Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)

[GCSChris]

Okay so the mega Kanto Pokemon have been revealed. I have updated the OP with the new info. There is at definitely some competitive discussion to be had with Charizard, and a good amount to talk about Venusaur as well.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

I posted this on Facebook about Mega Charizard:

"You mean they couldn't have come up with something different to give Mega Charizard? Charizard is 4x weak to Stealth Rock! Ain't nobody got time for that! Give it Magic Guard!

...

On a serious note, at least Mega Charizard won't be completely worthless offensively like Ninetales is... But something tells me I'd rather use Ninetales because lolstealthrock"

So yeah. I'm going to need a pretty damn good reason to use Mega Charizard over Ninetales for sun when considering that 4x Stealth Rock weakness, especially considering Mega Charizard uses up your "one Mega Evolution" thing. If Charizard's base Attack were just a bit higher then maybe ThunderPunch would be nice for owning Politoed, but nope (that is, if transferred Pokemon can also Mega Evolve which I assume would be possible, I don't see anything that would prevent it.) So, come on Game Freak. Mega Charizard, higher base Attack. (probably not gonna happen)

 

[Katakiri]

So in the news today, Charizard isn't a complete joke anymore.

-Increased SpAtk
-Drought

Ninetales sets up the sun as usual, Solar Power Charizard can come in to abuse it. But now, if a weather starter switches in, Charizard can Mega Evolve to reactivate Drought, removing Tyranitar's SpDef boost as well, and fire-off a Solar Beam in the same turn. Stealth Rock may forever be an issue, but at least you can't bring in a Politoed and shut him down anymore. If Volcarona can work around Stealth Rock, a powerful Pokemon with Drought should find some way.

-Increased Def & SpDef
-Thick Fat

Basically Ferrothorn with a poison-typing and far rarer weaknesses (Only Flying and Psychic thanks to Thick Fat.) Unlike the current DW Venusaur, Mega Venusaur has access to all of Venusaur's Egg Moves; most notably Nature Power, Power Whip, Leaf Storm, and Weather Ball. Likely going to make Keldeo its bitch with that typing and Thick Fat. 80 Base Speed and Giga Drain definitely gives it a niche over Ferrothorn as a Leech Seed/Status annoyer.


Mega Blastoise is something we know almost nothing about. They didn't state any boost to its stats and its new ability Mega Launcher is pretty ambiguous so there's not much to play around with there.

 

[GCSChris]

I think it's interesting that in sun, Venusaur is a huge offensive threat, and yet its MegaEvolution is a great Defensive threat. I wouldn't call it Ferorthorn (no steel), but damn this thing will almost certainly be an outstanding defensive mon.

MegaCharizard with Drought is awesome, but I will have to say that the x4 SR weakness is definitely keeping it from switching in a ton (what weather starters want to do). I think a team with MegaCharizard and Ninetales would be cool, but then you already have a screaming SR weakness, and you would probably want to use another SR weak pokemon such as volcarona. I can definitely see MegaCharizard taking Volcarona's spot on Sun teams though.

Also just a quick little discussion question: Was anyone else surprised that MegaCharizard got Drought and MegaBlastoise did not receive Drizzle?

 

[Katakiri]

Well I mean Mega Venusaur is like Ferrothorn in the sense that it walls Rain teams left, right, up, and down. Politoed can't touch it, Thundurus-T can only HP Ice for neutral damage, Keldeo...can probably 3HKO with Hydro Pump in Rain but Venu at least threatens with Giga Drain. Wiping-up Tentacruel's Toxic Spikes is always nice as well.

I was actually surprised that Blastoise didn't get Drizzle, but I can understand why. GF does focus on balance for the most part and having something that bulky with Drizzle, Rapid Spin, Water Spout, Aqua Jet, Dragon Tail, Block, I mean it's really easy to see why Drizzle on Blastoise would be passed on and thankfully they did just that.

 

[GCSChris]

Oh I agree with venusaur but I'm just saying I'm not counting ferrothorn out cause of its steel typing, however I'm starting to believe venusaur will be the new ferro, cause venusaur already has good bulk, I'm excited for MegaVenusaur.

Blast pose with drizzle would be so good. All of the things you said is why.

 

[Haruno]

80/83/100 defenses aren't that great and with a SpD boost (only thing that was confirmed) venausaur will still be incredibly weak on the physical side and unlike ferro lacks resistance to dragon which is huge.

Charizard is still slow by Ou standards and has that horrendous 4x sr weakness coupled with the fact that it'll probably be weaker than solar flare zard, I really don't see a reason to use it.

Blastoise we have too little to go on so meh.

 

[Schpoonman]

I don't think MegaVenusaur will entirely supplant (heh) Ferrothorn, that Steel-typing and especially the hazards are way too important. But as a bulky wall, yeah, Venusaur will probably replace Ferrothorn, resisting Fighting and being neutral to Fire. Alakazam/other Psychics and Tornadus/other powerful Flying-types (fuck yeah Staraptor) will probably see more usage if MegaVenusaur does become popular.

I'm not gonna say anything definitive right now, of course, I remember when Tornadus-T was first revealed and a shitton of people were saying "UU".

 

[Halcyon.]

One thing to think about with Venusaur is that it can be both a sweeper and defensive Pokemon for the team should the need arise. For example, if you have it on a sun team and you end up losing the weather war, you can just have Venusaur Mega Evolve into a defensive 'mon to take on rain teams that now have control over the weather. I think that could be pretty cool. Of course, you would have to think carefully about when you change formes, since I'm pretty sure you can't change back.

 

[GCSChris]

One thing to think about with Venusaur is that it can be both a sweeper and defensive Pokemon for the team should the need arise. For example, if you have it on a sun team and you end up losing the weather war, you can just have Venusaur Mega Evolve into a defensive 'mon to take on rain teams that now have control over the weather. I think that could be pretty cool. Of course, you would have to think carefully about when you change formes, since I'm pretty sure you can't change back.

I think this is an amazing point. You can have a deadly sun sweeper AND a great defensive 'mon

 

[Schpoonman]

I don't think it will be like that, for any Mega Evolution. Defensive Pokemon sorely miss Leftovers. Offensive Pokemon that typically can only manage one or two boosts will want Life Orb (like Venusaur). Try running Timid Chlorosaur with Leftovers or even without an item. Venusaur NEEDS Life Orb, so any Venusaur running its Mega Stone will be a dedicated MegaVenusaur.

EDIT: Wanted to amend the bit about sweepers but didn't know how to properly alter the wording, so I'm just adding this. Of course there are Pokemon who get by without a boosting item, like DD Lum Berry Salamence/Dragonite/Haxorus. But Venusaur is significantly less powerful than all of these Pokemon. I really think it needs that Life Orb in order to sweep with its Chlorophyll sets.

 

[Halcyon.]

What I mean is that if you lose the weather war, Venusaur is pretty much dead weight for a sun team besides its typing. This will at least increase its defensive utility by raising its stats. It isn't meant to become a fully defensive Pokémon, but it's better than a NON Mega Evolved Venusaur outside of the sun.

 

[Schpoonman]

Okay, I see what you mean now.

 

[Karpi]

I doubt that they will increase Venusaur's Sp Def. to 150, but let's assume they do. If you put EVs in that to make it a "special wall", you now have something with special defense equal to Clefable after ONE Calm Mind. Do you trust +1 Clefable to take hits?

 

[Haruno]

What I mean is that if you lose the weather war, Venusaur is pretty much dead weight for a sun team besides its typing. This will at least increase its defensive utility by raising its stats. It isn't meant to become a fully defensive Pokémon, but it's better than a NON Mega Evolved Venusaur outside of the sun.

Doesn't change the fact that megavenasaur is slow and pretty lacking in the physical department.

 

[Halcyon.]

Ok first of all, you have no idea how good or bad Mega Venusaur is in the "physical department," as you don't know it's base stats. Second of all, assuming that Venusaur keeps its base 80 speed, then I'd say its pretty fast for a bulky 'mon, especially since it will be almost fully invested in it because it was originally a chlorophyll sweeper. I really don't get why it's so difficult for people to understand what I'm saying.

1. Get a sun team
2. Put Venusaur on it
3. SWEEP
4. If 3 is impossible due to losing the weather war, MEGA EVOLVE
5. Have a bulkier Venusaur that can ABSOLUTELY be more useful than regular Venusaur outside of the sun due to increased bulk and decent defensive typing when including Thick Fat (you lose your Fire and Ice weaknesses).

I doubt that they will increase Venusaur's Sp Def. to 150, but let's assume they do. If you put EVs in that to make it a "special wall", you now have something with special defense equal to Clefable after ONE Calm Mind. Do you trust +1 Clefable to take hits?

I genuinely have no idea what this means. Obviously Venusaur has a better defensive typing than Clefable, resisting Grass, Fighting, and Water attacks.

 

[termi]

80/83/100 defenses aren't that great and with a SpD boost (only thing that was confirmed) venausaur will still be incredibly weak on the physical side and unlike ferro lacks resistance to dragon which is huge.

He does get a boost in the physical defense department, read more carefully.

Anyways, I'm pretty psyched about Mega Venusaur. I love stall and a defensive beast with only two weaknesses (one of which is rather uncommon) might help in increasing stall's viability. If auto-rain sticks around because DW abilities stay legal or because another Mega Evolution happens to learn Drizzle he'll make the finest rain counter around for sure, and while people currently use him because of his offensive potential, let's not forget that his supportive/defensive movepool is great as well (Leech Seed, Synthesis, Roar, Sleep Powder and of course the obvious Toxic and Substitute). Ferrothorn would of course hold his niche as a solid dragon counter (although the advent of fairy types might make him less used in this niche as well) and a fantastic spiker, but Venusaur would just kick so much ass.

As for the other two: Charizard would probably make for some solid ubers material (the irony) or else he'd be the terror of ou (the irony), I don't know how good Mega Blastoise will be because there hasn't been given much valuable information about him, but even if his Mega form turns out to be shite, regular Blastoise is still good enough on his own.

 

[Haruno]

He does get a boost in the physical defense department, read more carefully.

Anyways, I'm pretty psyched about Mega Venusaur. I love stall and a defensive beast with only two weaknesses (one of which is rather uncommon) might help in increasing stall's viability. If auto-rain sticks around because DW abilities stay legal or because another Mega Evolution happens to learn Drizzle he'll make the finest rain counter around for sure, and while people currently use him because of his offensive potential, let's not forget that his supportive/defensive movepool is great as well (Leech Seed, Synthesis, Roar, Sleep Powder and of course the obvious Toxic and Substitute). Ferrothorn would of course hold his niche as a solid dragon counter (although the advent of fairy types might make him less used in this niche as well) and a fantastic spiker, but Venusaur would just kick so much ass.

As for the other two: Charizard would probably make for some solid ubers material (the irony) or else he'd be the terror of ou (the irony), I don't know how good Mega Blastoise will be because there hasn't been given much valuable information about him, but even if his Mega form turns out to be shite, regular Blastoise is still good enough on his own.

Oh derp, my bad, either way it still lacks the core resistances that ferro has not to mention it's still slow as hell. Unless it gets a major boost in both defenses I can't see it being too useful.

Charizard uber material? Are you kidding? 4x weak to sr, slow by ou standards, weaker than it's solar flare counterpart (no megazard isn't getting a 50% boost in SpA if it did that would be plain retarded) and we all know how good ninetales is with that awesome combination of 2x weak and slow and frail. Charizard's just faster and even frailer lol.

 

[GCSChris]

Charizard would probably make for some solid ubers material (the irony) or else he'd be the terror of ou (the irony)

While Charizard will probably be good OU, it probably won't be Ubers, like Haruno said above.

I'm starting to really like the idea of Venusaur + Ninetales + MegaCharizard on a sun team. Sun is devastated by losing the weather war (all weather teams are, but I feel sun just really hates it). Right in that core of 3 pokemon you have a powerful chloropyll sweeper, your sun starter, and a great sun attacker that ALSO starts sun. While Charizard will hopefully only be switching in very little due to Stealth Rock, the extra sun helps so much. Slap on a spinner and you're a couple pokemon away from a great sun team imo.

 

[termi]

Oh derp, my bad, either way it still lacks the core resistances that ferro has not to mention it's still slow as hell. Unless it gets a major boost in both defenses I can't see it being too useful.

Charizard uber material? Are you kidding? 4x weak to sr, slow by ou standards, weaker than it's solar flare counterpart (no megazard isn't getting a 50% boost in SpA if it did that would be plain retarded) and we all know how good ninetales is with that awesome combination of 2x weak and slow and frail. Charizard's just faster and even frailer lol.

Zard's not even faster, but that's beside the point. Base 100 speed might not be amazing, but it can be easily patched up with a scarf, similar to what Politoed does (and that guy works with base 70 speed ffs). He does have some things that definitely put him way above Ninetales though:
- actually usable offensive stats, even if we're assuming Megazard's SpA stat will "only" reach base 130 he still hits like a truck in his self-provided sun:
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in sun: 139-164 (46.48 - 54.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 380-448 (94.05 - 110.89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Charizard Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 270-318 (83.59 - 98.45%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And there's a fair chance that his SpA stat will turn out higher than base 130.
- if he leads he will always set the weather in his favor. See, when he leads vs. Politoed, Drizzle will activate. However, since Zard Megaevolves in order to activate sun, he can instantly get the weather in his favor anyway. That's pretty great if you ask me.

Meanwhile, the only thing that really hurts him is the 4x SR weakness. Being frailer than Ninetales doesn't really matter to him all that much. Fine, he's not uber material but damn he will wreck some shit.

 

[GCSChris]

- if he leads he will always set the weather in his favor. See, when he leads vs. Politoed, Drizzle will activate. However, since Zard Megaevolves in order to activate sun, he can instantly get the weather in his favor anyway. That's pretty great if you ask me.

Good point.

Also, I'd like to point out that anything can really happen. So stuff like this:

no megazard isn't getting a 50% boost in SpA if it did that would be plain retarded

is kind of pointless. While this may be a bad example, (+50 spAtk would probably be pretty retarded lol) nothing is out of the question; Game Freak has done some pretty stupid stuff.

Despite that, I love where this discussion is going, and I like how people are backing up their arguments, not just saying "Charizard would be ubers." (just an example)

Hopefully we'll get at looking at MegaBlastoise too, but MegaVenusaur and MegaCharizard are generating a lot of discussion already!

 

[Gary]

Oh....my...god. My body is ready. Just take my fucking money Game Freak.

 

[GCSChris]

Oh....my...god. My body is ready. Just take my fucking money Game Freak.

Okay I'd like to not have too many posts like this in the thread as it's geared towards competitive discussion.. but yeah basically this^ lol

 

[X5Dragon]

About Blastoise's new Mega Launcher (assuming 50% increase), here are the moves that contain the word pulse:

Heal Pulse (50% -> Rest with sleeping?)
Dragon Pulse (135 BP)
Dark Pulse (120 BP + 20% flinch rate)
Water Pulse (90 BP + 20% confusion rate)

Other moves that could potentially benefit from the boost:

Signal Beam
Hydro Cannon
Hydro Pump
Flash Cannon
Ice Beam
Aurasphere (has word pulse/wave in Japanese)

It is also noticeable that he got a bit heavier according to the data, so my guess is that he's gonna get a boost to his SpA and one/both of his defenses, putting in the middle road between Venasaur and Charizard.

Hmmm, I can see this running around choiced in Rain teams. Can't think much of anything else.

 

[GCSChris]

Not to be rude, but this isn't a theorymon thread; please discuss information as it is confirmed. Of course speculation is in order, but I think you can't just assume a 50% boost to pulse moves just because of the name. Thanks.