The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

1. Two consecutive fast and powerful attacks will usually fall Arceus-Ghost. Now don't give me the argument that this is the case for most mons, since other that fall to two hits are justifiably more powerful. (e.g. Mewtwo)

2. Not really. A sun team has Ho-oh, a rain team has Kyogre and a sand team has Tyranitar. As a last resort, one can sack a mon to beat Arceus-Ghost.

3. What you are basically saying is that CM is Ghostceus only viable set, which is even worse for it.

When I said obscure threats to Arceus-Normal I mean Skarmory, Hippowdon, Terrakion, the conditional Kabutop and lol Arceus-Fighting. Basically, Arceus with right plate and moveset can be counter/check to anything he wants. Saying that Arceus-Fighting counters Arceus-Normal is like saying Arceus-Dark counters Arceus-Ghost.

4. Can Charizard with checks and counter eliminated sweep unhindered? There is something call an element of surprise and with Extremespeed, Arceus don't care who your scaft mon is or any surprise attacks you have up your sleeves.

5. Um... What? You do know that Ekiller's priority goes beyond just picking off weak mons. At +2, priority can prevent Ekiller from actually taking damage and in the situation where it does take damage, it defenses are pretty good.

I don't consider Ghostceus to be a late-game sweeper but rather a pivot. The reason is simply that at late game, two fast mons at low health can beat a full health Ghostceus a fair price to pay. I can honestly say that Ghostceus has never contributed to taking half of my team out. Can you honestly say that you have never been sweep by ExtremeKiller?
 

Brambane

protect the wetlands
is a Contributor Alumnus
1. ExtremeKiller is very predictable and easy to play around

2. ExtremeKiller is very predictable and easy to play around

3. ExtremeKiller is very predictable and easy to play around

4. ExtremeKiller is very predictable and easy to play around

5. ExtremeKiller is very predictable and easy to play around

ExtremeKiller is a good cleaner. However, the second you see normal Arceus, you KNOW its ExtremeKiller (Wallceus is extinct from what I've seen) You know it has Swords Dance, and its going to use it. So take the time to bring in Ferrothorn, Ho-Oh, Ghostceus, Steelceus, Lugia, Groudon, Terrakion, whatever and either phaze, status it or kill it. ExtremeKiller isn't this god Pokemon (well, technically it is THE god Pokemon, but you get my point) that cannot be stopped after it sets up. Normal has almost no defensive synergy and ExtremeKiller has TERRIBLE four-moveslot syndrome. It has to run Swords Dance/ExtremeSpeed/Shadow Claw, which means it gets the wonderful choice of Recover, Brick Break, Earthquake or Refresh in the last slot.

To be perfectly honest, I've been finding Calm Mind / Judgment / Ice Beam / Fire Blast Normal Arceus better because EVERYONE thinks its going to be ExtremeKiller (Ho-Oh is 2HKO'd by +1 Judgment without rocks!)

This post may have come out dickish and offensive, but seriously people need to stop hyping ExtremeKiller
 
So take the time to bring in Ferrothorn, Ho-Oh, Ghostceus, Steelceus, Lugia, Groudon, Terrakion, whatever and either phaze, status it or kill it. ExtremeKiller isn't this god Pokemon (well, technically it is THE god Pokemon, but you get my point) that cannot be stopped after it sets up. Normal has almost no defensive synergy and ExtremeKiller has TERRIBLE four-moveslot syndrome. It has to run Swords Dance/ExtremeSpeed/Shadow Claw, which means it gets the wonderful choice of Recover, Brick Break, Earthquake or Refresh in the last slot.

Why is Ho-oh a check when the standard set has a good chance of getting OHKOed after the boost, while not doing comparable damage afterwards with its strongest move? If you run a Life Orb Ho-oh dies from recoil damage. If you run Leftovers on the phoenix Arceus can just set up a second Swords Dance (assuming the first one was set up on the switch) because of the damage output failing to even 3HKO. A lot of people have cited Ho-oh as a check and I don't really understand why. All it can really seem to do is fish for a Sacred Fire burn (bad when you consider LumCeus could exist) or Whirlwind it out (Whirlwind is a move that it rarely uses)

I've already given my opinion on Arceus (should stay where it is at top a) but Ho-oh seems like a horrible way to even check Arceus. Ho-oh is usually paired with something such as Forretress and/or Groudon that can check it though so I guess that sort of makes up for it, but still, I don't really get what makes Ho-oh even remotely deal with Arcues. Maybe this isn't the right place to put this into question, but whatever.

Relavent Calcs:

252 +2 Atk Silk Scarf Arceus (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 172 HP/0 Def Ho-oh: 89.65% - 105.56% (37.5% chance to OHKO): If you use Brave Bird or are running a Life Orb Ho-oh dies if it decides to attack on the next turn.
252 Atk Ho-oh (+Atk) Sacred Fire vs 240 HP/0 Def Arceus: 34.69% - 41.04% (3 hits to KO): The only way Ho-oh won't have any chance to die on the next attack. Unfortunately, this damage output is fairly poor. While giving it a Life Orb may result in nabbing a 2HKO, it also results in the finishing blow most of the time for Ho-oh.
252 +2 Atk Silk Scarf Arceus (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 252 HP/252 Def Ho-oh (+Def) : 60.58% - 71.39% (2 hits to KO): Even the physically defensive version gets hit really hard. Note that even if this Arceus is holding a Lum Berry, it still has a pretty good chance at 2HKOing Ho-oh at +2.
 
So Shrang brought up some points earlier that mostly involved Ho-Oh but also reinforced some other suggested movements. So I've gone ahead and made four changes,

-Heatran moved to high B. I overvalued it putting it at low A.
-Ho-Oh moved to mid A. As amazing as this Pokemon is, requiring a second slot to be dedicated to dealing with SR is too much support for something to be considered high A.
-Omastar moved to low B. It's a nice cleaner, has the punch to soften walls and can even pull off some cool hazard laying stuff.
-Poisonceus moved to mid C. As lame as it is offensively, Poison typing has some useful resists and utilities as well as allowing him to serve as an alternative Stall breaker if Steelceus/Refresh Arc isn't your thing.

If you feel any other rises/drops should be made feel free to say so. (and make sure to check the previous page to see if anybody else argued for the same thing that you can support)

As for things like Keldeo, I know I said I would add them once I finish with my tabs but I lied. I'm likely going to wait until this list is moved to a clearer spot and everything already on there settles.

(As for Ho-Oh checking ekiller, there's factors like no SR, physically defensive spread or sun. The cool, and sometimes bad, thing about using the term check is that it can get really flexible.)
 

shrang

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Okay, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding going on here. Look at the S tier description and it should be very clear on why Kyogre and Ghostceus are S rank, and why Ekiller is not.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
There are a couple of key points to take from here:
- Support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost
- Pokemon who can perform multiple roles effectly

Ghostceus and Kyogre both have these traits. Ghost Arceus can spinblock, has very little in terms of weaknesses, and actually has resistances to play around with. Ghost, unlike normal, has good defensive synergy with many Pokemon that it is played with. It resists U-turn, is immune to Fighting attacks and ExtremeKiller itself. Its bulk allows it to set up multiple times, which should noted that unlike Ekiller, makes it HARDER to kill. It can also run different sets to support the team as well, such as running Stealth Rock anti-lead, SD Shadow Force or pure defensive sets. The only thing Normal Arceus can run is Wallceus, which is arguably very good, but again, has a poor defensive typing that doesn't really grant it additional perks such as spinblocking. Kyogre being S rank should be obvious. Rain is easily the most dominant weather condition in the game, while Kyogre is versatile as hell defensively and offensively. Hell, just using something like bulky SpecsOgre means you have an offensive and defensive juggernaut all in one. Water is probably the best all round typing in terms of offense and defense in one, and Kyogre takes full advantage of this. Seriously, I've been using all sorts of different Kyogre sets over the years and its possibilities are nigh-endless. If you think all Kyogre is is Specs/Scarf or SpD, you have another thing coming.

tl;dr Ekiller Arceus is not S rank material because it doesn't fulfill the above requirements. Simple as that.
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Okay, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding going on here. Look at the S tier description and it should be very clear on why Kyogre and Ghostceus are S rank, and why Ekiller is not.



There are a couple of key points to take from here:
- Support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost
- Pokemon who can perform multiple roles effectly

Ghostceus and Kyogre both have these traits. Ghost Arceus can spinblock, has very little in terms of weaknesses, and actually has resistances to play around with. Ghost, unlike normal, has good defensive synergy with many Pokemon that it is played with. It resists U-turn, is immune to Fighting attacks and ExtremeKiller itself. Its bulk allows it to set up multiple times, which should noted that unlike Ekiller, makes it HARDER to kill. It can also run different sets to support the team as well, such as running Stealth Rock anti-lead, SD Shadow Force or pure defensive sets. The only thing Normal Arceus can run is Wallceus, which is arguably very good, but again, has a poor defensive typing that doesn't really grant it additional perks such as spinblocking. Kyogre being S rank should be obvious. Rain is easily the most dominant weather condition in the game, while Kyogre is versatile as hell defensively and offensively. Hell, just using something like bulky SpecsOgre means you have an offensive and defensive juggernaut all in one. Water is probably the best all round typing in terms of offense and defense in one, and Kyogre takes full advantage of this. Seriously, I've been using all sorts of different Kyogre sets over the years and its possibilities are nigh-endless. If you think all Kyogre is is Specs/Scarf or SpD, you have another thing coming.

tl;dr Ekiller Arceus is not S rank material because it doesn't fulfill the above requirements. Simple as that.
I think it's unfair to list only ekiller as a normal arceus set. Stall/wallceus works amazingly well being able to set up screens on each and every one of ekillers common switchins bar terrakion, support ceus can will o wisp the predictable terra switch, etc. Although stall/wallceus as a normal form is rarely used/heard of it has one massive advantage over its other forms in the sense that it gets an item. Being able to run lefties/light clay helps it wall very efficiently. Some random calcs. We might as well say that lugia offers little defensive synergy with that logic since getting hit SE by dark/ghost/ice/elec is a massive drawback not to mention sr cannot be up for it to have any chance of functioning properly. Overall normal wallceus definitely plays a roll since it has an incredibly easy time setting up since it sets up on everything that "checks" ekiller. I think that this allows it to definitely still be considered S rank.

To address the criteria, Stallceus gets free turns in the fact that normal arceus = ekiller is so prevalent in the metagame that it gets free turns. Sweep could probably atest to that and despite what melee mewtwo might say about stallceus being useless it still functions pretty well and arguably walls better than gira/lugia does.

Performing multiple roles effectively? That's easy to go with, ekiller is an excellent late game cleaner and not to mention one of the best albeit underrated walls in game. Of course there are arguments like high oppurtunity cost, shit typing and the likes but I believe that the fact that it can still run a stall set incredibly well makes it fulfill this criteria.
 

shrang

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Overall normal wallceus definitely plays a roll since it has an incredibly easy time setting up since it sets up on everything that "checks" ekiller. I think that this allows it to definitely still be considered S rank.
What? What's Wallceus setting up? Stealth Rock?

Performing multiple roles effectively? That's easy to go with, ekiller is an excellent late game cleaner and not to mention one of the best albeit underrated walls in game. Of course there are arguments like high oppurtunity cost, shit typing and the likes but I believe that the fact that it can still run a stall set incredibly well makes it fulfill this criteria.
What role does Ekiller play apart from "huh I set up and attack shit"? I guess you could say it revenges some frailer sweepers like Blaziken, but that's about it, really. However, Ghostceus and Kyogre can play multiple roles using just one set. CM Ghostceus is a sweeper, spinblocker and defender all in one. Kyogre can be both offensive and defensive using just one set (Basically anything with 252 HP / 252 SpA), not to mention bringing in the best weather effect in the game. Wallceus is good, but again, it doesn't offer anything more than a wall, while its typing is poor defensively, as well as being absolute hazard fodder.
 
There seems to be a consensus that Arceus-Normal is not S-Rank worthy. Part of the reason for the argument in the first place is due to the fact that the term viable is highly subjective. I see now that what I consider to be viable, you do not.

I don't understand how opportunity cost translate to "free turns." I define opportunity cost, as in economic, as the value of the best alternative forgone in making a choice. For example, the OC of watching tv is the value of time spent elsewhere, such as exercise. People have debated that the OC of using Arceus-Normal is that one forgoes using Arceus-Ghost who provide better team synergy. However, when one consider the existence of Giratina a/o, one sees that the value forgone has dropped significantly. On the other hand, using Arceus-Ghost come with the opportunity cost of not using Arceus-Normal, which arguably is harder to find a replacement for. The point about which Pokemon provides better team support or fit better in a variety of teams is something one comes across in teambuilding. Hence, that argument is better used to explain monthly usage statistics rather than individual Pokemon viability.
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
252hp/40def/160+ SpD/60 spd.
Light screen/reflect/recover/perish song.

Gl;hf. Despite the fact that it has no key resistances, it has no key weaknesses either. Whether it be for stalling for toxic/burn to kill or to frighten potential setup mons with perish song, it does the job fantastically. Not to mention screens make everything have a stupid amount of bulk so that qualifies as team support by defintion. Setting up is easy since it doesn't really give two shits about gira/o/skarm/ghostceus/supportceus that come in on the predicted sd. The only thing it might fear is terra but if a team is running terra as their ekiller check then it will most certainly be scarfed and easily solved by setting up reflect on the predicted switch. Not to mention after sr precious few non weather/specd special attackers can break through it which is another plus.
 

blitzlefan

shake it off!
There seems to be a consensus that Arceus-Normal is not S-Rank worthy. Part of the reason for the argument in the first place is due to the fact that the term viable is highly subjective. I see now that what I consider to be viable, you do not.

I don't understand how opportunity cost translate to "free turns." I define opportunity cost, as in economic, as the value of the best alternative forgone in making a choice. For example, the OC of watching tv is the value of time spent elsewhere, such as exercise. People have debated that the OC of using Arceus-Normal is that one forgoes using Arceus-Ghost who provide better team synergy. However, when one consider the existence of Giratina a/o, one sees that the value forgone has dropped significantly. On the other hand, using Arceus-Ghost come with the opportunity cost of not using Arceus-Normal, which arguably is harder to find a replacement for. The point about which Pokemon provides better team support or fit better in a variety of teams is something one comes across in teambuilding. Hence, that argument is better used to explain monthly usage statistics rather than individual Pokemon viability.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

I'd like to stop arguing over Normal Arceus. The opportunity cost of Normal Arceus is that there are other Arceus formes that might suit a team better. For example, a sand team may appreciate Grass Arceus more than Normal Arceus, as Normal Arceus provides no key resistances, though it might be okay with Ghost Arceus, as it can cover Tyranitar and Excadrill's Fighting-type weakness. Giratina and Giratina-O give Ghost Arceus competition, but you have to keep in mind that Giratina doesn't fit that well on offensive teams (it loses a lot of momentum) and Giratina-O lacks recovery and has more weaknesses (Dragon- and Ice-type weaknesses) that certain teams won't like. Normal Arceus is hard to find a replacement for, but other cleaners such as Kabutops, Terrakion, Excadrill, Mewtwo, etc. can work too. "The point about which Pokemon provides better team support..." is something that differentiates S Rank and A Rank, and how different Pokemon fit in teams and what they can do definitely helps explain their viability.
 

Blue Jay

The notorious Good Wife
is a Contributor Alumnus
There seems to be a consensus that Arceus-Normal is not S-Rank worthy. Part of the reason for the argument in the first place is due to the fact that the term viable is highly subjective. I see now that what I consider to be viable, you do not.

I don't understand how opportunity cost translate to "free turns." I define opportunity cost, as in economic, as the value of the best alternative forgone in making a choice. For example, the OC of watching tv is the value of time spent elsewhere, such as exercise. People have debated that the OC of using Arceus-Normal is that one forgoes using Arceus-Ghost who provide better team synergy. However, when one consider the existence of Giratina a/o, one sees that the value forgone has dropped significantly. On the other hand, using Arceus-Ghost come with the opportunity cost of not using Arceus-Normal, which arguably is harder to find a replacement for. The point about which Pokemon provides better team support or fit better in a variety of teams is something one comes across in teambuilding. Hence, that argument is better used to explain monthly usage statistics rather than individual Pokemon viability.
The only mention of viability is, in fact, the title of the thread, where "viability ranking" is as appropriate a phrase as any. The rankings themselves are made around well-defined criteria and not the ambiguity or subjectivity of the word "viable".

Opportunity cost can mean different things in different contexts. Here, where "supporting Pokemon with little opportunity cost" is concerned, it means that the Pokemon must be able to provide support without compromising its own capability. This is what makes Kyogre and Arceus-Ghost S-rank; Kyogre's Drizzle provides team support, without in any way limiting Kyogre, while Arceus-Ghost can tank effectively (because perfect coverage in 2 moves means that it is not offensively limited by running recover, unlike Ekiller), as well as spinblock, without in any way limiting its potential as a CM sweeper. Essentially, for S-rank a Pokemon must be able to fill its own role very effectively, provide team support, require little support itself and not be exploitable for opposing set up - all in one set. In A-rank you'll find many Pokemon who fall just short of being able to fill all these criteria.

"Individual Pokemon ability" is a rather abstract and misleading concept. More than anything, it is a largely irrelevant concept. Due to the nature of the competitive game (a team of Pokemon against another team of Pokemon, where switching, checking, countering, etc play crucial roles), very few Pokemon can be thought of in isolation. Deoxys-A probably has unrivalled "individual ability"; the best offenses in the game coupled with amazing speed means it could sweep entire teams. Giratina, on the other hand, has abysmal "individual ability". In fact, its standard sets do very little damage, certainly not enough to bother any Pokemon with good bulk and leftovers, never mind better recovery. On its own, it could never force a win condition. Does this mean Deoxys-A dominates the metagame and Giratina is useless? No, because Deoxys-A's sweeps are prevented by the ubiquity of Scarfmons that outspeed (and obviously OHKO) it, and Giratina's walling, spinblocking and phazing capabilities are very valuable when supported by hazards and offensive Pokemon. The metagame is always defined relatively, because different Pokemon threaten and limit each other.

This is why synergy is essential in team building. No single Pokemon can nearly handle all the opposing Pokemon it may have to face. An excellent team of 6 can come pretty darn close, though. If such a thing as "individual ability" was really a tangible concept, there would be a single team of 6 Pokemon that always outclasses any other team, because it uses the 6 best "individual Pokemon". However, if you take 6 random Pokemon from only S-rank and A-rank, you have a good chance of ending up with a relatively awful team, because competitive Pokemon is always about what a team can do, never what a single Pokemon can do on its own (even if the team is built around setting up a Pokemon to sweep).
 
You know, I'm not seeing much love for SD Ghostceus. I'm not saying it's better than CM (absolutely far from it), but it's a decent alternative to EKiller for HO teams, and certainly not unviable like some are making out. Firstly, please do not use Shadow Claw on it, Shadow Force is far superior. In fact Shadow Force is what makes it an alternative to EKiller. Whereas EKiller can't break past its counters, SD Ghostceus can beat some of them. Both Giratina formes are decimated by a +2 Shadow Force, and a Shadow Sneak from either won't even come close to 2HKOing. 252/0 Groudon is almost always OHKO'd after rocks and 1 layer of spikes (and seeing as it will switch in a lot to change the weather, this isn't difficult). Even max/max Groudon takes up to 81%. It still has steel type problems, but I personally run Fire Blast in the last slot over BB or EQ, seeing as nothing hit by those can stomach a +2 Shadow Force anyway. Ferrothorn can't switch in either, it gets 2HKO'd by +2 Shadow Force. Pretty much the only thing that stops this thing once set up is Tyranitar or really fat Arceus resists. It's not amazing, but don't write it off.

I'll stop gushing about Ghostceus and ask why fat Giratina is as high as A-? There's no doubt that it's, well, fat, but it never really does much other than sit there and be annoying. It's not even like it being really fat matters when most of the attacks that you need a switch in for in the tier hurt it really badly (Dracos, Outages, Ice Beams, etc). It would make a solid check to Kyogre, but the fact that it doesn't have reliable recovery means it gets wore down quickly. RestTalk does not compensate for this either, as depending on a dice roll can make the difference between living and dying. Then there's the fact that it's even bigger hazard bait than Lugia (at least it can sub to protect itself from Leech Seed or w/e), and it has ZERO offensive presence. I just don't see it being any higher than mid B. Any offensive set is completely outclassed by Giratina-O, and it's main role of walling physical threats is difficult when the most common attacks destroy it and it can't recover reliably.

That said, if anyone can show me its use at a high level of play, I'll gladly hear them out. I love the poke, but I just don't see it being that good in this meta.
 
Giratina is the sturdiest spin blocker in the metagame which means a lot already. Furthermore, it has massive amounts of bulk and useful resistances (yes they are useful for Spouts, Close Combats, Sacred Fires, etc.) that allow it to wall threats that many others can't. Yes, it doesn't have much offensive presence but that is where hazards (or the CM sets). You can't compare it to Lugiass either as the former can't spin block the hazards it relies on and can't even burn spikes setters (which goes a long way in wearing them out). It's not something you slap onto any teambut on stall or balance it can definitely pull its weight.
 
Sorry to bring this up again but I just checked this site and I don't want the conversation go unasnwered.

Skarm does waaay more than just counter E-Killer. It's a spike stacker, in a metagame where spikes are so crucial to nabbing key kills (Ubers is commonly known as the land of 1%, or similar sayings). It boasts very substantial physical bulk, allowing it to check almost all variants of physical Arceus, Groudon without FB/Overheat, Kyurem B, Kabutops, and SD Ludicolo (I'm not the only one that uses this right? lol). It also gets access to taunt, which is such a good move in the tier. Skarm outspeeds Ferrothorn, Forretress, and can be ev'd to outspeed things like Groudon and Dialga. This means it can keep hazards off the field for a team that doesn't want to commit to a spinner, which is so good. Seriously, get Brave Bird off your Skarm and put taunt on, it's not like being taunt bait matters when Brave Bird hits nothing anyway. So yea, please don't underrate Skarm, it's very very good.
I just think Skarm is shit in a meta where the biggest threats are special attackers. Sure you can outspeed Ferro and Forry (who can't), but Deoxys-S still shits all over you and he's more common than either of those. And if you do decide to go with taunt over brave bird, you're fucked against any sun team with a magic bouncer. At least Deoxys-S can 2hko Espeon in the sun.

E Killer can't beat Forry with Brick Break, l0l. It does less than EQ, and by then Forry has already poisoned you and you've only got a handful of turns just to take it down, let alone a team. EKiller dropping is good imo. I think I pushed for it a while back here, but the thread was kind of dying then anyway, so it's good to see it implemented straight away. Ekiller just comes at such a big opportunity cost for a team. No doubt it's terrifying when set up without checks, but its checks are so ubiquitous that its rare EKiller ever sweeps at a high level of play. The biggest thing is that it simply can't beat its checks, unlike Ghostceus or Kyogre. And then the prominence of scarf Terrakion in BW2 has really hurt it.
Well Brick Break is super effective against Forr, so it definitely does more than Earthquake. Against a max physical defense Forry, a jolly, silk scarfed +2 BB does over 50%. Against a standard ubers Ferro with 0 defense EVs, that number is more like 75%. Increase the numbers even more if you run adamant or a life orb.

Anyway we could argue about the checks for days, but I don't even think Ekiller needs to sweep entire teams to be useful. Having the strongest priority in the game coupled with great coverage and insane defenses makes him enough of a threat. Mewtwo and Kyogre take over 50% from an extremespeed, and Darkrai and Skymin take even more. Those are some of the biggest offensive threats in 1850+. No, you will probably not 6-0 someone who's good with your Ekiller, but you won't 6-0 someone with Kyogre either.
 

Blue Jay

The notorious Good Wife
is a Contributor Alumnus
Well Brick Break is super effective against Forr, so it definitely does more than Earthquake. Against a max physical defense Forry, a jolly, silk scarfed +2 BB does over 50%. Against a standard ubers Ferro with 0 defense EVs, that number is more like 75%. Increase the numbers even more if you run adamant or a life orb.
Forretress is bug/steel, bug resisting fighting. Therefore all of the above is false.

No, you will probably not 6-0 someone who's good with your Ekiller, but you won't 6-0 someone with Kyogre either.
Kyogre is listed under S-rank for so much more than the potential sweeping power of ScarfOgre.

Seriously though, can we stop discussing Ekiller, its ranking doesn't seem to be moving anywhere and virtually every half-decent argument regarding both its strengths and limitations has been made.

Also, Skymin is not a top offensive threat, lol.
 
Forretress is bug/steel, bug resisting fighting. Therefore all of the above is false.
I typed Forry, but I meant Ferrothorn. My mistake. Ekiller is not getting around a Forretress with toxic, but neither is ghostceus.

Kyogre is listed under S-rank for so much more than the potential sweeping power of ScarfOgre.

Seriously though, can we stop discussing Ekiller, its ranking doesn't seem to be moving anywhere and virtually every half-decent argument regarding both its strengths and limitations has been made.

Also, Skymin is not a top offensive threat, lol.

I just typed Skymin because off the top of my head I know he takes similar damage to Darkrai. Replace Skymin with Palkia (who has the same physical bulk as Mewtwo/Ogre) if you'd like, and that's 4 of the top 8 Pokes in 1850+ who take over 50% from an unboosted, silk scarf extremespeed unless they run defensive EVs (which none other than Kyogre ever do).
 

blitzlefan

shake it off!
Please please please please please can we stop discussing Arceus-Normal? We've honestly gone through two pages discussing it, and plenty of excellent arguments have been made to keep Arceus-Normal in high A-rank. For all the people that want to discuss Arceus-Normal, please read through all of the arguments made before you make yours.

Both the lead and the support set for Arceus-Ghost run Flamethrower just for Ferrothorn and Forretress, while Arceus-Normal is strapped for moveslots and definitely won't be running a Fire-type move. Calm Mind Arceus-Ghost probably can't get around Forretress, but as you pointed out, neither is Arceus-Normal.

Shaymin-S and Darkrai are two of the most frail Pokemon in Ubers. Obviously, if you run a team full of super frail Pokemon with no synergy, then chances are, you'll get beaten by Arceus-Normal. The argument isn't that Arceus-Normal is unable to sweep when it's checks are down; it's that Arceus-Normal has MULTIPLE checks / counters that prevent it from setting up and sweeping as easily as its Ghost-type counterpart, and has no defensive synergy and provides little to no support.

Edit: I was just looking through the analyses for Arceus-Ghost, and the lead set is Magic Coat / Flamethrower / Judgment / and then (Recover, Will-O-Wisp, and Stealth Rock) are slashed.
 
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Haruno

Skadi :)
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Please please please please please can we stop discussing Arceus-Normal? We've honestly gone through two pages discussing it, and plenty of excellent arguments have been made to keep Arceus-Normal in high A-rank. For all the people that want to discuss Arceus-Normal, please read through all of the arguments made before you make yours.

Both the lead and the support set for Arceus-Ghost run Flamethrower just for Ferrothorn and Forretress, while Arceus-Normal is strapped for moveslots and definitely won't be running a Fire-type move. Calm Mind Arceus-Ghost probably can't get around Forretress, but as you pointed out, neither is Arceus-Normal.

Shaymin-S and Darkrai are two of the most frail Pokemon in Ubers. Obviously, if you run a team full of super frail Pokemon with no synergy, then chances are, you'll get beaten by Arceus-Normal. The argument isn't that Arceus-Normal is unable to sweep when it's checks are down; it's that Arceus-Normal has MULTIPLE checks / counters that prevent it from setting up and sweeping as easily as its Ghost-type counterpart, and has no defensive synergy and provides little to no support.
Just out of curiosity what is this ghostceus lead set? Also skymin isn't really there for synergy or whatnot, it's there to annoy the living daylights out of your opponent while darkrai is pretty much there just to ko errr sleep one mon then switch out. Darkrai has little to no chance of setting up thanks to its massive gene weakness.
 

shrang

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I use SR / Judgement / ES / Flamethrower on lead Ghostceus. You easily beat Deoxys-S/A, stop Forretress from activating Custap berry as well. Good thing is that when you set up SR, it's not getting spun away quickly either, as you spin block at the same time.
 
I think we should put Arceus as a whole into S-rank. I mean it is one Pokemon after all, why should it have different tiers for different held items. It's like saying PsychoKiller Mewtwo is A-rank while Stalltwo is C-rank or something.

When I play in Pokemon Showdown I don't know what Arceus form the opponent is running until they reveal it. Arceus's ability is what makes it so unpredictable and versatile.

Also, Lugia in C-rank seems very wrong to me. It should be at least mid B consider that Lugia is the best general wall in the game.
 
Each Arceus forme is very different from another (much like the Rotom's), it's why we split them up into different analyses.

Lugia is only good at sitting there and phazing. It's got a whole heap of other problems that make it an overall mediocre Pokemon. (if it were Ghost type things would be different)
 
Gyarados should be on the rankings now since it has got an analysis. Should be D Rank imo, it's not good at all but it's about as good as Venusaur, and better than Dugtrio. Although Charizard and Shedinja are better than Dugtrio too so take your pick.

EDIT: To add to the above, Lugia is just too Spikes bait to be any good in this meta. Plus it gets curbstomped by both the S-Tier threats and can't actually wall anything (Ghostceus, Ekiller, Ho-oh in sun, Kyogre, Lati@s, Palkia, Ray, Mewtwo, Zekrom, Kyurem-W, Giratina-O, Dialga, Shaymin-S i.e. pretty much all the offensive threats) once SR is up.
 
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Remove Dugtrio off the list
Dugtrio is horrible and when I say horrible, I mean that its worse then Charizard and Shedninja (like Superstar said). It has an extremely small niche that few teams will benefit from and thanks to its horrible attack, Dugtrio doesn't even hit that hard at +6. If I wanted to use a pokemon immune to electric, I would much rather use Excadrill, who has better bulk and similar power to a +6 Dugtrio at +2.
 
To add to the above, Lugia is just too Spikes bait to be any good in this meta. Plus it gets curbstomped by both the S-Tier threats and can't actually wall anything (Ghostceus, Ekiller, Ho-oh in sun, Kyogre, Lati@s, Palkia, Ray, Mewtwo, Zekrom, Kyurem-W, Giratina-O, Dialga, Shaymin-S i.e. pretty much all the offensive threats) once SR is up.
Yes, Lugia is spike bait to a lot of Pokemon, most walls are anyway. But is it really C-rank? Deoxy-D without spike is completely outclass by Lugia. Also, Lugia WALLS Ekiller, Ho-oh, most Lati@s, Garchomp, Palkia, Dialga, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Giratina-o among others.

And I wouldn't use Ho-oh to beat Lugia due to Sacred Fire's low PPs and the risk of burning Lugia (a burned Lugia cannot be poison, the best way to deal with Lugia).

Also, now with Multiscale, although very hard to utilize, can be activated via roost and can allow Lugia to take very powerful hits.

I would say Lugia for mid B at the least.
 

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