Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Arcticblast]

The thing is, a lot of Garchomp's checks don't change wildly depending on that last move. Skarmory can still switch in on Garchomp and can Whirlwind it out, and if it has Fire Blast it can (hopefully) get a chance to come back in later. I'll admit I forgot about Yache Berry though :p if we're talking about offensive checks though, Keldeo and Latios can't really switch in on Garchomp, but Garchomp sure as hell isn't staying in on either of them unless it's Scarfed. Hippowdon and Lando-T can still check Garchomp to the extent that they can take a hit (Hippo takes 78.09 - 92.14% from +2 LO Aqua Tail, and Lando-T can take on non-LO variants) and retaliate with a powerful STAB Earthquake or even Ice Fang / HP Ice, respectively. Ferrothorn still gives any Garchomp issues even if it's carrying a Fire move.

 

[Tesung]

Alright let's be honest has anyone ever been swept by a garchomp? With sd it will gt a kill if it finds times to set up, maybe 2 if it has the right berry or whatever. It is too slow for offense, and stall has hippo or skarm or IMO they should have a scarcer like rachi that can rk. With that being said I like the sr plus ad set as it can set up rocks and be a threat. As for cs, i used to use it and it while it is nice for surprise kills, it sux to be locked into outrage or eq early game, so I was basically scared to attack until late game. Btw to whoever said thundy t isn't good, try bulky double dance and thank me later

 

[Gary]

Alright let's be honest has anyone ever been swept by a garchomp? With sd it will gt a kill if it finds times to set up, maybe 2 if it has the right berry or whatever. It is too slow for offense, and stall has hippo or skarm or IMO they should have a scarcer like rachi that can rk. With that being said I like the sr plus ad set as it can set up rocks and be a threat. As for cs, i used to use it and it while it is nice for surprise kills, it sux to be locked into outrage or eq early game, so I was basically scared to attack until late game. Btw to whoever said thundy t isn't good, try bulky double dance and thank me later

Too slow? In what world? It's one of the best offensive sweepers in the metagame because of its speed, and on top of that it's also one of the best users of Choice Scarf because.....you know what forget it.

 

[PDC]

Garchomp too slow for offense? When did Garchomp become slow? Garchomp may not always sweep every time, but no sweeper has a 100% guaranteed sweep rate, ever. No matter what no sweeper can sweep 100% of the time. While I don't think I personally have ever been 6-0d by a Garchomp, it has definitely cleaned me up late game before, and has been a very dangerous Pokemon to use. Garchomp is pretty solid against stall as well, it is actually a pretty great breaker and can get past Hippowdon and Skarmory much easier than you think. Garchomp has all the right moves, stats, and bulk. It is an amazing sweeper, solid bulky utility Pokemon with Rocky Helmet or Leftovers, and can act as a powerhouse breaker with Choice Band. While I don't exactly think Chomp is S Rank, I don't think Jirachi is either.

 

[Sturdynips]

In regard to Weavile, I have used it a lot over the past few months and I can safely say it is a great revenge killer/late game cleaner. There are many times when, on the face of the team preview, it can hit everything on the opponent's team super-effectively. Weavile was brought up not too long ago and everyone knows the huge amount of pokemon in OU it KOs/traps. There are matches I'll play where Weavile single-handedly wins the match in a lategame clean up, or by trapping key members on the opponent's side. However, there are also matches where it is a massive liability. And i can't stress this enough. It doesn't have the firepower against stall teams, and its hazard weakness holds it back. But the main drawback in my opinion is that it attracts extremely dangerous pokemon, namely Scizor and Keldeo. If my opponent has a Scizor waiting in the wings and my Weavile has just RK'd something/trapped something, they can freely smack something on my team with a CB u-turn and get the momentum, or set up an SD and potentially sweep or at worst severely weaken my team. Keldeo is similar in that it can switch in very easily, and then it OHKOs or 2HKOs my team with specs pump. Other dangerous offensive counters/check to Weavile include Jirachi, Conkeldurr and Toxicroak - things you do not want to give free turns to. Defensively, Weavile is also fodder for Hippo and Skarm to set up hazards and phase, While Forretress and Tentacruel can set up spikes/tspikes and spin for free.

Before anyone says that Weavile can SD and break through these pokemon, I would say that the moment you give Weavile SD in OU, it completely loses it's niche and should be in C or D rank. Its speedy trapping and revenge killing got it to B-, and the fact that it can so easily be a strong liability means it should stay there. Weavile is very prediction-reliant, and often if you predict wrong vs an opponent's Scizor, Keldeo, Croak or Conk, you don't just lose momentum, you lose the game.


edit: C&C placeholder
BW RU: Basculin
XY OU: Salamence | Mamoswine | Gastrodon | Moltres | Scolipede (offensive set) | Rotom-W (specially defensive set) | Starmie (Reflect Type) | Keldeo (Choice Scarf)
XY UU: Toxicroak | Entei | Starmie
XY RU: Jellicent

 

[Schpoonman]

In regard to Weavile, I have used it a lot over the past few months and I can safely say it is a great revenge killer/late game cleaner. There are many times when, on the face of the team preview, it can hit everything on the opponent's team super-effectively. Weavile was brought up not too long ago and everyone knows the huge amount of pokemon in OU it KOs/traps. There are matches I'll play where Weavile single-handedly wins the match in a lategame clean up, or by trapping key members on the opponent's side. However, there are also matches where it is a massive liability. And i can't stress this enough. It doesn't have the firepower against stall teams, and its hazard weakness holds it back. But the main drawback in my opinion is that it attracts extremely dangerous pokemon, namely Scizor and Keldeo. If my opponent has a Scizor waiting in the wings and my Weavile has just RK'd something/trapped something, they can freely smack something on my team with a CB u-turn and get the momentum, or set up an SD and potentially sweep or at worst severely weaken my team. Keldeo is similar in that it can switch in very easily, and then it OHKOs or 2HKOs my team with specs pump. Other dangerous offensive counters/check to Weavile include Jirachi, Conkeldurr and Toxicroak - things you do not want to give free turns to. Defensively, Weavile is also fodder for Hippo and Skarm to set up hazards and phase, While Forretress and Tentacruel can set up spikes/tspikes and spin for free.

Before anyone says that Weavile can SD and break through these pokemon, I would say that the moment you give Weavile SD in OU, it completely loses it's niche and should be in C or D rank. Its speedy trapping and revenge killing got it to B-, and the fact that it can so easily be a strong liability means it should stay there. Weavile is very prediction-reliant, and often if you predict wrong vs an opponent's Scizor, Keldeo, Croak or Conk, you don't just lose momentum, you lose the game.

Fucking Latios is a liability if your opponent has Tyranitar and Jirachi, it doesn't stop him from being one of the best special attackers in the tier. Weavile relies on his Super Effective STAB coverage to do his job as a revenge killer, so naturally anything that resists both is going to run train on him, much less two of the best offensive Pokemon in the game. If Dragonite tries to Dragon Dance in Keldeo's face and gets slapped with Icy Wind, does that mean that Dragonite is suddenly any less of an effective sweeper? Weavile is the ultimate niche Pokemon and trying to use him outside that niche is a fault on the player, not the Pokemon. Weavile's niche is to revenge kill and trap and basically fuck up opposing offense teams, and half the physical attackers in the tier have trouble with Hippo and Skarmory so it's not fair to damn Weavile when he's no different than Garchomp (fun fact: Weavile does more with LO Ice Punch than Garchomp does with LO Outrage to BOTH of them). Weavile for B.

 

[alexwolf]

On Chomper:
- SHARK STARTS WITH S GARCHOMP FOR S RANK The thing that separates Garchomp from S-rank Pokemon like Jirachi or Terrakion is that every one of its sets has a very similar of checks. Jirachi can be running a multitude of different sets ranging from walls to physical Scarfers to mixed sets to CM sets, and each set has a different set of checks. Keldeo's checks are fairly few and many can be dealt with through Pursuit support, and its checks can even change depending on the set. Politoed's checks can very greatly as well - I haven't gotten SR down yet, is that Politoed offensive or defensive? Is Jellicent going to be able to take it on or will it get Poisoned? Should I bring in Latias or will I get hit with a Specs Ice Beam? Garchomp doesn't have this luxury. Garchomp is always going to be checked by Skarmory, a Pokemon not exactly as easy to take down as Latias. Garchomp is always going to be checked by Mamoswine. Garchomp also can't switch in on a lot of top metagame threats - Dragon/Ground is an excellent typing, but it gives up a couple notable resistances in Water and Grass, and it's still weak to Dragon.

I'd say Garchomp should stay where it is. I love it, but it doesn't need to be higher.

This is not true. Jirachi is universally checked by SpD Hippowdon (save for Grass Knot on lure sets) and SpD Scizor, while Celebi, Blissey, and Chansey counter any Politoed set. Similarly, Terrakion is checked/countered by Landorus-T, defensive Gliscor, Toxicroak, and defensive Hippowdon. Garchomp has no more universal checks and counters than the other Pokemon in S Rank.

 

[Spinda]

This is not true. Jirachi is universally checked by SpD Hippowdon (save for Grass Knot on lure sets) and SpD Scizor, while Celebi, Blissey, and Chansey counter any Politoed set. Similarly, Terrakion is checked/countered by Landorus-T, defensive Gliscor, Toxicroak, and defensive Hippowdon. Garchomp has no more universal checks and counters than the other Pokemon in S Rank.

Standard sub Jirachi, superachi and lure jirachi all beat SpD Scizor.. Terrakion isn't even S-Rank so I don't know why we keep mentioning it

 

[magic123]

Garchomp has no more universal checks and counters than the other Pokemon in S Rank.

Oh really?Not only does Garchomp have checks,it also has it's fair share of counters.The definition of a check is something that can reliably revenge kill it or switch in once or twice,but not always guaranteed to beat it.The definition of a counter is something that switches in at full health,and even if the pokemon it is countering set up on it with an attack-boosting move as it switches in,it is still able to take one hit and beat it.

Checks for Garchomp include most Pokemon that are faster than it.Starmie can OHKO it,and can live a Scarf Earthquake or Outrage if it needs to,same goes for Keldeo which can even live hits from LO sets.Terrakion,Ape,and Gengar can all 2HKO and if Garchomp has been weakened,simply KO.Latis can destroy Garchomp with their Dragon STAB,but they can't switch in all willy-nilly.Scizor and Breloom can take one hit and proceed to 2HKO with their priorities while Mamoswine can just OHKO(bar YacheChomp).

Now on to counters.The two main candidates are Skarmory and Hippowdon.Skarmory can almost always reliably take on Garchomp as it can take even a Banded Fire Fang.It has to watch out for Fire Blast though.Hippo has even greater physical bulk than Skarm and doesn't even need resistances to counter Garchomp.From full health,it can take just about anything,even at +2 LO,and then retaliate with Ice Fang.Let the calcs speak for themselves:

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 189-223 (45 - 53.09%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 328-386 (78.09 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Water Gem Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 378-446 (90 - 106.19%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

See?Even a +2 Water Gem Aqua Tail can't always KO.Like everything except Genesect,Garchomp has it's fairshare of checks and counters,like any other Dragon,so I think it deserves to stay where it is.

EDIT:It looks like I completely forgot about Lando-t.Oh well,you get the point,it is as effective as Hippo.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

A counter is supposed to wall and force you out, not get 2hkoed...

 

[Spinda]

So you take like 80% from a +2 hit, retaliate with ice fang and do like 65% and what now?

 

[Spinda]

Plenty of people run ice fang actually lol

 

[gvmgvm40]

Something to consider is that Hippowdon never runs Ice Fang and even if Hippowdon has Ice Fang, it still has a chance of dying next turn due to Rough Skin.

Wait what

| Earthquake 93.894% |
| Slack Off 90.557% |
| Stealth Rock 76.382% |
| Whirlwind 59.237% |
| Ice Fang 30.039% |
| Toxic 14.446% |
| Roar 7.518% |
| Protect 6.787% |
| Stone Edge 6.437% |
| Other 14.703%

Ice Fang is the fifth most popular move on Hippo last month, run by %30 of Hippos.

For comparison, Aqua Tail is used on %10 of Garchomp and Grass Knot less than %3.9 on Jirachi.

 

[G-Von]

So you take like 80% from a +2 hit, retaliate with ice fang and do like 65% and what now?

Well what happens next is...Hippo has a 31.25% chance to faint after Rough Skin damage.

 

[alexwolf]

Standard sub Jirachi, superachi and lure jirachi all beat SpD Scizor.. Terrakion isn't even S-Rank so I don't know why we keep mentioning it

Which is why i said checked and not countered...

 

[Spinda]

Which is why i said checked and not countered...

"Jirachi can be running a multitude of different sets ranging from walls to physical Scarfers to mixed sets to CM sets, and each set has a different set of checks."

We established that it was beaten by quite a lot of common sets, and therefore isn't a universal check.. So you really aren't proving anything.

I don't agree that Garchomp has less universal checks than most S-Ranks, but that argument didn't really make sense to me.

 

[alexwolf]

"Jirachi can be running a multitude of different sets ranging from walls to physical Scarfers to mixed sets to CM sets, and each set has a different set of checks."

We established that it was beaten by quite a lot of common sets, and therefore isn't a universal check.. So you really aren't proving anything.

I don't agree that Garchomp has less universal checks than most S-Ranks, but that argument didn't really make sense to me.

Superachi is not a common set and SubCM sets are defeated by SpD Scizor. Sub Jirachi with Fire Punch is not common at all as well. SpD Jirachi, SubCM Jirachi, Scarf Jirachi, and lure Jirachi without HP Fire are the most common sets and all those are beaten by SpD Scizor. which is why SpD is a good universal check to Jirachi.

 

[Spinda]

Superachi is not a common set and SubCM sets are defeated by SpD Scizor. Sub Jirachi with Fire Punch is not common at all as well. SpD Jirachi, SubCM Jirachi, Scarf Jirachi, and lure Jirachi without HP Fire are the most common sets and all those are beaten by SpD Scizor. which is why SpD is a good universal check to Jirachi.

Fire Punch 20.529% ( for reference: Calm Mind 16.723% )

Also, I RARELY see lure jirachi without hp fire or fire punch..
and it's like the most common rachi set right now

 

[Spinda]

"there's nothing you can do about it except "apply offensive pressure," which we all know works great against stall (hint: those Spikes are still going up)."

I used to play no spinner sun a lot ( got top 10 on the smogon PO server with it back when Deoxys-D teams ran rampant ), and let me just say.. No, those spikes aren't going up. Ninetales alone pressures the majority of hazard setters and fast taunters are no spinner sun staples, which is also why it doesn't get destroyed by custapskarm teams, no spin sun is incredibly prediction reliant, but it's also really fun and it can be used to great success.

 

[G-Von]

So alakazam is regarded as a support pokemon, since it neither sweeps or walls anything consistently
is this right ?

I'm assuming you're trolling but just in case you aren't, it's rank is A+ based on being an offensive threat. It has like 3 safe switch-ins, one being in UU, one being at the bottom of OU, and the other being Jirachi. It's speed allows it to outpace a ton of pokemon and thanks to Magic Guard it can keep its sash intact without worry.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I don't really see how that's trolling. The majority of Alakazam run Focus Sash, a set designed to be a revenge killer for offensive teams to cover a wide variety of opposing offensive Pokemon. Such a set could be considered a support Pokemon of sorts, and I would actually agree that a big reason for Alakazam's rank is due that form of offensive support.

 

[Soul Fly]

More like a super specialized niche only Alakazam can run with the unique combination of his ability and uber speed stat coupled with a solid movepool but capable of A rank (unlike other niches) because he has near 100% success rate with it. You know it's there, you just know it'll come in on a revenge and fuck it shit up, but you're helpless to hinder it in any way. It can just go back out unscathed and come back to harass you, no matter what the field conditions are.

 

[Arcticblast]

"there's nothing you can do about it except "apply offensive pressure," which we all know works great against stall (hint: those Spikes are still going up)."

I used to play no spinner sun a lot ( got top 10 on the smogon PO server with it back when Deoxys-D teams ran rampant ), and let me just say.. No, those spikes aren't going up. Ninetales alone pressures the majority of hazard setters and fast taunters are no spinner sun staples, which is also why it doesn't get destroyed by custapskarm teams, no spin sun is incredibly prediction reliant, but it's also really fun and it can be used to great success.

Yeah, all Spikes setters besides Omastar or Qwilfish are neutral or worse to Sun, but that doesn't change the fact that Sun is often forced to concede a layer of hazards if something doesn't have the tools to dispose of a specific hazard setter on the field at that very instant. Using the team of Tales / Lando / Hydreigon / Lilligant / Heatran / Dragonite I brought up earlier, Landorus-T and Lilligant (needs Ice Beam next gen y/y) both didn't have a way to touch many common Spikes users outside of Sleep Powder, and Outrage is an easy move to set Spikes against. There are ways to alleviate this through teambuilding and smart play, but the truth is that Spikes can still go up against even the most offensive of Sun teams.

Also, Scolipede and Froslass are niche but pro Spikes setters B)

 

[Tesung]

Too slow? In what world? It's one of the best offensive sweepers in the metagame because of its speed, and on top of that it's also one of the best users of Choice Scarf because.....you know what forget it.

I regret the bad scarfer thing, cuz that is more personal presence. And while it is fast, it has no way of boosting. Any team with a starmie keldeo lati jolteon hp ice gengar alakazam and any almost any scarfer wont have too big of chomp problems, while other sweeper, like voclarona breloom dnite etc can beat their checks if they boost far enough or with the right move/item, while garchomp has no way around that speed. And while none of those can switch in safely, they can all easily revenge. Now I'm not saying that garchomp is a bad mon, just that it is a wallbreaker, not a sweeper. Now, if it got rock polish, damn double dance chomp would be a threat

 

[Halcyon.]

I regret the bad scarfer thing, cuz that is more personal presence. And while it is fast, it has no way of boosting. Any team with a starmie keldeo lati jolteon hp ice gengar alakazam and any almost any scarfer wont have too big of chomp problems, while other sweeper, like voclarona breloom dnite etc can beat their checks if they boost far enough or with the right move/item, while garchomp has no way around that speed. And while none of those can switch in safely, they can all easily revenge. Now I'm not saying that garchomp is a bad mon, just that it is a wallbreaker, not a sweeper. Now, if it got rock polish, damn double dance chomp would be a threat

Actually, one of the most common items on Garchomp, Yache Berry, lets it beat all of the Pokémon you mentioned bar Latios and Alakazam (though it CAN break its sash, which is huge). None of those Pokémon can OHKO with an Ice-type move when Garchomp has Yache Berry, making it a fantastic lure for those mons. As for Latios and Latias, the former is forced to use Draco Meteor, which means it gives an easy switch to something like Tyranitar (a common partner to Garchomp). All things considered, I think you're greatly underestimating what is by far the most consistently great Dragon in OU.