-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Gen-NEXT development thread
- Thread starter Zarel
- Start date
- Status
Interesting metagame. Signature moves is a great mechanic. Plus, I loved how some specific items were buffed when used with a certain type. Hope to see more of this (such as editing an item to give it more bonuses to steel-type pokemons or stuff, in the same way it was done with Big Root, Black Sludge and others)
Ambipom with shadow force is an extremely good choice as well, since it's the only user of it (while the move still gains technician boost as well a 100% ghost curse)
By the way, in the end of the README, it seems Kyurem is banned. So why does he have a signature move?
Ambipom with shadow force is an extremely good choice as well, since it's the only user of it (while the move still gains technician boost as well a 100% ghost curse)
By the way, in the end of the README, it seems Kyurem is banned. So why does he have a signature move?
It's for NEXT-Ubers, which will be released after I'm done with NEXT-OU.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
I'm interested in this. One minor suggestion: could Energy Ball be buffed to 90 base power? At 80 BP, it's almost completely outclassed by Giga Drain, so giving it that boost would make people think a little bit more about which move to give to their offensive grass type.
I also think that all 90-95% accurate moves (Leech Seed, Toxic, Air Slash, etc.) should be buffed to 100% accuracy. Never really understood the purpose of the slight reduction of accuracy in those moves.
I also think that all 90-95% accurate moves (Leech Seed, Toxic, Air Slash, etc.) should be buffed to 100% accuracy. Never really understood the purpose of the slight reduction of accuracy in those moves.
Interesting meta.... I can see lots of stuff being viable
Marowak should love this meta. Fire Punch + 90 base power Aerial Ace hits everything that resists Bonemerang for SE damage. I must now go make a TR team.
I'm thinking about using a Snorlax set that uses Snore, now that Snore is pretty good. Quick question: are the new abilities for the starters replacing the DW abilities? I kind of wanted to use a Sheer Force Feraligatr.
one of the things i've been having fun with is technician + solarbeam roserade with sun support. solarbeam is effectively 180 bp PLUS stab, like a special v-create with no drawbacks, and in the event of the weather changing it's got a great charge effect that roserade is specially bulky enough to take advantage of. roserade's movepool doesn't have a single other special move that's good with technician other than base 59/60 hidden power, which i can't get to work on showdown. and i really wish it got acid spray. but it still hits outrageously hard with solarbeam, and gets weather ball on top of that.
Roserade now gets the 60 bp sludge which always poisons, which is a cool move to use. Doesn`t provide important coverage, but after stab and technician it does have 135 bp.
oh i had seen roserade got sludge now but i forgot to check and see if sludge itself had changed! that's pretty cool. i still think i'd prefer acid spray though. but then again it might be tricky to take advantage of with a scarf, which is what i run.
Quick question, does Solar Beam hit past Substitutes and Protect only when it charges up? And does it still heal the user if the weather isn't Sunny Day, and the user is holding a Power Herb?
it still hits through subs and protect in sun, yes. it doesn't heal in sun, and i was told it doesn't heal if it doesn't charge, but i haven't specifically tested it with a power herb so who knows. i would think if they thought of disabling the effect in sun they would have thought of doing it with power herb, though.
a Pokemon that i feel needs a buff is Hippowdon his usage is fairly low in OU (#47 in the average usages of the past 3 months on Pokemon Showdown, only 5 Pokemon away from becoming uu) and could use a buff. Especially if it helps to increase the viability of defensive teams. I am not quite sure what buff would accomplish that but he is currently solidly outclassed by Tyranitar(yes Hippowdon has a little better bulk physical bulk and realiable recovery but Tyranitar is still a much better pokemon overall proven by his usage). i feel the easiest way to buff him would be a signature item or perhaps a signature status move if signature status moves are implemented(but i dont really see how to make status moves signature many people have posted about it and i am open to the idea). one other way that is more complex but i still believe flavorful enough could deal with this could be to give all current weather inducers intrinsic weather starting abilities and give all weather inducers new abilities with the more useful abilities going to Hippowdon and Abomasnow while Tyranitar and Politoed only get semi useful abilities to balance out their higher usage with Ninetales getting an ability that falls somewhere in the middle. i do not currently have any abilities in mind but am open to suggestions.
(btw i think the new weather system is loads better than the current system and will do a good deal of re-balancing the metagame on its own)
all in all an amazing metagame i cant wait till an official mod is implemented on the main server. Good job Zarel
*edit one other thing i noticed was that hydregion didnt get intrinsic levitation is this just because it doesnt need the buff or was it an oversight?
(btw i think the new weather system is loads better than the current system and will do a good deal of re-balancing the metagame on its own)
all in all an amazing metagame i cant wait till an official mod is implemented on the main server. Good job Zarel
*edit one other thing i noticed was that hydregion didnt get intrinsic levitation is this just because it doesnt need the buff or was it an oversight?
Last edited:
surewood96, Hydreigon hasn't gotten a replacement for Levitate yet, along with a few other Levitators. Upon discovering this I had the uncontrollable urge to suggest replacement abilities for all of them.
- Solrock; Drought or Solar Power (for obvious reasons)
- Lunatone; Solid Rock (because of it's appearance), Intimidate (Sapphire: "The Pokémon's intimidating red eyes cause all those who see it to become transfixed with fear."), or Solar Power (because of it's connection to the lunar cycle and the moon, which gives reflected light from the sun)
- Chimecho; Soundproof (because it's a bell), Suction Cup (it has one on its head), or Gluttony (it loves eating berries)
- Lati@s; Serene Grace, Telepathy (they communicate telepathically), Illuminate (they can refract light), or Illusion (they can refract light to change their appearance, but would likely be too powerful)
- Hydreigon; Anger Point or Sheer Force (to match its aggressive tendencies).
- Carnivine; Gluttony? (its pokedex entries all talk about how it eats things)
- Rotom; Adaptability (because of it's form changing), or Prankster (to match its mischievous nature)
- Rotom-W; Storm Drain, Motor Drive, Water Absorb or Damp
- Rotom-H; Flame Body, Motor Drive, or Flash Fire
- Rotom-C; Sap Sipper, Motor Drive, or Hyper Cutter
- Rotom-F; Ice Body or Motor Drive
- Rotom-S; Motor Drive
Last edited:
one more change that i think could be interesting and add to the feeling of having a next generation pokemon game would be adding in CAP's as new OU threats most don't need buffs and should be a fairly easy change to put in place if others like it.
Last edited:
@surewood96 CAPs are cool and all, but there is absolutely no reason to put them in here. At all. It's not something that Game Freak would ever do, so it's not gonna be done here.
I've been sitting on a few ideas for NEXT, so I figured that I might as well post them already. I'll mention some considerations that guide my thought process:
Issue: Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, and Sand Rush often make it completely impossible to be outsped. Many teams often have absolutely no way to prevent this or deal with it.
Proposal: Make these abilities increase speed by 1.5x instead of 2x
Rationale: This would greatly improve any team's ability to respond to Pokemon with these abilities with a Choice Scarf user while still maintaining their function. Some extremely slow abusers of these abilities would suffer, like Beartic, Armaldo, and Omastar. However, it would also improve the relative utility of users like Floatzel who are already fast.
On to more general suggestions:
Issue: Castform was buffed with the improvement of Forecast. It's still neither used nor usable.
Proposal: Make Forecast induce a permanent weather corresponding to the weather stone held by Castform on switch-in.
Rationale: There's no variation in weather inducers, which is just as boring as the original OU state. Castform's inferior stats and movepool mean that even with this ability, the other weather setters may often be preferable. In addition, the very fact that it has an awful movepool makes carrying an additional weather an interesting option as an anti-weather tool.
Issue: Cloud Nine and Air Lock are relatively weak abilities that don't function the way most people expect.
Proposal: Make Cloud Nine and Air Lock induce a no-weather state on switch-in.
Rationale: This lends some much-needed function to Cloud Nine users as anti-weather tools. Lickitung and Lickilicky especially would have some viability on non-weather teams as clerics. Technically speaking, Rayquaza does not need the buff.
Issue: Unnerve is a far too specific ability; every user has better options.
Proposal 1: Rework Unnerve as a special-intimidate, reducing Special Attack by 1 stage on switch-in.
Rationale: This is a far more attractive ability across the board, and the flavor certainly rings true. Several Pokemon eligible for Unnerve also get Volt Switch or U-Turn: especially notable are Galvantula, which would really only lose the use of Zap Cannon and Thunder, and Persian, which would no longer be able to take advantage of Technician. Masquerain benefits from an increase to its special bulk as a Quiver Dance abuser. Vespiquen would also like an upgrade from the ever-useless Pressure. Tyranitar is an interesting dilemma: Sandstorm's boost to the Sp. Def of Rock types carries a similar effect, but after being dethroned as a primary weather inducer, Unnerve could be used to push Tyranitar's special bulk even higher alongside Probopass. This would also be a useful ability when/if NEXT Doubles is implemented.
Alternative: Rework Unnerve so that casts Embargo on switch-in (Or blocks the opponent's use of items entirely as long as the user is in play).
Rationale: This version is certainly closer to the effect and intent of the original ability, even if it is somewhat less usable. More finesse is necessary to switch into a situation when this effect is favorable, but it could significantly weaken users of Choice items or Life Orb.
Issue: Howl is too weak to be used viably.
Proposal: Add the effect and negative priority of Roar to Howl, making it a boosting phazer.
Rationale: Howl is now an extremely unique, interesting, and usable move that prompts predictive play and can rack up hazard damage while building power. Many of the Pokemon who learn Howl also get Intimidate, allowing them to run a bulky set which disincentivises switching out of the attack drop even further. Arcanine could certainly run Howl/Flare Blitz/Extremespeed alongside Will-O-Wisp or Morning Sun, and Stoutland's respectable bulk allows it to use this version of Howl easily. Luxray can also run it with Guts, making it almost impossible for a utility Pokemon to wall it or do anything against it. Mightyena struggles as ever, but Sucker Punch+Howl would probably become the strongest combination available to it.
Alternative 1: Make Howl raise the attack of the next Pokemon to switch in, like Flower Gift.
Rationale: I think it was actually Zarel who mentioned this? In any case, this would also help increase Howl's power while also giving it a unique effect. It would be less generally useful, probably being best on Stoutland or Arcanine to help the team.
Alternative 2: Make Howl also drop the attack of the opposing Pokemon one stage.
Rationale: This accentuates the attack drop of Intimidate, making it hard on anyone who wants to stay in against a Howl user.
Issue: Cute Charm is far too unreliable to be used.
Proposal: Rework Cute Charm so that it casts Attract on switch-in.
Rationale: Alright, Infatuation is still really unreliable and narrow. And it's also really obnoxious when it works. But this would give it the ability the potential to impact a match. It is also another ability that would have an expanded use in NEXT Doubles.
Alternative: Update Cute Charm to status quo so that it always causes Infatuation when hit, like Poison Point and Static.
Rationale: A basic policy update. I think this speaks for itself.
Issue: White Smoke was not updated with Clear Body, an identical ability.
Proposal: Update White Smoke to match Clear Body's new functionality.
Rationale: Because status quo. But there's more: it gives Torkoal some powerful options. Overheat and Shell Smash now have no downside on an offensive Torkoal. It can run a solid Shell Smash set with Overheat/Earth Power/Hidden Power or a mixed set with Overheat/Stone Edge and Earthquake or Earth Power. The power of Shell Smash is kept in check by Torkoal's low speed, making it fairly easy to revenge kill since no boost will ever make Torkoal fast. Heatmor also gets an improved Superpower, but it wouldn't do much to make it great.
Alright, that's it for today.
- If an option receives any special attention at all, then it should be improved until it is viable in at least one meaningful niche.
- Outside of policy updates, a Pokemon should not be changed if it is likely to remain unused in a competitive context afterward.
- A change which clearly and universally eliminates the viability of another option is not a good one (changes should equalize, not replace).
- While large variations in move usability serve a purpose in-game, a competitive metagame gains more from equivalence in options when it does make play impractically unpredictable.
- There should always be some greater reason for a change than "It would be interesting if..." (changes should be purposeful).
Issue: Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, and Sand Rush often make it completely impossible to be outsped. Many teams often have absolutely no way to prevent this or deal with it.
Proposal: Make these abilities increase speed by 1.5x instead of 2x
Rationale: This would greatly improve any team's ability to respond to Pokemon with these abilities with a Choice Scarf user while still maintaining their function. Some extremely slow abusers of these abilities would suffer, like Beartic, Armaldo, and Omastar. However, it would also improve the relative utility of users like Floatzel who are already fast.
On to more general suggestions:
Issue: Castform was buffed with the improvement of Forecast. It's still neither used nor usable.
Proposal: Make Forecast induce a permanent weather corresponding to the weather stone held by Castform on switch-in.
Rationale: There's no variation in weather inducers, which is just as boring as the original OU state. Castform's inferior stats and movepool mean that even with this ability, the other weather setters may often be preferable. In addition, the very fact that it has an awful movepool makes carrying an additional weather an interesting option as an anti-weather tool.
Issue: Cloud Nine and Air Lock are relatively weak abilities that don't function the way most people expect.
Proposal: Make Cloud Nine and Air Lock induce a no-weather state on switch-in.
Rationale: This lends some much-needed function to Cloud Nine users as anti-weather tools. Lickitung and Lickilicky especially would have some viability on non-weather teams as clerics. Technically speaking, Rayquaza does not need the buff.
Issue: Unnerve is a far too specific ability; every user has better options.
Proposal 1: Rework Unnerve as a special-intimidate, reducing Special Attack by 1 stage on switch-in.
Rationale: This is a far more attractive ability across the board, and the flavor certainly rings true. Several Pokemon eligible for Unnerve also get Volt Switch or U-Turn: especially notable are Galvantula, which would really only lose the use of Zap Cannon and Thunder, and Persian, which would no longer be able to take advantage of Technician. Masquerain benefits from an increase to its special bulk as a Quiver Dance abuser. Vespiquen would also like an upgrade from the ever-useless Pressure. Tyranitar is an interesting dilemma: Sandstorm's boost to the Sp. Def of Rock types carries a similar effect, but after being dethroned as a primary weather inducer, Unnerve could be used to push Tyranitar's special bulk even higher alongside Probopass. This would also be a useful ability when/if NEXT Doubles is implemented.
Alternative: Rework Unnerve so that casts Embargo on switch-in (Or blocks the opponent's use of items entirely as long as the user is in play).
Rationale: This version is certainly closer to the effect and intent of the original ability, even if it is somewhat less usable. More finesse is necessary to switch into a situation when this effect is favorable, but it could significantly weaken users of Choice items or Life Orb.
Issue: Howl is too weak to be used viably.
Proposal: Add the effect and negative priority of Roar to Howl, making it a boosting phazer.
Rationale: Howl is now an extremely unique, interesting, and usable move that prompts predictive play and can rack up hazard damage while building power. Many of the Pokemon who learn Howl also get Intimidate, allowing them to run a bulky set which disincentivises switching out of the attack drop even further. Arcanine could certainly run Howl/Flare Blitz/Extremespeed alongside Will-O-Wisp or Morning Sun, and Stoutland's respectable bulk allows it to use this version of Howl easily. Luxray can also run it with Guts, making it almost impossible for a utility Pokemon to wall it or do anything against it. Mightyena struggles as ever, but Sucker Punch+Howl would probably become the strongest combination available to it.
Alternative 1: Make Howl raise the attack of the next Pokemon to switch in, like Flower Gift.
Rationale: I think it was actually Zarel who mentioned this? In any case, this would also help increase Howl's power while also giving it a unique effect. It would be less generally useful, probably being best on Stoutland or Arcanine to help the team.
Alternative 2: Make Howl also drop the attack of the opposing Pokemon one stage.
Rationale: This accentuates the attack drop of Intimidate, making it hard on anyone who wants to stay in against a Howl user.
Issue: Cute Charm is far too unreliable to be used.
Proposal: Rework Cute Charm so that it casts Attract on switch-in.
Rationale: Alright, Infatuation is still really unreliable and narrow. And it's also really obnoxious when it works. But this would give it the ability the potential to impact a match. It is also another ability that would have an expanded use in NEXT Doubles.
Alternative: Update Cute Charm to status quo so that it always causes Infatuation when hit, like Poison Point and Static.
Rationale: A basic policy update. I think this speaks for itself.
Issue: White Smoke was not updated with Clear Body, an identical ability.
Proposal: Update White Smoke to match Clear Body's new functionality.
Rationale: Because status quo. But there's more: it gives Torkoal some powerful options. Overheat and Shell Smash now have no downside on an offensive Torkoal. It can run a solid Shell Smash set with Overheat/Earth Power/Hidden Power or a mixed set with Overheat/Stone Edge and Earthquake or Earth Power. The power of Shell Smash is kept in check by Torkoal's low speed, making it fairly easy to revenge kill since no boost will ever make Torkoal fast. Heatmor also gets an improved Superpower, but it wouldn't do much to make it great.
Alright, that's it for today.
Last edited:
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
I actually do have NEXT doubles implemented on my server, but I'd rather not advertise it as it is highly unnoficial, just saying it exists lol
Great work so far, i found gen-next by accident and i've loved it ever since.
My only complaint is that snorlax with thick fat seems a bit OP, no weaknesses, high stats, can heal off any status with rest, hits ghosts with stab snore, can boost with belly drum/curse by the time you switch ur counter in. Does well in sun and hail. I think the best way to stop this monster is replacing thick fat's fighting resistance with a normal resist and possibly also grass resist. I think a normal resist makes sense flavor-wise and grass would too a bit. The grass resist would also help pokemon like mamoswine and wallrein have more bulk. With the normal resist hariyama who's hardly used at all could become a strong counter to snorlax. You could even use eviolite pignite if you wish, or you could give emboar thick fat, it's strange he doesn't get it.
Also, i think implementing known gen 6 mechanics changes would attract more players as it would give them a taste of what the metagame might be like, the mechanics i'm talking about are as follows: Ghost types are no longer affected by moves that prevent fleeing such as Mean Look. Grass Pokémon can't be seeded or affected by moves such as SleepPowder or Stun Spore (I think that includes spore). Electric types can no longer be Paralysed. They make sense flavor-wise too.
I'd also like to see priority for magnet rise, most users of it are slow like magnezone, probopass, aggron and ampharos, and it would pretty much be a counter to sand rush excadrill/flygon
My only complaint is that snorlax with thick fat seems a bit OP, no weaknesses, high stats, can heal off any status with rest, hits ghosts with stab snore, can boost with belly drum/curse by the time you switch ur counter in. Does well in sun and hail. I think the best way to stop this monster is replacing thick fat's fighting resistance with a normal resist and possibly also grass resist. I think a normal resist makes sense flavor-wise and grass would too a bit. The grass resist would also help pokemon like mamoswine and wallrein have more bulk. With the normal resist hariyama who's hardly used at all could become a strong counter to snorlax. You could even use eviolite pignite if you wish, or you could give emboar thick fat, it's strange he doesn't get it.
Also, i think implementing known gen 6 mechanics changes would attract more players as it would give them a taste of what the metagame might be like, the mechanics i'm talking about are as follows: Ghost types are no longer affected by moves that prevent fleeing such as Mean Look. Grass Pokémon can't be seeded or affected by moves such as SleepPowder or Stun Spore (I think that includes spore). Electric types can no longer be Paralysed. They make sense flavor-wise too.
I'd also like to see priority for magnet rise, most users of it are slow like magnezone, probopass, aggron and ampharos, and it would pretty much be a counter to sand rush excadrill/flygon
Signature move for magmortar - incinerate 50/60 bp (destroys opponents item unless opponent has sticky hold/flash fire or a similar ability)
The only other change i could see to recommend at this point is that while I was going through the readme I saw that drives boosts techno blast's by 1.1x which still leaves it at 85x1.1=93.5 which leaves it unviable compared to flamethrower, ice beam, thunderbolt at 95 BP each along with a secondary affect (bar water type techno blast since genesect doesnt get surf). if drives were given this boost to make techno blast viable then their boost should either be changed to 1.2x or techno blast should be made a 90 BP move. At least if the point of the drives was to make techno blast an option viable over the "elemental beams" it needs a higher BP or a secondary affect. Further reasoning for it to have a higher BP is its lower PP as most moves with only 5 PP either have a good affect or high base power.
I know that you still got more important things to take care of in regards to gen 6, (like making sure Phantom Force works properly with Prankster on Mega Banette, for example), but I have a couple questions about what your plans were for Gen-Next moving forward.
- Do you plan to continue development on GN at some point in the future?
- Up till now everything you've done was something that gamefreak could do with the relese of a new gen of games. Have you thought about changing your design philosophy such that you make changes based on things that gamefreak could have done with X and Y, (like give more old Pokemon like Blissy, Milotic, etc. Fairy typing for example)?
- Status