Keldeo, evaluating a potential suspect test.

[G-Von]

Once again no. Do you guys live in a vacuum with no consideration for practical resources like time, administrative overhead, etc.?

Plenty of things can be in the discussion to be suspected. All of these include Drizzle, Drought, Kyurem-B, Stealth Rock, Scald, U-turn, Keldeo, and Terrakion...so just because we've discussed them as potential suspects we should auto suspect them?

Also, I have no idea how to seriously respond to "whats the harm in suspecting anything." If you can't use your brain to figure that out, that's on you.

Where do you guys come up with this nonsense.

Time is something we all have problems dealing with. Idk what pertains within admin overhead so i can't comment on that.

On the topic of discussion, well...this is titled the "Keldeo, evaluating a potential suspect test." thread, so I would assume we would stay on track and discuss Keldeo and not whether other things are broken. I would naturally assume something like that would occur in a general to-be suspect thread.

And thanks for taking my words out of context and making it seem like I believe that anything in general should be suspected when one person cries broken. I just feel like suspect tests help us progress in seeing how the meta is doing and how it would be doing if the suspect(s) at hand were banned. I don't see a negative backlash for doing a suspect test for something that's garnered up enough discussion to have a thread like this to be approved to exist.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Well, in fact I understand well they were OU, thank you being so nice, and I also understand they (Darkrai, Skymin, Swift Swimmers...) were absolutely broken without them balancing each other. You say you would have wait 2/3 months in order to have the metagame settled and revolving around them, before thinking banning this one or these one ? If not, don't say it's the same thing like Torn-T, because they weren't treated in the same way.
They were OU at start because it was deemed they could be not broken and it was worth testing (and something like Mew ended even UU), which doesn't mean than that they cannot be obviously broken, and so bias involved in their fast-banning, while existing, is less important.

There is no such thing as a Pokemon that is inherently "broken". Pokemon aren't "broken" or "not broken" based on their individual strengths-- brokenness is only a function of relative strength (or uncompetitiveness) relative to the rest of the metagame. If Pokemon "balance each other" properly, than obviously none of them are broken.

I can summarize your logic by "tiering is subjective so we should do 'nothing' to lessen the subjective part". Do you disagree with this summary ? Do you really find such logic lead to a good tiering system ?

Judgement is the basis of tiering. That's unavoidable. You are the one who has somehow convinced himself of something ridiculous.

Tiering is not science, so talking of "bias" or treating it like science is fundamentally flawed-- from a scientific stand point.

 

[Tassa]

If Pokemon "balance each other" properly, than obviously none of them are broken.

It's why I precised that, in OU BW start, it wasn't the case (about balance). Do you disagree ? Did Skymin balance swift swim or something like that ? After you can say "it's subjective", but subjectively, do you think something like that ?

Tiering is not science, so talking of "bias" or treating it like science is fundamentally flawed-- from a scientific stand point.

Just, how can you say that ?
To summarize your logic :
1)Tiering is subjective
2)""Bias" has no importance in subjective things"
3)So Bias would be without importance in tiering

But god, if the logic between 1, 2 & 3 is correct, how can you say that 2 is true ? Without even an argument for that. Bias is a pernicious thing which tend to let you make choices you think free but are under influence of your previous opinion, wording of a question, the presentation of things (for example, 2 suspects at the same time) etc. It influences your psychology, and in fact, if tiering would be objective, we would have something solid to which refer. Since it's subjective, it's impossible to realize bias influence and being unaware do not especially help.
Bias cannot be avoided (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias which occurs at each suspect), but it's possible to not create more for nothing.

(My previous message was deleted, it was off-Keldeo-topic I can understand, but since I see Chou's answer still here, I answer him.)

 

[Chou Toshio]

No, that's not my argument. You are simply completely thinking of the wrong thing.

Bias (statistics) (From fat wikipedia):

A statistic is biased if it is calculated in such a way that is systematically different from the population parameter of interest. The following lists some types of, or aspects of, bias which should not be considered mutually exclusive:

• Selection bias, where individuals or groups are more likely to take part in a research project than others, resulting in biased samples. This can also be termed Berksonian bias.[1]
  • Spectrum bias arises from evaluating diagnostic tests on biased patient samples, leading to an overestimate of the sensitivity and specificity of the test.
• The bias of an estimator is the difference between an estimator's expectations and the true value of the parameter being estimated.
  • Omitted-variable bias is the bias that appears in estimates of parameters in a regression analysis when the assumed specification is incorrect, in that it omits an independent variable that should be in the model.
• In statistical hypothesis testing, a test is said to be unbiased when the probability of rejecting the null hypothesis is less than or equal to the significance level when the null hypothesis is true, and the probability of rejecting the null hypothesis is greater than or equal to the significance level when the alternative hypothesis is true,
• Detection bias is where a phenomenon is more likely to be observed and/or reported for a particular set of study subjects. For instance, the syndemic involving obesity and diabetes may mean doctors are more likely to look for diabetes in obese patients than in less overweight patients, leading to an inflation in diabetes among obese patients because of skewed detection efforts.
• Funding bias may lead to selection of outcomes, test samples, or test procedures that favor a study's financial sponsor.
• Reporting bias involves a skew in the availability of data, such that observations of a certain kind may be more likely to be reported and consequently used in research.
• Data-snooping bias comes from the misuse of data mining techniques.
• Analytical bias arise due to the way that the results are evaluated.
• Exclusion bias arise due to the systematic exclusion of certain individuals from the study.

These are all the ways a statistic can be biased. Here's the thing: we're not collecting any statistics in tiering.


Which is why I said, bias (as used in science and statistics) has nothing to do with tiering. We're not measuring something objective. We're not even selecting voters to represent the population's opinions. We're asking voters to make judgement-based decisions as a group on policies based on their individual opinions about the current metagame. We cannot even force them to abstain their own personal feelings/opinions from their decision-- in fact, most of the time, those feelings/opinions are part of what is used to aim for an "ideal" metagame.

That is why none of the concepts of "bias", from a statistics or scientific standpoint, is applicable to the tiering process.



But we are getting completely off topic. The point is this:

1) Policy Decisions are not made on measured data, but on the decisions of policy leaders-- who during tests, ask voters to come to decisions based on parameters they have outlined.

2) Policy leaders-- who remember, have responsibility for policy decisions-- were completely within their rights and responsibilities to test Torn-T and Keldeo together (or any suspects simultaneously) because fellow suspects are also metagame conditions.

3) Policy leaders (and voters)-- have full right to determine when or if something needs a test. Just like they decided to set up this thread to help them determine whether they test now, they (along with voter sentiment at the time) were fully within their rights to decide NOT to re-test Keldeo immediately after Torn-T was banned.

And that's the bottom line. Tiering is a policy decision in the hands of policy makers based on judgement. Their judgement then and now is perfectly sound.

 

[BLARG weather BLARG]

While I despise everyone's favorite water pony, it's not broken. Does it deserve its own suspect test? Sure. Pokemon like Blissey are still going to suck due to the prevalence of fighting attacks and powerful physical attackers, so I wouldn't say that Keldeo is that bad in making many pokemon competitively unviable. The metagame is so entrenched in handling rain/keldeo that I feel taking it away would seriously hurt Rain teams and upset the metagame.

Honestly, Keldeo can easily be played around unlike Landorus. Every team is forced to pack an answer to the scarf set, and because Rain is so dominant, most teams carry multiple checks and counters anyway. In a normal metagame, Keldeo would be banned in a heartbeat along with Terrakion, Kyurem-B, and many other pokemon, but this is BW2 OU so it stays. I feel that it severely restricts teambuilding, but in exchange, many obscure mons or different pokemon that handle it well are used increasingly often. It has very solid bulk, incredible resistance to priority moves, the most broken fighting type move in the game, incredible speed, and a solid typing. What downsides does Keldeo really have? On a rain team it might contribute further to your electric weakness with politoed and tentacruel/starmie/tornadus/jellicent and it is weak to toxic spikes, but that's about it.

Sure, specs Keldeo can 2HKO or OHKO the entire metagame, but so can CB Terrakion and many other specs/CB users. This isn't a reason to ban a pokemon. I find Keldeo to be much more dangerous when it can switch its moves around, as the choice sets can be easily played around. Scarf Keldeo under rain is pretty broken if it gets passed an NP from Celebi though. Everybody and their mother frequently claim that HP Bug Keldeo is destroying Celebi, but it's just around 10% of Keldeo that use it. Usually the best option is HP Electric to hit Gyarados, an increasingly anti-meta pokemon right now.

|
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves |
| Secret Sword 95.047% |
| Hydro Pump 67.633% |
| Surf 59.951% |
| Hidden Power Ice 40.924% |
| Icy Wind 35.554% |
| Calm Mind 22.315% |
| Hidden Power Electric 18.776% |
| Hidden Power Bug 10.737% |
| Hidden Power Ghost 9.696% |
| Substitute 6.897% |
| Scald 5.396% |
| Hidden Power Grass 3.979% |
| Focus Blast 3.299%

 

[Honus]

While I despise everyone's favorite water pony, it's not broken. Does it deserve its own suspect test? Sure. Pokemon like Blissey are still going to suck due to the prevalence of fighting attacks and powerful physical attackers, so I wouldn't say that Keldeo is that bad in making many pokemon competitively unviable. The metagame is so entrenched in handling rain/keldeo that I feel taking it away would seriously hurt Rain teams and upset the metagame.

Honestly, Keldeo can easily be played around unlike Landorus. Every team is forced to pack an answer to the scarf set, and because Rain is so dominant, most teams carry multiple checks and counters anyway. In a normal metagame, Keldeo would be banned in a heartbeat along with Terrakion, Kyurem-B, and many other pokemon, but this is BW2 OU so it stays. I feel that it severely restricts teambuilding, but in exchange, many obscure mons or different pokemon that handle it well are used increasingly often. It has very solid bulk, incredible resistance to priority moves, the most broken fighting type move in the game, incredible speed, and a solid typing. What downsides does Keldeo really have? On a rain team it might contribute further to your electric weakness with politoed and tentacruel/starmie/tornadus/jellicent and it is weak to toxic spikes, but that's about it.

Sure, specs Keldeo can 2HKO or OHKO the entire metagame, but so can CB Terrakion and many other specs/CB users. This isn't a reason to ban a pokemon. I find Keldeo to be much more dangerous when it can switch its moves around, as the choice sets can be easily played around. Scarf Keldeo under rain is pretty broken if it gets passed an NP from Celebi though. Everybody and their mother frequently claim that HP Bug Keldeo is destroying Celebi, but it's just around 10% of Keldeo that use it. Usually the best option is HP Electric to hit Gyarados, an increasingly anti-meta pokemon right now.

A few points, the first is that the fact that the meta is a shitstorm right now [or at least perceived to be] isn't an argument for Keldeo to stay OU, just because things are hectic and Keldeo is amongst other powerful and possibly broken Pokemon, that doesn't mean that Keldeo itself isn't broken. If Keldeo itself is broken, then it's broken, despite the metagame being "normal" or not. Also "further contribute to an electric weakness", most well built rain teams will have at least 2 pokemon that will be able to takee an electric move [same for most of the other types], plus electric isn't even that common an attacking type that you would have to worry about in the same context that you would Fighting or Dragon. So yeah I agree with doesn't have downsides but the electric weakness one is pretty irrelevant. Also CB Terrakion isn't nearly as powerful as Specs Keldeo, I mean the drizzle boost is pretty huge, you have Scarf Keldeo OHKOing shit like Magnezone and Garchomp with Hydro Pump in rain [timid btw], whereas Specs is just ridiculous, doing 60% to 220 HP Celebi and shit, CB Terrakion doesn't get a drizzle boost, it's fair to compare them outside of rain, but under the rain where Keldeo is most common and effective, its an unfair comparison.

Keldeo *-*

 

[doughboy]

Typing this on a phone so bear with me if the formating or spelling is incorrect. Also after typing the power point (hehe) I kinda got tired with typing stuff for the other ones.

___________________________________


My problem with Keldeo getting “suspected” is that it does not have the "complete package" like Genesect or Landorus. Depending on the team Keldeo is on (I.e. rain or sand) and particularly the item Keldeo holds, Keldeo will lack certain attributes that enable to beat certain checks, counters, and teams. Namely these attributes are power, speed, the ability to lure in and defeat specific counters, coverage, and survivability. I'll go through the reasoning of each attribute one by one.

1. Power

I can't deny that Keldeo's rain boosted Hydro Pump is one of the most powerful attacks in OU. Keldeo's claim to fame for power, however, ends there. One aspect about Keldeo's power that is different from suspects of the past is that two conditions must be meant for its power to be levels beyond the rest of OU. The first is that rain must be up on the field. The second is that it must be holding Choice Specs. The consequences of these conditions is that the "extremely high" level of power that Keldeo has can be removed from the game with an opposing weather. Yeah I know Tyranitar, hippo, ninetales don't switch in on Keldeo (no shit). But what this means is that with smart play with your own weather starter, you can remove Keldeo's power from the game by bringing in your weather starter on other Pokemon during the match AND you put much more pressure on the opponent's Politoed. If the opponent does not bring in Politoed enough, then Keldeo's power will be stifled during the match. If the Politoed user brings in Politoed more aggressivly, thus maintaining a more constant level of power for Keldeo, they run the risk of losing Politoed faster and losing the weather war.

It is important to note that a point a lot of people overlook is that ONLY Keldeo's water-STAB is boosted by the rain. Unlike suspects of the past, Keldeo's power can not be applied to the majority of its moveset and it can be removed from the game with opposing weather. Let's take Genesect and Landorus-I for example (Lando-I is more relevant). With Genesect, nothing could be done to stop the download boosts it got. You could only selectively shift (shift not stop) its power boost with careful placement of EV's on certain Pokemon with equal defensive stats (aka not a lot). Even then, Genesect could utilize either boost on its ENTIRE moveset (U-turn or special coverage), not just one STAB. In the case of Landorus-I, Sheer Force netted you a boost that could be used constantly throughout the match which can not be removed by an opponent (unless you use lol skill swap). In addition, that boost in power could be applied to its STAB and (some) coverage moves. Oh yeah, this is without being choice-locked either.

Keldeo's enhanced power: must be choice-locked, must maintain a certain weather condition, only applies to one STAB, and must give up certain types of support when running rain (more on this latter).

Without rain Keldeo's power is much tamer than other choiced and life orb users in OU (Latios, dnite, Terrakion, KUBE). It also is tamer than suspects of the past.

2. Speed (scarf set rant)

At base 108 speed, Keldeo sits at one of the top speed tiers in OU. Enhanced by Scarf, pretty much nothing can outspeed it.

First I just want to talk about its speed outside of the Scarf set. Keldeo's nice speed (outside of the scarf set) would of pushed it over the edge for me if it were not that almost every Pokemon above that speed tier commonly found in OU has a super effective STAB against it. Because of this, non-choice scarf Keldeo has a number of options to go for the revenge kill. Latios, Latias, Starmie, Alakazam, Tornadus, and Gengar are all 100% viable options in OU that can hit Keldeo hard and outspeed it at the same time (Jolteon and Espeon can but they are meh).

Now the Scarf set, barely anything can outspeed it, but without rain it really lacks in power vs defensive cores. Without rain, even specially defensive Jirachi can comfortably wall it. But that is not focusing on Scarf Keldeo's main niche: being a strong win condition vs offensive teams. Unless you lack a strong water resist and it is raining, many Pokemon can tank at least on hit from Scarf Keldeo and attempt to KO back. In addition, Scarf Keldeo can be made into a huge piece of set up bait if you force it to use its hidden power.

3. Luring (expert belt and pursuit)

Keldeo makes for an excellent lure for Celebi with Expert Belt. It can also lure in several counters to be trapped by Pursuit with ttar. However if Keldeo elects to use either of these options it misses out on both the power to break through defensive cores and speed to go through offensive teams. Without rain, expert belt Keldeo can't reliably break through sp. def jirachi. Keldeo ran with ttar really miss the power that is given by rain and is more susceptible to Pokemon tanking a hit and KO'ing back.

4. Coverage

Keldeo is the definition of "pick and choose your counters" poke since it relies and hidden power so much. Unfortunately for Keldeo and fortunately for us, Keldeo does not have one hidden power that can cover every single one of its counters. The one that can affect the widest amount of Pokemon is HP Ghost, but then you run into the problem of your strongest attack against certain Pokemon being a base 70 hidden power.

Compared to Landorus-I who could use similar luring moves which had coverage that was above 70 base power, could be boosted by sheer force (sludge wave/psychic), could gain momentum (u-turn), and actually leave no stone unturned when it came to counters (Keldeo's ebelt can't break jello or amoong), Keldeo is just sad.

5. Survivability

I think this is the second most important point to consider about Keldeo when considering it is not “suspect worthy”. Keldeo main traits for survivability are that it resists most priority and it is resistant to Stealth Rock. If you compare Keldeo to its recently “suspected” partner in crime Landorus-I, its survivability isn't optimal. The most important trait is that Keldeo is not immune to Spikes and it is not immune to sandstorm damage (every turn in sand is another SR switchin). Keldeo does not possess any immunities to gain any free switches on. Keldeo is affected by Thunder Wave and hates any forms of status that can come from bulky waters that can tank a hit from it. Lastly, Keldeo is weak to Volt Switch which means that it can a momentum loser when checked by Rotom-w and scarf Thundurus-T. (Keldeo is affected by life orb recoil unlike Lando-I but it doesn't really run it soo...)

The point is Keldeo can take a large amount of residual damage over the match (offense has spikes, sand has well sand, stall has status), which means it can be picked off by priority after enough time.
_______________________________________

tl;dr high power, very high speed, luring in counters. You can only pick two of the three when running Keldeo because certain conditions like your item or your weather will prevent it from having one. It cannot have the "complete package" of having all three like suspects of the past.

edit: all mentions of "banned" and "broken" have been replaced with "suspected" and "suspect worthy" respectively. Astonishingly, the point is still the same!

 

[ginganinja]

I just want to make a point that hasn't been stressed enough.

Certain people think Keldeo isn't broken, and that is 100% fine, however, this purpose of this thread, is to see whether or not its SUSPECT worthy. Please note that just because something is suspect worthy doesn't always equate to it being broken. I am just seeing posts saying "Keldeo isn't broken" which is nice and all, but doesn't answer the question in the OP which is is it worthy of suspect testing. If you could make an effort to make claims such as "Keldeo isn't suspect worthy due to x, y, and z" then that would be great. If you think it is suspect worthy but not broken, then wait till a Keldeo official suspect thread has been created before making tl;dr posts pushing for it not being broken or w/e.

Like I don't want to call anyone out but

My problem with Keldeo getting banned is that it does not have the "complete package" like Genesect or Landorus.

How the fuck is this relevant when Keldeo isn't even an official suspect yet, something we are trying to find out. You jump to assuming Keldeo is a) an official suspect and b) thus automatically broken and its important to realise that currently that is incorrect. Again, my apologies for calling you out, but can we stay on topic (Its hard ik) and see arguments about if its suspect worthy which is what this thread seeks to discuss.

Personally Pocket and I both believe Keldeo is suspect worthy, but are still 50/50 as to whether its broken or not, an important distinction since apparently some people believe people pushing for a suspect test automatically means they believe its broken.

So yea, can we just try and focus more as to whether its suspect worthy or not, and if we have a solid consensus we can move on from there.

 

[Shurtugal]

I think the majority of the players on here can agree that Keldeo deserves a suspect, if only because Keldeo is one of OU's biggest threats.

(If they didn't agree to this it would arguably make them sound stupid since Keldeo is a HUGE threat no matter how you look at it and there is very little you could argue to say it doesn't need a suspect, which leads me to my next point...)

I mean, the only argument I (or anyone) could give you as a reason NOT to suspect Keldeo would be to list things that make Keldeo not broken, which is why it confuses me that you quoted that user. Yes, this discussion is whether or not Keldeo should be suspected, but the only viable argument one could give you on why it doesn't deserve a suspect would be to argue that Keldeo isn't broken.

Perhaps the user could have stated this in their OP, but I digress. What other argument could a user give you that would convince you NOT to suspect Keldeo?

I'm pretty sure the users who keep saying Keldeo isn't broken are trying to give you evidence that Keldeo doesn't deserve a suspect; or they are trying to combat arguments that say Keldeo IS broken: it works both ways. The biggest argument one could give you to support a suspect would be to prove it's broken, right? Technically, according to what you are saying, users shouldn't be trying to say Keldeo IS broken either.

So IMO, I feel the discussion is flowing the way it is supposed to be. (Just replace "I feel it is /not/ broken" with "I feel it is /not/ worthy of suspect")

 

[doughboy]

Ginga, how the hell is this entire thread relevant at all if we come to the conclusion that Keldeo is not broken but yet deserves a suspect? Why put an innocent man on the execution stand?

I mean, the only argument I (or anyone) could give you as a reason NOT to suspect Keldeo would be to list things that make Keldeo not broken, which is why it confuses me that you quoted that user.

edit: For people who won't get what I am saying. If you feel ultimately that Keldeo is not broken and does not deserve a ban, why are you advocating putting it on the chopping block for a ban as a "suspect worthy" pokemon?

edit for below: keldeo = innocent man, not me

(Just replace "I feel it is /not/ broken" with "I feel it is /not/ worthy of suspect")

All the points in my posts are relevant and are nearly the same. It literally is an argument about technicality and terminology about a step in a process...

 

[ginganinja]

You appear to be mistaken about the purpose of this thread.

This threads goal is to discern whether Keldeo is worthy of a suspect test. That is it, pure and simple. I will assume you ignored aldarons posts on the previous page, where he says the following...

Wrong. All this thread is is determining whether or not it is worth suspecting Keldeo. A Keldeo suspect thread would be talking about whether or not it is broken. This thread is leading to whether or not we should even have that discussion. There is a very importance difference between this thread and a suspect thread lol...in the suspect thread, the Pokemon is actually a suspect.

This is what the thread should be discussing, and I am attempting to keep this discussion on track. I am not "putting you on the execution stand" - if you look silly for not bothering to read posts from both aldaron and myself then thats your fault.

To make things clear, you can make claims why you think Keldeo is not suspect worthy, thats fine, the issue I had with your post, was that you assumed Keldeo was getting banned which is not true at this stage.

If everyone believes that Keldeo is suspect worthy, then we can simply progress to a Keldeo Official Suspect thread (for the test). If you think Keldeo is suspect worthy but not broken, then you can make such posts in the Suspect Test thread.

 

[psVoltage]

Keldeo isnt nessisarily broken, as much as being a really good pokemon all around. It can run a variety of sets all around, from being a lategame cleaner to being an absolutely amazing wallbreaker. While it does rely on rain to wallbreak too the extent people have already explained, all of its other sets don't really need rain to be effective. In fact people use keldeo on sand teams because 1) Tyranitar rids it of some counters, and 2) If you loose the weather war to a rain team you still have a win condition with its rain boosted hydro pumps/ surfs.
Still I think it does need a suspect test, while its not unstopable broken its still very very powerful on all sorts of teams, and it can even counter its own counters depending on what hidden power you choose. Thats what I think of keldeo, Suspect test worthy

 

[Chou Toshio]

Ginga, I get what you're saying, but I think you could give him the benefit of the doubt and not assume he's too brain dead to get the distinction. I think it's clear enough that he's arguing that he doesn't think Keldeo worthy of a test.

He's asking you to make this intuitive leap:

"I think Keldeo is not broken at all" => Keldeo would only be banned if it's broken (which it isn't at all) => Keldeo would not be banned at all => if Keldeo has no chance of being ban worthy, there's no point to testing it => My opinion is there's no point in testing it at all


I think this isn't such an intuitive leap that you should assume he's fundamentally off basis just for not spelling it out.

Just give him the benefit of the doubt man

 

[yee]

I think we've basically agreed on everything we're going to agree on by now, and that we mostly agree Keldeo deserves a test whether or not it's broken.

XY is coming up, and I know personally (and through all those public statements) that the council doesn't want to stir the weather pot, and obviously SR / Scald / U-Turn aren't actually near enough a test to be tested in BW. I think sleep is broken, but neither that or Breloom is cared about as I found out in the BW2 PR thread. Only individual pokemon are going to be given serious thought at this point, and nothing besides Kyu-B or Keldeo is significantly more powerful than everything else.

There have been so many changes to public view of suspect testing that we don't even know what Doug's characteristics of a desirable metagame even are at this point. The only thing I've seen that hasn't changed is that when something is significantly more powerful than everything else and everyone is abusing it, the pokemon in question acquires a nonzero chance of being banned. Kyu-B isn't being abused, and honestly probably won't be even if Keldeo is banned because of the learning curve to using it.

That's how I think suspect testing really should work, because we should be focusing on the game unless something is "well duh it's broken", and everyone at least down to the average level of experience and skill would be able to at least see why it's ok to see it go.

There really isn't anything that will have a chance to get the axe before BW2 before Keldeo, so why not?

Is it going to get banned prematurely / without enough evidence? No! We've never been sold on a 50% ban rate to actually achieve a ban, and when you look at just Landorus retest and Keldeo as remaining potential suspects it's clear we have the time to review an unconvincing ban.

Is Keldeo just not questionable as Uber? Well, it OHKOes Gyarados after SR with Hydro Pump sometimes, it OHKOes -SpD Mence, it beats it's counters, it's low-risk high-reward and has that great water typing etc. Calm Mind is probably an even better wallbreaker than Kyu-B given that you don't counter it, Specs is another low-risk high-reward similar situation. We all know how low-risk EBelt is, and Scarf is the same situation with a spot of being an even better thing than Scarf Garchomp, which probably isn't legal.

We're not testing anything else, Keldeo is very questionable, and we're not going to be giving it insufficient justice with a "quick" ban. Go for it!

 

[Nathaniel Br]

The reason we didn't see a suspect test for this earlier is mostly that during the early OU days of course, Deoxys and Genesect had the limelight. I've found most of what I've read quite interesting, I don't think I have much to add, but I agree Keldeo probably deserves a test.

 

[G-Von]

The reason we didn't see a suspect test for this earlier is mostly that during the early OU days of course, Deoxys and Genesect had the limelight. I've found most of what I've read quite interesting, I don't think I have much to add, but I agree Keldeo probably deserves a test.

Couple things: 1. Genesect wasn't even available to be used until BW2 came out and the same goes for Keldeo and, 2. Keldeo was also already suspected along with Tornadus-T but was presumed not broken by the battlers who gained voting reqs.

 

[Matthew]

I guess I'll post here.

The main point I'd like to bring up is when people use damage calculations to "prove this thing is too strong!!" it doesn't actually prove anything. Listing out pretty numbers and going, "looks like Latias can only switch in once," great. Uh, how did you prove it was broken to me again?

I get that you guys are passionate about these things, but you need to actually form an argument.

I'm not in one group or the other, which means I should probably vote, "suspect," so I can get a more clear example about Keldeo.

furthermore the burden of proof is supposed to be on you guys, however since you're the ones who want it suspected (thus want it banned) it will be banned. That's not how the process should legitimately work. But that's a conversation for another time.

Okay, fuck, I just caught up on all of this thread finally. Jesus.

First off using theory to determine whether or not something is broken is fucking stupid. I read a comment where someone was playing a battle in words on the page. Keldeo's counters let your Thundurus come in and set up causing a victory? Sounds like Thundurus was the culprit in your victory, not Keldeo. That's like saying, "my Venusaur forced in a Heatran which let me bring in my sash Dugtrio for a sweep. Fucking Venusaur!" That argument is entirely flawed and anyone who suggests that it a reason to test (thus ban) Keldeo is completely ludicrous.

Using your pokemon's counters to bring in another pokemon for a sweep is pokemon, there's no other way to put it. Outplaying your opponent. Sure, Keldeo has no solid counter. Neither does Terrakion but that doesn't mean it's not unmanageable.

"But Genny," you say to me, "Scizor hard counters Terrakion, Bullet Punch!" Does it mean it can come in on Terrakion safely? No, standard CB Scizor is 2HKOed by CC under common field conditions (meaning SR). But I'll be damned if I don't fear a Terrakion because I have a Scizor on my team. Forcing a pokemon out is winning that round. Much like forcing your opponent to use Explosion is winning the round. If your opponent has nothing else to do against your counter except to explode then your counter has done its job magically. It got rid of the pokemon, afterall.

Keldeo is a top-tier threat, I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that. I've know about Keldeo's strength for a long time (Dream World meta represent!) but I've known it's manageable.

I think instead of complaining about traits of the game which we find undesirable (Stealth Rock, Sleep, I think I saw Scald somewhere too?) we should have to ask ourselves one simple question:

Is this thing too strong that it cannot be handled reasonably?

By reasonably I'm saying DPP Garchomp. You either sacrifice a pokemon to bring in your check or you lose. The metagame was literally, and yes I mean literally, teams consisted of this: Tyranitar, Garchomp, Garchomp counter/check 1, Garchomp counter/check2, Counter's counter, SR setter (if that wasn't ttar, then it was something else).

This post has become a lot more about arguments and centralization than I would have originally liked it to be. However I guess I'm somewhat appalled by the logic in which you guys are using to test (thus ban) Keldeo. I get it, you don't like it, doesn't mean that it's fucking broken.

In that same regard I can admit the same, I don't mind it but that doesn't mean it isn't broken. However it isn't up to me to determine if it is. You, meaning the people who want to test (thus ban) it, to show us that it is too strong.

IPL did this in DP with Wobbufett. If it's on the same par (which is a standard I somewhat hold) then it shouldn't be too difficult for you to do it.

EDIT:

I didn't mean for this to turn into a Tangerine-esque post but it is. I'm also taking out all the edits for flow.

 

[MikeDawg]

I don't think it's fair to point out a single Uber's meta and then claim that as the norm (clearly such a centralization wasn't the case for deo-d, landorus, etc.). There are undoubtably varying degrees and qualities of brokenness.

On another note, power (combined with speed, coverage, typing, rain, etc.) is why I believe keldeo is harming the meta. If your special wall is not immune to water, it has the potential to be 2hkod. Not only is jirachi not able to function as a blanket wall any longer, but even rotom, celebi, and co. struggle as well on the switch in. Because of this, you must almost always check it offensively (meaning you either need some great double switches or you need to sack something). And while double switching should be encouraged, it is 1-sided, meaning all the pressure (and little reward) is given to the opponent. Even against offensive teams it can clean house with scarf like nobody's business.

Yes, keldeo can be stopped, but nearly every pokemon has its share of checks. It's keldeos extraordinary ability to get past those checks (whether by hpump for slow ones or pursuit/etc support for fast ones) that differentiates it

 

[Matthew]

I don't think it's fair to point out a single Uber's meta and then claim that as the norm (clearly such a centralization wasn't the case for deo-d, landorus, etc.). There are undoubtably varying degrees and qualities of brokenness.

As the rest of your post is fine I'm mostly going to talk about this:

I think you could say that the Deo-D meta was centralized to a point where you could make a somewhat accurate comparison to Garchomp. While the team builds were different I think Deo-D (much like Deo-S) made other pokemon useless. There's no point in running a Forretress (aside from spin, yeah I know) if this pokemon can easily get down all layers of hazards.

Then we get to Landorus-I, which I think is an issue because, as I brought up in my previous post, it's those people, "the cool kids," who want it tested. Because they want it tested so they can ban it they're decision is already made up. Giving a pokemon suspect status is basically banning it. While this mentality isn't as bad as it was in DPP, it is still prevalent and it is still something that should be worked out.

 

[Curtains]

i'm fuckin crying right now because of gen's post... Very good post. It all comes down to the massive amount of subjectivity in the suspect process. calculations and babbling theorymon are simply not enough to explain why in standard battle conditions between reasonable players a pokemon is broken. It is time to move past using tyranitar as a reason for a pokemon's brokenness. Stop it. Additionally, it is okay to have something be good in the metagame. Something is always going to stand up and be stronger than everything else... Instead of using theorymon and random calcs why don't people actually show some logs of keldeo dominating a game from move 1-XX. Genesect dominated the game all game it came in when ever it wanted to because: it had good typing and defenses, it could u-turn out of anything, it's attack power went up just by switching in, it had multiple boosting moves and could hit extremely hard from either physical or special. I am not convinced that keldeo is genesect yet.

Then we get to Landorus-I, which I think is an issue because, as I brought up in my previous post, it's those people, "the cool kids," who want it tested. Because they want it tested so they can ban it they're decision is already made up. Giving a pokemon suspect status is basically banning it. While this mentality isn't as bad as it was in DPP, it is still prevalent and it is still something that should be worked out.

well I think that is mainly because the "suspect test" is just playing the ladder to get reqs and not actually "testing" it. Like chou toshio said what is the scientific method of this "test" that doesn't make it purely subjective? The test is basically renscarface or lava spawn or other supposed good players making post in the suspect thread and everyone agreeing blindly and posters like me getting blacklisted for arguing those post even though they have flaws.

 

[reyscarface]

lol you say "dont bring up theorymon to argue somethings broken!!!!" when the keldeo ban proponents (at least the smart ones) are using in-game scenarios that happen every single game from our own battle experiences in top tier level play, while geniuses like you think its legit to run teams of 4 keldeo counters. no.

i love how you instantly jump to say that we are deciding to ban it just because we dont like it. i love keldeo, its easy wins because its strong as shit.

oh and by the way, landorus got banned mainly because of his ability to set up sweeps, so it does matter if keldeo can create sweeps for others by creating holes, you just sound like a moron completely disregarding that. do you even play? your post denotes a clear lack of understanding on how this game is played.

im pretty sure the people in this thread have already made a great case of suspect testing it, and no, wanting to test it doesnt mean that people want it banned, so another big flaw in your argument. (ive seen a fair amount of people in this thread say theyre not sure about ban but definitely sure about a test). problem here is, we are tired of sounding like broken records because weve pretty much pointed out how overcentralizing keldeo is and how little there is to do against him.

and no teams in dpp werent that either.

i can tell you dont play this metagame by your post, really, bringing up shit like explosion.

 

[Matthew]

lol you say "dont bring up theorymon to argue somethings broken!!!!" when the keldeo ban proponents (at least the smart ones) are using in-game scenarios that happen every single game from our own battle experiences in top tier level play, while geniuses like you think its legit to run teams of 4 keldeo counters. no.

i love how you instantly jump to say that we are deciding to ban it just because we dont like it. i love keldeo, its easy wins because its strong as shit.

oh and by the way, landorus got banned mainly because of his ability to set up sweeps, so it does matter if keldeo can create sweeps for others by creating holes, you just sound like a moron completely disregarding that. do you even play? your post denotes a clear lack of understanding on how this game is played.

im pretty sure the people in this thread have already made a great case of suspect testing it, and no, wanting to test it doesnt mean that people want it banned, so another big flaw in your argument. (ive seen a fair amount of people in this thread say theyre not sure about ban but definitely sure about a test). problem here is, we are tired of sounding like broken records because weve pretty much pointed out how overcentralizing keldeo is and how little there is to do against him.

and no teams in dpp werent that either.

i can tell you dont play this metagame by your post, really, bringing up shit like explosion.

edit: you know theres something fundamentally wrong in your post when curtains agrees with it so much he cries. smfh

I clearly meant DP. And it was Deo-S lead, I remember now it. As for everything else you're nit-picking on examples and points I'm using to further my argument. I'm explaining how forcing a pokemon out is like how we used to say forcing a pokemon to explode is winning. Using this comparison I made my argument much more clear.

You can keep saying, "ur (BAN ME PLEASE)" to me all you want but that doesn't mean you're right, smart, or should carry the chip that you do on your shoulder. Argue to me that this pokemon is too strong and we can have a conversation about it.

If you want to talk civilly we can, but if you're going to be throwing word vomit at a screen because you don't like me then stop cluttering threads.

 

[reyscarface]

go read the thread ive already made my case, as have plenty of respected players and people with brains. all youre doing is twisting words in order to make an "argument" which is a load of crap and tells me you dont even play this game, therefore your opinion isnt valid, ESPECIALLY after you say "no theorymon pls".

done posting in this thread, keldeo will be suspect tested and banned in the end anyways, wouldnt have responded to your shitty post but since you called a person who actually knows what hes talking about out on the thundurus example, i felt obliged to call you out on your shit.

btw, its funny how you ignored everything else in my post, such as landorus being banned for doing exactly what you said shouldnt matter. cute

 

[Matthew]

This thread isn't about Landorus-I's banning -- though I disagree with the premise it was banned upon too. And I told you. It's going to be suspected (then banned). It's a flaw with the system and the players who abuse the system.

EDIT:

I'm asking you to form a coherent argument. I'm not asking you to do fucking differential equations. If you can't form one (and there have been some formed in this thread, not by you however) then you probably shouldn't really be allowed to vote. Listing numbers and giving me a fake situation (yes, fake) doesn't help.

You can tell me it's happened countless of times yet does it happen every time? Is there only one situation where this happens? I'm sure there's plenty of times you switched in Thundurus and it died. Do we account for those situations?

 

[haunter]

And after the last pearls from rey and Matthew, I think we can consider this discussion closed. The council is, unanimously, convinced that Keldeo deserves to be tested. An official suspect thread will be up soon.

As a side note, @reyscarface: note that your posts have not been infracted solely because you have good taste when it comes to football. If you wish to continue posting in this forum, you better calm down a little.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to develop the discussion in this thread.