggles so badly against these teams is because of Snover's utter incompetence as a teammate. There are ways to deal with hail, this just one of the many. I'm also really annoyed with this ban happy vendetta and the fact that some are willing to say lol dewgong(which I've used before) is somehow on the same level or even close to Walrein. All I'm saying is, if you're going to want to ban hail, at least remain impartial to whatever arguments you present and don't just pull any argument out of your ass if you think it sounds good. If people were willing to adapt, I'm sure you could find ways to deal with hail.

 

[Pocket]

OK, Oglemi, thanks for clarifying. I would also like to emphasize what Oglemi posted:

Here's the catch about SubProtect though: it doesn't work if I can't poison the opponent. If they have more than 2 defensive Pokemon (that resist Ice) with Leftovers, 2 or more Steel-types not named Steelix, and/or a RestTalk user, this team will have a very hard time winning and will actually probably lose. The reason being SubProtect has to use PP every turn, RestTalk users do not. This makes it extremely easy for someone to keep Munchlax / Poliwrath / Clefable / Escavalier / whatever hidden until the hail mons come out, and just sit there and win.

If you don't manage to poison an opponent, it would take 15 turns after SR to bring down an opponent without Leftovers / Life Orb. So even Walrein is put on a timer for how long it can stall (32 turns max). Whenever I use Walrein, I'm always wary of the Protect + Sub PPs.

Alternatively, you can have a slow Pokemon that can break Walrein's Substitute (ie Escavalier), and a fast Pokemon that can dish 75+% damage to Walrein (ie Gallade's Close Combat), and Walrein's stall spree would end. Granted, Walrein is a based bulky mf so it can Poison and stall quite easily, and I have no problems taking down 4-5 mons with Walrein when using it. However, I'm interested in how other Snow Body users can attempt this with their much inferior bulk.

Oglemi, I am actually curious as to how you were able to keep Glalie's substitute up. Sure, it can outstall slower offensive mons like Absol, but 80 base Spe isn't exactly fast, and 80 / 80 defenses aren't spectacular, either. It seems very prone to being revenge-killed without the opponent giving it free turns

 

[SilentVerse]

Icecream, I would sincerely appreciate it if you could explain why Dewgong is apparently so much worse than Walrein even though it sets up on virtually the same things due to its exact same typing and similar special bulk, and is just as difficult to stop once it has a sub up. Considering you claim to have used Dewgong before, and I have outlined why I think it's just as bad as Walrein here, after having tested it thoroughly, it would be nice if you were to actually say what makes Dewgong so much worse than Walrein, rather than being all condescending about it, and claiming that the people who want hail banned are "pulling arguments out of their ass".

 

[phantom]

Less power, significant decrease in bulk, and no Roar is why.

Unlike Walrein, Dewgong doesn't have as many set up opportunities and can't break subs as easily, which can in turn, make it setup bait to bulky Substitute or taunt users. It doesn't even have roar to prevent such situations from occurring.

For example:

0 SpA Walrein Blizzard vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Uxie: 99-117 (31.42 - 37.14%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 SpA Dewgong Blizzard vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Uxie: 76-91 (24.12 - 28.88%) -- possible 5HKO

Notice how Walrein can break CM Uxie's substitute every time, while Dewgong isn't guaranteed to do so, which means if Uxie gets so much as one Calm Mind boost, it quickly becomes setup bait. Even if Walrein can't break the sub, it can quickly compensate with Roar.

0 SpA Dewgong Blizzard vs. +1 96 HP / 0 SpD Uxie: 51-61 (16.19 - 19.36%) -- possible 8HKO

Here are some other examples indicting how significant the power decrease is:

0 SpA Dewgong Blizzard vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 72-86 (23.22 - 27.74%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Walrein Blizzard vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 93-111 (30 - 35.8%) -- 37.84% chance to 3HKO after weather

Not breaking the sub 100% of the time and no phazing to even prevent it from doing so

0 SpA Dewgong Blizzard vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 156-186 (54.54 - 65.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Walrein Blizzard vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 200-236 (69.93 - 82.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dewgong can actually be setup bait if it switches into CM Sigliyph, ironically. Sigi can Calm Mind again and Roost stall.

I know you *just* called the special bulk similar, but even that isn't close. While true its SpD is 5 points higher, its HP is 20 lower, so that amount of attacks it can take isn't even comparable, as such.:

252 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 4+ SpD Walrein: 189-223 (45.1 - 53.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

252 SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 232 HP / 4+ SpD Dewgong: 181-214 (47.75 - 56.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

Notice how walrein can setup a sub on Scarf Moltres, even after SR while Dewgong cannot.

I can keep pulling out calcs and bring out other examples, but this just gets tedious. The point has already been made, dewgong is a heavily watered down version of Walrein. I don't think it's bad per say, but saying it's at the same level as walrein is absurd, really. I'm fine with people saying that it's like Walrein because of Ice Body, but please don't overstate its power.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

If we seriously got to the point where wasting a moveslot with a random weather move JUST to beat hail is being suggested this just speaks volumes about how overpowered it is. Theres simple no way to handle it consistently. Even an entire sun/rain based team isnt going to win easily because no one is going to sack snover when they see you have a weather team. Keep in mind that rain and sun teams completely fall apart when their weather is replaced while hail does not. They can just keep snover alive and bring him in on every opportunity and put huge pressure on you. I would say hail vs sun/rain seems more 50/50. Anything with ice body can spam sub+protect and completely destroy a team without any effort. Blizzards from the likes of glaceon and rotom-f are a pain to switch into and the residual damage is really crippling for anything non ice that inst named clefable. Hail is just unfair, overpowered and overall ridiculous hard to beat. Also give me a fucking break, dewgong is identical to walrein, stop dissing it like he was a piece of crap or something.