Pokémon Charizard

[EpixAura]

This whole Charizard X vs. Charizard Y argument seems kind of silly. It's really team dependent. Charizard Y absolutely needs support and from a purely offensive perspective just punches giant holes in the enemy team. In exchange for the additional support he supplies Drought. I would think in order to use him effectively you would need someone to control hazards as well as some Pokemon who benefit (but don't necessarily rely on) Sun. Basically, if you run Charizard Y, you'll be building a lot of your team around him.

Charizard X is just your standard late game sweeper, with some better stats and offensive typing than most. He doesn't need support, and he doesn't provide it. He's just a late game sweeper. Not much to say here, really. We know how he works by now.

The point is that comparing these two is really difficult. Of course Charizard Y is going to outperform Charizard X when you have a whole team built around it, getting rid of SR, abusing Drought, and dealing with the plethora of checks and counters. They perform such different functions that it doesn't really matter.

 

[Bravadorado]

This whole Charizard X vs. Charizard Y argument seems kind of silly. It's really team dependent. Charizard Y absolutely needs support and from a purely offensive perspective just punches giant holes in the enemy team. In exchange for the additional support he supplies Drought. I would think in order to use him effectively you would need someone to control hazards as well as some Pokemon who benefit (but don't necessarily rely on) Sun. Basically, if you run Charizard Y, you'll be building a lot of your team around him.

Charizard X is just your standard late game sweeper, with some better stats and offensive typing than most. He doesn't need support, and he doesn't provide it. He's just a late game sweeper. Not much to say here, really. We know how he works by now.

The point is that comparing these two is really difficult. Of course Charizard Y is going to outperform Charizard X when you have a whole team built around it, getting rid of SR, abusing Drought, and dealing with the plethora of checks and counters. They perform such different functions that it doesn't really matter.

Correct. The only things I'm here to defend are that Yzard has better defensive typing, SR is an issue for both of them, and Yzard preforms better on a team that utilizes his potential. These three things are true, and yet everyone seems too blind to notice, especially the SR thing. Neither one of them wants to take a SR, and neither one of them is likely to survive after taking a hit from SR. Yzard because it's 4x SE, and Xzard because it's 2x SE and he still has to set up after that.

 

[Immortal]

hey so there are a ton of things slashed for the charizard y special attacking set. if i am running fire blast solar beam focus blast and flame charge which nature should i go with? should i just not care how much flame charge does and go with timid nature or should i do naive or hasty

 

[Galon]

hey so there are a ton of things slashed for the charizard y special attacking set. if i am running fire blast solar beam focus blast and flame charge which nature should i go with? should i just not care how much flame charge does and go with timid nature or should i do naive or hasty

I think you should not care for the attack stat unless you run flare blitz or earthquake or both

 

[Immortal]

I think you should not care for the attack stat unless you run flare blitz or earthquake or both

okay great thanks, my other attack are all special so i wont worry about it

 

[Thorhammer]

Testing confirms Tough Claws gives a x1.33 boost, meaning Mega Charizard X is hitting as hard with Flare Blitz and Outrage as if it had Adaptability. Any calcs assuming a x1.2 boost were only giving 90% of the move's actual power.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

Testing confirms Tough Claws gives a x1.33 boost, meaning Mega Charizard X is hitting as hard with Flare Blitz and Outrage as if it had Adaptability. Any calcs assuming a x1.2 boost were only giving 90% of the move's actual power.

Care to give a source? As amazing as that sounds, I find it somewhat hard to believe. If it is true, then that really helps Zard X's case, as he's essentially holding a Life Orb without the Recoil, getting past the whole Mega can't hold items problem.

 

[Thorhammer]

Care to give a source? As amazing as that sounds, I find it somewhat hard to believe. If it is true, then that really helps Zard X's case, as he's essentially holding a Life Orb without the Recoil, getting past the whole Mega can't hold items problem.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokémon-battle-mechanics-research.3489239/page-35#post-4938780

That post started the investigation; I personally confirmed it as x1.33 a few posts down.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

Ah, thank you. I can't argue with math. Well this definitely makes me much more happy about running Zard X.

 

[DTHaseo]

NICE! hitting even harder is a BIG plus! Loving it already. Mixed CharX just keeps getting better.

 

[Realm]

Does that mean Showdown Char X is actually hitting weaker than what he's suppose to? What is the assumed percentage in place for the simulator?

Very nice confirmation, though.

 

[Realm]

So... I'm confused by this. Lets look over them (Green is defensive, red is offensive):

Yzard:
Immune: Ground
Resistant: Bug, Grass, Fire, Steel, Fighting, Fairy
Weak: Water, Rock, Electric
STAB immunities: None
SE: Grass, Bug, Steel, Ice, Fighting
Neutral: 14 Types

Xzard:
Immune: None
Resistant: Bug, Grass, Fire, Steel, Electric
Weak: Rock, Ground, Dragon
STAB immunities: Fairy
SE: Grass, Steel, Bug, Ice, Dragon
Neutral: 18 Types

Yzard has resistance to fairy and fighting moves which is huge, while Xzard only has electric resistance. If you count water as a weakness on Yzard, then they have the same amount of weaknesses, if you don't count it (Which you shouldn't because not many Yzards are going to stay in if Drought goes away especially since the main other weather users hurt it badly) then he only has 2 weaknesses. Xzard's secondary stab is ineffective against fairy types, providing free switch ins occasionally (Especially if locked into Outrage). Additionally, Xzard has no immunities to any types, while Yzard has ground immunity. This gives it a distinct advantage when mega evolving because if the opponent's predictions are off it could lead to a free turn for Yzard, but not for Xzard. It also gives Yzard a distinct advantage on teams allowing for occasional free switch ins with good prediction.

Yzard has these advantages in relation to typing:
More resistances
Better resistances
Less weaknesses
Important immunity
No ineffective STAB

And these disadvantages:
4x weakness to Rock
Slightly less neutral coverage on STAB
...
Pretty sure that's it actually.

I don't know where you are coming from when you say that Xzard has better typing. Both of them are crippled by SR enough to where they need it removed before they go in. Both of them have dangerous weaknesses in Rock and Dragon/Earthquake. Yzard might have to watch out for being hit with an 80% accuracy Stone Miss or Head Smash, but Xzard has to watch out for 100% accuracy Earthquake and Dragon Pulse, and 90% accuracy Draco Meteor. Both of them and all pokemon have their respective counters, so saying that Yzard is scared when a TTar or Politoed jumps in is the same as saying that Xzard is scared when a bulky fairy comes in (Especially if during his Outrage, which mind you is much more dangerous to be locked into than Solarbeam Especially if they are resistant to fire, like Azumarill).

Bottom line is that Yzard has better defensive typing (Especially with Drought up, which should be always), and his offensive typing is only slightly worse. Fire/Flying is SE against 5 things, while Fire Dragon is also SE against 5 things. Neutral coverage is only in favor of Xzard by 4 types, which isn't a lot. Especially considering that most of Xzard's standard moves have a lower BP than Yzard's standard moves.

X doesn't have any 4x weaknesses and has more neutral coverage. He may not be resistant to as many things as Y but he has better STABs, can't be countered as easily due to his type and not having reliance on Drought, and will still be neutral to water moves even if there's no Drought on the field. (and Drought can be given to X with support from Ninetails anyway. That's actually one thing I prefer about X's ability - X can get sun support via something else, but nothing can give Char Y tough claws. Not that having Drought isn't amazing for Char Y)

Y struggles when you face an opponent with a SR'd controlled game -and- a weather mon, making the rock weakness stand out even worse. Char Y has to keep switching to fight this but because of his type, he is not suitable to be doing this. You can run defog and that -will- help, but you can't afford to fail. And Y can get OHKO'd by rock moves from pokemon -even without stab and average atk- due to that 4x weakness and mediocre def. It's been said a million times, but we know that both Char's have to worry about SR's before the MEvo, but at least Char X will be set once he's already MEvo'd, and doesn't have an ability that can get countered or run out and push him to switch later on.

The 4x weakness to Rock is what makes it a worse type, in my opinion. Not just because of SR's, either. And I would definitely still count water as a weakness, as Char X is neutral to it and doesn't need a weather ability out to make it so. Drought can be countered while X will always be neutral. Also, the same can be said both ways about the surprise factors for Char Y. If they think it's Y and use electric or a physical move(due to low def), that works in favor for X if they guess wrong. And Rock moves eliminate the need to guess, for the most part, against a Mega Char. But unlike Y, if the opponent has one and uses it as a way to ensure it's effective, at least he can survive it. It works for both of them, so I'd say that surprise factor is about equal for them anyway.

 

[I2edShift]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokémon-battle-mechanics-research.3489239/page-35#post-4938780

That post started the investigation; I personally confirmed it as x1.33 a few posts down.

Hello Megazard, Overused tier welcomes you. Please enjoy your stay.

The funny part here is that MegazardX is literally the new MidMence. For some ungodly reason Salamence can't learn Outrage this gen. We're missing Draco Meteor, but that's not so bad. We have STAB Overheat/Flare Blitz instead.

 

[Realm]

Hello Megazard, Overused tier welcomes you. Please enjoy your stay.

The funny part here is that MegazardX is literally the new MidMence. For some ungodly reason Salamence can't learn Outrage this gen. We're missing Draco Meteor, but that's not so bad. We have STAB Overheat/Flare Blitz instead.

I think Mence can get Outrage once Pokebank comes around though, right?

But until then it's out of luck, lol. Not to mention Char X is neutral to Fairy and Ice, which helps a lot.

Yeah, Char doesn't get Draco for now but he at least gets the fire ones, and has a higher sp. atk than Mence to boot.

 

[X5Dragon]

Great news, now I can run the calcs again for the CharX sets and put the speculations about Tough Claws to an end. Man, as if I didn't have enough reason to like this fiery bastard.

 

[I2edShift]

I think Mence can get Outrage once Pokebank comes around though, right?

But until then it's out of luck, lol. Not to mention Char X is neutral to Fairy and Ice, which helps a lot.

Yeah, Char doesn't get Draco for now but he at least gets the fire ones, and has a higher sp. atk than Mence to boot.

Possibly , some are speculating that GF might remove 'illegal' moves from Pokémon when they're imported. By gen 6 standards anyways. That's pure speculation though, we'll have to wait and see in December.

I hate auto correct on cell phones sometimes.

 

[Bravadorado]

Snip

So basically, you took the two disadvantages that I already mentioned and just talked about them a whole lot.

Yzard has these advantages in relation to typing:
More resistances
Better resistances
Less weaknesses
Important immunity
No ineffective STAB

And these disadvantages:
4x weakness to Rock
Slightly less neutral coverage on STAB

You also talked a lot about Drought being countered, which is hilarious to me because this discussion was about typing. And in your own words:

Drought =//= typing

And yet you hypocritically bring it up again and again.

Either way, I suppose you're correct that drought is countered easily enough, but what about Dragon Dance? Xzard needs a boosting move to be as powerful as Yzard. What if you never get the chance to boost? Things can go wrong for Xzard too. This goes double for your insistence that you can get drought support on Xzard. Are you going to get Drought, and then somehow get a boost off without being countered? If they see Ninetales and Xzard on your team then as soon as ninetales comes out they are going to send in someone with earthquake/stone edge/Draco meteor to destroy the Xzard switch in (Or destroy the ninetales if she stays in), and then you can try to boost and hope they don't OHKO you and that you can OHKO them back with the odds not in your favor.

That DD boost is way more important to you than having a Ninetales give you drought, and doing both is virtually impossible when against a smart player.

Anyway, you failed to give any examples of how Xzard has better typing. Again, all you did was talk a whole lot about the 2 disadvantages that I already acknowledged and spew nonsense about how with incredible luck and prediction you may be able to get Drought and DD on Xzard (Oh btw, if you send out Ninetales, what is stopping them from throwing out TTar or Hippowdon? Both of them can wreck Ninetales or Xzard on the switch in, and remove sun). All the while you failed to acknowledge the typing benefits that Yzard gains in no stab immunity, an immunity to ground, potential for only 2 weaknesses, 1 additional resistance, and both resistances on Yzard being much much better than the single resistance on Xzard. Ergo it would seem that you are just fanboying for Xzard and ignoring his flaws while boasting Yzards weaknesses and ignoring Yzards strengths.

I have nothing further to say to you if you are just going to selectively repeat what I've said, throw out situational flaws unrelated to the discussion at hand, and most importantly if you are going to be hypocritical and go against what you've said previously just to harp about Droughts weaknesses.

 

[I2edShift]

The one important difference I see here is that Yard seems like he might have 4 move slot syndrome. You need your Fire Blast Nuke, you need Focus Blast for Steels/rocks, you need Solarbeam for ground/water/rock and you need Dragon Pulse for all the Pseudo legendary dragons that so frequently land on so many teams... But you also need a boosting move so you're not revenge killed on the spot. 100 speed + nature & 252 EV'S is good, but not not all that special. I'm not sure if it's best to drop DPulse or Solarbeam for a boosting move. Even with its accuracy issues I feel that Focus Blast is to crucial to give up.

XZard on the other hand gets by just fine with Flare Blitz, Quake, and Outrage/DClaw, and Dragon Dance.

 

[Kejmur]

i really shouldn't post at midnight. i normally double check things... the one time i don't i get shown up eh?

Defensively your right i derped out there for a mo. Fire/Dragon is still better offensively though.......until i look at that math.

still i see one more problem with ZardY which i'm sure you will answer. 4MSS. With ZardX your set is pretty much locked. DD/Outrage/Flare Blitz/EQ.
This theoretical nuke of a ZardY wants something to boost its speed (Unless Sticky Web is up) in Flame Charge or DD. It wants Flare Blitz, and Fire Blast to maximize its wall breaking potential. It wants Focus Blast. It wants Overheat for Hippo. It wants Solarbeam and EQ and others. i'm not nitpicking i never said ZardY wasn't Viable (I was more so defending X than bashing Y.) But what is the theoretical set.

its funny the way i see it, ZardY requires more outside help, than X. it wants stick web bad so it can go all out attacker, it wants Tyranitar and Hippo and Toed gone if possible (Ttar and Toed aren't necessary but even when they die, their sacrifice stops a sweep as You have probably take Flare Blitz damage. if rocks are up and you had initially switched in on them, which is quite possible as you will have a spinner over a Defogger to keep sticky web. then you can stay in and punch holes or switch out as fodder. ) and the fact it needs this help is ironic as weather setters are meant to be support pokes (ZardY is just special and a bit selfish with his weather huh?) but ZardX can set up himself but isn't as immediately threatening. in exchange you don't have to build your team around it.

Yep, he indeed needs a bit more help, because wrong weather can screw him up. But pay-off is pretty big if you ask me (math prove it, Physical Yzard in Sun actually HURTS and with weather less reliable this Gen it's even better) and it's not like there aren't any other Pokemon which need this kind of help. Although I think everything suddenly changed when Tough Claws ended up stronger than people expected before. It's about the same in my book now, with Charizard X having slight advantage now. Physical Charizard Y is still viable, but in most cases right now Charizard X is just easier to use and not weaker anymore. And second STAB right now actually matter when dragon attacks actually hurt more (although both still struggle against Hippo and Defensive Politoad, especially if they are DD versions). And I'm one of those people which say that having something unexpected on your team may really help you out win many battles. Of course standards are standards because they are good, but unorthodox (and viable) set(s) are something that IMO good team should have at least in number of one Pokemon. It really makes laddering easier. And they still have different typing, while you may still use Fly for second STAB (a bit gimmicky, but possible to work around, as Flying is really good type attack with no immunities to switch into and sure as hell Steel types won't stay in against Fire Types, while boosted Brick Break/Earthquake smashes Rock Types anyway and there is not Life Orb recoil to weaken you by constant switching abusing Fly one turn charge-up which BTW also give you psuedo protect).

NICE! hitting even harder is a BIG plus! Loving it already. Mixed CharX just keeps getting better.

Mixed Char Y is still fine, as long as weather is not changed. STAB Overheat in Sun even with little amount of EVs hit like a nuke from this SpA. Although right now with confirmation of Tough Claws damage they fill right now totally different niche.

And someone mentioned to provide Sun for Charizard X - with Heat Rock I hardly call this reliable. It's better to be able to summon weather yourself and Charizard Y actually does it.

 

[Bravadorado]

The one important difference I see here is that Yard seems like he might have 4 move slot syndrome. You need your Fire Blast Nuke, you need Focus Blast for Steels/rocks, you need Solarbeam for ground/water/rock and you need Dragon Pulse for all the Pseudo legendary dragons that so frequently land on so many teams... But you also need a boosting move so you're not revenge killed on the spot. 100 speed + nature & 252 EV'S is good, but not not all that special. I'm not sure if it's best to drop DPulse or Solarbeam for a boosting move. Even with its accuracy issues I feel that Focus Blast is to crucial to give up.

XZard on the other hand gets by just fine with Flare Blitz, Quake, and Outrage/DClaw, and Dragon Dance.

THere is no boosting move that works well on Yzard unless you are running a mixed or physical set. There is tailwind, but eh. Roost is also an option.

But both of them have some 4MSS, Xzard would like Thunder punch and even Overheat to take out certain threats in addition to the 4 moves you posted. Yzard has it a bit worse with Roost, Tailwind, Fire Blast, Solar Beam, Focus Blast, Dragon Pulse and Air Slash. But that's still 2-3 abilities that each of them can't fit in. I've never thought that 4MSS was a bad thing though, it means you're more unpredictable and you have a lot of options.

I would probably run Sticky Web or Tail Wind on another pokemon in my party for Yzard. Two reasons, 1. You could really use the additional coverage or recovery and 2. If you force a switch and use that turn to set up tailwind, it is pretty likely that they are sending in a TTar or Heatran (if they have one) and your best option is to use Focus Blast and try for the 2HKO. A lot of the things that check Yzard can be 2HKO'd if you hit them on the switch in, so with good prediction, not many things can get you. Considering that, wasting the turn setting up is dangerous and is probably going to force you to switch out anyway.

I'm pretty sure I would run without solarbeam too, because it's dangerous to use if they have any weather on their team and it's main coverage is water/ground types which either are politoed/hippowdon and you want to gtfo, or any other water/ground type where you can take the water attacks with sun up and hit back with Dragon pulse/Airslash for decent damage.

My set would likely be: Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Air Slash, Dragon Pulse/Roost.

 

[muzillu]

THere is no boosting move that works well on Yzard unless you are running a mixed or physical set. There is tailwind, but eh. Roost is also an option.

But both of them have some 4MSS, Xzard would like Thunder punch and even Overheat to take out certain threats in addition to the 4 moves you posted. Yzard has it a bit worse with Roost, Tailwind, Fire Blast, Solar Beam, Focus Blast, Dragon Pulse and Air Slash. But that's still 2-3 abilities that each of them can't fit in. I've never thought that 4MSS was a bad thing though, it means you're more unpredictable and you have a lot of options.

I would probably run Sticky Web or Tail Wind on another pokemon in my party for Yzard. Two reasons, 1. You could really use the additional coverage or recovery and 2. If you force a switch and use that turn to set up tailwind, it is pretty likely that they are sending in a TTar or Heatran (if they have one) and your best option is to use Focus Blast and try for the 2HKO. A lot of the things that check Yzard can be 2HKO'd if you hit them on the switch in, so with good prediction, not many things can get you. Considering that, wasting the turn setting up is dangerous and is probably going to force you to switch out anyway.

I'm pretty sure I would run without solarbeam too, because it's dangerous to use if they have any weather on their team and it's main coverage is water/ground types which either are politoed/hippowdon and you want to gtfo, or any other water/ground type where you can take the water attacks with sun up and hit back with Dragon pulse/Airslash for decent damage.

My set would likely be: Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Air Slash, Dragon Pulse/Roost.

That set would be walled by any bulky Water-type. Yzard NEEDS Solarbeam.

 

[Bravadorado]

That set would be walled by any bulky Water-type. Yzard NEEDS Solarbeam.

With good prediction on the enemy, Solarbeam is literally a death sentence when used against any team with a politoed, hippowdon, or tyranitar. Considering how popular they are and are going to be (Especially TTar), I don't know if that's worth it. I could simply switch out to someone who isn't fire to take care of the bulky waters, like Galvantula (Can't be paralyzed, doesn't care much about burn, sets up SW for Yzard, accurate thunders especially under rain, volt switch hurts a lot too if the sun is still up, etc) or even Zapdos, who fills the same exact role with Tailwind, is immune to ground moves AND has recovery.

 

[GoliathGarchomp]

It's slightly annoying how Xzard and Yzard are always being compared here. Yes they are both charizard but they are totally different Pokémon in the sense that they serve totally different roles. Which ever one is better is totally dependent on your team. Yzard need more support to be effective but in return is an absolute nuke right from the get go ann provides your team with Drought support, even if its only for a couple of turns. Xzard is more of a late game sweeper and deadly at that, with the exception of a full HP Dnite he is the best DD sweeper in the game with his great duel Stab, great power and coverage imo. Also in my experience Xzard doesn't always have to be at +1 to deal some massive damage.

Okay now to contradict myself for a second because there is something I want to add here. As for typing wise goes personally I feel XZard has better offensive typing with his great duel stab. As for defensive typing ArdentSun did make some good points but I'd have to take a closer look into it myself to decide. One thing to note though its unfair to say that Xzard still suffer from the initial 4x rocks switch in and then say that Yzard has better defensive typing, because Xzard is the exact same typing until you choose to mega evolve. Meaning he has the same weaknesses and immunity, excluding water if Drought is in play, which it should be. For the sake of this example if a Hippowden only has EQ to hit me with and no phasing moves of course I'm going to stay a regular Charizard and set up a few DD's before I mega evolve.

 

[Bravadorado]

Also in my experience Xzard doesn't always have to be at +1 to deal some massive damage.

For the sake of this example if a Hippowden only has EQ to hit me with and no phasing moves of course I'm going to stay a regular Charizard and set up a few DD's before I mega evolve.

If you were referring to my post, I said they you need do use a boosting move to match Yzard's power. This is not to imply that you do bad damage without a boosting move.

That's really risky business though. How do you know that Hippowdon doesn't have EdgeQuake? It's perfectly viable for him to run it. A lot of pokemon have rock moves in addition to ground moves. Immunities are better used when predicting what an opponent will use, trying to predict what an opponent won't use is much more dangerous. For example, predicting that a Greninja will use HP fire on your Ferrothorn and switching in someone with resistant is a lot safer than predicting that Greninja doesn't have HP Fire and trying to stay in to OHKO it.

In general, switching a Charizard in on any pokemon that may run a rock move and trying to set up is a pretty bad idea.

 

[GoliathGarchomp]

If you were referring to my post, I said they you need do use a boosting move to match Yzard's power. This is not to imply that you do bad damage without a boosting move.

That's really risky business though. How do you know that Hippowdon doesn't have EdgeQuake? It's perfectly viable for him to run it. A lot of pokemon have rock moves in addition to ground moves. Immunities are better used when predicting what an opponent will use, trying to predict what an opponent won't use is much more dangerous. For example, predicting that a Greninja will use HP fire on your Ferrothorn and switching in someone with resistant is a lot safer than predicting that Greninja doesn't have HP Fire and trying to stay in to OHKO it.

In general, switching a Charizard in on any Pokémon that may run a rock move and trying to set up is a pretty bad idea.

I wasn't referring to your post in particular, just everyone in general. The only reasoned I mentioned your name was because you made some really strong points for Yzard. And your correct, Xzard does need a boost to rival Yzard Power under Drought, I misread that.

As for the Hippo example it was a bad one I know as Hippo will more than likely going to have a Phasing move or a another move to hit you with whether that be Stone Edge or another one of its coverage move. That's why I said 'For the sake of this example if a Hippowden only has EQ to hit me with and no phasing moves' implying that I knew his whole move set thus removing having to predict if he is running Stone Edge or not. Bad example I know but I was really busy when I posted that and it was the first thing that came to my head. I was merely trying to point out that while Yzard may have better defensive typing, but Xzard can use that same typing to benefit himself before Mega evolving.

Anyway I might come across as an Xzard fanboy atm but I'm not. To be honest I think both Mzards are really good and like I stated in my earlier post shouldn't be compared as they serve different roles.