Suspect Discussion: "Hail"

[phantom]

If we seriously got to the point where wasting a moveslot with a random weather move JUST to beat hail is being suggested this just speaks volumes about how overpowered it is.

I said that was just *one* example. Nice job cherry picking.

Keep in mind that rain and sun teams completely fall apart when their weather is replaced while hail does not.

Have you ever used hail? At all? This so wrong. I suppose stallrein will somehow be as magically effective without hail, won't it? Not to mention those 70% accuracy blizzards will always land their mark, won't they?

They can just keep snover alive and bring him in on every opportunity and put huge pressure on you.

I mentioned already in my previous post why doing that isn't very feasibly and how much pressure it takes to keep it alive.

I would say hail vs sun/rain seems more 50/50.

False. It doesn't even sound like you have experience playing against it.

Anything with ice body can spam sub+protect and completely destroy a team without any effort.

It's not like Clefable, Toxic Spikes, Escavalier and a bunch of other shit doesn't exist.

Also give me a fucking break, dewgong is identical to walrein

Lol I suppose they have the same same stat spread and move pool, don't they?

stop dissing it like he was a piece of crap or something.

Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Hail teams arent made with a bunch of abusers and weather setters. Most of the mons in a hail team dont need hail and are there to cover its weakness. A dedicated sun/rain is a completely different story. ''Don't put words in my mouth.'' lol, i wasnt replying to you, that was targeted towards everyone.

 

[atomicllamas]

If we seriously got to the point where wasting a moveslot with a random weather move JUST to beat hail is being suggested this just speaks volumes about how overpowered it is.

This, so much this. This is what I was trying to say in my post, there was a point when I was trying to get reqs where I legitimately considered throwing rain dance/sunny day on a mon even though my team didn't really like it (in fact the other weathers were a disadvantage for the mons on my team). I also tried to point out that hail has led to the rise of sets like specially defensive, rest-talk Magneton, which, outside of hail, has almost no utility. I don't want to run a rest talker that resists blizzard on all of my teams to even stand a chance against hail teams. Also you should consider that stuff like Golurk and Entei can fit well on to hail teams and that sub-tect Glaceon 2hkos Magneton with HP Ground. Most teams can only afford to run 1 dedicated hail counter at most, and even that is pushing it, where as hail teams have 3 slots to cover there weaknesses.

 

[SilentVerse]

These calcs honestly prove nothing lol; the examples you picked were definitely very weak if you were trying to prove a point. imo these calcs definitely do not prove that Dewgong is so much worse than Walrein; rather, they show just how similar it is to Walrein, and how banning Walrein honestly wouldn't make much a difference.

Less power, significant decrease in bulk, and no Roar is why.

Unlike Walrein, Dewgong doesn't have as many set up opportunities and can't break subs as easily, which can in turn, make it setup bait to bulky Substitute or taunt users. It doesn't even have roar to prevent such situations from occurring.

For example:

0 SpA Walrein Blizzard vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Uxie: 99-117 (31.42 - 37.14%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 SpA Dewgong Blizzard vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Uxie: 76-91 (24.12 - 28.88%) -- possible 5HKO

Notice how Walrein can break CM Uxie's substitute every time, while Dewgong isn't guaranteed to do so, which means if Uxie gets so much as one Calm Mind boost, it quickly becomes setup bait. Even if Walrein can't break the sub, it can quickly compensate with Roar.

0 SpA Dewgong Blizzard vs. +1 96 HP / 0 SpD Uxie: 51-61 (16.19 - 19.36%) -- possible 8HKO

Here are some other examples indicting how significant the power decrease is:

0 SpA Dewgong Blizzard vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 72-86 (23.22 - 27.74%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Walrein Blizzard vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 93-111 (30 - 35.8%) -- 37.84% chance to 3HKO after weather

Not breaking the sub 100% of the time and no phazing to even prevent it from doing so

0 SpA Dewgong Blizzard vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 156-186 (54.54 - 65.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Walrein Blizzard vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 200-236 (69.93 - 82.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dewgong can actually be setup bait if it switches into CM Sigliyph, ironically. Sigi can Calm Mind again and Roost stall.

While it is true that Dewgong is hurt by the lack of Roar, you make it out to be completely helpless vs set up sweepers like SubCM Uxie, when realistically it is not. Let's face it, if you use Blizzard with Dewgong, you're still breaking Uxie's Substitute most of the time (and with minimal investment you can even guarantee it...), and while it won't be able to break the sub after a Calm Mind, Walrein can't do so either, so both Walrein and Dewgong have a 50-50 chance of winning vs SubCM Uxie should they both run Toxic (which is still a very viable option on Walrein).

Similarly, Walrein will also get stalled out by CM Sigilyph too if it switches in rofl because of Roost; idk why you'd switch Walrein / Dewgong into Sigilyph in the first place as well considering Sigilyph has, y'know, MAGIC GUARD, therefore making it impossible to stall out with Walrein / Dewgong in the first place...

The Aggron calc is a bit more relevant, but is similarly flawed in that the majority of the time, Aggron lacks Leftovers, so the better option is to simply stall out Aggron via Substitute + Protect and watch it die to Hail damage rather than attempting to kill it outright. From the calcs you've given us, we can conclude that Dewgong's lower Special Attack doesn't hinder it particularly, though it can definitely be somewhat irritating at times, and while the lack of Roar is definitely problematic, it's not really the end of the world for Dewgong either, especially considering many people who are using Walrein aren't even using Roar right now.

I know you *just* called the special bulk similar, but even that isn't close. While true its SpD is 5 points higher, its HP is 20 lower, so that amount of attacks it can take isn't even comparable, as such.:

252 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 4+ SpD Walrein: 189-223 (45.1 - 53.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

252 SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 232 HP / 4+ SpD Dewgong: 181-214 (47.75 - 56.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

Notice how walrein can setup a sub on Scarf Moltres, even after SR while Dewgong cannot.

I can keep pulling out calcs and bring out other examples, but this just gets tedious. The point has already been made, dewgong is a heavily watered down version of Walrein. I don't think it's bad per say, but saying it's at the same level as walrein is absurd, really. I'm fine with people saying that it's like Walrein because of Ice Body, but please don't overstate its power.

Ah yes, taking 2-3% more from Scarf Moltres means that Dewgong's bulk "isn't even that close" to Walrein. Gotcha. Also, idk what you're smoking, but Dewgong can still set up a sub vs Scarf Moltres so long as it Protects after switching in (or, if you predict Moltres to predict the Protect and switch, you can sub cause you'll still have a small chance of setting up a Substitute). Then there's also the fact that you're doing calcs with a Dewgong and a Walrein that aren't using maximum Special Defense investment, even though iirc it has been largely agreed that SDef Dewgong and Walrein are the way to go, and if Dewgong were to use maximum Special Defense investment, it would easily be able to set up vs Scarf Moltres anyway....

 

[phantom]

While it is true that Dewgong is hurt by the lack of Roar, you make it out to be completely helpless vs set up sweepers like SubCM Uxie, when realistically it is not. Let's face it, if you use Blizzard with Dewgong, you're still breaking Uxie's Substitute most of the time (and with minimal investment you can even guarantee it...), and while it won't be able to break the sub after a Calm Mind, Walrein can't do so either, so both Walrein and Dewgong have a 50-50 chance of winning vs SubCM Uxie should they both run Toxic (which is still a very viable option on Walrein).

Similarly, Walrein will also get stalled out by CM Sigilyph too if it switches in rofl because of Roost; idk why you'd switch Walrein / Dewgong into Sigilyph in the first place

I like how you disregard that fact that your well timed blizzard can fail and don't even start with the investment thing, running that only proves my point, ironically. Roar is also the main reason you want to switch it into certain set up sweepers. Walrein is pretty much going to guarantee that they do nothing by virtue of its phazing ability alone. Like you mention, it's basically a coin flip, but at they very least, Walrein doesn't have to rely on that if it has Roar. This is one of the reasons why Dewgong is inferior.

The Aggron calc is a bit more relevant, but is similarly flawed in that the majority of the time, Aggron lacks Leftovers, so the better option is to simply stall out Aggron via Substitute + Protect and watch it die to Hail damage rather than attempting to kill it outright.

How exactly are you going to outstall Aggron when you're risking A) getting a sub on you or B) outright Koing you back? This is a pretty unfavorable situation and you know that.

Then there's also the fact that you're doing calcs with a Dewgong and a Walrein that aren't using maximum Special Defense investment, even though iirc it has been largely agreed that SDef Dewgong and Walrein are the way to go, and if Dewgong were to use maximum Special Defense investment, it would easily be able to set up vs Scarf Moltres anyway....

I was simply using the standard evs just for an example.

Fine, but if you want a better example:

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dewgong: 270-320 (70.49 - 83.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 246-290 (58.15 - 68.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I admit the moltres example wasn't the best, and last time I chose not to use physical bulk as an example, but if you want to play this game here you go.

Again, another Pokemon that Dewgong can't set up on that Walrein can. Quit acting as if they're the same, if you want me to bring out another physical attacker that Walrein can set up in but Dewgong cannot, then be my guest.

Admittedly, their special defense isn't that different, but the overall bulk and lack of Roar is. These two factors are much more significant than you're making it seem. It's far from "irritating" when you risk being set up on or forced out yourself.

 

[SilentVerse]

Nice try, but still really poor reasoning / examples!

I like how you disregard that fact that your well timed blizzard can fail and don't even start with the investment thing, running that only proves my point, ironically. Roar is also the main reason you want to switch it into certain set up sweepers. Walrein is pretty much going to guarantee that they do nothing by virtue of its phazing ability alone. Like you mention, it's basically a coin flip, but at they very least, Walrein doesn't have to rely on that if it has Roar. This is one of the reasons why Dewgong is inferior.

I'm not going to dispute that Roar Walrein is definitely less set up bait than Dewgong is because that is indeed very true; however, what the point I am trying to prove is that outside from Roar, Walrein can be set up on just like Dewgong can. Dewgong literally only needs 20 SpAtk EVs to guarantee that it breaks SubCM Uxie's Substitute at +0; considering Walrein needs to investment some EVs into Speed as well to outspeed Lanturn, that's not a huge investment at all. Yes, Dewgong may need some investment in order to guarantee it's not set up bait; however, does this investment detract from Dewgong's bulk significant, and make it that much worse than Walrein? No, it does not, therefore it is irrelevant and does not prove your point.

I still would never switch Walrein into Sigilyph at any point unless I was ridiculously desperate and needed it to phaze it out, because CM Sigilyph is strong af and Walrein wouldn't be able to afford to take so much damage in the process of phazing it out, but um, I guess if you like having a severely damaged Walrein for the late game, uh, go ahead?

How exactly are you going to outstall Aggron when you're risking A) getting a sub on you or B) outright Koing you back? This is a pretty unfavorable situation and you know that.

Ah, because Substitute + Focus Punch is a very common set at the moment. Furthermore, if you're going in the situation of a one-vs-one where both are at 100% hp and neither has anything set up, Walrein loses as well because it just outspeeds and Head Smashes you to death. If Aggron is switching in, both Walrein and Dewgong win because they'll have a sub up; if you're switching Walrein / Dewgong into Aggron...good luck I guess?

Fine, but if you want a better example:

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dewgong: 270-320 (70.49 - 83.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 246-290 (58.15 - 68.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I admit the moltres example wasn't the best, and last time I chose not to use physical bulk as an example, but if you want to play this game here you go.

Again, another Pokemon that Dewgong can't set up on that Walrein can. Quit acting as if they're the same, if you want me to bring out another physical attacker that Walrein can set up in but Durant cannot, then be my guest.

Admittedly, their special defense isn't that different, but the overall bulk and lack of Roar is.

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Walrein: 489-577 (115.33 - 136.08%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dewgong: 543-640 (141.4 - 166.66%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ah, Walrein is setting up on Durant very easily.


I'm kinda tired of arguing about this because you're arguments are flawed in so many ways, but... yes, Dewgong lacks Roar, and that does limit it. However, aside from that, functionally, Dewgong and Walrein are so similar that I cannot see Dewgong being that much more manageable than Walrein, and as a result, imo is just as bad as Walrein. And when that difference is even smaller when you realize that most people don't even run Roar on their Walreins...is Dewgong really that different from Walrein?

 

[phantom]

Nice try, but still really poor reasoning / examples!

Lol okay, let's see then.

Walrein can be set up on just like Dewgong can.

Which again, as I've stated and you admitted Roar prevents that. You're pretty much running t-spikes support with walrein to not set just it up, but absorb it. In this case Roar is superior.

I still would never switch Walrein into Sigilyph at any point unless I was ridiculously desperate and needed it to phaze it out

#missedthepoint

The point was that it could and that ultimately differentiates it. A huge differentiation at that.

Ah, because Substitute + Focus Punch is a very common set at the moment.

Yes b/c usage somehow points to viability. Hail hovering around 4% for the past month is a nice indicator. Nice job trying to dodge the bullet there. And I'm the one with poor reasoning.

Furthermore, if you're going in the situation of a one-vs-one where both are at 100% hp and neither has anything set up

I wasn't, so don't try and cherry pick. I was mentioning a realistic situation where aggron comes in on sub version of either of the two and tries to set up. Walrein is guaranteed to stop it dewgong is not.

Also, not every Durant runs Superpower and this nothing to do with usage, but the fact that hitting moltres with Rock Slide AND the hail abusers is equally as important. Also b/c steelix is irrelevant atm and ain't getting past poli anyway. Moreover Durant would much rather use Iron Head than Rockslide in that situation just b/c the poor accuracy + hustle miss would be devastating.

But fine, i'll agree to disagree and just end it at that. You can have the last word if you'd like, I'm too tired to give a shit at this point. Roar is a pretty significant point and so is that overall bulk that lets walrein take hits more easily. They're both just as annoying but DO have differences. Dewgong is easier to deal with, but I never said it wasn't any bad.

 

[DittoCrow]

I moved all of the suspect discussion posts from the np thread to this thread. The np thread is a good resource for metagame trends and stuff outlined in the OP, so I didn't want a full out suspect discussion to be merged with ongoing discussions; plus The reason "hail" is in quotes is because the voting options are undecided as of right now. I thought the current discussion would be much more fitting in this thread. And can we please try not to be too offensive, thanks.

Sorry for breaking up the discussion!

 

[SilentVerse]

Which again, as I've stated and you admitted Roar prevents that. You're pretty much running t-spikes support with walrein to not set just it up, but absorb it. In this case Roar is superior.

Not necessarily. While I personally do prefer Roar on Walrein, it's not immediately superior to any other option like Toxic. In this case, yes, Roar is superior, but I could also list a dozen other scenarios where other moves would be superior.

#missedthepoint

The point was that it could and that ultimately differentiates it. A huge differentiation at that.

The thing is, you shouldn't have to in the first place because doing so causes Walrein to take so much damage that it becomes incredibly crippled. Besides, if your best answer to Sigilyph is to Roar it out with Walrein, you're most likely going to be swept by it when it's the last Pokemon on the opposing team.

Yes b/c usage somehow points to viability. Hail hovering around 4% for the past month is a nice indicator. Nice job trying to dodge the bullet there. And I'm the one with poor reasoning.

Ok, ask people in #rarelyused what Aggron's best set is. I guarantee you most of them probably won't answer Substitute + Focus Punch!

I wasn't, so don't try and cherry pick. I was mentioning a realistic situation where aggron comes in on sub version of either of the two and tries to set up. Walrein is guaranteed to stop it dewgong is not.

You can still guarantee it with minimal investment though...Even with 20 SpAtk EVs you're breaking Aggron's Substitute most of the time (and keep in mind it can only sub 3 times because of hail), and because this set is so rare (and not very good imo), the situations where Dewgong will lose vs Aggron while Walrein will win are scarce.

Also, not every Durant runs Superpower and this nothing to do with usage, but the fact that hitting moltres with Rock Slide AND the hail abusers is equally as important.

#fail

Lol, if you ask the top players in #rarelyused (considering usage means nothing to you I suppose) I guarantee you that they will say Durant should almost always run Superpower because Iron Head / X-Scissor / Superpower gives such good coverage. Even if they don't run Superpower, they're probably running Rock Slide or something which means that Walrein isn't setting up on Durant anyway (even though Rock Slide is bad imo because who cares about hitting Moltres when you OHKO it with +1 Iron Head after Stealth Rock...).

But fine, i'll agree to disagree and just end it at that. You can have the last word if you'd like, I'm too tired to give a shit at this point. Roar is a pretty significant point and so is that overall bulk that lets walrein take hits more easily. They're both just as annoying but DO have differences. Dewgong is easier to deal with, but I never said it wasn't any bad.

Dewgong is easier to deal with, yes, but not really by much. I suppose it ultimately comes down to whether or not you think losing Roar and having slightly less special bulk and less physical bulk is enough to make Dewgong sufficiently manageable where Walrein is not. To me though, Dewgong still does exactly what Walrein does best; set up on ridiculously powerful pkmn and then proceed to stall out the opposing team with few difficulties (admittedly a couple more than Walrein, but not a lot at all), and that's why Dewgong, imo, is just as bad as Walrein, and why they are equally broken in my eyes.

 

[phantom]

You know, I was just going to leave it at that but two of your points made me cringe. Especially since you had the gull to call me out for poor reasoning; two can play that game.

Ok, ask any person in #rarelyused what Aggron's best set is. I guarantee you most of them probably won't answer Substitute + Focus Punch!

Lol. I can see this point in particular is bugging you, so I'll stick to it. First you mentioned usage as an arguments against this point, then it's "not the best set". As if any of that refutes my point. It's irrelevant chatter. The fact that this set beats Dewgong in a realistic situation and doesn't beat walrein proves that. The second part is also your blatant hypocrisy in calling me out for poor reasoning, while yours demonstrated here is anything but. Usage and "best set" isn't going to refute anything.

Lol, if you ask the top players in #rarelyused I guarantee you that they will say Durant should almost always run Superpower because Iron Head / X-Scissor / Superpower gives such good coverage. Even if they don't run Superpower, they're probably running Rock Slide or something which means that Walrein isn't setting up on Durant anyway (even though Rock Slide is bad imo because who cares about hitting Moltres when you OHKO it with +1 Iron Head after Stealth Rock...).

Yes, b/c all the reasons I mentioned isn't a reason to run Rock slide. I already mentioned that if Durant isn't running super power it would rather use Iron Head instead of rock slide because of the fact that if the move misses, it's gg. Hustle + Low accuracy does not help. Having the chance to OHKO moltres outright also helps, b/c offensive teams aren't going to give you the chance to set up. Aside from Streelix and Poliwrath, rock slide gives you good enough coverage along with the perk of OHKOing moltres w/o a boost.

I'm pretty much done here. The rest is an agree to disagree thing and the two above points you gave have awful logic. Good Bye.

 

[Oglemi]

For the record, any offensive calcs against a Pokemon that can be poisoned when talking about SubProtect mons (Walrein, Dewgong, etc.) is pointless... you're supposed to be SubProtecting / Toxic stalling against them. Using Blizzard against Uxie for example is asinine, especially when it probably can't even break your Sub. EDIT: You would use Toxic first with either mon meaning it would get the Sub up and then Calm Mind the next turn; both Walrein and Dewgong are going to get set up on. I detail Roar later.

Defensive calcs are all that matter in this comparison, and from what I've seen there's little difference in the things that Dewgong and Walrein can set up on assuming the same spread, and Dewgong even gets bonus points for being able to outspeed Lanturn.

The lack of Roar is minor at best as its biggest function is its ability to screw over other hail stall teams, it won't even come into play against offensive teams in most situations (unless they're using something like SubCM Uxie). Surf and HP Fire I've found have more utility for their ability to beat stuff like Aggron, Durant, or Escavalier.

 

[SilentVerse]

Lol. I can see this point in particular is bugging you, so I'll stick to it. First you mentioned usage as an arguments against this point, then it's "not the best set". As if any of that refutes my point. It's irrelevant chatter. The fact that this set beats Dewgong in a realistic situation and doesn't beat walrein proves that. The second part is also your blatant hypocrisy in calling me out for poor reasoning, while yours demonstrated here is anything but. Usage and "best set" isn't going to refute anything.

Nah, you sound much more angery imho. The point I was ATTEMPTING to convey was that realistically, the circumstances in which Aggron will win vs Dewgong but not Walrein are very slim. "Best set" and usage are incredibly relevant here, because they help us weed through what is relevant and what is not. imo, Substitute Aggron is irrelevant because it's not a great set and is not commonly used; yes, I suppose that Walrein has a guaranteed win vs it while Dewgong does not, but the relevance of the set on the metagame is very important, and usage and how good the set is determines that. Like, I could bring up that SDef Suction Cups Cradily beats Roar Walrein one-on-one while Dewgong wins because of Toxic, but SDef Suction Cups Cradily is not a relevant threat in the metagame and therefore should not be considered.

Yes, b/c all the reasons I mention isn't a reason to run Rock slide. I already mentioned that if Durant isn't running super power it would rather use Iron Head instead of rock slide because of the fact that if the move misses, it's gg. Hustle + Low accuracy does not help. Having the ability to OHKOmoltres outright also helps, b/c offensive teams aren't going to give you the chance to set up.

I don't even know what set you're running at this point, so w/e. Durant should still be really running Iron Head / X-Scissor / Superpower with MAYBE Thunder Fang over one of its STABs. I would rather lose out on Moltres and hit everything else super hard (which superpower does; it's more than just for Steelix and Poliwrath rofl) than hit Moltres and get walled by a boatload of other things. Also no, I would rather risk the Rock Slide miss than have Walrein have a guaranteed opportunity to set up lol...

 

[atomicllamas]

0 SpA Dewgong Surf vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 234-276 (75.48 - 89.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dewgong/Walrein should be running surf anyways because they are pp stallers, and steel types that can't be hit by toxic are hit harder by surf...

 

[branflakes]

Back to the whole deal about throwing on a random weather move to deal with hail...

Considering how significant hail is in the current metagame, changing one move to potentially ruin a hail team seems like a pretty good deal. Obviously it depends on the team how much you would need to sacrifice to make room for this one move, but I disagree with hail teams being able to survive well without hail. With Snover gone and another weather in play, 70% accurate blizzards and lack of ice body can be a huge issue seeing as hail teams often depend on one of those two factors. Not to mention, a team centered on hail will generally be less effective in general if it relies on residual damage to do some of the work for it. I understand that making a team and then trying to find a spot to throw in a random Rain Dance or Sunny Day can seem dumb, but considering hail's presence in the metagame it would make more sense to factor a weather move during the initial planning of your team, wouldn't it?

Keep in mind, this is only ONE (somewhat cheesy) solution to beating hail teams, but its effect can be tremendous IF it isn't presented obviously (i.e. uxie + ludicolo/omastar/poliwrath = save snover at all costs). Hell, even lead Uxie by itself is one of the best answers to Snover. Just set up rocks, threaten to paralyze switch-ins and destroy Snover with a u-turn.

As for Dewgong, it's pretty much just another Walrein. The slightly lower stats hardly mean anything, but this discussion has already been beaten to death.

 

[DittoCrow]

There are a lot of irrelevant examples going on right now and I'm tired so I will try to explain the important ones. This post is meant to be general but I talk about many of your points, Icecream.

I don't think Blizzard is very relevant in calcs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Surf / Ice Beam / Super Fang are superior because half the time, Walrein will be engaging in PP wars and needs the extra PP. SubCM Uxie still has a good chance to set up a Sub on either Blizzard Walrein or Dewgong anyways.

SubCM Uxie is very uncommon, but I think what you're trying to say is that these obscure sets should become more popular to deal with Walrein? However, I think some of your(icecream) examples are pretty mediocre. For one, SubCM Uxie is hindered by hail since it can't regain HP through Leftovers, and Spiritomb, a very common teammate to Walrein, hard counters it. It's very easy to remove. I was using Uxie earlier today and found it to be pretty mediocre in the metagame as a whole, almost ineffective in most of my matches. The same goes for SubPunch Aggron which is a terrible set in my opinion since it's significantly weaker than CB / LO and thus has many more switch-ins.

I think the argument about Dewgong being inferior because it doesn't get Roar is irrelevant. Walrein actually loses to last mon Rest mons because it's using more PP. Mons like SubCM Uxie and Klinklang are uncommon and quite mediocre as stated above, so Roar isn't as useful as it's being made out to be in that aspect. The point is, Toxic is at least on par with Roar (in my experiences, better), so Dewgong's lack of Roar doesn't really hurt its effectiveness. With Toxic, Cryogonal and other Levitators are defeated. It's even more useful if the opponent has a Poison-type to nullify Toxic spikes, as you can then poison the foe anyways.

Walrein is definitely superior to Dewgong, as it gets more setup opportunities. However, Dewgong still gets a lot of opportunities especially from special attackers, proven by the calcs. Once it sets up it's as deadly as Walrein. The fact that Dewgong has lower physical defense is irrelevant when it is still getting many set up opportunities. This argument can really only be applied to stuff like Glalie and Snorunt, who severely struggle with setting up due to their lower bulk. Still, once a SubProtect mon successfully gets a Sub, the game can be over due to PP stall or residual damage KOs.

 

[Oglemi]

Oglemi, I am actually curious as to how you were able to keep Glalie's substitute up. Sure, it can outstall slower offensive mons like Absol, but 80 base Spe isn't exactly fast, and 80 / 80 defenses aren't spectacular, either. It seems very prone to being revenge-killed without the opponent giving it free turns

Sorry I forgot to reply to this last night.

There are two methods to SubProtecting and Glalie happens to be able to do both.

Method 1) The Fast Method

This means that as soon as Glalie comes in that it can start stalling to KO the Pokemon without losing any net health. This can happen against a Pokemon such as Absol. Let's say that Absol just got a kill and I send Glalie in. Absol shouldn't be carrying Leftovers so Absol is going to be losing health every turn from hail (and/or TSpikes). Glalie comes in and uses Protect turn 1, and then just switches between Sub and Protect until Absol is dead. This leaves Glalie without an intact Sub, but it leaves the opponent with a dead Absol. The opponent can then just switch in something to kill Glalie if it's faster, like Moltres, and that's the risk I face as the Glalie user as I switch it into Absol, though realistically I wouldn't send Glalie in if they still had something that would be able to take advantage of that unless I knew Walrein would be able to finish them off.

Method 2) Walrein Method

This is the way that I'll typically kill the opponent with an intact Sub. This requires my Glalie to be slower than and be able to tank a hit from the opponent, probably from like Uxie or Scarf Rotom-C, and then set up a Substitute. By switching between Sub and Protect the opponent should be KOed and Glalie should end up with an intact Sub. This is easier for Walrein to do because it's both a) way bulkier and b) slower. However, if I can see the opportunity to do so this is the most desirable situation to bring in Glalie as I should be able to continue the 32 turn stall cycle with both Glalie and Walrein at that point.


The real use to using the fast method over the Walrein method is for situations against stuff like Absol, Modest Magmortar, Adamant Kabutops, SD Gatr, non-RestTalk Magneton, etc. where neither Glalie nor Walrein will be able to both tank the hit and have enough health to set up a Sub.

 

[-Tsunami-]

Considering that something even as shitty as Glalie can be considered good / decent because of Ice Body proves that something needs to be done. Banning Walrein does not help much, as Dewgong will become the new Walrein (not to mention theres still Glaceon lol...). It really does not solve anything. This is why I am still sticking to an Ice Body + hail ban. I don't think anyone would disagree that Ice Body is the main (arguably the only) reason why hail is a suspect. Banning Ice Body + hail solves the problem of hail being broken while still allowing it to be used in the tier with strategies such as Blizzard spam. I see absolutely no reason to avoid the complex ban since it still keeps sone Pokemon such as Rotom-F viable while getting rid of the thing that pushes hail over the top. This is not OU where 'the next best thing' will become broken, as hail 100% is not a problem without Ice Body. Banning Ice Body by itself bans Glaceon from the tier, which is unnecessary. The complex ban of Ice Body + hail is clearly the way to go, especially since there is already a precedent for it.

 

[Explorer]

One other Ice Body abuser I would like to highlight is Vanilluxe. As far as stalling goes, it is inferior to Walrein, but it has several advantages to justify its use if Walrein gets banned:
1. No Grass/Electric weaknesses
2. Higher base speed
3. TAUNT- this is the big one, allowing Vanilluxe to completely shut down almost any Walrein. Since Vanilluxe is immune to hail's passive damage, Walrein can't just spam Super Fang until Vanilluxe dies. A set of a combination of Taunt and Toxic/Blizzard/Substitute/Protect can allow Vanilluxe to easily beat any Walrein without Roar 1v1.

Since Walrein is argued by many to be broken these guys might start running around to act as a stallbreaker.

 

[Honus]

One other Ice Body abuser I would like to highlight is Vanilluxe. As far as stalling goes, it is inferior to Walrein, but it has several advantages to justify its use if Walrein gets banned:
1. No Grass/Electric weaknesses
2. Higher base speed
3. TAUNT- this is the big one, allowing Vanilluxe to completely shut down almost any Walrein. Since Vanilluxe is immune to hail's passive damage, Walrein can't just spam Super Fang until Vanilluxe dies. A set of a combination of Taunt and Toxic/Blizzard/Substitute/Protect can allow Vanilluxe to easily beat any Walrein without Roar 1v1.

Since Walrein is argued by many to be broken these guys might start running around to act as a stallbreaker.

You're talking in terms of using Vanilluxe if Walrein gets banned but then you talk about Taunt shutting down Walrein lol, also

A set of a combination of Taunt and Toxic/Blizzard/Substitute/Protect

Toxic is probably a scratch, since the last 3 are absolutely needed, and Blizzard isn't doing anything to Walrein in the snow. Honestly Taunt seems pretty bad on this thing, it's only helpful to solidify a SubProtect sweep when Toxic spikes are up by preventing roar/ww but given that most of the tiers phazers hate blizzards anyways and the ones who don't can just be killed with strategic play or hazards . Taunt is pretty mediocre on Vanilluxe given that it can just sub to prevent status moves and stall out setup sweepers, I think it really needs Toxic in its fourth slot, or at the very least HP Ground, which is the other slash on the site's analysis, Taunt is going to be very situational and probably a waste of a slot. I guess I see its use as a stallbreaker but Blizzard's 8 pp is going to be a real bitch, especially if they have a Slowking on their stall team which can just keep healing them off, Cryogonal can probably take on Vanilluxe really well, too.

 

[Explorer]

So how about Toxic/Taunt/Substitute/Ice Beam (over Blizzard for PP)? Hidden Power Fire comes to mind for stallbreaking outside of hail since Ferroseed and Tangrowth are weak to it, not to mention Escavalier.

You're talking in terms of using Vanilluxe if Walrein gets banned but then you talk about Taunt shutting down Walrein lol, also


Toxic is probably a scratch, since the last 3 are absolutely needed, and Blizzard isn't doing anything to Walrein in the snow. Honestly Taunt seems pretty bad on this thing, it's only helpful to solidify a SubProtect sweep when Toxic spikes are up by preventing roar/ww but given that most of the tiers phazers hate blizzards anyways and the ones who don't can just be killed with strategic play or hazards . Taunt is pretty mediocre on Vanilluxe given that it can just sub to prevent status moves and stall out setup sweepers, I think it really needs Toxic in its fourth slot, or at the very least HP Ground, which is the other slash on the site's analysis, Taunt is going to be very situational and probably a waste of a slot. I guess I see its use as a stallbreaker but Blizzard's 8 pp is going to be a real bitch, especially if they have a Slowking on their stall team which can just keep healing them off, Cryogonal can probably take on Vanilluxe really well, too.

 

[Endeby]

I'd prefer if all voters posted here and joined in on the hail discussion too and gave their opinion on the power of the playstyle (or parts of it) in the current metagame as well.

Okay. Writting down some quick thoughts before I hit the bed. I apologize for any clumsy grammar that might and will occur.

I got reqs by using a hail stall team. I also gave some of my older teams and random 5 min made teams a run for the sake of playing against hail with a "normal" team.

The biggest problem I have noticed against Hail stall is that you have to be pretty specific about the Pokemon you pick to not have a huge if not massive team disadvantage. With my Hail stall team, I regulary ran into matches I automatically won if Qwilfish got as much as one layer of Toxic Spikes on the opponent's side of the field. Now obviously, those opponents were not of the most solid players on the ladder and can mostly blame themselves for creating a team that can't stand up the metagame. With that said, not all of the teams that got ran over would be shabby against something that couldn't use Protect/Substitute for the win.

On the flip side, Hail stall can be really one-dimensional. Snover, Walrein and Qwilfish are more or less mandatory and there's not a huge amount of different Pokemon that seem viable in the last three slots. It's far from impossible to create teams that have a huge matchup advantage against Hail stall. For this reason, a few of my ladder games were also almost unwinable from the get-go! This could of course be due to some flaws in my team building, but I don't think you can do too much if your opponent bring several Pokemon that can deny your Hail+Toxic stall. Going overboard with it could easily make your team weak to something else, though!

In short, I think Hail stall bend the RU metagame around it to a point I don't find healthy in a tier that has traditionally been perhaps the most balanced one in BW. I will probably vote ban of some sort, but I'm not sure how far we have to go.

I don't know too much about Hail offence yet. The few I meet were easily manageable by my Hail stall. I hear they can be strong though. I will give it a run before the voting begins.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Right, this was the first time I used a Hail team for an entire round, and I guess I'll post my thoughts on it. I'll say straight away though that something needs to be done. Hail is an incredibly destructive strategy in RU because of the Ice Body shenanigans, 6.25% chip damage on practically everything, and of course Blizzspam. I used a Hail offense team for most of the round that kind of focused on Blizzspam (Specs Glaceon/sometimes LO Jynx, Scarf Rotom-F and of course the mighty Snover, but more on the little guy later). Specs Glaceon has absolutely tremendous power, 2HKOing bulky resists such as Lanturn is phenomenal so that Rotom-F can clean up. I initially thought that its low Speed would be an issue, but it really wasn't. Glaceon is faster than the walls it's supposed to crush, and since I had Trick Room Slowking on my team i could just let it go to town vs offense as well. Here are some insane Glaceon calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 261-307 (78.14 - 91.91%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 143-168 (35.66 - 41.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Spiritomb: 301-355 (99.01 - 116.77%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 243-287 (86.47 - 102.13%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 216-255 (89.25 - 105.37%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 300-353 (56.17 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 249-294 (63.19 - 74.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I mean just look at this. Keep in mind that Hail adds an extra 6.25% damage on to these calcs, AND that Glaceon recovers 6.25% HP every turn. Two Pokemon I faced that could really take Glaceon on were defensive Cryogonal and Slowking (which weren't really issues because Escavalier just Pursuited them) and Walrein (which was admittedly extremely annoying, I could only beat it by using Hidden Power Fighting on the switch) In short, Glaceon more or less can murder stall teams simply by spamming Blizzard, and give offensive teams hell under Trick Room as well. Doesn't do much against Hail stall though. The second part of the Blizzspam core comes with Rotom-F, who murders the offensive teams Glaceon can't if I don't get Trick Room up, or generally just clean up after Glaceon has Blizzarded everything.

I honestly am surprised that people seem to prefer a Walrein / Ice Body / Ice Body+Hail Ban, rather than just an outright Hail ban. Hail offense is as destructive as Hail stall in my eyes due to being able to spam a 120 BP STAB move with multiple powerful Pokemon that cannot miss, has great super effective coverage and can freeze (yes this is actually pretty big, I've been in a couple of situations where freezing something heavily contributed to me winning the game). What it really boils down to in my opinion is this little bugger:

Snover @ Focus Sash
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Toxic / Protect

It's really kind of scary how much Snover isn't dead weight. People used to say the same thing about Politoed in OU, until they realized that it was either a pretty damn solid defensive Pokemon, or one of the most vicious heavy hitters in the tier. The support that Snover brings to a team is really impressive (at least on the ladder). It can either Blizzard an offensive Pokemon for high damage (and with max speed in actually outspeeds a bunch of walls lol), Giga Drain stuff sometimes, HP Fire the 4x weaks who he also outspeeds, and of course, Toxic. Toxic is a reallx cool move on Snover, as in conjunction with Hail, can EASILY wear down loads of things that give Hail teams trouble. I've lost count of the number of times opponents have lead with Gallade, Emboar, Slowking, Cryogonal etc, who all despise being Toxiced. I know that no competent player will let Snover get off more than one kill per game, but thankfully the ladder isn't really competent, and Snover usually nets itself a kill and a half, or a crippled Pokemon. Basically my opinion is that we should just ban Snover, as the support it brings to its team is really out of this world, be it a defensive or an offensive team.

EDIT: idk shake, hail+ice body certainly would be a step in the right direction, but jynx can still be used over glaceon in combo with rotom-f. similar power, an immunity, higher speed, better movepool kinda make up for lack of ice body and has more physical bulk :s

 

[-Tsunami-]

The reason that I feel that an Ice Body + hail ban is better is because I really do not think that hail offense is broken without Glaceon. If you take away hail offense's best offensive threat, the style becomes worse. I think keeping hail in the tier is perfectly fine, as it can definitely be managed without any Ice Body Pokemon / Glaceon. As I said before, there's no more tier shifts and no new Pokemon that are going to be introduced such as in OU where Keldeo and Tornadus-T made some people feel that Drizzle was broken. I still see Ice Body + Snow Warning as the best ban option.

 

[august]

ok so im posting to say: if you are going to do walrein calcs itt, dont use the onsite spread.

232 hp / 252 sdef / 4 def / 20 spe calm for specially defensive
232 hp / 252 def / 4 sdef / 20 spe bold for physically defensive

anything in between is just trying to make a "mixed wall" stallrein which results in more inefficiency for stalling

 

[shoogle]

I'm not a great player nor experienced in RU, so this isn't exactly a balance viewpoint, but I personally think having only 1 perma-weather user in any tier is a bad thing, regardless of how good or bad that weather is. Either a tier should have all 4 weathers like OU, or no auto-weather at all in my opinion.

The reason for this is simply because there is zero strategy or difficulty in keeping up your weather up if there is nothing else to change it. The hail user just has to send out snover on turn 1 and hail will be up for the rest of the match, unless you carry a manual weather-starter which is not only rare but not a very satisfactory counter anyway - it requires you to use up a valuable moveslot (and possibly an item slot if you want to run a duration boosting rock), switch in the pokemon safely and then be a sitting duck for a second turn while you use the sunny day/rain dance/sandstorm. The opponent has 2 separate turns to either kill you, taunt you, set up on you or just do crippling damage so your mon can't switch in and continue to do its job effectively for the rest of the match. And if that wasn't bad enough, even if you successfully get the weather move off, snover can switch back in and instantly hail is permanently back, and you don't have a single turn to prevent this.

Sure, the hail user has to use up a teamslot for the shitty mon that is snover so it might well be theoretically balanced, but I personally hate strategies where you just have to sit back and take it. As much as I hate the omnipresent weather wars of OU, I find playing weatherless vs perma-weather of any kind to be far more unpleasant.

Also, I've played against stallrein a few times and I have never experienced such a potent combination of mind-numbing boredom and acute, hair-pulling frustration. It is seriously the least fun thing to face in the whole of pokemon, other than maybe sub/swagger liepard which is annoying for more luck based reasons.

So that's my take on this.