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I've actually tried to run sun teams without rapid spinners before. I'd hesitate to state anything conclusive because I'm not a particularly great (let alone active) battler, but it is possible. The first attempt I did of this I used two pokemon (an offensive celebi and offensive latias) with healing wish to get around the limited number of times ninetales can switch into stealth rock, while allowing me to play slightly more risky with the three sweepers I was using on that team (Venusaur, Scarftran and a Subsalac terrakion as a back-up), since healing wish could be used to mitigate a misplay from using them or to heal them back up when trying to wall break against stall teams. Clearly this team was nowhere near perfect (no priority and the blobs were never fun to deal with) but its an example nonetheless.
Otherwise, the other attempt I had was to stick to SR neutral sweepers, which there are a few for sun to use (scarftran, chlorophyll users). It's an unfortunate handicap, but not completely crippling.
Because it's been addressed and I have nothing better to do, I figured I would go through C-Rank and do some cleaning up (based off my own opinion, please post your own)
fine
fine
D-Rank to me, Azumarill isn't really destroying much anymore because Sand actually puts up stiff competition to rain nowadays, and the whole purpose of using Azumarill is to spam Choice Band Aqua Jet in the rain, and if there's no rain, there's no point in using it.
I'm more or less on the fence about Chandelure, sure it hits like a truck and that's awesome, but every time I've ever seen it be used it was too slow to actually hit anything unless you managed to scare your opponent to switch because their Celebi didn't have Earth Power. I feel like it should be D-Rank, but if we trim the list down enough without removing him that's fine.
B- Rank. Literally has the potential to stop almost anything dead in their tracks, but is crippled by having Psychic for a type. Still good enough for B- Rank.
Custap Lead for people who want offensive presence too I guess? Like Chandelure, one to cut if we only really need to keep trimming
Ditto is really any rank it wants to be, I guess it's fine in C-Rank
Fine
Fine
What does this even do someone please explain it to me I don't even really understand why this is listed at all
Literally no discussion on this besides one post, if it's going to be listed put it in D-Rank until there's some discussion about it
Fine
Fine
Last minute cut, there's almost no reason to use Jolteon in this metagame anymore besides fast Thunder spam
D-Rank, just because it has Quiver Dance doesn't mean it makes good use of it
Fine, AgilityGross is really good so B- maybe
D-Rank, it has probably the smallest niche in OU so D-Rank is perfect for it
Fine
Fine
I'm biased towards this I'd say B- but otherwise fine
D-Rank, it's been said this literally has almost no use now because everything it checked/threatened is banned now
Fine
Fine
Why is this not B-? Slowbro is a fantastic physical wall/bulky attacker. Slowbro is considered for a lot more teams now than it used to be for good reason. Solid Terrakion check.
Shaky Keldeo check that also has a good Specs set and functions well in TR. Specially based Slowbro. Solid C+ if we go to that splitting-up route.
D-Rank, Smeargle is only useful on Baton Pass chains
I love this thing so much, if only all it's moves weren't recoil-based. C+ if we go that route, if not I'd like to see people's opinions on it.
fine
D-Rank, see previous posts
Holy mother of god make this thing B Rank. If you haven't used this yet you need to. Threatens Keldeo, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Politoed, Ferrothorn, Hippowdown, Rotom-W, and Starmie. Most of its sets could be easily implemented on any team, though I personally prefer the mixed Growth set because it has a good amount of chances to set up. Please, go ladder with this thing and then you'll realize how good it is.
I've used this thing successfully in HO, it's good to pair up with a Ghost/Psychic type (Gengar and Latios were my two) and it works. Surprise factor doesn't really even matter, it's Sucker Punch is strong enough to beat Lati@s and Celebi, and Flamethrower is a nice coverage move. Also gets U-Turn and we know what U-Turn can do for you. B-.
Because it's been addressed and I have nothing better to do, I figured I would go through C-Rank and do some cleaning up (based off my own opinion, please post your own)
fine
fine
D-Rank to me, Azumarill isn't really destroying much anymore because Sand actually puts up stiff competition to rain nowadays, and the whole purpose of using Azumarill is to spam Choice Band Aqua Jet in the rain, and if there's no rain, there's no point in using it.
I'm more or less on the fence about Chandelure, sure it hits like a truck and that's awesome, but every time I've ever seen it be used it was too slow to actually hit anything unless you managed to scare your opponent to switch because their Celebi didn't have Earth Power. I feel like it should be D-Rank, but if we trim the list down enough without removing him that's fine.
B- Rank. Literally has the potential to stop almost anything dead in their tracks, but is crippled by having Psychic for a type. Still good enough for B- Rank.
Custap Lead for people who want offensive presence too I guess? Like Chandelure, one to cut if we only really need to keep trimming
Ditto is really any rank it wants to be, I guess it's fine in C-Rank
Fine
Fine
What does this even do someone please explain it to me I don't even really understand why this is listed at all
Literally no discussion on this besides one post, if it's going to be listed put it in D-Rank until there's some discussion about it
Fine
Fine
Last minute cut, there's almost no reason to use Jolteon in this metagame anymore besides fast Thunder spam
D-Rank, just because it has Quiver Dance doesn't mean it makes good use of it
Fine, AgilityGross is really good so B- maybe
D-Rank, it has probably the smallest niche in OU so D-Rank is perfect for it
Fine
Fine
I'm biased towards this I'd say B- but otherwise fine
D-Rank, it's been said this literally has almost no use now because everything it checked/threatened is banned now
Fine
Fine
Why is this not B-? Slowbro is a fantastic physical wall/bulky attacker. Slowbro is considered for a lot more teams now than it used to be for good reason. Solid Terrakion check.
Shaky Keldeo check that also has a good Specs set and functions well in TR. Specially based Slowbro. Solid C+ if we go to that splitting-up route.
D-Rank, Smeargle is only useful on Baton Pass chains
I love this thing so much, if only all it's moves weren't recoil-based. C+ if we go that route, if not I'd like to see people's opinions on it.
fine
D-Rank, see previous posts
Holy mother of god make this thing B Rank. If you haven't used this yet you need to. Threatens Keldeo, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Politoed, Ferrothorn, Hippowdown, Rotom-W, and Starmie. Most of its sets could be easily implemented on any team, though I personally prefer the mixed Growth set because it has a good amount of chances to set up. Please, go ladder with this thing and then you'll realize how good it is.
I've used this thing successfully in HO, it's good to pair up with a Ghost/Psychic type (Gengar and Latios were my two) and it works. Surprise factor doesn't really even matter, it's Sucker Punch is strong enough to beat Lati@s and Celebi, and Flamethrower is a nice coverage move. Also gets U-Turn and we know what U-Turn can do for you. B-.
Exeggutor provides an ability to beat certain things that typically give sun trouble, just like sawsbuck ( although Sawsbuck beats more, and has a way better speed tier ).. Is a great mixed attacker like Victreebel ( though Victreebel is generally better, especially due to that speed ), and is relatively bulky for a chlorophyll sweeper, like Venusaur ( though that SpD is rather lacking, and again, Venusaur is a lot faster ).
And as a slow chlorophyll sweeper with mixed capabilities and good natural physical bulk, it even finds itself having a lot of competition with tangrowth, who is slightly slower, has better mixed offensive stats, doesn't have to rely on a recoil move as their best damaging physical grass attack, and has a much better physical bulk, the only real reasons to use exeggutor over it would be low kick, a fighting resistance and the ability to outspeed scarftran without using a boosting nature.
It has a tough time distinguishing itself and especially due to that lacking speed, you'll rarely find yourself wanting to use it over something else.
I'd put it at D, though I could understand it staying at C considering it's not bad per se.. It just has a really difficult time finding a team it isn't outclassed in, and is somewhat slow for a chlorophyll sweeper in this fast paced meta, being outsped by a huge majority of common scarfers.
Empoleon mostly does that Agility + SubPetaya shit it did in 4th gen, along with Agility LO, and it can even do a SD set rather well.
I used the SD set on a more gimmicky team, which I got like #10 with on the ladder, but I found it to be my MVP, though it might seem initially outclassed to Feraligatr, it can make pokemon like Latias its set-up fodder a lot easier and the toxic immunity and other resistances are quite huge. ( Extremespeed, for example is huge here, but it also makes scarfed outrage users its bitch ). Its steel typing allows it to differentiate itself from other water types and subpetaya is just insanely powerful due to torrent. C fits it well, in my honest opinion.
I'd put Ditto at B-, but it's hard to really argue for its placement.
I'd put Slowking at B, maybe even B+, it's just a generally good rain check and TR Slowking just destroys, it's really underrated and I've often swept even sun teams with it. It has an amazing movepool and can perform well both defensively and offensively, Keldeo just gave it a new niche but it's always been amazing. I really think this is an amazing pokemon in the current metagame and a lot of my recent more succesful teams have featured it.
I don't think Quiver Dance is what put Lilligant at C, the sun utility set still works surprisingly well, mainly due to healing wish being such an amazing move, especially in sun.
It can go modest, invest in bulk and still outspeed every notable scarfer, those leaf storms are also insanely powerful and sleep powder is sleep powder.
Smeargle makes a decent HO lead too, and spore is amazing but it's low C to me, I could see it dropping to D.
I'd keep Virizion at C from my personal experience, I would've put it B in the lando-i meta but it seems fine here, however you probably have more experience with it so I'll trust your judgement.
I'd drop Durant to D because despite it being fast and a powerhouse, hustle kind of sucks and when using hone claws I feel like I'm better off using swords dance scizor/terrak depending on whether typing or speed is more important, along with that absolutely horrible special defense.
Jolteon is B- to me but I'm too tired to argue it right now haha.
Aside from that I agree with your list completely.
I'm really thinking of displaying my Garchomp for S argument, since jirachi moving to S really showed me how much of a shot chomp has at this, not sure if PK gaming can stand "x to S" arguments anymore, especially since my lol worthy fail at pushing for latias to be moved up, but I'm just posting chomp for S simply to test the waters with how much people would be opposed to this, I'll probably edit this post with more of an argument or make a new post after someone else has posted
Because it's been addressed and I have nothing better to do, I figured I would go through C-Rank and do some cleaning up (based off my own opinion, please post your own)
D-Rank to me, Azumarill isn't really destroying much anymore because Sand actually puts up stiff competition to rain nowadays, and the whole purpose of using Azumarill is to spam Choice Band Aqua Jet in the rain, and if there's no rain, there's no point in using it.
D-Rank, just because it has Quiver Dance doesn't mean it makes good use of it
Only quoting ones I disagree with. Azumarril is perfectly usable in rain, yes, but your arguement about sand is baffling. Guess we should just move down Thundurus T, Tornadus, and Toxicroak down too... (Note: Would not mind if Thun T moved down, find every set, even E Belt lure mediocre, just want more reasoning)
Lilligant on the other hand, I flat out disagree with, and am in favor of moving up if that movement comes back. Using Lilligant to Quiver Dance is not how you use Lilligant; you use its high speed, base power, and Healing Wish as a sun wallbreaker and to give a sun Sweeper ( Venusaur, Victini, or Volcarona just to name a few) a second lease on life. Life Orb Leaf Storm wrecks any non resist, no questions asked. Its very useful for winning Weather Wars, as Modest can OHKO standard ChoiceTar and SpDefTar, which are its most popular sets atm, and OHKO even Defensive Toed. Overall, while Quiver Dancing Lilligant might be mediocre, Healing Wish Lilligant is without a doubt a great addition to sun, as a fast Wallbreaker who can save a teammates life, and deserves at least C rank( C+ if C gets divided), or even B-.
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 218-257 (71.94 - 84.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Reason for HP Evs.
224+ SpA Life Orb Lilligant Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 408-484 (100.99 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In short, Lilligant's utillity to sun teams include instantly threatening opposing Weather Starters, Sleep, and Healing Wish, which can allow a sweeper a sc=econd chance, more than qualifies it for C rank...
Empoleon can run a deadly SubPetaya Agility sweeper set. It can Agility on something it forces out, Sub on something that can't hurt it, or heck even utilize its Dragon, Water, and Rock resistances. It is a potent cleaner with opposing bulky Water-types KOed/severely weakened, especially considering it walls most of them. This is not to mention its Choice Specs set, which I have found great experience with as a strong pivot. With Landorus gone, the viability of a specially defensive set has increased as well. Empoleon is a pretty good Pokemon. Water/Steel typing is awesome.
Lilligant typically utilizes its ability to outrun Scarf Terrakion with a Modest nature and overall higher Special Attack + the Special Defense boost to act as a great sweeper. It can sleep an opponent and also boosts its own Speed, making it excel as a weather-independent sweeper. It can also run a surprisingly effective Leaf Storm / Sleep Powder / Healing Wish utility set that sleeps an opponent, fires off a powerful attack (OHKOes Tyranitar in sand), and proceeds either to switch out or bring a teammate like Volcarona back from the brink of death (Healing Wish activates before hazards.
Because it's been addressed and I have nothing better to do, I figured I would go through C-Rank and do some cleaning up (based off my own opinion, please post your own)
fine
fine
D-Rank to me, Azumarill isn't really destroying much anymore because Sand actually puts up stiff competition to rain nowadays, and the whole purpose of using Azumarill is to spam Choice Band Aqua Jet in the rain, and if there's no rain, there's no point in using it.
I'm more or less on the fence about Chandelure, sure it hits like a truck and that's awesome, but every time I've ever seen it be used it was too slow to actually hit anything unless you managed to scare your opponent to switch because their Celebi didn't have Earth Power. I feel like it should be D-Rank, but if we trim the list down enough without removing him that's fine.
B- Rank. Literally has the potential to stop almost anything dead in their tracks, but is crippled by having Psychic for a type. Still good enough for B- Rank.
Custap Lead for people who want offensive presence too I guess? Like Chandelure, one to cut if we only really need to keep trimming
Ditto is really any rank it wants to be, I guess it's fine in C-Rank
Fine
Fine
What does this even do someone please explain it to me I don't even really understand why this is listed at all
Literally no discussion on this besides one post, if it's going to be listed put it in D-Rank until there's some discussion about it
Fine
Fine
Last minute cut, there's almost no reason to use Jolteon in this metagame anymore besides fast Thunder spam
D-Rank, just because it has Quiver Dance doesn't mean it makes good use of it
Fine, AgilityGross is really good so B- maybe
D-Rank, it has probably the smallest niche in OU so D-Rank is perfect for it
Fine
Fine
I'm biased towards this I'd say B- but otherwise fine
D-Rank, it's been said this literally has almost no use now because everything it checked/threatened is banned now
Fine
Fine
Why is this not B-? Slowbro is a fantastic physical wall/bulky attacker. Slowbro is considered for a lot more teams now than it used to be for good reason. Solid Terrakion check.
Shaky Keldeo check that also has a good Specs set and functions well in TR. Specially based Slowbro. Solid C+ if we go to that splitting-up route.
D-Rank, Smeargle is only useful on Baton Pass chains
I love this thing so much, if only all it's moves weren't recoil-based. C+ if we go that route, if not I'd like to see people's opinions on it.
fine
D-Rank, see previous posts
Holy mother of god make this thing B Rank. If you haven't used this yet you need to. Threatens Keldeo, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Politoed, Ferrothorn, Hippowdown, Rotom-W, and Starmie. Most of its sets could be easily implemented on any team, though I personally prefer the mixed Growth set because it has a good amount of chances to set up. Please, go ladder with this thing and then you'll realize how good it is.
I've used this thing successfully in HO, it's good to pair up with a Ghost/Psychic type (Gengar and Latios were my two) and it works. Surprise factor doesn't really even matter, it's Sucker Punch is strong enough to beat Lati@s and Celebi, and Flamethrower is a nice coverage move. Also gets U-Turn and we know what U-Turn can do for you. B-.
I strongly agree with Slowbro and Cresselia, they're amazing walls. Not much can take down a Cresselia because of it's amazing defenses, and slowbro has amazing coverage, great stats, and an amazing ability.
I disagree with Azumarill. You're right, the metagame has changed where it's less useful, but you can't deny that it's crazy powerful in rain.
Hold up, if we're discussing lilligant, AT LEAST B- imo, seriously, your own description of Lilligant already puts it at B, not only that but, Lilligant seems to be really "anti meta" right now, surviving p. much all the priority moves in the tier currently, which is huge for a chloro mon, having a way to beat them (loom and scizor meet HP fire after rocks, SR is for sash loom, and mamo just dies to leaf storm), it really poses as a threat, but not in the usual fashion . Lilligant is a threat because it can overcome and fix up the problems that most chloro sweepers have, serving as a psuedo drag mag one could say. The healing wish set is one of the best sets I've ever seen for a chloro mon, and it's overall combination of utillity, set up, and offensive movepool make it preform well under sun in this current metagame, being able to OHKO ttar in it's own weather is kind of crazy considering thisis a non fighting type special move (Not even sure if non analytic activated LO starmie kills with hydro pump ) and especially since this is coming from a pokemon that stars in another weather, lets also not forget LO QD or even Growth Lilligant, which is one of the most threatening sun sweepers in OU, not venusaur level since it's lacking sludge nuke and secondary STAB, but definatly a threat that should be prepared for, it's speed tier after sun is also no joke, try revenging with terrak, oh wait, you can't. because lilligant rolls like that
I've been using Lilligant since the dawn of the BW2 meta, so this is a good place for me to jump in. As a Growth sweeper, Lilligant is entirely outclassed by Venusaur, which has better bulk, a better movepool, and arguably better defensive typing. Quiver Dance is a nice niche option, but Lilligant's offensive movepool is basically Grass moves + Hidden Power, making Volcarona better suited to that role. The utility set is by far the best. Now, what's been said about the incredible usefulness of Leaf Storm is true - being able to smash CB-tar and severely dent the tank set in sand is no small feat. I would add that anything lacking a resistance to Grass or absurd special bulk will hate taking Leaf Storm. Hidden Power Rock deals with Salamence, Volcarona, and a load of other foes. Healing Wish is immensely useful (and one of the funniest moves in the game), allowing you to make up for misplays and missed attacks that would otherwise cripple the team, and Sleep Powder gives you much-needed breathing room on the rare occasion when it actually hits. Lilligant has a couple of major issues, though. First off, the momentum of the battle is unlikely to be on your side for very long. If you mispredict your opponent's action and use Leaf Storm at the wrong time, then you're left with a Pokemon incapable of doing much damage, which often forces you to switch out and give up momentum. Lilligant has to switch around a fair bit, so Life Orb recoil and hazard damage will wear her down fairly quickly unless you have the field more or less constantly cleared. Finally, the move that really sets Lilligant apart from other Grass-types requires her to die in order to use it, so you have to be very careful with it. Don't get me wrong, Lilligant is an excellent supporter if you play her right, but the momentum issues and lack of bulk drag her down. I'd say the absolute MAXIMUM would be B-; C+ is more appropriate.
I'm really thinking of displaying my Garchomp for S argument, since jirachi moving to S really showed me how much of a shot chomp has at this, not sure if PK gaming can stand "x to S" arguments anymore, especially since my lol worthy fail at pushing for latias to be moved up, but I'm just posting chomp for S simply to test the waters with how much people would be opposed to this, I'll probably edit this post with more of an argument or make a new post after someone else has posted
Is Garchomp S-rank? I am inclined to say no. Although it has a fantastic STAB combination that is walled by very few, it is very weak to scarfed dragons and other revenge killers as well as being priority weak (next person to mention Yache Berry gets shot). Thus it really does need substantial support to handle them. It has "only" 102 Speed, which means many Pokémon don't even need a scarf to beat him if he doesn't have one himself; it is weak to most status except paralysis, and again it's slow enough that outspeeding it is not a big problem even without para. Its bulk, while good, also isn't nearly what it used to be, and the fact that it doesn't have any reliable recovery makes this worse, especially on the support set. Finally, most of its sets need the opposing teams' Outrage sponges to be heavily weakened to sweep, and unlike Jirachi, this will require some skill whereas Jirachi can just take the 60% chance to flinch and hope for the best. Overall Garchomp is fine in A+ imo, it just can't sweep or wall teams with minimal support like the other S-ranks.
Cresselia should be in B or B- Rank. Similarly to other Pokemon in B Rank, such as Darmanitan and Sawsbuck, it is a Pokemon that should be used only in sun teams, but unlike those Pokemon, has incredible defensive potential under sun. It is the defensive equivalent to Darmanitatn, a Pokemon that is almost impossible to wall, Cresselia is a Pokemon that is almost impossible to kill with brute force. It covers most of sun's biggest defensive holes (Terrakion and Dragon-types) and in general walls or checks so many offensive Pokemon, giving to sun teams plenty of breathing space to deal with offensive or weather issues rather than defensive ones, and is one of the Pokemon that makes sun stall viable in the first place.
Is Garchomp S-rank? I am inclined to say no. Although it has a fantastic STAB combination that is walled by very few, it is very weak to scarfed dragons and other revenge killers as well as being priority weak (next person to mention Yache Berry gets shot). Thus it really does need substantial support to handle them. It has "only" 102 Speed, which means many Pokémon don't even need a scarf to beat him if he doesn't have one himself; it is weak to most status except paralysis, and again it's slow enough that outspeeding it is not a big problem even without para. Its bulk, while good, also isn't nearly what it used to be, and the fact that it doesn't have any reliable recovery makes this worse, especially on the support set. Finally, most of its sets need the opposing teams' Outrage sponges to be heavily weakened to sweep, and unlike Jirachi, this will require some skill whereas Jirachi can just take the 60% chance to flinch and hope for the best. Overall Garchomp is fine in A+ imo, it just can't sweep or wall teams with minimal support like the other S-ranks.
Its only weak to ice shard and he can mitigate that with yache berry, thats not being ''priority'' weak... He can even use haban berry to deal with scarf dragons (or he can run one himself). Theres no need for substancial support lol. ''Its bulk, while good, also isn't nearly what it used to be'', then what it used to be? Being bulkier than swampert isnt good enough for you? Why the heck would it need reliable recovery, its a offensive mon, even the support set is still offensive based. It can beat every single steel type in the tier and can use dragon claw/rain boosted aqua tail to hit ground resistors hard without locking itself in outrage, theres no need to go out of your way and add significant support to remove steel types.
Garchomp doesn't have much versatility (unlike Jirachi). It's a physical dragon with STAB on Earthquake and what used to be a blazingly fast speed stat. It can invest in bulk and use a rocky helmet to great success, but that's it when it comes to versatility. Unless you count Fire Blast for Steels. Garchomp cannot boost its speed without a Salac Berry and is 4x weak to the ever common Ice-type coverage moves used by most special attackers in the tier. The scarf set can revenge Dragonite and Volcarona (stone edge) reliably unlike most scarfers but is easily played around by more balanced teams (it barely touches stall). Rough Skin is great and Garchomp does its job admirably, but its definitely not S rank.
Jirachi isnt the embodiment of S-Rank, its just a member of it. Neither politoed or keldeo are even close to versatile, therefore theres no need for garchomp or any other future S-Rank nominee to be so.
Please quote the person that said Jirachi is the embodiment of S-Rank, because it's slightly confusing for me since your reply came just after mine.
Tyranitar is definitely as versatile, while Politoed can be a defensive wall (of sorts) with incredible support moves, a monstrous nuke with choice specs, or a unique scarfer. Keldeo is probably the least versatile in S rank, but versatility at some level is important. Even with its sparse movepool, Keldeo can run a CM set effectively to power through its counters that already aren't destroyed by specs rain boosted attacks. Its trademark scarf set still works wonders in OU, while Ebelt gives it a damage boost on many important pokemon and ridiculous coverage/staying power. Keldeo hits on both sides of the spectrum with perhaps more devastating STABS and its solid 129 SpA stat.
Garchomp on the other hand, is almost always going to be a physical attacker, and will always be either walled, or outsped and KOed by some of OU's most common pokemon. With a scarf, he becomes potent again, but still is very predictable. He can go mixed for some unpredictability, but outside of Fire Blast, there's really not much point. (nailing Hippowdon with Modest Draco Meteor is really cool on paper). Garchomp is one of the best physical attackers in the tier with Fire Blast to handle Steels, and bulk to tank CB Bullet Punch. Terrakion is a similar pokemon that gets Taunt, Rock Polish, fighting moves to handle steels and the much better speed stat. Garchomp is very good, but too slow.
Youre comparing garchomp directly to jirachi: ''Garchomp doesn't have much versatility (unlike Jirachi)'' which leads me to assume youre using jirachi versatility to be a requirement for a pokemon to be S rank and thats pretty much what the above post is about. The definition of S rank is that a pokemon is supposed to sweep or wall a signifcantly portion of the metagame or pokemons that can fill several roles really well. Garchomp definitely fits in the first definition, as he can ohko the entire metagame after a boost with hazards support and can choose what revenge kill it and what doesnt thanks to its natural sheer power that makes life orb unnecessary most of the time allowing it to run yache or haban berries. While its not a very ''versatile'' pokemon per say, its merely access to stealth rock allow it to pull off an offensive support set that very few pokemon can. This is no different than tyranitar who is either being a tank or a revenge killer, politoed who is either a wall or a wallbreaker or keldeo who is either a revenge killer or a sweeper. No pokemon other than arceus can boast jirachi sheer versatility (while being good at everything it does), its simply pointless to use it as a comparison for any S rank nominee, and again, regardless, versatility is not the be all end all requirement for S rank, its just one of them.
I still fail to see how a simple parenthesis and two words, "unlike Jirachi" is me saying that "Jirachi is the embodiment of the S rank." I would have to disagree with you on the grounds that many things do in fact wall Garchomp (skarmory and bronzong do even after an SD boost), many things outspeed and KO it, a new point, it faces stiff competition from Dragonite(versatile) and Salamence(DD, Better abilities, stronger mixed attacking), and this small point on versatility, it's purely a physical attacker with maybe Fire Blast on some sets. I think that the other S rank Pokemon don't need as much support, and are genuinely more versatile (or versatile enough) and also that you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Please post on my wall if you'd like to discuss Garchomp further.
Please quote the person that said Jirachi is the embodiment of S-Rank, because it's slightly confusing for me since your reply came just after mine.
Tyranitar is definitely as versatile, while Politoed can be a defensive wall (of sorts) with incredible support moves, a monstrous nuke with choice specs, or a unique scarfer. Keldeo is probably the least versatile in S rank, but versatility at some level is important. Even with its sparse movepool, Keldeo can run a CM set effectively to power through its counters that already aren't destroyed by specs rain boosted attacks. Its trademark scarf set still works wonders in OU, while Ebelt gives it a damage boost on many important pokemon and ridiculous coverage/staying power. Keldeo hits on both sides of the spectrum with perhaps more devastating STABS and its solid 129 SpA stat.
Garchomp on the other hand, is almost always going to be a physical attacker, and will always be either walled, or outsped and KOed by some of OU's most common pokemon. With a scarf, he becomes potent again, but still is very predictable. He can go mixed for some unpredictability, but outside of Fire Blast, there's really not much point. (nailing Hippowdon with Modest Draco Meteor is really cool on paper). Garchomp is one of the best physical attackers in the tier with Fire Blast to handle Steels, and bulk to tank CB Bullet Punch. Terrakion is a similar pokemon that gets Taunt, Rock Polish, fighting moves to handle steels and the much better speed stat. Garchomp is very good, but too slow.
Please cut the crap. If you seriously consider Politoed more versatile than Garchomp then you don't know either or both of those Pokemon good. You described Politoed's defensive set as a defensive wall with incredible support moves (Perish Song and?), its Specs set as a monstrous nuke, and its Scarf set as a unique scarfer? Then i am sure i can desrcibe Garchomp's SR set as one of the best SR setters and bulky pivots, its CB set as one of the hardest Pokemon to switch into (under rain), and its SD set as one of the more reliable, consistent, and strongest bulky sweepers in OU? Garchomp has a lot of versatility that comes from the different effective sets it can run (lead SR, SD, bulky SR, and CB), different moves on each set (SD or Fire Blast make for a world of difference on the lead set, and the bulky SR set has a ton of moves it can run on its last slot, such as Dragon Claw, Dragon Tail, and Toxic), and even different items on each set (good luck revenge killing SD Garchomp with a Yache Berry or statusing it as it tries to setup if it has Lum Berry). I am not advocating that Garchomp should be S Rank because of its versatility, in fact i am not advocating for Garchomp to be in S Rank at all, but seeing you consider Politoed as a more versatile Pokemon in disturbing.
On Rapid Spin Sun teams:
- Can some Sun teams go without a spinner? Sure. I ran a Lando-T/Hydreigon/Lilligant/Ninetales/Dragonite/Heatran team for a while. Despite having two SR weak Pokemon, it was generally able to operate even when SR was up against me. Why don't I use this team any more? Sun without Rapid Spin gets absolutely fucked by weather stall. Sun is a playstyle that's harder to operate and requires some smart switching, which stall is able to capitalize on with bulky hazard setters and spinners of their own. Each variant of weather stall has a way of screwing over Sun offense - Chansey paralyzes Venusaur and walls most special attackers, Heatran walls so many Sun regulars it's ridiculous (and Duggy's not hard to get rid of), Cresselia is just a fucking monster of a wall in general, etc. And outside of Toxic Spikes (if you have Venusaur), stall is free to set up all the hazards it wants against you and there's nothing you can do about it except "apply offensive pressure," which we all know works great against stall (hint: those Spikes are still going up).
On Lilligant:
- Lilligant is great. It's probably the Chlorophyll user that can do the most damage to Rain teams thanks to Quiver Dance letting it set up on basically any bulky Water not running Toxic or Taunt. However, Lilligant plays somewhat oddly - in Sun, it doesn't really get much time to set up and is better off just attacking on occasion, but in Rain and Sand it needs to set up to be particularly threatening. It can't do both with only four moveslots. Keep it where it is.
On Chomper:
- SHARK STARTS WITH S GARCHOMP FOR S RANK The thing that separates Garchomp from S-rank Pokemon like Jirachi or Terrakion is that every one of its sets has a very similar of checks. Jirachi can be running a multitude of different sets ranging from walls to physical Scarfers to mixed sets to CM sets, and each set has a different set of checks. Keldeo's checks are fairly few and many can be dealt with through Pursuit support, and its checks can even change depending on the set. Politoed's checks can very greatly as well - I haven't gotten SR down yet, is that Politoed offensive or defensive? Is Jellicent going to be able to take it on or will it get Poisoned? Should I bring in Latias or will I get hit with a Specs Ice Beam? Garchomp doesn't have this luxury. Garchomp is always going to be checked by Skarmory, a Pokemon not exactly as easy to take down as Latias. Garchomp is always going to be checked by Mamoswine. Garchomp also can't switch in on a lot of top metagame threats - Dragon/Ground is an excellent typing, but it gives up a couple notable resistances in Water and Grass, and it's still weak to Dragon.
I'd say Garchomp should stay where it is. I love it, but it doesn't need to be higher.
Can we all gather around and bask in the awesomeness of Kingdra? I think having it in B rank alongside Xatu and whatever is ridiculous, especially in this very late BW2 meta where it has become one of the popular methods of countering rain on weatherless teams. It has one of the best dual STABS (Dragon and Water) that are famed for their neutral coverage, an ability that puts a very popular playstyle at immediate disadvantage, a move that acts as both a weather changer (messes up Stoutland sand and sun in the process) and as a tailwind + 2.5 Mystic waters in one turn, and has reasonable bulk, resistances and acceptable offensive stats coupled with 120+ STAB nukes.
I'm gonna use a real battle as an example of how much damage it can dish out with just SR on the field and one turn of setup infront of on the tiers most popular pokemon (please don't turn this into who won or lost, this just to show Kingdra's offensive capabilities, skip to turn 11 if you must):
Anyway, nominating Heracross for B- rank and Weavile for B rank
Come on guys. ScarfMoxie Hera is not very good in my opinion as in this meta it's just too easy to wall with pokes like jellicent and landorus-t. However, Band Heracross is actually extremely powerful especially when statused (not to mention it doesn't really give a shit about status since it's not that fast). Choice Band, Guts-boosted close combat has a 55% chance to ohko PHYSICALLY DEFENSIVE SKARMORY after Stealth Rock. Also, Megahorn and Close Combat are both extremely powerful moves and not even bulky Psychic-types will like taking Band Close Combat (for example, 252 HP Latias is 2hkoed by Close Combat after stealth rock damage). Flying-types (Except for Gliscor and Landorus-T) are punished by a swift Stone Edge on the switch. Hera can also absorb Spore from something like Breloom or Amoonguss, use Sleep Talk and punish the opponent. Band Heracross needs a bit of support to work but with the right prediction it is absolutely monstrous and it's much better than stuff like Donphan. The sheer power of bandhera makes me think it deserves B- rank.
Weavile is predictable, but it is incredibly effective at what it does. It's one of the best partners to keldeo OR ANY FIGHTING-TYPE and you should always consider it when building an offensive team that contains fighting-types, or when building rain offense teams. Why? Because Weavile takes care of latias, latios, jellicent, celebi and gliscor. It can also pursuit starmie to death and check some dragons like Salamence. Low Kick and a stab move also allow it to do something else other than Pursuit and Ice Shard. Low Kick eliminates Tyranitar (a big problem for rain), Terrakion, offensive Heatran, and 2hkoes many steel-types. Weavile is frail, yes, but on offensive teams you usually let your pokemon die. This screams B rank to me.
I'm for moving Kingdra and Weavile up to A and B, respectively. In my mind, A is for metagame staples, which Kingdra is quickly becoming, as well as very very dangerous Pokemon who need a little boost to properly skullfuck the opposition. Rain Dance LO 3 Attacks is up there for best cleaner in the game. Specs Kingdra is Rain Offense's worst nightmare, and only Blissey, Chansey, and SpDef Ferrothorn can reliably wall it on Rain Stall. B is for niche Pokemon that fulfill a widely-needed function and who are VERY good at doing so (Pursuit trapper, revenge killer, etc.). Weavile wraps MULTIPLE niches into an efficient little package and, as an Offense player myself, is one of the worst possible things to see on the the opposing team for Offense teams. No, stall doesn't care about him (unless he's doing some crazy Pursuit trap shenanigans), but that's why he's B and not A.
I really just don't see enough Heracross to make a judgment on him, however.
On Chomper:
- SHARK STARTS WITH S GARCHOMP FOR S RANK The thing that separates Garchomp from S-rank Pokemon like Jirachi or Terrakion is that every one of its sets has a very similar of checks. Jirachi can be running a multitude of different sets ranging from walls to physical Scarfers to mixed sets to CM sets, and each set has a different set of checks. Keldeo's checks are fairly few and many can be dealt with through Pursuit support, and its checks can even change depending on the set. Politoed's checks can very greatly as well - I haven't gotten SR down yet, is that Politoed offensive or defensive? Is Jellicent going to be able to take it on or will it get Poisoned? Should I bring in Latias or will I get hit with a Specs Ice Beam? Garchomp doesn't have this luxury. Garchomp is always going to be checked by Skarmory, a Pokemon not exactly as easy to take down as Latias. Garchomp is always going to be checked by Mamoswine. Garchomp also can't switch in on a lot of top metagame threats - Dragon/Ground is an excellent typing, but it gives up a couple notable resistances in Water and Grass, and it's still weak to Dragon.
I'd say Garchomp should stay where it is. I love it, but it doesn't need to be higher.
''Is this garchomp sub sd or does it have fire blast/aqua tail?'' ''Is this garchomp holding a yache, haban or salac berry?'' Its the exactly same thing with the other S rankers. Youre never sure what fourth move and what item chomp is using until its too late.
