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Pokémon Gyarados
- Thread starter azureleaf17
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Personally, I'm not liking the mega evo too much. In past generations, I used it mostly because Water/Flying gives it good physical resistances. Setting up on Choice-locked Terrakion into close combat and Conkeldurr lacking Thunderpunch was amazing.
Ok, seems like the Mega Gyarados thread is kinda dead, but I'm gonna throw this in anyway. Though it's a question about regular Gyarados...
Thinking of making a standard DD Gyarados, but what nature do you guys think would serve it better in the current metagame? Adamant or Jolly? Gonna team it up with a troll team of MMawile and Dragalge.
Thinking of making a standard DD Gyarados, but what nature do you guys think would serve it better in the current metagame? Adamant or Jolly? Gonna team it up with a troll team of MMawile and Dragalge.
Depends on what you want to outspeed. Personally, I think minimum is base 102 (Garchomp) after one DD, but you can go 110 (Gengar), 115 (Starmie), 120 (Alakazam) or 130 (Jolteon, Aerodactyl, must be Jolly). Rest goes to bulk.
In an unknown metagame, I prefer a lot of bulk. Gyarados is a great check and counter to numeral threats. I can name Lucario, Garchomp, Heracross, Gliscor, Scizor, Breloom, Azumarill, Salamence, Tyranitar. Problem is Gyarados can't take those hits forever with lefties, so you might want to give it some backup.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-58467181
With max bulk DDance, you can guarantee as few turns worth of set up.
This isn't the best game, but it shows how threatening Mega Gyara is; and how changing form at the right time means that it can keep its resistances.
With max bulk DDance, you can guarantee as few turns worth of set up.
This isn't the best game, but it shows how threatening Mega Gyara is; and how changing form at the right time means that it can keep its resistances.
A regular Gyarados could have done that sweep after the two Dragon Dances. The evolution didn't change anything (Waterfall would have dealt with Gengar just fine).
You hold a fair point. I brought it up moreso to highlight how it dealt with the Mega Charizard Y.
One of the issues people were bringing up was the increase of weaknesses that Gyara gets post evolution; I just wanted to illustrate how postponing said evolution gives a whole new aspect to MegaGyara. Waiting to switch Formes allowed Gyara to take the Solarbeams and then capitalize on the boosted Atk when it was capable of abusing it with the x2 Spd.
As you correctly noted: regular DD Gyara had that team covered; bar Venusaur to be fair. It just goes to prove that the Mega evolution is only good news for him. For example, with its already established threat as a DD'er, including its Sub variant, Gyara can easily play its old role as sweeper in liason with another, different Mega. Or take the Mega slot itself, its addition has only made Gyara more diverse; something it noticeably wasn't in past Generations.
The versatility of Mold Breaker gives MegaGyara a means to hit some of its old checks either a bit more reliably or now for SE damage. Examples include Bronzong's Defensive variant, Lati@s now taking a more reliable hit over Stone Edge (Perhaps even a STAB Crunch if Game Freak feel nice with the Tutors next game) and Waterfalls now hitting anything that would've switched in for the water Absorb: looking at you, Jellicent. (Again, Crunch please GF)
So yes, while regular Gyara still does its job damn well, its Mega has adds a lot more versality; as well as a much meatier 155 base Attack too.
MaximumZero
Banned deucer.
How about Ice Fang guys ?
It's nice for coverage: Dragons (Garchomp, DNite, Mence) and Bulky Grass types (Venusaur, Gogoat(?)) but it all depends on what you need Gyara to do.
If it's sweeping late game, hopefully you'll have taken the Grass types and Garchomp out of way already, meaning that; post DD; just about everything left will fall to Waterfall, Stone Edge or EQ (/Crunch plz GF plz)
If its more of a wall breaker set, then yeah, I can see Ice Fang being viable. But Gyara is a sweeper imo :$
Gyarados should still be able to function properly with a Dancing set running EdgeQuake + Waterfall/Aqua Tail. And if you Baton Pass things from his new friend Scoli, you can run Ice Fang instead of DD.
RestTalk is back, and can now run a more efficient Waterfall + Dragon Tail attacking combination. It's now walled by Azumarill, but Ferry will be phazed out. The return to Gen IV sleep mechs means that with a little mind gaming you can have your Gyarados awake and resting again with just the proper prediction.
The mega Evo gives Gyara the ability to set up one Dragon Dance in front of Rock, Psychic (which is now not totally outclassed by Fairy) and Electric (still iffy) attacks, while making it weak to Fairy, Grass, Bug and Fighting, the last two which it used to resist, plus loses an immunity to Earthquake to gain an ability to hit pokemon with his own Earthquake, which I find pretty ironic. It can be situational, I just see other megas doing a set up job better, like M-Lucario, but he cannot boost his speed (still carries Adaptability Bullet Punch + Espeed though).
RestTalk is back, and can now run a more efficient Waterfall + Dragon Tail attacking combination. It's now walled by Azumarill, but Ferry will be phazed out. The return to Gen IV sleep mechs means that with a little mind gaming you can have your Gyarados awake and resting again with just the proper prediction.
The mega Evo gives Gyara the ability to set up one Dragon Dance in front of Rock, Psychic (which is now not totally outclassed by Fairy) and Electric (still iffy) attacks, while making it weak to Fairy, Grass, Bug and Fighting, the last two which it used to resist, plus loses an immunity to Earthquake to gain an ability to hit pokemon with his own Earthquake, which I find pretty ironic. It can be situational, I just see other megas doing a set up job better, like M-Lucario, but he cannot boost his speed (still carries Adaptability Bullet Punch + Espeed though).
Was reading through this topic a bit but didn't encounter one detail yet.
Although I don't know how many pokemon can exactly learn it (through breeding etc.), the move Freeze-Dry could have a (small) impact on (not-Mega)Gyarados. Even though he has high special defense and freeze-dry is not overly strong at 70 BP, it will be an extra quad weakness that Gyarados didn't have to be afraid of before. In my opinion it should at least be mentioned in the nerfs/disadvantages in the OP.
Although I don't know how many pokemon can exactly learn it (through breeding etc.), the move Freeze-Dry could have a (small) impact on (not-Mega)Gyarados. Even though he has high special defense and freeze-dry is not overly strong at 70 BP, it will be an extra quad weakness that Gyarados didn't have to be afraid of before. In my opinion it should at least be mentioned in the nerfs/disadvantages in the OP.
The problem with Mega-Gyara trying to run defensive sets is its typing. Suddenly, Grass, Fighting, Bug, Fairy are hitting you SE and Ground moves can now affect you when before, Gyara wasn't at all bothered by these moves. Mega-Gyara in turn gets a Rock neutrality, less compounded Electric weakness, Psychic immunity and Ghost + Dark resistance....yeah only the latter three truly matter, and it doesn't seem worth getting 1 rare immunity and 2 resists for 4 new weaknesses and the loss of an important immunity.
I've been using RestTalk MegaGyarados in my team as one of my F/W/G(the other two being Gougeist and Heatran) and it absolutely wrecks balls.
Pros of MegaGyarados:
-counters the ever-present Aegislash (MegaGyara will survive a +2 Sacred Sword while Aegislash will not survive an unboosted Waterfall while in Attack stance)
-forces Tyranitar out
-a bulky Resttalk set is a great Baton Pass Receiver(immune to Sticky Web upon entry, any damage from SR can be healed later)
And like what others said, you can play mind games with his MegaEvo, which can net you an extra turn to DD. It's not like you absolutely HAVE to megaevolve, I've swept games with him as base Gyarados
Pros of MegaGyarados:
-counters the ever-present Aegislash (MegaGyara will survive a +2 Sacred Sword while Aegislash will not survive an unboosted Waterfall while in Attack stance)
-forces Tyranitar out
-a bulky Resttalk set is a great Baton Pass Receiver(immune to Sticky Web upon entry, any damage from SR can be healed later)
And like what others said, you can play mind games with his MegaEvo, which can net you an extra turn to DD. It's not like you absolutely HAVE to megaevolve, I've swept games with him as base Gyarados
Mind sharing your EV spread?
I think, last last gen, this guy is a seriously underrated threat. I'm using a bulky DD set, and I'm playing with moxie rather than intimidate; he picks up boosts too easily even before going Mega. I'm running DD / Waterfall / EQ / Taunt, which obviously poses coverage issues (grass-types and flying dragons) but shutting down walls with taunt to grab an extra boost and prolong the sweep is delicious. So is destroying rotom-ws with EQ, which is pretty much what this guy was made for.
I think with Bulkydos, 216 hp, 108 def, 184 spd is the preferred spread. Enough speed to outspeed Alakazam before going mega (which is going to lose without focus sash) and max jolly t-tar. Enough HP for leftovers threshold +1 and the rest in defense. Might want to sacrifice some to score critical KOs, but I think Lucario will fall to EQ either way. Bonus that it KOs Rotom-w and Gengar in mega form.
I think the real value of Mega Gyarados lies in Mold Breaker, which allows it to easily smash through what is bar none regular Gyara's most prevalent switch-in: Rotom-W. Especially if you have another pokemon on your team that can possibly Mega Evolve (Garchomp, Scizor, etc), opponents will not expect your Mega to be Gyarados. This makes Mega Gyarados possibly the best Rotom-W lure in the game. All you need to do is switch Gyara into something that it will force out, DD while they switch in their Rotom-W, and then Mega Evolve and KO with EQ on the same turn. This allows you to instantly dispose of one of Gyara's biggest counters, which may clear the path for a sweep; in addition, it eliminates what is usually a vitally important cog in your opponent's defensive core, opening the door for other sweepers that hate Rotom-W like Talonflame, Landorus-T, and Keldeo.
Except before long bringing in a rotom-W to gyra before you confirm its not their MEvo makes you that guy switching in lando to take rotoms volt switch
Doesn't Gyara get Crunch? Damn, that's a shame.
About its new weaknesses / resistances:
The only Bugs that ever really see the light of day in OU are Scizor and Heracross, who are ruined by Intimidate and outsped by Gyarados anyway (not to mention normal Gyara resists all their STABs so it can stay in on them instead of immediately Mega-Evolving), Volcarona, who can't risk a Waterfall, and Galvantula (thanks to the new Sticky Web mainly) who already scares Gyarados BEFORE it Mega Evos.
As for its Ghost resistance and Fighting weakness... well, in both cases the most notable danger is Aegislash (Shadow Sneak and Sacred Sword). Gyara switches in and weakens it with Intimidate. It can then see up Dragon Dance while remaining resistant to Sacred Sword, then mega-evolve before a boosted Shadow Sneak can even hurt it and annihilate it with Earthquake. If Aegis tries to Sacred Sword on the same turn Gyara attacks, it will be outsped and KOed anyway. Gengar, however, it an issue, but Gengar is very physically frail and is outsped by a +1 Gyarados. It also has to choose whether to Shadow Ball or Focus Blast, based on whether the opponent thinks Gyara will Mega Evo or not - if it doesn't, it resists Focus Blast and KOed back with Waterfall anyway. Mega Gengar with its increased speed is of course still a threat, but quite frankly it seems quite obvious it won't be allowed in OU for much longer.
The psychic immunity is mostly useless, however it can allow Gyarados to check Reuniclus better as its increased special bulk allows it to take Focus Blasts easier. Between its newfound special bulk and immunity to Psyshock, it can also halt Latios and offensive Latias fairly well as long as they aren't packing Thunderbolt.
The Dark resistance and loss of a Rock weakness, as well as increased bulk, make Mega Gyara a very good check to Tyranitar. It can now switch in with ease on a predicted Crunch, and won't be punished nearly as heavily if it mis-predicts and gets smacked by Stone Edge. A Mega-Gyara's Waterfall will deal massive damage in return, too. Mega-Gyara also resists Sucker Punch so Pokemon like Mega-Absol can no longer check it when it D-Dances up and starts sweeping. Also remember that it no longer takes massive damage from Stealth Rocks upon entry, giving it greater longevity if the user likes to switch a lot.
The new Fairy weakness is a bigger issue than the other ones, however, but most OU-relevant Fairies are specially bulky and specially offensive, with lower physical stats. With its great special bulk and the massive power (and flinch chance) of its STAB Waterfall, Mega-Gyara can effectively threaten most of them and, with some defensive investment, generally won't be OHKOed by Moonblast and the like. Especially after setting up a Dragon Dance, most fairies certainly won't want to take it on, with the exception of Whimsicott who also resists both STABs and can annoy with Prankster Leech Seed, Stun Spore and Substitute.
Overall it is a mixed bag, but I believe a lot of positives arise from the type change. If only it got Crunch...
How will Gyrados work with Jolteon in gen vi? I want to run these two with someone that can appreciate the subpass set for jolteon and the defense gyrados can provide. I was thinking Haxorus Swordsdance or Cloyster with shell smash.
While this has been mentioned before, I'd like to say it again and say that both regular Gyarados and Mega Gyarados can hold their own just fine and still be a huge threat to any team not prepared to deal with them. This means that you can get away with having at least two Mega Pokemon on your team without a need to Mega Evolve Gyarados. Whereas you look at a Pokemon like Ampharos and Absol... they are almost a liability without their Megas.
More importantly, I really like the potential mindgames you can have with Gyarados/Mega Gyarados, especially if your opponent sees that you have at least two Pokemon that can Mega Evolve. With team preview, you can get an idea in advance as to what you would rather do with Gyarados: do you need the useful Water, Fighting, Fire, Bug resists and Ground immunity? Or do you think you'll need more bulk toward the more "uncommon" types that his Water/Dark typing would resist? With this mindset, it forces you to think ahead, and mentally prepare yourself with what Megas to use, or to keep in their regular forms.
I would also like to throw in that with Steel losing their resistance to Dark and Ghost, Mega Gyarados is one of the few Pokemon that can boast a respectable bulk, while resisting Ghost/Dark with his own Water/Dark typing. Sure, Assault Vest Ttar can also do fine, but it's nice to know we have more options.
Obviously the down side to having a duo Gyarados/Mega Gyarados idea is that you have no Leftovers if you choose to stick with regular Gyarados for the game.
More importantly, I really like the potential mindgames you can have with Gyarados/Mega Gyarados, especially if your opponent sees that you have at least two Pokemon that can Mega Evolve. With team preview, you can get an idea in advance as to what you would rather do with Gyarados: do you need the useful Water, Fighting, Fire, Bug resists and Ground immunity? Or do you think you'll need more bulk toward the more "uncommon" types that his Water/Dark typing would resist? With this mindset, it forces you to think ahead, and mentally prepare yourself with what Megas to use, or to keep in their regular forms.
I would also like to throw in that with Steel losing their resistance to Dark and Ghost, Mega Gyarados is one of the few Pokemon that can boast a respectable bulk, while resisting Ghost/Dark with his own Water/Dark typing. Sure, Assault Vest Ttar can also do fine, but it's nice to know we have more options.
Obviously the down side to having a duo Gyarados/Mega Gyarados idea is that you have no Leftovers if you choose to stick with regular Gyarados for the game.
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