Tier Shift Viability Ranking

[Tsumugi Kotokobuki]

How in god's hell is Tangrowth E-Rank while Tangela is A?

Apart from it being complete bullcrap to place Tangrowth in E-Rank I think it's debatable wether Tangela is actually better than Tangrowth because Tangrowth got Leftovers over Eviolite.

Let's look at stats:
Tangrowth: 110/110/135/120/60/60
Tangela: 80/70/130/115/55/75

Tangrowth still got better defenses without Eviolite and dont forget it's high HP Stat. Tangela is also far more crippled by Knock Off and Trick (very common in TS) than Tangrowth is. They both handle the same threats and I dont see many threats that Tangela handles which Tangrowth cant.

And dont forget Tangrowth actually has a (good and overlooked) niche as a Chlorophyll sweeper in TS (115 Atk and 125 SpA!). It already had that niche in regular OU, yet small, but in TS it has improved a lot. This chlorophyll sweeper can take a hit thanks to it's good bulk, even when uninvested and then abuse it's great movepool to be a mixed sweeper with Growth. Tangrowth gets Leaf Storm/Solarbeam, Giga Drain, Power Whip, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb and Hidden Powers. Because of it's bulk it doesnt actually need Sleep Powder like other Chlorophyll sweepers to function. Most Chlorophyll Sweepers have problems with Heatran which Tangrowth doesnt, and the few ones that are able to cover Heatran are most of the time walled by Ferrothorn which is not a problem for Tangrowth, because even if it doesnt run a SE move against Thorn it can take Gyro Balls unlike the other members of the Chloromob.

So even if you think Tangela outclasses Tangrowth as a physically defensive mon, then you might wanna give the chlorophyll sweeper set a try on a good sun team and come back to tell me it's E Rank material.

Give some more credit to the real Mr. Spaghetti-O.

Blissey in E-Rank is a mystery to me as well. Sure there are a lot of new options for a special wall now but Blissey still handles special sweepers very well enough to be put in B or C Rank.

The reason Tangrowth was E was because it was felt at the time that Tangrowth, while not being a bad pokemon, was outclassed in both his Physically Defensive and Chlorophyll roles to the point where there was no real reason to use him on a team. While I still feel that Tangrowth is outclassed if you wanted a straight physical wall due to the far superior physical defense of Tangela after eviolite, I now see just how great Tangrowth is as a sun sweeper. I've never used or been on the receiving end of a Tangrowth (I've been playing Rain Balance for so long) so I guess I never noticed how good it was.

Because of Tangrowth's use as a bulky sun sweeper that can counter many of the Sun teams common weaknesses that still has to rely on receiving sun support which can be difficult in a weather war Tangrowth is now B Rank.

Blissey I agree with as well. She's better fit to handle sun and hail teams on a weatherless team, and can switch in on more threats than Chansey can due to being less weak to Knock Off and Trick. She also has usable special attack that can be used to threaten a few things Chansey can't. Because of this, Blissey is now C Rank.

 

[Mr Omgness]

1) Switch Rotom-W with Rotom-C. Scarf Rotom-C is one of the best Rain counters in tier shift and the stat boosts it got now make it a supreme option over Rotom-W. I just ranked #1 on the ladder with a weatherless team involving Rotom-C to counter Rain and I havent been let down by it. Rotom-W on the other hand; I've played 50ish more games in the past days and I still havent seen it on a team.

2) Alomomola for S-Rank. Best physical wall in the game, WishPassing for dummies, Regenerator. I can go more in depth but anyone who plays this tier frequently will agree how good this thing is.

 

[asterat]

slowking and tangrowth should be higher. Both are amazing and can wall almost every threat in the tier when combined. Throw in some hazards, a spinner, a win condition and some sweeper and your looking pretty good. Slowking in particular is ridiculous I would move both to a.

 

[BlankZero]

slowking and tangrowth should be higher. Both are amazing and can wall almost every threat in the tier when combined. Throw in some hazards, a spinner, a win condition and some sweeper and your looking pretty good. Slowking in particular is ridiculous I would move both to a.

Maybe you mean Slowbro?

 

[Mr Omgness]

Slowking is RU meaning it get +10, while Slowbro is UU and only gets +5, so Slowbro isnt the obvious choice anymore. Since he mentions him with Tangrowth it's probably Slowking he means since Slowking is SpD oriented.

 

[BlankZero]

Slowking is RU meaning it get +10, while Slowbro is UU and only gets +5, so Slowbro isnt the obvious choice anymore. Since he mentions him with Tangrowth it's probably Slowking he means since Slowking is SpD oriented.

I was assuming Regenerator.

 

[Mr Omgness]

I was assuming Regenerator.

Slowking also gets Regenerator ;).

 

[BlankZero]

Slowking also gets Regenerator ;).

I'm having a full day of dumb apparently.

I also gave a mon an Everstone earlier and was getting mad when it wouldn't Evolve.

 

[asterat]

Honestly there is very reason to use slowbro nowadays. Slowking has 105/90/120 bulk while slowbro has 100/115/85. 105/90 is slightly better than gen 4 swampert while 105/120 is excellent and can sponge all sorts of stuff like starmie thunder without much investment. Slowbro has very good defense but so do lots of NUs and such while his special defense is pretty unimpressive. Also slowking has slightly higher special attack.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

Raikou isn't on this list at all, I'd say it was worthy of B rank at least. Sub CM doesn't need much support- I basically only use Politoed to help it for an accurate Thunder and threatening bulky ground types that can take HP Ice. In return it can force out a lot of the tier (Politoed, Skarmory, Swanna to name but a few) for a free sub and starting dealing good damage with Base 120 SpA and Spe. It has a variety of other sets like Specs or the slower one with Aura Sphere for Ttar so you can't be sure what you are dealing with.
I also think Ludicolo is better than C Rank, Sub Seed is very bulky specially and is a real bitch to take down in rain, it is faster than most status inducers with the right spread and it's sub will take Ice Beams and the like. I've also seen a Rain Dance Ludicolo decimate a standard sand team (Magneton trapped Ferro).
Another missing pokemon is Ditto which is a real threat in this meta as it can turn the tables on a Chlorophyll or Sand Rush user after they kill something.

As for pokemon that I think are ranked too highly at a glance, Steelix seems out of place in B rank. It is weak to too many types and will basically only get up Stealth Rock thanks to Sturdy, there are much better options available even with that huge defense stat.
I'm also not sure about Landorus-T in A rank, I never see it and Skarmory is a much better option for dealing with things like Stoutland and Sawsbuck.
Finally I noticed Gothorita in B rank which is high for something I've actually never seen and I don't know what it would do better than Gothitelle.

Anyway nice job on putting this together, it should be a great tool for new players of this tier.

 

[Tsumugi Kotokobuki]

I really wish people would stop using the argument "I haven't seen Pokemon X so it should be in Tier Y rather than Tier Z." This is totally irrelevant to the thought process. A pokemon can be rare in a metagame and still be good, alternatively, a pokemon can be somewhat common, and you just have yet to play against a player using it.

Anyways, onto individual pokemon movements.

Rotom-Wash to B-Tier
The only given argument was "I haven't seen one", so no, Rotom-Wash will stay in A-Tier.

Rotom-C to A-Tier
I actually agree with this. Rotom-C can pull off three separate sets that each function differently, is one of the predominate rain counters in Tier Shift, can threaten any bulky water, has access to the phenomenal trick allowing it to cripple many common switch-ins, and has the ability to easily pick up momentum with Volt Switch.

Alomomola to S-Tier
Eh... Almomola is threatened by most special based attackers in the tier. Despite stellar Cleric options Alomomola only functions on stall and balanced teams, and is a huge momentum burner anywhere else. She also faces competition with many other physical defenders in the tier for a team spot.

Raikou to B-Tier
I don't disagree with this at all.

Ludicolo to C-Tier
As a sub seeder Ludicolo faces competition with Parasect, and the Rain Dance Swim set needs a set-up turn that isn't interrupted by a weather inducer switching in, as well as team support to take down certain pokemon that wall him.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Finally I noticed Gothorita in B rank which is high for something I've actually never seen and I don't know what it would do better than Gothitelle.

Gothorita is better than Gothitelle at breaking defensive walls with a Calm Mind + Rest set due to higher overall defenses with Eviolite. This set is actually quite brutal on the right team, and I've seen many people struggle to beat Gothorita once she has accumulated a sufficient number of Calm Mind boosts.

 

[Yarnus of Bethany]

I've worked a long time with Armaldo, and I think it desrves to go down to C-Rank. It's bad as a spinner because it's weak to stealth rock, iit's too slow to be an attacker or bander, and not powerful enough to fit into a swift swim team.

Cresselia should most definately go up to A-rank: it can wall a very significant portion of the meta and needs very little support to do so. It even can fit very well on sun teams, the most common archetype.

Add Beartic to D-Rank. I know it can be useful, but it's just not very good. Similar to Armaldo but even more so, it's weak to SR and is both not strong enough to break through the common non-grass-type walls and not fast enough to hold its own against an offensive team. When I saw it had swift swim, I hoped it could become good that way, but it disappointed me.

Lastly, Tangrowth and Tangela should be on the same rank. While Tangela has better defense, its absolutely horrible offense stops it from keeping any momentum. Tangrowth can actually do something against an opposing Ferrothorn and can win against alomomolo, unlike Tangela which is dispatched by Ice Beam.

 

[Mr Omgness]

I really wish people would stop using the argument "I haven't seen Pokemon X so it should be in Tier Y rather than Tier Z." This is totally irrelevant to the thought process. A pokemon can be rare in a metagame and still be good, alternatively, a pokemon can be somewhat common, and you just have yet to play against a player using it.

Anyways, onto individual pokemon movements.

Rotom-Wash to B-Tier
The only given argument was "I haven't seen one", so no, Rotom-Wash will stay in A-Tier.

Rotom-C to A-Tier
I actually agree with this. Rotom-C can pull off three separate sets that each function differently, is one of the predominate rain counters in Tier Shift, can threaten any bulky water, has access to the phenomenal trick allowing it to cripple many common switch-ins, and has the ability to easily pick up momentum with Volt Switch.

Alomomola to S-Tier
Eh... Almomola is threatened by most special based attackers in the tier. Despite stellar Cleric options Alomomola only functions on stall and balanced teams, and is a huge momentum burner anywhere else. She also faces competition with many other physical defenders in the tier for a team spot.

Raikou to B-Tier
I don't disagree with this at all.

Ludicolo to C-Tier
As a sub seeder Ludicolo faces competition with Parasect, and the Rain Dance Swim set needs a set-up turn that isn't interrupted by a weather inducer switching in, as well as team support to take down certain pokemon that wall him.

There was no initial argument to put Rotom-W in A rank to begin with anyway, but I guess you got a point.

 

[awsmminer3]

Why on Earth is Cresselia not A rank or S rank? It's BL2, giving it spectacular bulk. I run a Physically Defensive EV spread with Calm Mind, Toxic, Psychic and Moonlight and it's consistently walled everything left after the rampages of my BellyZard. It has needed Drought support to maximize Moonlight's healing, but when Sun is up, I can wall out to 6-0 even with a burn. Unforunately, Toxic cuts about 1/3 off my capabilities.

 

[Mr Omgness]

I've worked a long time with Armaldo, and I think it desrves to go down to C-Rank. It's bad as a spinner because it's weak to stealth rock, iit's too slow to be an attacker or bander, and not powerful enough to fit into a swift swim team.

Cresselia should most definately go up to A-rank: it can wall a very significant portion of the meta and needs very little support to do so. It even can fit very well on sun teams, the most common archetype.

Add Beartic to D-Rank. I know it can be useful, but it's just not very good. Similar to Armaldo but even more so, it's weak to SR and is both not strong enough to break through the common non-grass-type walls and not fast enough to hold its own against an offensive team. When I saw it had swift swim, I hoped it could become good that way, but it disappointed me.

Lastly, Tangrowth and Tangela should be on the same rank. While Tangela has better defense, its absolutely horrible offense stops it from keeping any momentum. Tangrowth can actually do something against an opposing Ferrothorn and can win against alomomolo, unlike Tangela which is dispatched by Ice Beam.

Alomomola doesnt carry Ice Beam (atleast it's standard set doesn't), but Toxic is something Tangela and Tangrowth don't appreciate either so the match-up is a bit farfetched and both players will try to take switch advantage.

I agree about Cresselia, it's a great defensive mon and I was actually shocked that it's BL2 and not BL.

Armaldo sucks donkey balls indeed, it can probably pull of 1 rapid spin in a game and should therefore be used as an offensive spinner. All roles without Rapid Spin are just outclassed by Crustle.

 

[NabboCheTesta]

Actually, a gimmick set of cinccino in sun sweeps the entire s rank

 

[krobbi]

Drifblim has to be at least C or B rank,as a pokèmon with high HP and low defenses he becomes far bulkier even with a a fully offensive EV spread,surviving super effective non-stab attacks.His unburden set with acrobatics+flying gem,substitute,will-o-wisp and destiny bond is a really good counter against clorophill abusers,and offensive teams in general.his only flaw is the fact that he doesn't like to be forced to switch,so he can't be A,but Drifblim is a more than decent pokèmon,and he absolutely does not deserve E rank.

I also claim alomomola for S-rank,'cause he can simply destroy unprepared teams in rain as a boosting tank with calm mind,scald,toxic and rest(with hydratation),he simply cannot be revenge killed if he sets up,and even if taunted-tricked after one or two boosts,his scalds can damage opponent's team and spread burn.

 

[Gerard]

Where's Mandibuzz? Amazing bulk and a good Speed, she can take hits and roost the damage, it shuts down defensive teams thanks to Taunt & Toxic, and STAB Foul Play hits even harder than in OU thanks to the increased stats of all the things that would regularly switch into her, she deserves a rank B at the very least

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

Drifblim has to be at least C or B rank,as a pokèmon with high HP and low defenses he becomes far bulkier even with a fully offensive EV spread,surviving super effective non-stab attacks.His unburden set with acrobatics+flying gem,substitute,will-o-wisp and destiny bond is a really good counter against chlorophyll abusers,and offensive teams in general.his only flaw is the fact that he doesn't like to be forced to switch,so he can't be A, but Drifblim is a more than decent pokèmon,and he absolutely does not deserve E rank....

To add to this, Drifblim can also run good special sets with it's higher base 105 Sp Attack, thanks to it's great and unique abilities, access to Calm Mind, and decent special movepool, consisting of STAB Shadow Ball, Thunder(bolt), Weather Ball, and Hidden Power. Unburden is hands down it's best ability, and makes Drifblim a great late game cleaner, even making it capable of outspeeding most Chlorophyll/Sand Rush sweepers in their weather of choice. Unburden+Gem lets it go on the offensive with little setup, while ChestoRest Calm Mind lets it patch up it's Sp. Defense while boosting it's Sp. Attack and Speed to sky high levels. It does require Rapid Spin and Hazards support to be most effective, but it seems well worth it.
I'd say that Drifblim deserves B rank.

 

[ellipse]

I'm surprised there has been no mention of Regirock. Not only does it become insanely physically bulky, but with sand support and investment it also becomes very specially bulky and can easily boost up to +6 Atk & Def with this sand support on a rest talk set, and hits hard enough to slowly sweep with rock slide at +6 with base 115, even without investment. It can also work as a defensive pivot in sand, providing sr and twave support. Therefore, I think he at least deserves C rank, even with Cradily (whom he can do most things just as well, some better, some worse), and possibly B rank (but I don't think that's likely).

 

[hidood5th]

Can I just say that Regigigas may have actual potential for once? I mean, its got base 125 defensive stats all across the board, meaning even if they're uninvested, Regigigas is going to be tanking MANY more hits than before, so if Regigigas manages to get a free switch on a wall with little attacking options, he'll be able to set up a substitute, possibly wasting the opponent chance to status Gigas, and making his life much easier in the process. Oh, and base 175 attack supported by base 115 speed is downright insane, so once he DOES outlive Slow Start, as long as he has a good amount of HP for surviving priority, the opponents team is already dead. Not much can not get 2HKO'd by one of Regigigas's attacks(Return, Drain Punch and Knock Off), and he will still have substitute for helping avoid burns from bulker poke's that don't get OHKO'd by any of Gigas's attacks.

Gigas certainly isnt A rank, but at least somewhere between B and C rank. He can clean the enemy easily if he get the right time to set up a Sub, but he does need some support in order to make that possible. In terms of good support, Sticky Web does wonders for helping Gigas set up Subs before certain foes, and anything that can deal with Fighting types effectively, like Archeops or Gardevoir, really help Regigigas survive those key Slow Start turns.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Can I just say that Regigigas may have actual potential for once? I mean, its got base 125 defensive stats all across the board, meaning even if they're uninvested, Regigigas is going to be tanking MANY more hits than before, so if Regigigas manages to get a free switch on a wall with little attacking options, he'll be able to set up a substitute, possibly wasting the opponent chance to status Gigas, and making his life much easier in the process. Oh, and base 175 attack supported by base 115 speed is downright insane, so once he DOES outlive Slow Start, as long as he has a good amount of HP for surviving priority, the opponents team is already dead. Not much can not get 2HKO'd by one of Regigigas's attacks(Return, Drain Punch and Knock Off), and he will still have substitute for helping avoid burns from bulker poke's that don't get OHKO'd by any of Gigas's attacks.

Gigas certainly isnt A rank, but at least somewhere between B and C rank. He can clean the enemy easily if he get the right time to set up a Sub, but he does need some support in order to make that possible. In terms of good support, Sticky Web does wonders for helping Gigas set up Subs before certain foes, and anything that can deal with Fighting types effectively, like Archeops or Gardevoir, really help Regigigas survive those key Slow Start turns.

I'm sorry, but you're actually posting in the old thread that was used back in gen 5! Please use the new Viability Rankings thread by clicking the link as follows: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tier-shift-viability-ranking-v2.3536719/