The RU Viability Ranking Thread

[Molk]

I'm not going to be making any updates just yet, as i'm really not 100% sure what to move this time around with all the arguments about Emboar and everything, a bunch of proposals were drowned out and didn't really get that much discussion. For reference, i'll list all the proposals made since then here in case anyone wants to provide any opinions.

Lilligant up from mid A rank ---> top A rank
Escavalier down from low S rank ---> top A rank
Skuntank up from top D rank ---> low C rank
Crawdaunt up from top C rank ---> low/mid B rank
Archeops up from top C rank ---> low/mid B rank
Magmortar up from mid B rank ---> top B rank

Anyways, i also have a proposal of my own to make, although i don't know who will agree or disagree with me on this :s.

Does anyone else think that Drapion should be moved down from top C rank to mid C rank?

From both using and playing against Drapion in the current metagame i've found it to be quite mediocre to be honest. At first glance Drapion might seem like a good offensive Pokemon with its decent stats all around and solid offensive movepool, but i find that it sort of suffers from both its only slightly above average base 90 Attack stat and the low base power of its STAB and coverage moves (none of its STAB moves are stronger than base 80 and the strongest coverage move i can think of only has 100 BP, think about how Electivire has excellent coverage but its held back by its low base power/suicidal coverage moves that make it miss out on KOs it should be getting).

If you want two good examples of Drapion simply not being powerful enough. +0 Life Orb Drapion is slightly outdamaged by Life Orb Meowth double edge, which is kind of pathetic given how low Meowth's base attack is, and non Life Orb Drapion still gets outdamaged by Zangoose after two Swords Dances, i know Zangoose hits pretty hard but i'd really expect something with +4 attack to outdamage it >_>. I've found that Drapion often misses out on KOs against reasonably bulky Pokemon even after a Swords Dance boost because of this, and with no absolute top tier threats such as Cresselia and Cofagrigus to target like the scorpion had in past metagames, i've often found its not worth using tbh.

As a Toxic Spiker, Drapion most definitely does have a niche, but i often find that both Roselia and Qwilfish are superior Toxic Spikers in the current metagame unless i need a good Psychic-type check or access to Whirlwind. Otherwise, the competition from these other Poison-types and Drapion's lack of Special Bulk give it problems in this role as well.

Of course there are times where Drapion is indeed a good fit on a team, but to be honest i really don't think Drapion is a good option on most playstyles in this metagame, and that Mid C rank would fit it better.

Drapion Calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Drapion Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cinccino: 200-238 (68.49 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Meowth Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cinccino: 204-242 (69.86 - 82.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 252 Atk Drapion Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 255-300 (47.75 - 56.17%) -- 30.47% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 262-309 (49.06 - 57.86%) -- 53.13% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Drapion Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 169-201 (31.64 - 37.64%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Scraggy Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 184-217 (34.45 - 40.63%) -- 55.42% chance to 3HKO

 

[Jaiho]

I'm not going to be making any updates just yet, as i'm really not 100% sure what to move this time around with all the arguments about Emboar and everything, a bunch of proposals were drowned out and didn't really get that much discussion. For reference, i'll list all the proposals made since then here in case anyone wants to provide any opinions.

What about my magmortar post?

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Lilligant is Top A for sure imo, that thing is one of the scariest setup sweepers in the tier. Sleep Powder+Quiver Dance is a really scary combo, and Emboar/Entei/Escavalier running Sleep Talk, as said before, is mostly due to Lilligant (and Smeargle, who is A+ as well). It can be really scary with the boosts, as it's fast and powerful, and a problem with many of Lilligant's counters is that they don't have recovery, so they get worn down rather easily. Lilligant is easily a destructive Pokemon and I think it sits pretty close to S, making it worthy of Top A imo.

Also Magmortar is something I have no opinion on, I'll playtest it and come back later.

I completely agree with SV on Escavalier and Skuntank. Escavalier is really good, with great typing, bulk, etc. making it a powerful force, and Skuntank is really outclassed. SV summed up everything I would say on those matters.

I would be okay with moving Drapion down, it's pretty damn bad. It's weak, and it's outclassed in all of its roles; Scolipede and Absol are better SDers, Escavalier, Spiritomb, and Absol are better Pursuit trappers, and Roselia, Qwilfish, and Scolipede in Toxic Spikes. Drapion definitely has its merits and can be used on some teams, but a lot of the time there are better choices. Mid C looks good.

 

[complete legitimacy]

I disagree with moving Magmortar up. Hurricane Moltres has kinda taken over its niche because Slowking can't beat Moltres 100% of the time either now. They both require a lot of support, and Moltres is more threatening to more teams. Also, with the rise of Toxic Spikes, this means that Moltres is a lot more suited to beat common stall builds (although Regirock stall beats Moltres). Magmortar is pretty outclassed now; its only redeeming factor is Vital Spirit, which means that you should only use Magmortar over Moltres if you're absurdly weak to HP Fire Lilligant or something.

 

[Magcargo]

I disagree with moving Magmortar up. Hurricane Moltres has kinda taken over its niche because Slowking can't beat Moltres 100% of the time either now.

Hurricane's only has a 15% chance to 2HKO Slowking if Stealth Rock is not factored in. Even with Stealth Rock, it only has a 49% to 2HKO it due to its low accuracy.
EDIT: My bad. I misunderstood complete legitimacy

 

[SilentVerse]

Except Magmortar also has to predict to hit Slowking with Thunderbolt on the switch, while Moltres can just spam its ridiculously spammable Hurricane to hit whatever comes in hard. Magmortar is still a good wallbreaker for sure, but the fact that it requires a lot more prediction to gain something that could probably be just as easily achieved by Moltres with some luck makes it, imo, sort of outclassed. Honestly, when I play stall, I tend to find Moltres so much more difficult to answer because at least you can outplay Magmortar; Moltres is just going to hit whatever switches in ridiculous hard, which means that more often than not, unless I carry a dedicated counter like Lanturn or Regirock, I have to hope that Moltres misses some crucial Hurricanes in order to not lose something to it, whereas with Magmortar I can often just switch around until it dies from Tspikes. Because of that, Magmortar is fine in mid / low B imo.

 

[Laurel]

I just want to add something to the discussion Moltres vs Magmortar. I'm not sure if this has all already been said... SV seems to have covered most, but Tres is a beast compared to Magmortar. Yes, Magmortar can also hit stall, and has a slightly more diverse move pool and is less weak to rocks and electric-type attacks. However, Moltres does everything Magmortar does and better. It has a healing move in roost, so it can actually still do serious damage to your opponent even if they have rocks up. Also, as everyone said it can just spam Hurricane without prediction, which Magmortar requires. Furthermore, Moltres can run a variety of sets, Magmortar is much more limited. Occasionally you run into a sub Magmortar or if you're playing RU Creativity Mortar the Explorer [I had to]. However, Moltres can run phazing sets, toxi stall sets, specs sets, you name it. In addition, it's faster, and overall has better defensive stats. I think the only advantage Magmortar may have is more accurate coverage moves and less weak to stealth rocks. It also cannot be slept... lol. However, that does not mean it is a bad pokemon it just is not as good as Moltres and IMO I disagree with moving it up.

Also, I think Absol is a good pokemon, but not Mid A worthy. Thoughts? Perhaps it should be moved to Low A.

 

[Celever]

Absol was only in Mid A? I assumed it was Top A, but on second thought Mid A works well.

In this bulky metagame Absol is actually quite good at being a frail powerful nuke. It has the ever so annoying Sucker Punch+Pursuit combo that everyone hates, great coverage with Fire Blast and Superpower and is an overall great Pokemon. This isn't a long post since Absol is very simple: Great revenge-killer, immune to Psychic so can sometimes get switch-ins and trap, can also function as a Choice Scarf, though not very well, has good coverage. Flaws being it's slight 4MSS and obvious frailty, but I think his positives are so good he belongs in Mid A.

 

[Laurel]

Absol was only in Mid A? I assumed it was Top A, but on second thought Mid A works well.

In this bulky metagame Absol is actually quite good at being a frail powerful nuke. It has the ever so annoying Sucker Punch+Pursuit combo that everyone hates, great coverage with Fire Blast and Superpower and is an overall great Pokemon. This isn't a long post since Absol is very simple: Great revenge-killer, immune to Psychic so can sometimes get switch-ins and trap, can also function as a Choice Scarf, though not very well, has good coverage. Flaws being it's slight 4MSS and obvious frailty, but I think his positives are so good he belongs in Mid A.

Absol is very frail and has trouble switching in to anything. Most pokemon that carry Psychic that it might want to switch in on, Mesprit, Uxie, Slowking, all carry a status move, and the the former two have u-turn. It needs Pursuit + Sucker to even be usable, and thus lacks coverage. It can run a mixed set, but then it's even more frail and suffers from lack of power on the physical side. The only set I'd ever consider is Dread Plate / LO honestly. This might sound stupid but it traps Psychic types... some of them. What else does it do really.

 

[Molk]

Alright i'm going to make one update today, although i'd like some more discussion on Pokemon such as Lilligant, Absol, etc before making any changes there. It should also be taken into account that if both Lilligant and Absol move up and down respectively, that mid A rank is going to be pretty barren, which might show that we've overrated/underrated some Pokemon that might belong there (maybe maybe not, just something to think about). As for the Pokemon themselves, i'm pretty neutral on both, but if i form a solid opinion i'll be sure to post

Drapion down from top C rank --> mid C rank

Pokemon in need of more discussion:

Lilligant
Absol

 

[TROP]

. It can run a mixed set, but then it's even more frail and suffers from lack of power on the physical side. .

lol. Those fire blasts don't really need investment to KO what they need to (steelix, escavalier, and tangrowth along with hitting ferro without taking iron barbs damage). I want to know how it lacks power on the physical side when even the fire blast absol uses 252 attack with a positive attack nature, mixed absol is no weaker than any other absol set when it comes to physical attacking. And inb4 silly tbolt gimmicks, only target you are realistically hitting harder is mola who is beating Absol anyway. Psycho Cut gets the job done against Poliwrath and Qwilfish most of the time with the added bonus of hitting standard Amoonguss and the mighty Throh/Gurdurr harder. Loss of "bulk" on something with 65/60/60 defense is never going to matter because it won't take more than a hit from anything stronger than scald Mola.

 

[Laurel]

It needs investment to kill Tangrowth even with SR it's not guaranteed. You're also required to run life orb over dread plate which really whittles down your HP.

0 SpA Life Orb Absol Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 307-361 (75.99 - 89.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

124 SpA Life Orb Absol Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 354-419 (87.62 - 103.71%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

You need 124 SpA to guarantee the kill, and that is a Tangrowth with 0 SpD investment. In return, an offensive Tangrowth can KO with Leaf Storm, and a defensive one can put Absol to sleep. I also have run a ton of SpA to hit a Lilligant trying to set up since Molk hyped it to heck (as it deserves). However, yeah Fire Blast can't even OHKO Lilli LOL. It's weak w/o investment tbh imo. I understand the argument it kills what it needs but meh. I just don't love it. It's also really slow :c

 

[TROP]

It needs investment to kill Tangrowth
0 SpA Life Orb Absol Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 307-361 (75.99 - 89.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

lol serious? the Fire Blast should be used after Tangrowth absorbs any hit, not before, Night Slash+Fire Blast easily KOs tangrowth attempting to switch in, which is all it needs to do. And who cares if fire blast doesn't ohko Lilli(it will have a quiver dance boost before you even attempt to use fire blast anyway) when Sucker Punch does that 75% of the time after sr(realistically it always kills because lilli won't be above 85% most of the time), and Night Slash/Superpower come really close.

 

[Laurel]

lol serious? the Fire Blast should be used after Tangrowth absorbs any hit, not before, Night Slash+Fire Blast easily KOs tangrowth attempting to switch in, which is all it needs to do. And who cares if fire blast doesn't ohko Lilli(it will have a quiver dance boost before you even attempt to use fire blast anyway) when Sucker Punch does that 75% of the time after sr(realistically it always kills because lilli won't be above 85% most of the time), and Night Slash/Superpower come really close.

I was talking about Growth that comes in after Absol kills something. People have done it vs me and it just KOs back or sleeps and heals with regen etc

 

[atomicllamas]

Sorry Laurel, but I am going to have to disagree with you about Absol, the mixed set is absolutely potent at what it is supposed to do, lure physical walls while maintaining the ability to pick off fast threats with sucker punch. It has the strongest priority in the tier (possibly the game?), decent mixed attacking stats, and a lolsie ability. So many Steelix, Tangrowth, and Escavalier think they can switch in on Absol with impunity only to be KOed by Fire Blast (or damaged beyond repair in the case of Steelix). Then there is the fact that dread plate Absol is also really good in this meta with all of the Uxie and Slowking running around the tier. I don't think I can see something that functions simultaneously as a revenge killer and (either) a lure/wallbreaker or a trapper as any lower than Mid A. Absol should stay.

 

[Laurel]

Fine :(

Can someone explain to my why Duosion is high C? I have not seen a single one since the hail ban.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah I'd agree with everything said about the Absol matter, it's one of the best offensive Dark-types that can be pretty dangerous. Trop and atomicllamas hit the nail on the head with it imo.

Also, Molk has a post as to why Duosion is Top C.

So anyways, after using it quite a bit and even making a post about it in the np thread, i think Duosion might deserve a spot in Top C rank. The little guy is pretty damn underrated imo, and while he recieves competition from other Psychic-types such as Sigilyph, Uxie, Musharna etc, he has his own advantages that help him stand out and he's clutched me quite a few games to be honest, some of which couldnt've been won if i was using any of the other three Pokemon mentioned in its place. For one thing, Duosion, like its evolution Reuniclus in OU, makes an exceptionally good stallbreaker, having Magic Guard to ignore passive damage and setting up all over the majority of defensive Pokemon, while the cell's access to reliable recovery prevents it from ever being broken through. Not even teams with Spiritomb are safe from Duosion assuming the defensive set, as its immune to Will-O-Wisp, doesn't take much from Foul Play, and can KO with Hidden Power Fire after a few boosts. Sigilyph gives Duosion a bit of competition as a stallbreaker and Psychic-type because of its higher Speed stat and ability to effectively hold items other than Eviolite, but i feel Duosion's greater bulk, lower Speed that prevents it from being crippled nearly as much from being paralyzed as sigi, and lack of weaknesses to Rock- Electric- and Ice-type moves makes it harder to take down overall and makes it a better check to certain Pokemon such as Hitmonlee) give the cell a definite niche over the aztec bird. Actually, thinking about it a little bit, Duosion could be seen as an effective middle ground between Sigilyph and Musharna, the blob can stallbreak just as well as Sigilyph and has the coveted Magic Guard just like it, but Duosion plays much more like Musharna on the battlefield, taking hits, recovering off the damage, and eventually securing a sweep with Calm Mind. Calm Mind Duosion has advantages over both. Outside of Calm Mind, Duosion can pull off Trick Room decently well too, although it has to choose between power and significant bulk when doing so which can be a bit annoying :x. Still though, the combination of low Speed, Great Special Attack, and Magic Guard mean its certainly viable in this role (Focus Sash Trick Room+Endeavor Duosion could be effective as well for a guarenteed Trick Room+Endeavor, even without hail to finish the opponent off like on quantum of Solosis). Overall, from personal experience with Duosion, i feel that despite the competition from other Psychic-types, its probably deserving of top C rank, does anyone else have an opinion?

 

[EonX]

Yeah, Absol is p. damn frail, but the fact that its main set (All-Out Attacker) can revenge kill and clean regardless of the moves chosen is really cool. The last slot (Fire Blast and Pursuit) gives it added offensive utility depending on what your team needs more. Fire Blast ruins physical walls and lets Absol fill in as a wallbreaker while Pursuit lets it play deadly mindgames with some of the top threats in the tier (Slowking, Uxie, Mesprt, etc.) thus allowing it to be an effective offensive trapper. I've only had a chance to use it recently as I had never really had a way to fit it onto my other teams, but it works amazingly. Definitely deserving of its spot in Mid A and it should stay there.

 

[Molk]

After thinking about it for a bit and throwing the idea around on irc, does anyone else think Spiritomb might fit a bit better in mid A than top A? Of course, Spiritomb is a really good Pokemon, theres no denying that, but i think it has a few key flaws that prevent it from measuring up to threats such as Durant, Moltres, Sigilyph, etc, that might make it fit a little bit better in mid A rank with Mola, Absol, Lilli, Tang, etc. Spiritomb's offensive sets are pretty solid and give more offensive teams a good Pursuit trapper and check to Ghost, Psychic, and Fighting-type Pokemon, but in my opinion it suffers a little bit from redundant offensive coverage (Dark- and Ghost-type moves hit essentially the same things, and Spiritomb doesn't really have any fighting moves or anything outside of Hidden Power. This can be quite annoying at times, and this redundant coverage leaves Spiritomb a bit vulnerable to Steel-types such as Aggron, Durant, and Klinklang, that can come in on anything but Will-O-Wisp and pose an immediate threat. The latter two run Lum Berry and Substitute quite a bit too, respectively, meaning they can shield themselves from even Will-O-Wisp. Outside of this redundant offensive coverage, many of Spiritomb's good offensive moves are either weak (Shadow Sneak and Pursuit if the opponent stays in) or situational (Sucker Punch only works if the opponent Attacks, free switch in for the opponent if used at the wrong time) which is also really annoying, especially on say CBtomb where being locked into any of these moves can be terrible. As for the defensive sets, they're also very solid and hold quite a few Stall teams together, but even this Spiritomb varient has some flaws. First and foremost, Spiritomb lacks any method of reliable recovery outside of Pain Split and Rest, both of which have drawbacks, making it somewhat easy to wear down over the match with repeated hits/entry hazards damage. It should also be noted that while Spiritomb has no type weaknesses and3 immunities, it has a lack of important resistances to work with, making it somewhat hard for it to wall things outside of the Normal, Fighting, and Psychic-types its built to check, as it takes neutral damage from pretty much anything else and has trouble recovering off that damage before it ends up KO'd. Idk, maybe its just me, but i feel these flaws are enough to take Spiritomb out of top A rank and into mid A rank.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

I agree with Molk, but I also have a Pokemon that I don't think deserves Top A, and that's Mesprit. I know SilentVerse briefly brought this up, but I want to elaborate on my position.

Is there truly a set that is making Mesprit a metagame defining threat? Even many of the Top A Pokemon are some of the most threatening sweepers in the metagame or some of the best supporters, and when I think of Mesprit, there isn't anything that I think "jeez this variant (or two) is really hard to deal with." I mean, looking at the other Top A Pokemon, Sigilyph is perhaps the ultimate stallbreaker in the tier due to Magic Guard, Moltres requires you to have Stealth Rock up or get wrecked, Qwilfish is hands down the best defensive spiker in RU, Smeargle is (probably) the best offensive hazard user in RU, Rotom-C is in many ways the best scarfer alongside Emboar, and Durant and Gallade set a high standard for physical attackers in the tier thanks to their high power + set up moves. Mesprit doesn't really have a "focus" per se, and the only one in Top A (or even S for that matter) that has a rank attributed to having a ton of sets is Gallade and maybe Uxie, and even then there are definitely distinct sets that I think of as very good (any Swords Dance set for Gallade, Support and SubCM for Uxie). As a result of not really having one of "those sets", I don't really keep Mesprit in mind when I am teambuilding, and I don't seem to have problems with it most of the time. When I DO have a problem with Mesprit its usually the SubCM set because it dodges Sucker Punches. But here's the thing - SubCM is less threatening than Uxie's similar set due to having less bulk and less speed, resulting in bad things such as Entei being able to outspeed and OHKO it.

I also really think its versatility is really overrated. Unless you are playing with that honestly pretty bad Choice Band set, every Mesprit will have a STAB move, Thunderbolt, and/or Ice Beam. The other moves it may have are Stealth Rock, Calm Mind, U-turn, Trick, Healing Wish, or a Fire move. While this is certainly quite a field to work with, it really means Mesprit has nothing to prevent itself from being trapped by Spiritomb, it loses to Escavalier unless it is carrying HP Fire + Specs or a Fire Gem, it still can't really do anything about its speed issues unless it is holding a Scarf (which I don't think is that great of a set), gets destroyed by Sucker Punch (a very common move) unless it is using SubCM, etc. It also cannot really do much about special walls without carrying Psyshock, which really is a trait every Psychic-type can call their own. In most situations I would rather use Sigilyph as a Calm Mind user or all-out attacker thanks to its higher speed, Magic Guard, and similar coverage as well as instant recovery, while Mesprit only really has the bulk and some extra utility moves to call an advantage. And yet Sigilyph is in the same rank as Mesprit. I don't think Mesprit's occasional utility moves don't bring it enough to make it on a level equal to it.

I respect it has utility, but I think Mesprit is a Low A due to a lack of general dangerousness with one particular set, something I really think holds it back from being a threat. Mid A is the highest I'm willing to accept, but its definitely not up there with the other Top A mons imo.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

While I don't necessarily agree with Mesprit in Low A, I could see Mid A being a good fit for it. It's still capable of doing a lot for a team, it can set up Rocks or attempt a sweep with CM, and it's pretty versatile in the sense of what roles it can fill. I've been using a SubCM Mesprit to great success, and it has some good power to it and Sub allows it to dodge Pursuit from Escavalier and Spiritomb, I'd honestly say I like SubCM Mesprit better than SubCM Uxie, tbh. It's a capable offensive threat with CM or Specs, and honestly although it usually runs Psychic STAB+Ice Beam+Thunderbolt a lot, that's some pretty good coverage it's got in that moveset, and Ice Beam is imo pretty awesome to do some hefty damage to Druddigon (one of the best Pokemon in the tier). 80 Speed also isn't that terrible, so mesprit still can do pretty well.

I could agree with moving it down from Top, but I feel Mid A probably seems better than Low imo.

I agree with Spiritomb for Mid A though. A big problem with it imo is its lacking coverage; this is a problem given one thing; it lets Escavalier and Durant in for absolutely free; which is pretty bad. Also, CB Tomb has a major problem with Sucker Punch's shakiness, and many things can go wrong when using CB Sucker Punch, not to mention Shadow Sneak is weak as shit. Spiritomb has nice defenses, but it has the problem of abysmal HP (like a lot of Ghosts, such as Cofag and Dusclops in UU), and no reliable recovery wither. Mid A fits it well.

I might come back with some proposal later, for the record

 

[EonX]

Spiritomb: Yeah, I'm agreeing with Molk on this one. The biggest downfall Spiritomb has is its lack of coverage on Steel-types and the fact it has to resort to Will-O-Wisp to threaten them in any way. Otherwise, Molk and Scrafty p. much covered my thoughts on this one.

Mesprit: I really don't think Mesprit should be Low A. That said, I do believe Mid A to be a good fit for it. It has a lot of versatility and each set on-site (bar CB) is p. good with the proper support. It's coverage is really good since the only common Pokemon that easily beat it are Spiritomb and Escavalier (TBolt does a number on Durant and Uxie has no real way of touching it). Otherwise, everything gets hit decently hard, including Druddigon, Slowking, and Sceptile getting hit for super effective damage. There isn't one set that's incredibly dangerous, but there also isn't one set that is really terrible either (again, sans CB)

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Uxie can learn Thunderbolt too - the only real difference in their offensive movepools is Ice Beam. I would argue that it is better at taking on Durant than Mesprit actually, considering Uxie cannot be OHKOed by anything other than an CB X-Scissor after Stealth Rock and then use Thunder Wave to pretty much shut down Durant. Lum variants avoid this but cannot OHKO Uxie. Neither should be staying in anyway since Durant is way faster than both, but Uxie has an equal if not better chance against Durants. Uxie typically shuts down Sceptile anyway with Thunder Wave or can eventually beat it with Psyshock on CM. It can hit Druddigon hard, yeah, but Sucker Punch is extremely potent and does a number against Mesprit (about as much as you're doing back to it with Ice Beam) unless you are using SubCM. SubCM doesn't really dodge Pursuits, as its still super effective and probably backed up by a Choice Band - like I said it does dodge Sucker Punches well but SubCM on Uxie I still think is usually better due to bulkier substitutes, other than immediate power which is not as important.

Ice Beam really isn't that important tbh. Most Grasses dont like Psychic and Dragons other than Druddigon are somewhat uncommon and probably get mostly 2HKOed by Psychic other than Dragonair and Zweilous. You cover Flyers with Thunderbolt and the only Ground-types in RU are Rhydon and Golurk. It's nice coverage vs Golurk Druddigon and Lilligant but I wouldnt call Ice Beam amazing additional coverage.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Uxie still is weaker though, and needs boosts. Not arguing that it's worse, uxie is obviously the better mon since it's a hell lot bulkier. We shouldn't even be arguing about this anyway at this point, obviously Mesprit is mid A material at best, of course it can't lay claim to the best at any role but it does well at what it needs to do. So let's all stop pls :)

Speaking of Uxie, I think it should go back to Mid S. It's still imo a great support Pokemon, and its bulk and support movepool are really good. It provides great support with SR, T-Wave, etc. and can keep momentum intact with U-turn. It can also set up Sunny Day, Rain Dance, and TR, and is pretty bulky and reliable to get that job done. Thunder Wave is also fucking amazing to cripple faster threats that might threaten your team, and in general uxie is a really good support mon. It's also somewhat versatile and SubCM is pretty neat too. The only problem is it's weak and has a bad Dark weakness, but that's only keeping it from Top S imo. I think it should move back up to Mid S, feel free to disagree though.

 

[DittoCrow]

Mesprit has always been extremely underwhelming for me since its lower defenses get in the way of taking on Fighting-types. I also hate to stack Psychics because that makes me Pursuit weak, so I never really use Mesprit because I like my Psychic-type to be able to deal with these threats more reliably. It's also annoying that it doesn't even have a 50% chance to OHKO lead Druddigon with an Ice Gem-boosted Ice Beam. I also agree with Swamp-Rocket's points.

Also I want to bring up moving Zangoose to Mid B. Zangoose gets manhandled by many of the top threats. Quick Attack is pretty weak, so it can't beat most faster threats like Durant, Emboar, and Rotom-C. It's also beatable by really common threats like Kabutops, Escavalier, and Spiritomb and worn down very easily by residual damage and stuff like Alomomola + Steelix. It's hard for Zangoose to do well in this meta so it should not be anywhere near A Rank.