STABmons Doubles [Water Spout and Eruption now banned]

[Monte Cristo]

I can't believe I'm doing this, but banning a huge part of a metagame with no apparent community input whatsoever is completely unacceptable, OM or not. I'm stepping in and unbanning Politoed. If you wish to re-ban it, convince me that there is a very good reason to ban it, and get support from other players.

Arctic, we were at joims lab when thsi ban happend, and BK banned it for a reason, the community wanted it. What I mean by this is he literally asked everybody in the chat, "It's getting to a point where people are saying ban poli/rain, should I do it?" and Laga, Nollan, and I responded yes and our own reasons why. Now if you think the community wanting it does not justify it, I could explain all of my thoughts in detail, but I want to see if this was enough for you if not, jsut reply to this.

 

[Arcticblast]

I'd kind of like to see some thoughts on the matter, so if anyone has logs that would be swell.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Alright I'll say my thoughts. Drizzle(Note I said drizzle and not politoed because politoed still has water absorb LOL) was broken imo, Mainly because it decreased diversity and generally took skill out of the game. Alright first of all, it decreased diversity; Ok, so no matter how much playstyles and pokemon are usable just because of rain (rain stall etc.) most of them are usable and still good OUTSIDE of rain, AND it nerfs more playstyles and pokemon so severely and also more than it neutralizes or boosts pokemon or playstyles. For instance, eruption without extreme amounts of ninetales + rage powder support (ninetales can't take hits from rain mons for shit LMAO) is now unviable, same with most fire moves, well the same can be said about sun and fire moves, however rain can be relied on more as the simple fact is that rain is going to be on more teams so it is going to be easier to rely on those water types. Second of all, THE WATER TYPES THEMSELVES! even WITH drizzle + swsw ban, they were still insane, they all had near perfect BSTs and STABS, also combined with the fact that every water mon gets WATER SPOUT, now if you know me, you know I bash OU rain players saying rain > sun because lack of rain abusers, but now with WATER SPOUT KELDEO and WATER SPOUT STARMIE, ETC it makes rain very hard to stop, and why this is superior to eruption is because of rains reliability AND because the majority of water spout users have better stat spreads, BSTs, and are just better than most fire types (eruption has victini, heatran (mainly TR) and volcarona basically, all of which have major flaws) especially considering the water types handy dandy resistances over fire types.

It took skill out of the game because you can just spam all the water spouts and strip away 75% of your opponents poke's health and HEAVILY damage them, then save another water spout abuser and repeat, except this time there are no pokemon who can live, so you've just got no skill water spout abuse , and this is not even considering NON water types, come on, admit it, this shit's more insane than the normal types.

 

[Nollan]

I'd kind of like to see some thoughts on the matter, so if anyone has logs that would be swell.

I mostly gave in because people were declaring Rain OP, which is admittedly fairly accurate. However, my own opinion is that we should ban Eruption and Water Spout, because so many threats get access to them and it is hard to keep your priority users alive, especially when they can just spam Heat Wave or Muddy Water when they expect said priority. I also suggested banning the combination of Spore & Prankster, because Whimsicott is just a huge pain to deal with.

The reason I agreed to the Drizzle ban BK was suggesting was because I viewed it as a more temporary ban, to keep the boring Water Spout spam out of the picture while we debated this very thing.

Imo, we could probably keep Rain from being out of hand by banning Swift Swim & Water Spout, both of which are huge problems, since every Swift Swimmer can spam Muddy Water, and Water Spout Scarf Politoed and others are just too hard to deal with (believe me, I have tried, they can score 2HKOs on Cresselia and resists, and OHKOs on virtually everything else). I also recommend banning Eruption, because Scarf Eruption pokemon are similarly going to be a challenge, though they are not as bad as Water Spout spammers. In general, the raw power these pokemon deliver on the field is unmatchable by other types of teams, which discourages balanced and varied strategy, something I am heavily against.

The other biggest issue I have seen so far is Whimsicott (and Cottonee to a lesser extent). These pokemon have access to Prankster Spore, and basically can reliably incapacitate a threat for the teammate with priority. While this is not too much an issue in Singles, Doubles makes switching risky, and this as such makes the Sleep Clause very ineffective. Overall, I recommend we ban the combination of Prankster and Spore/Sleep Powder (I'd say GrassWhistle, but anyone dumb enough to try something that unreliable would truly disappoint me), basically since it, along with Encore and the many other options the cotton balls have, makes them far too hard to deal with, and rips diversity out of this metagame, which I have stated I am heavily against.

Apart from that, everything I have seen (in other words, me, since I always run Goodstuff, and a few others brave enough to break the status quo) has been pretty creative, balanced, and really makes the metagame a fun one. 'Grats to everyone who helped make this metagame, I really am enjoying it. :)

PS- Imo, we should cast a vote on proposed bans, democracy is the way to do things 'round here

 

[Halliday]

That's their reasons, but I had a much more simple one in mind. The main reason I did this was, I didn't want to make the same mistake OU did. I think that one of the biggest reasons OU has such a big banlist this gen is because instead of just banning rain, they would just ban a threat that's broken in the rain, and when something else was broken in the absence of the other threat, ban that. That in my opinion, was the biggest issue this generation, the banning of rain threats, and not realizing that rain itself was what was broken. I didn't want to make the same mistake, and as some experienced doubles players, (Nollan, Laga, and to a less extent, Oiawesome), agreed to banning it, I felt that that was a good reason for a ban. Now you may disagree with this, but my opinion on the matter is not likely to change.

Edit: That said, Nollan is right about voting, so I am going to make this thread a poll.
Edit 2: If I can figure out how to make it into a poll, that is...

 

[Arcticblast]

Just make a new thread for the poll if you're going with that.

 

[Mr Omgness]

I foresaw a Rain ban the moment this topic was made actually. With everything getting Water Spout and Hurricane things are bound to get dirty.

Water Spout (and to a lesser extent Eruption) is a BS move in STABdoubles anyway; not only is it a spread move, the fact that everyone (part 3 & 4) gets Follow Me and Ragepowder makes it a lot easier to fire it off at max HP, throw in a Water Gem and you got yourself some mayhem.

Now Hurricane is not a spread move so how does it influence Doubles? Well one thing: Genies. The Genies are about to overcentralize STABmon doubles and all 6 of them were a great choice for rain teams; they all have access to Tailwind, Roost and have great abilities for Doubles and now they get a 120 STAB move that potentially confuses the target. I haven't seen many games but all of them involved rain and all those rain teams had atleast 1 Genie (and most of them had 2).

Banning Toed won't do that much tho, in Doubles running Rain Dance yourself is 10x more viable then it is in singles. You lose your auto-weather, but you can switch Toed for a better mon.

 

[Pikachuun]

I agree with banning Water Spout and Eruption. The ability to just spam a 150 BP weather-boosted move with your teammate tanking all damage besides moves like EQ and Slide just overcentralizes the meta, just like Excadrill and DrizzleSwim did in OU with blinding speed and impressive STABs.

 

[Mr Omgness]

Tired of Spouters everywhere? Introducing Wide Guard TTar: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/joimslab-doublescustomgame-1739

Wide Guard is a great move in doubles but very poorly distributed. Interesting as it is, it is a Rock-Type Move! I can see some Rock-Types getting a great boost from it as they are very commonly targeted by Surf, Spout, Muddy Water and EQ. Aggron, Regirock, Terrakion, Steelix (through Onix) are a few that come to mind that really appreciate this move.

PS: I used Unnerve TTar because I wanted a weatherless team (and Unnerve has it's uses in doubles anyway).

PPS: This was only my 2nd doubles game ever so dont be too harsh on me (and Spartan) :P.

 

[Nollan]

Tired of Spouters everywhere? Introducing Wide Guard TTar: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/joimslab-doublescustomgame-1739

Wide Guard is a great move in doubles but very poorly distributed. Interesting as it is, it is a Rock-Type Move! I can see some Rock-Types getting a great boost from it as they are very commonly targeted by Surf, Spout, Muddy Water and EQ. Aggron, Regirock, Terrakion, Steelix (through Onix) are a few that come to mind that really appreciate this move.

PS: I used Unnerve TTar because I wanted a weatherless team (and Unnerve has it's uses in doubles anyway).

PPS: This was only my 2nd doubles game ever so dont be too harsh on me (and Spartan) :p.

Wide Guard has its merits, but it fails in succession; with prediction a Water Spout team can easily work around it. Still, yes, it is a very good move. :)

 

[Laga]

yo guys, Rain banned? I was at Joims lab when we where discussing this; two guys agreed rain was broken, Nollan was so tired that he probably looked like a zombie irl, and I disagreed.

Rain isn't really that overpowered, Water Spout and Eruption are the real problems. Even then, there are great counters such as Fake Out, Wide Guard (Tyranitar is boss btw), and priority moves with now better distribution (Sucker Punch TTar, ESpeed Braviary, etc). Definitely still strongly disagree with the banning of Rain. I also kinda disagree with banning Water Spout and Eruption (due to said common counters).

What we really need to discuss banning is Whimsicott. Prankster Spore is ridiculously powerful...

 

[Halliday]

Okay, due to popular opinion from the community, the moves eruption and water spout are now banned. You happy artic? (Drizzleswim will get another chance now, though.)

 

[Nollan]

yo guys, Rain banned? I was at Joims lab when we where discussing this; two guys agreed rain was broken, Nollan was so tired that he probably looked like a zombie irl, and I disagreed.

Curse you Laga, the world now knows of my weakness, and they will abuse it. x_x

Okay, due to popular opinion from the community, the moves eruption and water spout are now banned. You happy artic? (Drizzleswim will get another chance now, though.)

Lol, I thought we we gonna have a vote :u

Rain isn't really that overpowered, Water Spout and Eruption are the real problems. Even then, there are great counters such as Fake Out, Wide Guard (Tyranitar is boss btw), and priority moves with now better distribution (Sucker Punch TTar, ESpeed Braviary, etc). Definitely still strongly disagree with the banning of Rain. I also kinda disagree with banning Water Spout and Eruption (due to said common counters).

What we really need to discuss banning is Whimsicott. Prankster Spore is ridiculously powerful...

Wide Guard doesn't work as well as you might hope, they might predict it and slam you with a Hydro Pump, or etc. Fake Out may stop one, but they can always Protect, and then kill you. My point between these moves is not that they are completely unstoppable, but that they a extremely powerful and easy to abuse, anything that can delay them can be worked around. Getting rid of them gets rid of all Rain, Sun, and Trick Room problems that might exist; these moves become far too powerful when given such a wide distribution, especially in tandem with Rage Powder, Follow Me, and other moves all over the place.

Now, as far Whimsicott goes, that definitely needs to be dealt with... however, I think banning Prankster + Spore/Sleep Powder can get the job done without kicking Whimsicott out, plus even if you banned Whimsicott, Cottonee could still troll you w/ Eviolite and the same set.

 

[Arcticblast]

Vote please - don't make quick decisions on tiering unless there is unanimous agreement that something is detrimental to the metagame in some way.

 

[Mr Omgness]

Curse you Laga, the world now knows of my weakness, and they will abuse it. x_x



Lol, I thought we we gonna have a vote :u



Wide Guard doesn't work as well as you might hope, they might predict it and slam you with a Hydro Pump, or etc. Fake Out may stop one, but they can always Protect, and then kill you. My point between these moves is not that they are completely unstoppable, but that they a extremely powerful and easy to abuse, anything that can delay them can be worked around. Getting rid of them gets rid of all Rain, Sun, and Trick Room problems that might exist; these moves become far too powerful when given such a wide distribution, especially in tandem with Rage Powder, Follow Me, and other moves all over the place.

Now, as far Whimsicott goes, that definitely needs to be dealt with... however, I think banning Prankster + Spore/Sleep Powder can get the job done without kicking Whimsicott out, plus even if you banned Whimsicott, Cottonee could still troll you w/ Eviolite and the same set.

I'm kinda defending my own statement ofc so I might be biased but I dont see many mons running Hydro Pump in STABDoubles (yet). Running Water Spout + Surf/Muddy Water + Hydro Pump is overkill. Water Spout's damage is based on HP so the user will most likely have a 2nd water attack at it's disposal and it will be Surf or Muddy Water most of the time. Off course Hydro Pump can become a better alternative if Wide Guard proves to be that useful and common.

Doubles will always be full of spread moves even if Wide Guard becomes a staple on a lot of teams, just carrying or bluffing Wide Guard can put you in favor, the predicting can begin! Also, your opponent will rather use his 100% Surf/Spout than a 85% Hydro Pump; the same goes for Earthquake and Bonemerang, Rock Slide and Stone Edge, Searing Shot and Fire Blast.

On top of that Rock-type is great for it as they are the prime target of Earthquake and Surfs/Spouts/Muddies.

 

[Nollan]

I'm kinda defending my own statement ofc so I might be biased but I dont see many mons running Hydro Pump in STABDoubles (yet). Running Water Spout + Surf/Muddy Water + Hydro Pump is overkill. Water Spout's damage is based on HP so the user will most likely have a 2nd water attack at it's disposal and it will be Surf or Muddy Water most of the time. Off course Hydro Pump can become a better alternative if Wide Guard proves to be that useful and common.

Doubles will always be full of spread moves even if Wide Guard becomes a staple on a lot of teams, just carrying or bluffing Wide Guard can put you in favor, the predicting can begin! Also, your opponent will rather use his 100% Surf/Spout than a 85% Hydro Pump; the same goes for Earthquake and Bonemerang, Rock Slide and Stone Edge, Searing Shot and Fire Blast.

On top of that Rock-type is great for it as they are the prime target of Earthquake and Surfs/Spouts/Muddies.

Yeah, I'm not saying Wide Guard is a bad move at all, it is absolutely wonderful. My point of that statement was mostly to say that Water Spout is overcentralizing, and can work around those sorts of moves, hence that is why it is banned. Sorry if it sounded like I was accusing Wide Guard of being a bad move or anything alone those lines, I wasn't intending to (believe me, my best team so far uses Wide Guard, lol).

I might as well present one of the first sets I tried in this metagame:

Ursaring @ Flame Orb
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
- ExtremeSpeed
- Earthquake / Close Combat / Fake Out
- Crunch
- Protect

Probably one of the most powerful priority abusers in the tier. I haven't used it as much nowadays, since a lot of teams are packing Intimidate users and bulky Pokemon, but it is still extremely powerful, and with Water Spout out of the picture, it might see some more use.

 

[Halliday]

@ Articblast, I know, but pretty much everyone has agreed that water spout and eruption are broken. So, unless you object strongly enough to change it yourself, they're gone.

 

[Mr Omgness]

That's the thing that has been terrorizing STABmon singles for a while now (with some minor adjustments to the Doubles metagame), hehe. Which got me thinking what other guys who do good in STABsingles would be viable in Doubles.

Staraptor @ Flying Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
- ExtremeSpeed
- Fake Out
- Acrobatics
- Protect / Close Combat / Nature Power

A bulkier set using HP EVs can work as well, with Intimidate and Ground immunity it has good switch-in opportunities. Flying Gem Acrobatics deals an overload of damage to most mons. It differentiates itself from Lando-T because of priority and better Speed.

Staraptor @ White Herb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
- Shell Smash
- ExtremeSpeed
- Acrobatics
- Close Combat / Nature Power / Substitute

With intimidate and, if needed, some Team Support (Ragepowder, Follow Me, Screens,...) the usual singles set can do work in Doubles as well.

Aerodactyl @ Lum Berry / Focus Sash
Trait: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
- Head Smash
- Rock Slide
- Brave Bird
- Taunt / Wide Guard / Tailwind

This guy got a lot more interesting. Rock Head is finally useful with Head Smash and Brave Bird. Wide Guard has certainly a surprise factor on him and is viable (target of Rock Slide and Water Moves). 130 Speed Taunt.

Lum Berry to counter Thundurus' Prankster T-Wave most notably, who is a very common lead, Focus Sash could be used for obvious reasons. You could go more offensively with Dactyl by putting Earthquake as a 4th Attack or more supporting by dropping an attack for one of the slashed moves or Protect and tinker the EVs a bit.

 

[juleocesar]

Another version of the metagame we all know and love <3. Supporting the idea...

 

[canno]

Let's talk about the Rotom Formes! :D

Rotom-Mow @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SAtk / 16 SDef
Modest Nature
- Seed Flare / Giga Drain
- Thunderbolt
- Spore
- Protect / Leech Seed

Bulky Rotom-Mow works similar to Rotom-W in terms of being a Rain Check, except instead of using it to boost its STAB like Wash, it has 2 STABS that destroy Water-types and can use Rain to nullify its Fire weakness. Seed Flare is the strongest STAB that Rotom-Mow can use, and has a nasty side effect. Giga Drain can be used instead for more HP, but the power difference is huge. Thunderbolt is the electric STAB that helps destroy some Water-types and Flying-types that think they can resists its Grass STABs. Spore is really useful, and what really sets it apart from the other Rotom Forms. Protect is staple, but Leech Seed can be used for more recovery.

Rotom-Mow @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef (Scarf) or 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 SpD (Specs)
Timid Nature / Modest Nature
- Seed Flare
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Fire] / Trick / Destiny Bond
- Volt Switch / Trick / Destiny Bond

This set (more like 2 sets - Scard and Specs play very differenly) really lets Rotom Mow through Rain and Sand Teams. Seed Flare is chosen as main STAB as it wrecks Water-, Rock-, and Ground-types, and can lower SpDef by 2 stages. Thunderbolt is secondary STAB and is more reliable than Seed Flare. Thunder can be used if you're in a Rain Team, but TBolt is more desirable. HP Ice lets you hit Dragon- and Grass-types that resist both your STABs. HP Fire is also an option to wreck Ferrothorn and other Steels that resists your STAB Combo, along side the Grass-types. Volt Switch gives you momentum, so its pretty nifty. Trick is an option to cripple walls when you are low. Destiny Bond is a neat move, especially on the Scarf Set, when you're about to die, as it lets you bring one with you. It can get DBond from Normal Rotom, as it is a Ghost-type.

Rotom-Fan @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SAtk / 16 SDef
Modest Nature
- Aeroblast / Air Slash / Hurricane
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Will-O-Wisp
- Tailwind / Protect / Destiny Bond

Rotom-Fan has to compete directly with Zapdos and both Thundurus Forms. Fortunantely, Rotom-Fan has something over the two - Will-o-Wisp. This lets Rotom-Fan to be much more bulky than it really is. Aeroblast and TBolt are strong STABs, although Air Slash can be used if you want some flinch fun. Hurricane and Thunder are an option if you use this in a Rain Team, although those moves might be better on a Scarf/Specs set. Will-O-Wisp is what makes Rotom-Fan unique, as it lets it burn pokemon unlike Thundy and Zapdos. Tailwind gives your team a speed boost, while Protect is a staple. DBond is an option here as well, as that is also a thing that Thundy and Zapdos don't have.

Rotom-Fan @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef (Scarf) or 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 SpD (Specs)
Timid Nature
- Hurricane / Aeroblast / Air Slash
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Destiny Bond / Trick
- Volt Switch / Air Slash

This set competes directly with Thundy and Zapdos, but it does have some unique features. This set is meant to be used in a Rain Team, which is why Hurricane ad Thunder are the main STABs here. TBolt and Aeroblast are options for non-Rain Teams. Air Slash can be annoying on a scarf set. DBond and Trick are things that make Rotom-F different from Zapdos and Thundy. DBond lets Rotom-Fan make a last kill before dying, while Trick cripples walls. Volt Switch is momentum. Again, Air Slash is annoying on a Scarf Set, so that's an option.

Too lazy to do Rotom-Heat an Rotom-Wash, but all they really get is a 30% chance to Burn and some neat spread moves. Rotom-Heat does get some strong STABs though, like Blue Flare or Fiery Dance (Scarf). Rotom-Frost could be cool in Hail teams, but I don't see it doing much else. Glaciate is a thing I guess.

 

[EV]

I like your analyses on the Rotoms. Why not slash in Discharge for Electric STAB as well?

Rotom-Frost is very viable on Hail teams with Blizzard and Discharge hitting both opponents and outside of Hail it still has Ice Beam.

 

[Nollan]

I think the Reptile covered things in terms of the Rotom formes. Unfortunately, Rotom-Fan is pretty much outclassed completely by Zapdos & Thundurus, who can do the same thing with more speed and offensive power, and Rotom's pathetic 50 base HP means that they are bulkier too (Levitate is also a completely worthless ability on it).

Rotom-Wash does get Soak, which might see some use, but I dunno.

Rotom-Heat & Frost really just get more STAB variety (and Glaciate), as well as various spread moves to play with, not much more.

 

[canno]

I think the Reptile covered things in terms of the Rotom formes. Unfortunately, Rotom-Fan is pretty much outclassed completely by Zapdos & Thundurus, who can do the same thing with more speed and offensive power, and Rotom's pathetic 50 base HP means that they are bulkier too (Levitate is also a completely worthless ability on it).

Rotom-Wash does get Soak, which might see some use, but I dunno.

Rotom-Heat & Frost really just get more STAB variety (and Glaciate), as well as various spread moves to play with, not much more.

I wouldn't say completely - it does get Will o Wisp, and it has pretty good bulk despite its low HP. However, outside of that and DBond it is pretty much outclassed.

Rotom Heat DOES get Heat Wave and Blue Flare / Fusion Flare but yeah not much else outside more STABs. Rotom Frost gets the least out of all of them, but now it has Ice Beam and Glaciate. One of the better Ice-types and a decent hail threat IMO.

 

[Nollan]

Alright, the banning thread is pretty much dead, so the final results (for now) are:
1) Prankster + Spore/Sleep Powder will be banned
2) Nothing in the subject of Drizzle will be banned; Drizzle + Swift Swim, Water Spout, and Eruption are all legal.

Anyways, let's move on, let the meta grow and stabilize (maybe get a bigger playerbase), and then we can look into the Drizzle issue a bit more. Note that you can always play with these moves/abilities banned if you want to, they just will not officially be banned for the moment.

Oiawesome and I played 4 matches today, I have saved 3 (saving the replay is obv the winner's responsibility) of them (I lost the third one, got pretty annoyed over Oiawesome running Macho Brace Heatran that match specifically to outspeed under Trick Room x_x; we then got into a heated discussion of Macho Brace's viability):

Game 1
Game 2

I personally would class most uses of Macho Brace as very ineffective, the only thing they pay off against is opposing Trick Room (which imo sorta counts as counterteaming me x_x). We settled our argument with a match that wasn't TR vs TR (the best way to settle fights is to fight; remember that):

Game 4

Macho Brace proved itself very ineffective, but I played terribly turn 6 (trying to decide if I'm just not trying hard enough, if I suck now, or if the meta is just stupidly easy for nubs beginners to play), letting Oi get away with the poor item choice. After some misfortune in 2 Muddy Water misses, it came down to a double Protect, and good fortune gave me my 3rd win of the "set" (who knows, maybe I would have lived a Zen Headbutt, lol).

Hoping we can get some more organized play going, maybe an official format on a server or something, cuz that would be nice (it'd also allow Sleep Clause to actually exist, whenever I'm using my Cradily in Trick Room I am just dying to Spore everything, lol).

Speaking of Cradily, it is a great support 'mon. The set I use is Giga Drain / Sunny Day / Spore / Wide Guard (if that set can't handle Rain with solid play, Rain is certainly OP). I'm not giving away my top-level EV spread just yet though. :p

 

[Mr Omgness]

How viable is Sand TrickRoom? I haven't seen much Sand so far but with Metagross as a newly gained TR setter replacing the more passive Bronzong along with TTar, Cradily and some other guys their improvements this could become a good playstyle.

On a different note: Every normal-type gets Explosion now, making (Normal Gem) Explosion a legit set as it isnt as predictable anymore. Braviary for example? Or what about Snorlax?