Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

[ryan]

Alomomola gets 2HKO'd by Sawk. Not a wall.
Metang gets 2HKO'd by Sawk. Not a wall.
Regirock gets 2HKO'd by Sawk. Not a wall.
Weezing gets 2HKO'd by Sawk. Not a wall.
Klang gets 2HKO'd by Sawk. Not a wall.
Bastiodon gets OHKO'd by Sawk. Not a wall.

etc. etc. etc.

Sawk's fantastic, but it doesn't provide the same utility other offensive Pokemon in S-rank do. Scolipede sets Spikes. Jynx puts shit to sleep and Tricks its checks. Musharna does a shitton. Samurott has priority to bypass offensive Pokemon to make up for its mediocre Speed. It can also prevent hazards like Sawk can thanks to Taunt and its great coverage. Kangaskhan is pretty much the catch-all revenge-killer that can beat almost every offensive Pokemon without locking into something because of Choice Scarf. Meanwhile, Sawk pretty much just hits really hard. That's great and all, but offensive teams rarely give it a chance to strike because of their faster Pokemon. Defensive teams carry at least two checks that keep it from posing too huge of a threat. Any good balanced team will carry a Fighting check. Sawk is great, but it's not nearly as good as any of the S-rank Pokemon.

 

[Infernis]

Why does everyone keep saying that Sawk can 2HKO Alomomola? I don't think I've seen an alomomola in months that doesn't run wish+protect, which very easily lets Alomomola survive. Calculators are neat, but you also have to look at moves. Weezing has a sick will-o-wisp that can stop most physical attackers dead on a switch in. (And then the pain split starts!) Metang, Klang, Regirock, and Bastiodon (particularly metang and klang due to lack of leftovers recovery) aren't really walls to my eyes, they're tanks. You can't just plop your Metang down in front of something and wait for it to die like one does with Tangela or Alomomola. Maybe I have a wildly different understanding of what a wall is, but I don't think any of those four really count as walls with my understanding of the term.

Also, Sawk absolutely has niches asides from just spamming Close Combat with a band or scarf.

Sawk (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Taunt

My current favorite, it blows stuff up and stops utility moves. Boom, no more will-o-wisp or Wish.

Sawk (M) @ Salac Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Reversal
- Bulk Up/Close Combat
- Endure
- Ice Punch

A gimmicky but fairly successful set if you can avoid passive damage. Bulk Up if you can take a hit, then Endure. Spam 200 power fighting moves at +1 speed until the cows come home. Priority screws it up, but you get to go fast and hit hard.

Sawk (M) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Stone Edge/Taunt

Trick your enemy into thinking you're banded/scarfed through clever use of a move that should KO regardless of banding, whatevs. Are they throwing a Swellow in to revenge kill after your Earthquake? Punch it out of the sky! It requires some prediction to use, but of course it does. Pokemon, yo.

Sawk (M) @ Fist Plate
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake/Ice Punch
- Substitute
- Toxic

Oh hey guys subtoxic works for blue people too.

Sawk (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Substitute
- Close Combat
- Earthquake/Ice Punch

Yes I've used it and yes it's wonderful when it works. It won't stop Musharna, but it can put a real damper on physical revenge killers.

etc etc

I've used like 3 different movesets for Sawk in the past week, and all of them have been great. I don't understand why Sawk is viewed as limited to Choice Band in this metagame when there are other pretty great sets out there. I guess one could argue that the banded set takes the most advantage of Sawk's strengths, but there's no reason you can't run something creative to fill out a new niche.

EDIT: I vote for Low-S still, obviously. Also for reasons that I didn't list, but will remain secret for a few days at least. S Rank is getting miiiighty thin. :3

 

[Celever]

"Weezing has a sick very inaccurate Will-O-Wisp that can stop most physical attackers dead if you somehow predict their switch-in".
Oh wait, why are you switching Sawk into Will-O-Wisp?

Also wait wait wait. Bastiodon isn't a wall? Well Bastiodon isn't killing anything OFFENSIVELY, so D rank please Ras, maybe E.

There is an issue with this; I can't tell where you guys think he should be. Obviously Infernis wants Low-S and zeb wants High-A, but everyone else is just making flaws in Infernis' arguments making Sawk look better?

Furthermore, for comparison's sake, let's look at another Top A Pokemon: Charizard.
Charizard has fewer checks and counters than Sawk, and he's stuck in Top A, no one's nominating him up. Yes, he has a Stealth Rock weakness, but there are lots of anti-leads in this tier and even stuff like Natu seeing use. He can demolish many teams; do you want Charizard in Top S? No, there are too many flaws. Do you want Sawk in Top S? No, there are too many flaws.

Also this was waaaay earlier but you mentioned Scolipede can't hurt Swellow:
252 Atk Life Orb Scolipede Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 250-294 (95.78 - 112.64%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO

Megahorn 2HKOs anyway, as does Aqua Tail.

 

[Punchshroom]

Celever what you even going on about

S-Rank Pokemon offer both good support and good offense at the same time. In the case of Sawk, he can smack bitches around really hard (save Musharna), but overall his main job is to stop SR leads. He is pretty good at this, but Taunt Samurott or Serperior can accomplish similiar roles so it's not like he doesn't receive competition. Heck, Kanga is bar none the best at what she does, yet she is sitting in Low-S. Sawk may lay claim to beating up physical walls (not named Musharna) just by spamming his main move for the most part, but he needs to be Choice-locked to do so or he will simply be stalled out (CC's defense drops certainly don't help), so Sawk also faces competition in terms of wallbreaking when compared to vicious wallbreakers like Samurott and Eelektross. Primeape does a better job at outright sweeping due to hitting the crucial speed and U-turn.

So Sawk faces competition in hazard lead stopping, sweeping and even wallbreaking. The fact that he can combine these 3 roles well lands him a spot in Top-A, but yeah Sawk has seen better days when the speed tier wasn't bumped up.

 

[Infernis]

Oh wait, why are you switching Sawk into Will-O-Wisp?

So you do get my point.

@Celever

I'm not sure why the ability of the player to predict or not makes will-o-wisp a worse option, by the by. If you're doing it right you're doing it right. The accuracy does kinda blow though. Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're getting a little vociferous about that Bastiodon, Celever. It seems to me like you are sarcastically remarking that I think Bastiodon should be D or E rank because it doesn't beat things offensively, when that isn't the case and I haven't given you any reason to be so snide. Bastiodon is a wonderful tank, a great phazer, a decent rocker, and a bunch of other things. I just said it isn't a wall by my definition of a wall. I never said that Bastiodon was useless.

Birds and Bugs tangent

Scolipede and Swellow aren't extraordinarily important to the topic at hand, but Swellow is way faster than Scolipede and unless 'Pede is sashed there shouldn't be a problem, what with Brave Bird and all. Swellow doesn't even have to be burned for that. And if Pede's sashed it doesn't have a life orb.

I can definitely see why Sawk isn't as dominant as he was in ages past, but I still find him a step above most of the metagame. Opinions are opinions I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I guess the real question here is what makes a Pokemon S-Rank instead of just A? I mean, obviously Scolipede and Jynx get it because they're ridiculous in this metagame, but what separates Kangaskhan and Sawk from Charizard and Golurk? Also, I'd like to nominate Charizard for Low-S because it can do anything. As an independent subject from the current discussion, that is, and we can wait to talk about it until after Sawk if you folks like. Charizard is the bee's knees. I find a lot of parallels with Samurott in that predicting the wrong Charizard set can get you wrecked. It can be running a swords dance set, specs, scarf, bellyzard, power herb, sun-blaster, or even a banded set I ran into yesterday. On the other hand, no priority and a massive stealth rock weakness. But if you can keep rocks off the field or switch in only when you mean business, Charizard can kick major ass.

 

[ryan]

The only set you listed that I would even consider using is the Taunt one. All of the rest of them are either outclassed or in general mediocre.

Alomomola is 2HKO'd by CB Sawk's Close Combat. The standard Smogon spread:
252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 104 HP/252 Def Alomomola (+Def) : 52.52% - 61.77% (2 hits to KO)

And max HP / max Def:
252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Alomomola (+Def) : 48.88% - 57.49% (2-3 hits to KO)

The second takes hazards to kill, but Stealth Rock alone will often cover it, even after Protect. Stealth Rock with one layer of Spikes always does it.

You also have to take into account that you're calling all of those Sawk sets niches that it has. But they aren't niche at all. A lot of Pokemon can run a Taunt anti-lead set, including Misdreavus, Serperior, Samurott, etc. Literally every Pokemon relevant in NU can run a Sub Toxic set. Braviary can run Sub Bulk Up, and it does it significantly better than Sawk does. Expert Belt is also done by plenty of offensive Pokemon, and Sawk really needs the power of Choice Band to be relevant. The amount of things that can check non-Choiced Sawk are even greater.

S-rank getting thin isn't inherently a bad thing; if anything, it means we're even better at pinpointing the top threats in the metagame. Don't be opposed to change for the sake of change.

I also don't mind discussion for Charizard for Low-S. It's a very legitimate nomination; Charizard can do a lot of things really well, and very few Pokemon can wall any of its sets. On top of that, the things that can wall special sets (however few they might be) are boned by SD. Not sure if Charizard is Low-S worthy or not, but I think a case can very well be made for it.

 

[Punchshroom]

@Celever

Bastiodon should be D or E rank

Sarcasm.

I guess the real question here is what makes a Pokemon S-Rank instead of just A? I mean, obviously Scolipede and Jynx get it because they're ridiculous in this metagame, but what separates Kangaskhan and Sawk from Charizard and Golurk? Also, I'd like to nominate Charizard for Low-S because it can do anything. As an independent subject from the current discussion, that is, and we can wait to talk about it until after Sawk if you folks like. Charizard is the bee's knees. I find a lot of parallels with Samurott in that predicting the wrong Charizard set can get you wrecked. It can be running a swords dance set, specs, scarf, bellyzard, power herb, sun-blaster, or even a banded set I ran into yesterday. On the other hand, no priority and a massive stealth rock weakness. But if you can keep rocks off the field or switch in only when you mean business, Charizard can kick major ass.

I've already made a little comment on what I feel makes an S-Rank poke, so I'll just list down my opinions.

Jynx - Fast offensive Ice-type (which NU hasn't really gotten close to since Rotom-F), Lovely Kiss, and killer coverage, and Nasty Plot makes her an offensive threat. From a defensive standpoint, Dry Skin forced every Water-type in the tier to adapt.

Scolipede - Strongest Bug move in the tier, Swords Dance, and good coverage are what makes Scolipede dangerous offensively. It has support options in Spikes and Baton Pass to contribute passively.

Musharna - Most reliable pivot in the tier. Calm Mind or Trick Room allow Musharna to fight back.

Samurott - Mixed wallbreaking capabilities that are super dangerous. It also makes a decent Fire and Ice switch-in, something frailer Water-types like Floatzel and Simipour cannot do, and can "support" with Aqua Jet.

Kangaskhan - Normal-type attacker that can plow through Ghosts. Fake Out + Sucker Punch check a majority of sweepers.

If I were to put Sawk up there, his supportive capabilities would be the deterrence of SR leads, but should SR get up at any point, BAM strike one off Sawk, so all he's got going left is to just hit everything.

Charizard's wallbreaking abilities are arguably just as potent as Samurott's, and it has the potential to sweep. The problem with Charizard is that you want SR off the field or Charizard would find itself stuck between a....ah screw it you know what I mean. This takes a point off the supportive category, in fact the inverse occurs: it requires support from its teammates to primarily function. I mean sure, Charizard can switch into Will-o-Wisp and Ground moves...but so can Swellow :P. Its sole problem of needing SR gone is the main factor keeping Charizard from S. I know Charizard can still wreck shit even if SR is on the field, but the likes of Jynx and Scolipede can do more due to them not being so stunted in terms of switching and can be saved later to wreak more havoc.

 

[Aasgier]

Charizard, especially Specs Charizard, isn't meant to survive anyway. It is meant to wreck shit in the few turns it is alive, including the toughest special walls.

I don't have much experience with Zard outside of Solar Power Choice Specs in the Sun, which is the "I-can-OHKO-everything" variant and outside of Munchlax impossible to wall.

 

[Raseri]

Charizard for S-rank is something I would definitely support. It is comparable to Samurott in a sense, the Stealth Rock weakness isn't even that big of a deal. The combination of Speed and power is something very few other threats have, and to top it off Charizard is moderately bulky. Low S is probably fine for it, it is just really fucking good right now.

Sawk for Top A isn't something I'm opposed too. Sawk fills a really important role in the metagame, and restricts teambuilding just as much as any S-rank threat, but it easier to take advantage of due to its predictability. Low S or Top A are both valid places for it, depending on how important you view its role to be.

 

[Shuckleking87]

I think Eelektross for Top A isn't a bad idea. With the spike stacking metagame, it is great that eelektross does not have to worry about it, plus it can deal good damage to scolipede and ok damage to roselia with flamethrower, and garbodor with t-bolt. A slow voltswitch is also preferable for bringing some of the very strong but frail pokes such as jynx and charizard. Its coverage moves are also fantastic, giga drain to mess with S.R. leads, flamethrower for grass and bug types, and superpower for normal pink blobs (it can really handle most common walls but musharna, which takes a decent amount from tbolt, especially if its specs). It also has good enough bulk to live a couple hits. Yeah it's slow (which can be a blessing), but it provides a threat that is really hard to counter.

 

[watashi]

the charizard set i use the most is specs and it's by far the best imo since it's really hard to counter it in the current metagame. you can't just slap on something like musharna like you would in order to handle sawk since most of charizard's counters suck or don't exist. the best you can do is check it with regirock or seismitoad or something like that but you risk being predicted and ko'ed by the correct coverage move. it's fast too which means it will have plenty of chances to come in and fire off attacks. stealth rocks can also work in charizard's advantage because they allow it to get into blaze range easily and do crazy stuff like ohko musharna and raseri. support for s rank

 

[Magcargo]

Sawk should drop to High A-Rank
Sawk is still really good in the metagame, but it unfortunately has several major flaws that keep it out of S-Rank. Like many people have stated, Sawk's speed is very low in the current NU metagame, as it outsped by common threats such as Jynx, Primeape, and Charizard. It also lacks dimension like other S-Rankers, as its only good set is the CB set (and the Taunt Fighting Gem set I guess). Sawk is very easy to exploit when choice locked, as common threats like Golurk and misdreavus can force it out and thus losing your momentum. Sawk is also really frail, meaning that it will almost always be 2HKOed by any decently powerful STAB attack. Sawk is still really good, which is why it should be no lower than high A-rank.

Charizard should stay in High A-Rank
Charizard is another good mon that unfortunately should not move up. This is primarily due to its 4x Stealth Rock weakness, which means that Charizard will only be able to switch in two time max (assuming that Charizard hasn't used Roost). After switching in once with Stealth Rock in play, Charizard will be OHKOed by threats such as Choice Scarf Jynx, Choice Scarf Haunter, and LO Kangaskhan's double priority attacks. Charizard also fears Water-types, as apart from Carracosta and Gorebyss, most of them can take an HP Grass and OHKO with their STAB attacks. Charizard is very close to S-Rank however, as it is extremely versatile and really only has two problems, which is why it is High A-Rank

Metang should move up to Mid A-Rank
Metang is absolutely amazing in the current metagame, primarily due to its ability to check common threats like Kangaskhan, Exegguttor, and Jynx, mostly due to its amazing typing. Metang also has some pretty good bulk, allowing it to take relatively powerful attacks like Golem's EQ and Samurrott's Hydro Pump. Despite its rather unimpressive base 75 Attack, Metang can run an offensive set pretty well, as Meteor Mash has enough power to 2HKO threats like Scolipede after SR, and Bullet Punch's priority is useful for picking off jynx and miscellaneous weakened threats. the Defensive set are also pretty useful on stall teams, as it functions as pretty decent check to LO Jynx (which most stall teams struggle with. Overall I believe that Metang's advantages in the current metagame make it a worthy addition to Mid A-Rank.

EDIT: Need to learn how to proofread.

 

[Lasagne]

charizard is really cool and as flcl said specs is like the best basically. it kills everything with fire blast and just cant be stopped. there are 0 hard counters imo except maybe solrock lunatone which kinda sucks so you dont use it anyway. you can try to check it with some mons but they just die to something or other. stunfisk works quite well imo, it survived specs blaze charizards flamethrower with no hp or spD investment so thats cool. power herb zard is also a coool lure for stuff like momo, toad, the previously mentioned stunfisk etc. also sdzard breaks through a bunch of special walls that it otherwise has trouble with (lickilicky, stunfisk again o3o). scarf is probably my 2nd fav set after specs cos it outspeeds pretty much every relevant mon except scarf tauros and scarf electabuzz, which is awesome. rocks are actually helpful to it despite what many people think cos it gets down to blaze faster so it can zoom zoom zoom and kill kill kill more efficiently. subroost is yet another cool set that hits hard and doesnt die very much. sr isnt minded on this set cos u can just roost off the damage. basically zard is a really cool versatile mon which is rly good however u want to use it. i was actually about to nom it yesterday before i saw infernis already did so w/e. zard for low s

 

[Blast]

The cool thing about Zard is that it can actually turn its greatest weakness--Stealth Rock--into one of its strengths, helping it to get into Blaze range quicker. And obviously Zard is super fucking powerful, and there really isn't much that can switch in repeatedly. But then again, you still have to take into account how easily Zard is forced out through the threat of revenge killing, and if it's taken SR damage and a round of LO recoil you'll die next switch-in. As This means you often have to spend a turn Roosting if you want Zard to stick around for more than one kill. As for Specs sets, you can't even Roost so you only get two switch-ins at best to wreck shit. Still, there's no doubting that Zard is fast, strong, and near guaranteed to get a kill every switch-in. Personally I think Top-A is fine for it, but Low-S is cool too.

Also I'm gonna have to support Top-A for Sawk. Sawk fulfills a specific task and does it well, but the problem is how easy it is to stop him from doing it. It's really hard to stop the other S-Rankers from doing their job; i.e. it's hard to stop Scolipede from setting up Spikes, Jynx from crippling something, Mushy from walling/pivoting, Otter from breaking down walls. Sawk doesn't have that same type of feel to him; he has several defined counters that completely stop him in his tracks no matter what. This is mainly due to how predictable he is; other S-Rankers generally have a bunch of sets they can all pull off effectively, but Sawk is really just stuck with CB. I guess it's sort of a similar case with Kanga, but the fact that Kanga can almost single-handedly stop a playstyle on its own makes it worthy of S-Rank. Sawk mostly just sits there firing off Close Combats till he dies, which really doesn't make an S-Rank mon imo.

One last nomination I'm gonna make is Dragonair to Top-C, or maybe even Low-B. I started using it a while ago and it's really really good, since it can set up all day against stall (except Bastiodon I guess) and is a really good check to a ton of things in this meta. It's super bulky and its Dragon typing lets it switch in on a whole slew of things and start setting up. It sets up super easy and even has ExtremeSpeed which I think OHKOes Jynx after +2 and rocks (too lazy to run calcs). ExtremeSpeed is another super cool thing about Dragonair since it lets it revenge kill low-health threats even without a boost, and it doesn't really need any coverage moves because of the lack of Steels. It has a ton of utility, and it also counters Eel and Zard which is a feat in itself.

 

[Lasagne]

ok so ive been using one really underrated pokemon that isnt even on the rankings yet fsr: glalie. admittedly it was on a team of monferno/kingler/stunfisk/flare boost drifblim (which is actually rly cool)/exploud, but it did some work. i used ice beam/ice shard/explosion/spikes and it was fun as fuck. it was especially fun beating Soulgazer with it cos it owns. seriously though, as we know from jynx ice stab is pretty awesome in this meta, and jynx is pretty much the only mon that uses it effectively. glalie is a pretty reliable spikes user with 80/80/80 defenses which is average, it can usually take a hit, and does suprisingly well against jynx. ice beam kills all those pesky ground/flying/grass mons running around which is cool, and ice shard is awesome prio that saved my butt a few times (zard on a rampage in blaze range for example). against soulgazer i used ice beam vs his serperior which did ~50% after he used calm mind on that same turn (pretty good damage tbh serp is bulky), then ice sharded for the kill, while otherwise serp could have killed my whole team (cos its shit). glalie also outspeeds and ohkos stuff like golurk and the everpresent mighty gabite with ice beam which is cool. i almost always get up a couple of layers of spikes per game with it, which is usually all i need. i often dont use it as a lead, but bring it in on stuff like jynx locked into ice beam and serperior in general, as it cant 2hko with hp rock. explosion is really cool for when ur about to die and want to take something down with you; either that or u can set up another layer of spikes/ko something with ice beam (obviously do that > explosion if u can so u can live). Raseri also used endure+custap which is p cool. it lets u live a hit from something then kill it while it would usually ohko u, but i personally prefer ice shard just cos its cool. its pretty much down to personal preference but both are nice to have. the ice stab on a hazard setter is just really useful and helps you beat loads of common leads that might give u trouble if u have scolipede or garbodor.

it does have downfalls obviously. cant switch in too much due to rocks and spikes, and doesnt have any recovery, so it wont be surviving long. good thing thats not what its meant to do, but still. it also has a /really/ shitty typing in ice since it only resists itself (which is cool for jynx and ice punch golurk and stuff), so that kinda sucks. obviously it has kinda shitty stats, with 80 across the board, but that provides enough bulk to live like one hit, and a decent attack/spA stat so it can kill stuff ok. also not bad speed, same speed as gardevoir :o so it outspeeds quite a lot of stuff. still pretty shit stats though. dies to fire/rock/steel/fighting/something else maybe idr so that sucks cos it dies easily to every fighting type and zard and rapidash and simisear i guess. basically shit stats, annoying weaknesses, and a few other downfalls i cant think of now but definitely exist. oh yeah its mostly outclassed by stuff like scolipede garbodor and roselia, but it has ice stab to differentiate itself and its just rly cool, and thats what d rank is for. since its such a useful mon to have, but is outclassed for the most part, im gonna propose Top D (only caps in this whole nom nice)

 

[Punchshroom]

Looking at it, perhaps I've been a bit hard on Charizard. SR still sucks for it, but it is still one of the hardest Pokemon to counter or even check in all of NU. In terms of defensive synergy Charizard doesn't provide all that much, but it is comparatively bulky for a sweeper. Almost all of its sets are pretty devastating too: Specs, Life Orb (my personal favorite due to being able to switch moves and Roost to prevent Sucker Punch and LO stall), Scarf, Swords Dance, Sunny Day and even obscure things like Belly Drum and Tailwind that can occasionally f**k your shit up sideways. My biggest gripe about Charizard being S is that it can't really adopt a bulky role like Moltres can in RU, but hey it could still be Low-S.

One last nomination I'm gonna make is Dragonair to Top-C, or maybe even Low-B. I started using it a while ago and it's really really good, since it can set up all day against stall (except Bastiodon I guess) and is a really good check to a ton of things in this meta. It's super bulky and its Dragon typing lets it switch in on a whole slew of things and start setting up. It sets up super easy and even has ExtremeSpeed which I think OHKOes Jynx after +2 and rocks (too lazy to run calcs). ExtremeSpeed is another super cool thing about Dragonair since it lets it revenge kill low-health threats even without a boost, and it doesn't really need any coverage moves because of the lack of Steels. It has a ton of utility, and it also counters Eel and Zard which is a feat in itself.

Dragonair was a nomination I made a while back, which sadly wasn't acknowledged very much. I still stand by for Dragonair in Top-C though (not Low-B alongside Fraxure because the latter is kinda better). It does the bulky boosting Dragon thing way better than piddly Altaria because Dragonair can Rest and continue boosting while Altaria's Heal Bell PP would be quickly drained out. Extreemespeed is also another cool thing to have on (offensive) Nair since it can pressure Scarf Jynx with +1, who otherwise just slaughters Fraxure with the same boost so even offensive Nair is not completely outclassed by Fraxure (for the most part :( )....yeah Nair should just stick to bulky boosting, which it does well at, arguably just as good if not better than Scraggy because bulky Nair can still perform against offensive teams if it can setup on Eelektross or Charizard or something.

252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 99-117 (30.36 - 35.88%) -- 39.67% chance to 3HKO

Yeah, 2 of the most difficult things to counter in the tier? Dragonair outright sets up in their faces. I'd like to see Fraxure try anything of the sort without risking crippling/irreparable damage.

 

[tennisace]

To be perfectly honest, if S-rank was all one tier instead of split up into 3, I'd be more apt to say that Sawk belonged in top-A. However, Sawk fits both the current definition of S-rank (doing 1 thing extremely well, i.e. the CB set which lets it 2hko basically every Physical wall bar Musharna/Misdreavus) and the power level of low-S, which is "a little bit better than top A-rank mons but worse than what other tiers would consider S-rank". Also, FLCL alluded to the fact that just having Sawk on your team will make some players leery about leading with their SR setter, which can very easily play to your advantage. Not many other Pokemon have the ability to change a lead matchup just by being present on a team (vs lower ranked ladder opponents obviously just lead with Sawk). This also applies to Charizard, which has 4 sets that I would consider very good to excellent depending on team matchup (Life Orb, Specs, SD, Scarf in that order), and though it has that big SR weakness, it can turn it into an advantage or heal it off. Sawk should stay in Low-S, Charizard should join him.

other noms like eel -> top a and metang -> mid a are valid but i always feel like we get off topic in this thread once it builds up a little bit of steam and start talking about like 3 c rank mons at once and forget to come to a resolution about actually important mons in the metagame

 

[Aasgier]

Yeah, 2 of the most difficult things to counter in the tier? Dragonair outright sets up in their faces. I'd like to see Fraxure try anything of the sort without risking crippling/irreparable damage.

Charizard commonly carries Dragon Pulse, which 2HKO's regardless even with a LO instead of Specs.
Life Orb Charizard Dragon Pulse vs. 244 HP / 208+ SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 143-169 (44.13 - 52.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I still agree that it should be ranked higher though. Dragonair is pretty good, provided it is used well. Mid-C or Top-C looks fine.

I believe Charizard and Zard belong in the same tier. Both have several sets they use well, but Zard is frailer but also has nothing that counters all its sets. Either Charizard up to Low-S, or Sawk down to Top-A. Charizard has so much raw power it isn't even funny, and same goes for Sawk, but they fail to do anything else bar breaking shit (and they are pretty damn good at it).

Metang is really good and awesome. I advocated for it to be low-S before, but while that was shot down, it deserves more than being Low-A. Agreed with Mid-A.

Glalie could get a mention in D-rank, I suppose, considering it HAS a niche with Ice Shard and Spikes. It is pretty cool, and deserves some usage. However, is this niche worth a mention. The more I think about it, the less I feel sure about it, much like I felt before about Glalie when I considered its place in the tier when Scolipede dropped.

 

[Punchshroom]

Charizard commonly carries Dragon Pulse, which 2HKO's regardless even with a LO instead of Specs.

The only Charizard that would even consider Dragon Pulse is the Specs variant, and usually its moveset is Fire Blast / Air Slash / HP Grass / Focus Blast. Most Charizards carrying Dragon Pulse would eventually miss the coverage offered by the latter 2 moves against Waters and special walls respectively, rather than just trying to take out Dragons which are much rarer.

 

[Aasgier]

The only Charizard that would even consider Dragon Pulse is the Specs variant, and usually its moveset is Fire Blast / Air Slash / HP Grass / Focus Blast. Most Charizards carrying Dragon Pulse would eventually miss the coverage offered by the latter 2 moves against Waters and special walls respectively, rather than just trying to take out Dragons which are much rarer.

True, but Focus Blast's accuracy turns people (including me) off.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

tbh I think Sawk should stay in Top-A. It does its CB set really well admittedly, since it 2HKOes pretty much every wall not named Musharna with the appropriate move and threatens Sturdy SR leads, but as others before me have said, Sawk is reliant on Choice sets to actually do damage, and while it 2HKOes mola, it actually loses to it because of Regenerator and pivoting. It's a really one-dimensional Pokemon because apart from Choice sets, the only other options I'll ever use are sets with Taunt and Fist Plate / Fight Gem, and even then it loses a lot of power. Crucially, it has less than average Speed and in this meta, tons of things can outspeed it and threaten to KO.

I agree with Weezing dropping down to Low B, it's really inferior imo to most walls, stacks weaknesses with Poison-types while being unable to absorb Toxic Spikes nor utilize entry hazards, is setup fodder without Haze, has no reliable recovery, and faces lots of competition from the more versatile and faster Misdreavus.

I'd also like to see Glalie moving to D because it certainly has a niche in Taunt + Spikes + Explosion as a suicide lead for super offensive teams that can't afford to lose momentum (and it's definitely better than things like Girafarig). I think Top D is a little too kind to it because it seriously loses to almost every common lead except... idk Piloswine and Rose? It falls to Rock Blast through Sash, but then again Ice Beam can 2HKO Golem so it's possible to defeat Golem before getting up Spikes against the next opponent! It can get up around 2 layers a game and if you predict right, can also prevent your opponents hazards while booming for big damage and bringing someone in safely. For this reason, I think Mid D-rank is a good place to put it

 

[ryan]

Dragon Pulse is pretty horrible on Charizard. You're carrying a non-STAB 90 Base Power move that hits like three things in NU for super effective damage, and Charizard is already really cramped for moves as it is. As it stands, you have to choose four moves among Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Air Slash, Focus Blast, and Hidden Power Grass. Throw Dragon Pulse into the mix, and you're even worse off. Fire Blast is pretty much a given, as is Air Slash. So you have to choose what's least important out of hitting Rock-types with HP Grass, hitting pretty much every special wall in the tier with Focus Blast, or having a more accurate Fire STAB to spam. Dragon Pulse is pretty awful, and I don't think it has any place on any Charizard set in NU.

I honestly think that Metang is fine where it is in Low A-rank, but I'm not that opposed to it moving up either. It is a really effective Pokemon right now, and it's not hard to find defensive partners for it because of its asston of resistances and its only two weaknesses.

Glalie is fine in Top D-rank. Over other Spikes setters, it has Ice STAB, Explosion, Taunt, and Endure (which can be used with Custap Berry to guarantee at least one and often two layers of Spikes).

Dragonair for Top C-rank is cool. RestTalk DD is really nice, and it's one of the few decent checks to Charizard out there.

And finally Eelektross for Top A-rank is a really good idea. It's still one of the best wallbreakers out there, and it's a menace to stall because of this. Outside of that, it's a really strong slow pivot, which is a godsend for offensive teams. No, it doesn't take hits the best, but its special set with Leftovers>Choice Specs makes up for the middling bulk. Plus, immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes makes it hard to wear down with passive damage.

 

[Aasgier]

Dragon Pulse is pretty horrible on Charizard. You're carrying a non-STAB 90 Base Power move that hits like three things in NU for super effective damage, and Charizard is already really cramped for moves as it is. As it stands, you have to choose four moves among Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Air Slash, Focus Blast, and Hidden Power Grass. Throw Dragon Pulse into the mix, and you're even worse off. Fire Blast is pretty much a given, as is Air Slash. So you have to choose what's least important out of hitting Rock-types with HP Grass, hitting pretty much every special wall in the tier with Focus Blast, or having a more accurate Fire STAB to spam. Dragon Pulse is pretty awful, and I don't think it has any place on any Charizard set in NU.

I run Solar Power Charizard in the Sun, and on that set, Air Slash is useless due to the fact Fire Blast and even Flamethrower hits everything harder (even resists) than Air Slash can. SolarBeam however becomes a given.
That leaves two empty moveslots. Focus Blast only really hits Munchlax harder than any of its other moves, and it is inaccurate as heck (only a 3HKO on average, just like Fire Blast, while Dragon Pulse nails Dragonair, Altaria and SDef Zweilous (Fraxure gets OHKO'd by Fire Blast even with Eviolite).

Outside of Sun, it becomes a different matter, since Fire Blast loses its obscene power, increasing the need for Focus Blast (you can't rely on SolarBeam or Fire Blast to OHKO Lickilicky and Regirock anymore).

And on the Ladder, Dragon Pulse is everywhere on Zard.

Agreed about Eelektross though.

 

[ryan]

I'd still run Air Slash on a sun set because of Flying's great neutral coverage. Sure, Dragon also has good neutral coverage, but Air Slash is stronger than Dragon Pulse against most of the Pokemon in NU, and it comes with a nice 30% chance to beat anything it 2HKOs thanks to the flinch chance that Dragon Pulse doesn't come with. I still wouldn't run Dragon Pulse on sun sets, but Focus Blast isn't as necessary because Solarbeam nails Rock-types while Fire Blast does more in the sun to anything you'd want to hit with Focus Blast except for Munchlax, which is pretty rare and very easy to wear down throughout the match. So even on a sun set, I'd still rather run Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Air Slash / Solarbeam. You and the rest of the ladder can run Dragon Pulse all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's an incredibly situational move that hits hardly anything. Plus, only about 1/3rd of the ladder runs Dragon Pulse. Take into account the amount of those that are choiced, and Dragonair remains a good Charizard check, even against the ladder.

 

[Aasgier]

Yes, but Altaria can easily wall an entire Sun team, since Sun teams rarely carry Ice-type moves, if you do NOT carry Dragon Pulse. Ofcourse, the SR setter can smash Altaria with Rock-type STAB, but it will most likely have died while setting SR as well as Sun.

Also, things that Air Slash 2HKO's are 2HKO'd by Fire Blast as well. There is nothing that Air Slash hits that Fire Blast doesn't, assuming Solar Power and Sun are both active. I mean, why would you use Air Slash? Outside of Flash Fire I can't really think of a reason (Choice Specs Solar Power means a clean OHKO/2HKO on most Fire-types anyway), as there is no Water-type that can avoid the 2HKO from Fire Blast/SolarBeam.