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Pokémon Venusaur
- Thread starter azureleaf17
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I'm probably missing something but doesn't Venusaur have almost 1.25x the defensive stats of celebi? Another thing to keep in mind is that Venusaur isn't as vulnerable to priority and pursuit. I dunno if that matters or not, though.
Because there's two common sand inducers (Tyranitar and Hippowdon), sand could arguably become the most dominant weather condition because nothing stops you from having both on the same team. The only other weather with two auto users is sun, and Charizard-Y really isn't going to be used to set up sun for teammates very much with a 4x weakness to Rocks and competition for a teamslot from other Mega Evolutions and Charizard-X in particular.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
I could definitely see Mega Venusaur working as a physical tank on Stall teams. It's probably the single best Mega Lucario counter in existence because it takes barely more than half from any boosted attack in Lucario's arsenal. It additionally walls things like Keldeo, Tail Glow Manaphy and Nasty Plot Thundurus-I, who can all potentially pose a threat to Stall.
I disagree with the notion that it's outclassed by Celebi. Being neutral, rather than weak, to Pursuit is a pretty huge deal, especially when dealing with teams that rely on Tyranitar or Scizor trapping all of Keldeo's counters. Celebi also struggles with the threats I mentioned above, along with a quite a few others like Azumarill and Greninja, because of its weakness to Ice and Dark, and lack of resistance to Fairy.
To be honest, Mega Venusaur seems like a blanket Water-type counter. The only ones that even stand a chance against it are Psyshock Starmie/Slowbro and Bounce Gyarados.
I disagree with the notion that it's outclassed by Celebi. Being neutral, rather than weak, to Pursuit is a pretty huge deal, especially when dealing with teams that rely on Tyranitar or Scizor trapping all of Keldeo's counters. Celebi also struggles with the threats I mentioned above, along with a quite a few others like Azumarill and Greninja, because of its weakness to Ice and Dark, and lack of resistance to Fairy.
To be honest, Mega Venusaur seems like a blanket Water-type counter. The only ones that even stand a chance against it are Psyshock Starmie/Slowbro and Bounce Gyarados.
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Why are you all using Petal Blizzard for Venusaur's physical attack when it got and probably still gets Power Whip as an egg move?
I think it'll be interesting to see what exact role Venusaur finds this gen. It can't really do sun sweeper with the weather nerf, however it might become a general tank as Venusaur-M. I'm excited to see exactly what it does, as it can counter Fairies not called Gardevoir quite well with the poison typing, and can wreck Greninja with its STAB moves if it isn't KO'd by an Ice Beam.
Tyranitar and Hippowdon will still be everywhere, but their mere presence in a battle doesn't mean sand will be permanently in play like in Gen 4; they only trigger a few turns of it each time they hit the field. That's why its presence as a weather will decrease.
It hasn't been confirmed that it gets Power Whip, but the moment it has been it'll go up as an option — Mega Venusaur is definitely beefy enough to afford the occasional miss in exchange for more power.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Sand lasts for 5 turns, and megasaur smashes both weather starters of it, while ttar smashes celebi completely, lets stop making celebi look like a fucking god for no reason. btw celebi was not the best defensive mon in gen 5, while it aas good, lots of unideal weaknesses and trap weakness made it's typing not the best, while 100 base stats in both defenses made it's defensive tanking very hard to do in some situations. that and momentum (uturn) when your trying to wall something isn't too note worthy.
Latias was probably the best wall in gen V anyhow.
Latias was probably the best wall in gen V anyhow.
considering that power-whip was made an egg move for bulba that can be obtained from the previous generation there is no reason for it be unconfirmed because i doubt they would remove it from its passable egg moves and even if they did come pokebank time we could just transfer power-whip bulbasaur from 5th gen
All right, thank you for the information. OP has been updated!
I honestly think that Venusaur isn't going to be used as much as in Gen V since even there sun was the hardest weather to use because of the SR weakness on Ninetales and now a Drought poke will need to be switching in and out a lot more than before. Mega Venusaur it really is a nice tank, but Celebi has almost the same bulk because of the extra HP. yup, the neutrality to Bug, Dark, Poison, Fire and Ice it's also nice but i don't see it as Uber. So, probably Venusaur it's going to be OU just because of it's typing and similar bulk to Celebi with the people selecting the more convenient for the team between the two of them.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Venusaur is going to be Uber; even in the past Generation, Venusaur was the best sun sweeper in the game (bar MAYBE Ho-oh and Reshiram), and it was still solidly OU. I agree, though, that Mega Venusaur is definitely going to have its moments on teams as a truly bulky 'mon with few weaknesses and immunity to Spore, powders, and Toxic.
Been testing a Mega Physical Defensive set with the Leech Seed/Synthesis/Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb, and its kinda mixed results. The healing is great and he walls a decent amount of pokes but when the big gun'd physical attackers come he can't handle it unless its resisted damage. Opposing Venusaurs and Roserade (or grass/posion in general) counters this set hard btw. One thing for sure tho, even with no Special Defense he was countering Fairies pretty well. That and soaking Toxic/Toxic Spikes and Laughing at Powder users. Might test a Curse set but I think full Special Defense is the way to go.
Anyone think of a physical tank that could have good synergy with Mega Venusaur? Aegislash has been somewhat decent but he's more a bulky sweeper/pivot poke than a tank.
Reminds me of Registeel back in Gen IV being a good partner for Venusaur's Special Defense set, checking its Psychic and Flying threats.
Anyone think of a physical tank that could have good synergy with Mega Venusaur? Aegislash has been somewhat decent but he's more a bulky sweeper/pivot poke than a tank.
Reminds me of Registeel back in Gen IV being a good partner for Venusaur's Special Defense set, checking its Psychic and Flying threats.
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***Mega Venusaur vs. Celebi***
Celebi
Stats: 100 HP / 100 Atk / 100 Def / 100 SpAtk / 100 SpDef / 100 Spd
Weaknesses: 4x Bug, Fire, Ice, Dark, Ghost, Poison, Flying
Resistances: Grass, Fighting, Ground, Water, Electric, Psychic
Other Advantages: Use of Item, Natural Cure, Doesn't use Mega Evolution spot (if this is a problem)
Mega Venusaur
Stats: 80 HP / 100 Atk / 123 Def / 122 SpAtk / 120SpDef / 80 Spe
Weaknesses: Psychic, Flying
Resistances: 4x Grass, Fighting, Water, Electric, Fairy
Other Advantages: Immune to Poison, Removes Toxic Spikes from the field, Can still use Chlorophyll ability in the Sun before Mega Evolving
Now, using the laws of mathematics, let's cancel out all the common attributes in order to get right to the advantages and disadvantages of each Pokemon vis-a-vis the other.
***Comparison***
Celebi (compared to Mega Venusaur)
Stats: +20 HP, -23 Def, -22 SpAtk, -20 SpDef, +20 Spd
Weaknesses: 4x Bug, Fire, Ice, Dark, Ghost, Poison
Resistances: Ground, Psychic
Other Advantages: Use of Item, Natural Cure, Doesn't use Mega Evolution spot (if this is a problem)
Mega Venusaur
Stats: -20 HP, +23 Def, +22 SpAtk, +20 SpDef, -20 Spd
Weaknesses: Psychic
Resistances: Fairy
Other Advantages: Immune to Poison, Removes Toxic Spikes from the field, Can still use Chlorophyll ability in the Sun before Mega Evolving
---
Obviously, this doesn't include the X-factor: Movepool.
Celebi is more diverse and unpredictable with what it can do. Heal Bell, U-turn, Nasty Plot, Calm Mind, Baton Pass, and Earth Power are some of the excellent moves Celebi can use that Venusaur does not have access to.
Venusaur does have one nifty potential trick up its sleeve though - the ever useful Sleep Powder. It's also more viable as a physical attacker with access to Petal Blizzard and Earthquake.
***Final Thoughts***
If you're already using another Mega Evolution on your team, then Celebi is obviously the way to go. Celebi is also going to be the far more diverse and unpredictable Pokemon. It's one of the best Utility Pokemon out there.
Where Mega Venusaur absolutely shines above Celebi is with its lack of weaknesses. Having only two 2x weaknesses to relatively uncommon attacking types (Psychic and Flying) is incredible. In comparison, Celebi's SEVEN weakesses, including a brutal 4x weakness to Bug (which is a huge problem in a world where people spam U-turn), Dark (making it Pursuit weak), and other very common attacking types (Ice/Fire) along with Ghost, Poison and Flying really hinder Celebi's viability as a Wall. Both Pokemon have an extremely useful set of Resistances, but only Mega Venusaur fully realizes the potential of this by combining it with few Weaknesses.
Ultimately Celebi shines as a Utility Pokemon, while Mega Venusaur shines as a Great Wall.
The analysis is that Celebi and Mega Venusaur both have unique advantages, and both should prove very useful in OU play on the right team.
Celebi
Stats: 100 HP / 100 Atk / 100 Def / 100 SpAtk / 100 SpDef / 100 Spd
Weaknesses: 4x Bug, Fire, Ice, Dark, Ghost, Poison, Flying
Resistances: Grass, Fighting, Ground, Water, Electric, Psychic
Other Advantages: Use of Item, Natural Cure, Doesn't use Mega Evolution spot (if this is a problem)
Mega Venusaur
Stats: 80 HP / 100 Atk / 123 Def / 122 SpAtk / 120SpDef / 80 Spe
Weaknesses: Psychic, Flying
Resistances: 4x Grass, Fighting, Water, Electric, Fairy
Other Advantages: Immune to Poison, Removes Toxic Spikes from the field, Can still use Chlorophyll ability in the Sun before Mega Evolving
Now, using the laws of mathematics, let's cancel out all the common attributes in order to get right to the advantages and disadvantages of each Pokemon vis-a-vis the other.
***Comparison***
Celebi (compared to Mega Venusaur)
Stats: +20 HP, -23 Def, -22 SpAtk, -20 SpDef, +20 Spd
Weaknesses: 4x Bug, Fire, Ice, Dark, Ghost, Poison
Resistances: Ground, Psychic
Other Advantages: Use of Item, Natural Cure, Doesn't use Mega Evolution spot (if this is a problem)
Mega Venusaur
Stats: -20 HP, +23 Def, +22 SpAtk, +20 SpDef, -20 Spd
Weaknesses: Psychic
Resistances: Fairy
Other Advantages: Immune to Poison, Removes Toxic Spikes from the field, Can still use Chlorophyll ability in the Sun before Mega Evolving
---
Obviously, this doesn't include the X-factor: Movepool.
Celebi is more diverse and unpredictable with what it can do. Heal Bell, U-turn, Nasty Plot, Calm Mind, Baton Pass, and Earth Power are some of the excellent moves Celebi can use that Venusaur does not have access to.
Venusaur does have one nifty potential trick up its sleeve though - the ever useful Sleep Powder. It's also more viable as a physical attacker with access to Petal Blizzard and Earthquake.
***Final Thoughts***
If you're already using another Mega Evolution on your team, then Celebi is obviously the way to go. Celebi is also going to be the far more diverse and unpredictable Pokemon. It's one of the best Utility Pokemon out there.
Where Mega Venusaur absolutely shines above Celebi is with its lack of weaknesses. Having only two 2x weaknesses to relatively uncommon attacking types (Psychic and Flying) is incredible. In comparison, Celebi's SEVEN weakesses, including a brutal 4x weakness to Bug (which is a huge problem in a world where people spam U-turn), Dark (making it Pursuit weak), and other very common attacking types (Ice/Fire) along with Ghost, Poison and Flying really hinder Celebi's viability as a Wall. Both Pokemon have an extremely useful set of Resistances, but only Mega Venusaur fully realizes the potential of this by combining it with few Weaknesses.
Ultimately Celebi shines as a Utility Pokemon, while Mega Venusaur shines as a Great Wall.
The analysis is that Celebi and Mega Venusaur both have unique advantages, and both should prove very useful in OU play on the right team.
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Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of Synthesis. I think I'd rather have a coverage move. I think Giga Drain and Leech Seed gives enough recovery personally. Sludge Bomb is good coverage for the grass types that are immune to leech seed, though you're kinda stuck sleep powdering/stalling out steel types.
Though I can't think of too many steel types that can do a whole lot to Venusaur... maybe protect or sub might be a better option in place of sleep powder in some cases.
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Last gen I would agree with how opposing weather was running rampant, tho now I rarely run into it (and its usually sun if I do :3). The combo makes for amazing healing potential that I've experienced first hand with even a sub-optimal EV spread.
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Yeah but it kind of makes Venusaur into a big useless sponge. I think it really comes down to whether you want leech seed or synthesis for recovery. Personally I prefer Leech Seed because it forces switches, does damage, all that good stuff.
I guess I should have added that this is assuming the poke being stalled has surcomed to Toxic Spikes / poisoned from Sludge Bomb and when coupled with Leech Seed the damage adds up while it stall heals.
Also its a nice crit / misprediction blanket.
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deleted a bunch of posts. Let's keep the "are these IVs good??" or "I'm raising a xxx, what moves should I teach it?" posts for IRC (or wifi?)
I think this is going to be considered the "Standard" Mega Venusaur:
Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll (Thick Fat)
Nature: Bold/Calm
EVs: 252 HP, 256 combined Def/SpDef
-Giga Drain
-Sludge Bomb/Sludge Wave
-Leech Seed
-Substitute/Sleep Powder
Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb provide at least neutral damage against everything other than Steel and Poison types. You might want to start by using Leech Seed or Sleep Powder on Venusaur's first turn in order to counter your opponent's Venusaur counter. I don't think it's worth giving up the move slot to have a 60 BP Hidden Power Fire.
Venusaur is going to be a great counter to many Pokemon types, such as Water (resists Water, neutral to Ice, Giga Drain Super Effective against Water), Fairy (resists Fairy, Sludge Bomb Super Effective against Fairy), Fighting (Resists Fighting, and few Pokemon have Flying or Psychic Moves), Grass (not affected by Spore or any other Powder moves, Sludge Bomb is super effective Grass), as well as Ground and Rock Pokemon.
It's really a great and unique advantage that Mega Venusaur has - being able to counter so many different Pokemon types and generally not having to worry about these Pokemon having non-STAB attacks that are super effective against Venusaur (in the way that nearly all Water Pokemon carry Ice attacks that are Super Effective against nearly all other Grass Pokemon).
Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll (Thick Fat)
Nature: Bold/Calm
EVs: 252 HP, 256 combined Def/SpDef
-Giga Drain
-Sludge Bomb/Sludge Wave
-Leech Seed
-Substitute/Sleep Powder
Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb provide at least neutral damage against everything other than Steel and Poison types. You might want to start by using Leech Seed or Sleep Powder on Venusaur's first turn in order to counter your opponent's Venusaur counter. I don't think it's worth giving up the move slot to have a 60 BP Hidden Power Fire.
Venusaur is going to be a great counter to many Pokemon types, such as Water (resists Water, neutral to Ice, Giga Drain Super Effective against Water), Fairy (resists Fairy, Sludge Bomb Super Effective against Fairy), Fighting (Resists Fighting, and few Pokemon have Flying or Psychic Moves), Grass (not affected by Spore or any other Powder moves, Sludge Bomb is super effective Grass), as well as Ground and Rock Pokemon.
It's really a great and unique advantage that Mega Venusaur has - being able to counter so many different Pokemon types and generally not having to worry about these Pokemon having non-STAB attacks that are super effective against Venusaur (in the way that nearly all Water Pokemon carry Ice attacks that are Super Effective against nearly all other Grass Pokemon).
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Celebi is hardly a better wall than mega venasaur. Surely her SEVEN weaknesses and susceptibility to U-turn and pursuit (both of which run rampant in the metagame) made that obvious to everyone right?
Celebi is better at many things, utility, support, BP, blahblahblah but it is not a better WALL.
Celebi is better at many things, utility, support, BP, blahblahblah but it is not a better WALL.
I just had a thought -
Mega Venusaur would be an absolute beast if it is given a +2 Speed boost via Baton Pass.
Outspeeding your opponent with SubSeed is obviously a lethal combo, and Venusaur is so bulky that your opponent may run into a lot of trouble trying to stop it. Mega Venusaur resists priority Water and Fighting attacks, and isn't Weak to any priority attack. With Venusaur's 80/120/123 defenses, immunity to poison/spore/powder moves, extremely useful resistances and lack of weaknesses, Venusaur is going to be really hard to stop as a SubSeeder with +2 speed.
Mega Venusaur would be an absolute beast if it is given a +2 Speed boost via Baton Pass.
Outspeeding your opponent with SubSeed is obviously a lethal combo, and Venusaur is so bulky that your opponent may run into a lot of trouble trying to stop it. Mega Venusaur resists priority Water and Fighting attacks, and isn't Weak to any priority attack. With Venusaur's 80/120/123 defenses, immunity to poison/spore/powder moves, extremely useful resistances and lack of weaknesses, Venusaur is going to be really hard to stop as a SubSeeder with +2 speed.
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