Gen-NEXT development thread

[Zarel]

I know that you still got more important things to take care of in regards to gen 6, (like making sure Phantom Force works properly with Prankster on Mega Banette, for example), but I have a couple questions about what your plans were for Gen-Next moving forward.

1. Do you plan to continue development on GN at some point in the future?
2. Up till now everything you've done was something that gamefreak could do with the relese of a new gen of games. Have you thought about changing your design philosophy such that you make changes based on things that gamefreak could have done with X and Y, (like give more old Pokemon like Blissy, Milotic, etc. Fairy typing for example)?

1. Yeah. It's nice that a few NEXT features actually did make it into XY, like Roar/Whirlwind being perfect accuracy, and weather abilities being nonpermanent. :] I definitely plan to keep going once I have some free time.

2. The main problem with that is, Game Freak could have given Blissey the Fairy type, but they didn't. It's the same reason I didn't give Flareon Flare Blitz last gen. Oh well, at this point I'm still sticking to "no type retcons". It's partly also just nice to know that if you don't have any NEXT experience, you at least still know what type everything is.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Some things that would be nice to see after Gen6 is complete.

• Fixing Disarmling Voice base power to 80(seriously 40 base power is awful). This should apply also to Aerial Ace and similar moves, following the nerfed Aura Sphere.
• Fixing Draining Kiss and Parabolic Charge to 75 base power, like every other goddamn draining move.
• Remove Limber from Stunfisk for Storm Drain or Water Absorb. This because Electric types are naturally immune to Paralysis, so Limber became less useful than Honey Gather for him(at least Honey Gather allows you to find Honey after ingame battles :C ). Water Absorb or Storm Drain would give it a nice niche as a water counter that can spread status and setup rocks. OU needs more Stunfisk cries.

 

[Arcticblast]

Some things that would be nice to see after Gen6 is complete.Fixing Draining Kiss and Parabolic Charge to 75 base power, like every other goddamn draining move.

Draining Kiss restores 75% of the damage dealt instead of 50% and Parabolic Charge is spread, which is presumably why they have lower BP.

Remove Limber from Stunfisk for Storm Drain or Water Absorb. This because Electric types are naturally immune to Paralysis, so Limber became less useful than Honey Gather for him(at least Honey Gather allows you to find Honey after ingame battles :C ). Water Absorb or Storm Drain would give it a nice niche as a water counter that can spread status and setup rocks. OU needs more Stunfisk cries.

But... triple immunity to Thunder Wave is fun... :,(

 

[Monte Cristo]

Draining Kiss restores 75% of the damage dealt instead of 50% and Parabolic Charge is spread, which is presumably why they have lower BP.
But... triple immunity to Thunder Wave is fun... :,(

I know game freak doesn't give a fuck about the singles metagame/builds for the dubs VGC metagame since gen IV, but parabolic charge is even terrible there, coming off as a outstanding ~~35 BP spread move, so even there it's terrible, you don't see EQ being 65 BP or -. and draining kiss could be buffed to oblivion wings power but meh

 

[Arcticblast]

Rock Slide is everywhere in VGC/Doubles and is piss weak without STAB there so I don't see your point; even if it's stronger than Parabolic Charge it doesn't have any recovery to it.

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

After examining some of the changes to critical hits this gen, I think that incresing crit rates might be a legitimate form of boosting now for some Pokémon. For anyone who dosen't know what I am talking about, incressing your critical hit rate 3 stages makes all of your attacks always crit, meaning it's posible to get reliable crits. And because crits negate defensive boosts and offensive drops, there are now pokemon that gain distinct advantages by boosting crit rate over simply boosting their attack stats.
With crits becoming a potentially viable alternitive to normal attack boosting, I think that now would be a good time to change a few things related to crits.

• Remove random crits from occuring under normal circumstances: Normal circumstances meaning the attacker is:
  A) Not using an attack with an incressed critical hit rate
  B) Not holding an item that would boost its crit rate
  C) Not under the effects of Focus Energy
  D) Does not have the ability Super Luck
  In times past, defensive stat boosting has proven to be less reliable than one might think, because random critical hits can turn the tide of battle too easily. I know I won several games that I shouldn't have when I got lucky against someone who I had allowed to boost to the point of near indestructablity. Removing the 1/16 chance for moves to crit would not only reduce the total amount of hax in the game, but also make defensive stat boosting more reliable, and increse the utility of high/auto crit moves.
  
  
• Re-adjust BP for autocrit charge up/recharge moves: This probably goes without saying, but the charge up moves need their power buffed from Gen 5 Next. They will be way too weak to use otherwise.
  
  
• Make Slash a 60 BP auto crit move, and give Persian signature Slash: 60(bp)*1.5(Tech)*1.5(Crit)*1.5(STAB)*1.5(Sig)=301.75 base power. Slightly more powerful than unboosted Dragonite's Outrage.
  In RBY, Persian had a guarantied critical hit with Slash, and that gave it a home in OU, dispite its lower bulk and attack, and worse coverage than other normal types in the tier. But sense the changes to critical hit mechanics in Gen 2, Persian has been in the lowest tier available every gen since then. This change would give it a new chance to become useful, even if it lacks the coverage that would be required to be a sweeper.
  
  
• Buff Sniper so that it also boosts accuracy by 1.3: Many of the moves that benefit from sniper and higher crit rates, like Stone Edge and Draco Meteor, are also somewhat unreliable in terms of accuracy. The word "sniper" is somewhat synonymous with "marksman" which means being skillful and accurate at shooting, so it would make sense for Pokémon with the ability Sniper to be more accurate with their attacks.
  
  
• Give Farfetch'd Sniper as an ability, and change Stick so that it gives +3 (100%) crit rate to Farfetch'd: If both these changes were made, this would basically boost Farfetch'd's attack stats by 225%, giving it an effective base attack of approximately 208 when fully invested.
  
  Mathematical Proof

  65*2+99=229, 229+22= 251, 251*2.25=564.75,
  565-51=514, 514-99=415, 415/2=207.5
  
  Giving a joke Pokemon this much power may seem a bit far fetched, (tee hee). But even with these changes, Farfetch'd, not unlike Pikachu, will likly suffer as a sweeper because of its poor bulk, speed, and inability to use another item. It needs that much power to be of any use at all.

 

[Zarel]

Well not anymore.

Yeah, I know. I'm still not doing any of my own stat changes because:

1. Hard to keep track of.
2. Hard to constrain, so difficult to decide exactly how to change stats.
2. Huge rabbit hole, so many things that could possibly change.

NEXT's current system of mainly buffing unpopular abilities is working surprisingly well for it.

 

[Inspector Spacetimre]

Suggestions for gen 6

Darmanitan's zen mode works like stance change: darmanitan changes to zen mode when he uses special or status attacks, and revert back when using physical moves.
Zen mode needs a boost it's pretty useless as it is, I doubt darminatan will become as strong as aegislash as he doesn't have any priority moves except protect. Zen mode does have strong stats but still a small movepool to use it.

Magician and pickpocket work with gems as in when you attack and use a gem, you also steal the opponent's item in the process, it worked like this briefly for delphox and it was actually kinda good. They don't seem to work at all atm.

Intrinsic bulletproof for pokemon with hard shells? Chesnaught now gets iron barbs as a hidden ability. A bit of a long shot but this would greatly lower the use of mega gengar as chesnaught pretty much walls common sets already.

Florges a grass/fairy type?

Powder deals damage when a fire move is used, I'm not sure how much damage it currently is, but 50-100% would be nice, if so could the move be given to the other moth/butterfly pokemon except volcarona obviously.

A higher base power for fell stinger? 50 base power?

 

[EDDR]

As a Mage/Wizard, I'm disappointed at the lack of variety of moves Delphox has. It should definitely have a tonne more coverage options such as Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam?, Dazzling Gleam, Focus Blast, Tri Attack, Stored Power and Nasty Plot.

Pyroar should get Boomburst because it learns a lot of Sound based moves and lions can be heard 5 miles away in a human's ear. It would help it escape the horrible defensive typing it gets by turning it's lackluster Normal typing into a strength with his stats holding him back.

Gyarados has to get Crunch... I don't know why it hasn't been given Crunch yet, it also allows it's Mega Form to have a stronger STAB.

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

Hey, it's me, Temporaryanonymous. Roomowner of the NEXT room on the main server of Pokemon Showdown. I thought I'd like to give some of my thoughts on generation six NEXT usage. I've been meaning to do this for a long time (starting when I wrote this tongue-in-cheek comparison of NEXT to gen 6: http://pastebin.com/7isExXZM). However, instead of suggesting a bunch of changes and what should be done, I'm going to talk a little bit about how the actual gameplay features and meta of gen six will affect NEXT and what should be changed.

I am assuming Zarel will change the BST of only the few pokemon that GF did, and going to implement fairy typing and the steel nerf.

1. Weather is no longer permanent. Zarel got this one right, but I think there shouldn't be any perma-weather at all. I mean, Cryogonal with snow warning or phione with drizzle is fine, but when you have permanent weather and abilities like swift swim, sand rush, chlorophyll and the opponent doesn't have a counter weather, it gets pretty unbalanced. If anything, the meta seems more weather dependent.

2. Steel was nerfed. This is really one thing I'm looking at here, and that's Shadow Ball. Shadow ball was buffed to compensate for losing focus blast, but with gen 6, that's no longer needed. Gengar gets Dazzling gleam for decent coverage as a replacement to focus blast, and one of the last things the meta needs are Gengar and Aegislash hurling 90BP 30% spD dropping shadow balls that rip through everything not normal or dark type.

3. Crits have been changed. To accommodate, the autocrit moves should have their powers multiplied by 3/4 to get the new values (although nobody will really mind if a move like razor wind is now 60bp autocrit as nobody actually used it. Farfetch'd probably also would really appreciate a +3crit stick instead of a +2 crit stick.

4. Some moves have been changed. The three that are probably the most important are hidden power, technoblast, and knock off. Hidden power makes all non technician pokemon lack a bit more coverage, and it also slightly nerfs NEXT unown, which isn't that big of a deal. I remember saying back then, that Technoblast was too weak, even with 1.1 boost and STAB. Now it sits at 110 base power. If Gensect-Douse uses it, it'd be a 181 base power water move, possibly backed by download. This probably needs tweaking. Knock off is less of an immediate changer to NEXT, but a 97 base power dark move that removes items is very strong, and a lot of pokemon would benefit from this.

5. New moves. Some of them are quite disappointing, like parabolic charge (damage buff?) or land's wrath (let it hit flying/levitate or through protect?). Those are probably the only two that stand out and need buffing.

6. Gen 6 OU. As a whole, it seems very fast paced, and as some have called it, priority based. The top 3 gen 6 mons in OU are probably Aegislash, Greninja, and Talonflame. Greninja doesn't really get any new fun tools to play with, but Aegislash gets automatize. With a +3 boost to speed, neutral speed Aegislash is able to match base 128's, and an automatize weakness policy set is pretty popular. Talonflame is partially held in check with stealth rock, but NEXT stealth rock only does 25% to it, making it significantly stronger. As a whole, stealth rock and other hazards should also be reconsidered as defog allows an easy way to remove them.

I can probably think of more later, but this is all that's on my mind as of right now.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

Since this is a pet mod, shouldn't it be moved to the pet mod thread when gen 6 becomes a thing?

 

[Jaguar360]

Yeah, I know. I'm still not doing any of my own stat changes because:

1. Hard to keep track of.
2. Hard to constrain, so difficult to decide exactly how to change stats.
2. Huge rabbit hole, so many things that could possibly change.

NEXT's current system of mainly buffing unpopular abilities is working surprisingly well for it.

Considering most stat changes have been +10, would it really be that difficult to keep track of them? They would only be for Pokemon that really need the changes making it about 20-30 Pokemon that get the stat changes. The changes would realistically be mostly for the newer Pokemon too. Obviously your call though.

 

[FTTsunami]

Well i made this banner for the NEXT room it would be cool if Zarel can check it out and put it in the room http://i.imgur.com/rDnPVrW.png thanks for reading if you did

 

[Spoderman]

I just wanted to point out, that due to the new egg move mechanics, Ambipom now learns sketch as much times as it wants.

 

[Pikachuun]

I just wanted to point out, that due to the new egg move mechanics, Ambipom now learns sketch as much times as it wants.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they'd handle it similar to Necturna and have it only learn sketch once by some other method. I know how Necturna's being handled in gen 6 not really because I asked the people in the CAP room in IRC and Showdown about it. So yeah, Ambipom will get sketch only once somehow.

 

[Lilfut]

Garbodor needs Gunk Shot as a signature move, as well as an expanded movepool. I'd recommend Muddy Water specifically off the top of my head, but he definitely needs more good type coverage than he has. The utter lack of Steel coverage is especially baffling, since he very clearly has metal tubing or wires sticking out of him.

Also, Flying Press should have buffed BP so that it's a viable alternative to High Jump Kick on Hawlucha.

 

[Mareep Sweep]

I'm absolutely in love with the concept of this mod. You've managed to fix some major aspects of standard play while keeping flavor and base stats intact, which is an impressive feat as far as metagame mods go. I'd be more than interested in playing this if it were to become an officially-supported "tier" similar to Hackmons and friends, which it should because it is 99% better and more diverse than BW OU will ever be.

YAY:

• UNOWN BUFF
• Intrinsic abilities
• SIGNATURE MOVES
• Galvantula buff
• Slow Start/Truant buffs
• Charge/Recharge moves buff (Sky Attack Sniper Fearow looks great on paper)
• King Shuckle buff, Leech Seed specifically
• Clear Body buff
• Sketch Ambipom
• Echoed Voice
• Stealth Rock nerf

NAY:

• GossamerWing/Quiver Dance nerf (GWing Seems too specific of an item, and I would have just sent Volcarona straight to Ubers)
• Life Orb nerf

Regardless, the amount of effort put into this is evident, and I commend you for creating the one metagame mod that puts flavor first above everything.

Volcarona doesnt get affected with gossamer wing iirc therefore its not op (please correct me if im wrong), also, i dont remember reading that the life orb was nerfed, but it is now affected by reckless and rock head which is pretty damn awesome, making aerodactyl a nice life orb user also with the rock slide accuracy buff, and as always stealth rock or taunt support. I used to play it quite a lot and heres a really nice set for hitmonlee:

(Hitmonlee) @ Focus Band
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Jump Kick
- Blaze Kick
- Reversal
- Earthquake

For who forgot, focus band got a buff in this mod and now is the PERFECT item for hitmonlee, it fits him PERFECTLY.
I also am aware that i must've answered this about really late but just wanted to tip out some stuff.

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

Next has been updated! We must give our thanks to the almighty diatom for his blessings.
Gen six as a whole so far...looks great! No really broken bugs or anything, and it feels very fresh and fun to play. Certain things to note:

The NEXT manifesto says all hidden abilities are released, but NEXT right now still doesn't allow the usage of hidden abilities on certain pokemon (I've tested

Genesect is still banned. I assume it should be unbanned since it needs a drive to get the download boost?

Next stealth rock as applied to gen six will probably see the rise of more Talonflame and mega Charizard.

Charge move turns are still good (Samurott is still very strong) and the only real lose is technician Roserade solar beam which isn't too big of a loss.

The new confusion mechanics seem fine at the moment. Seems pretty balanced from what I've seen of it so far.

Parabolic charge is really cool. Heliolisk definitely appreciates this superior cm and it's great for forcing pressure. While you're helping Heliolisk, could you also give it solar beam? It's a lizard based on the sun with weather connections, surely it should at least get solar beam?

Some old pokemon got the shaft. Besides the shadow taggers and water types that really liked old adaptability, Unown is pretty much useless with the hp power drop and the change in adaptability. Maybe give it protean or change theUnown and stick interaction? Vivillon also should the gossamer wing but Vivillon and Butterfree have very similar roles, with both having compound eyes, sleep powder, quiver dance, and hurricane.

I mentioned autotomize before, but I'm bringing it up again because of weakness policy autotomize Aegislash, which is very strong. At a +3 boost, neutral Aegislash can tie with max speed base 128's and with a -spe nature, +3 Aegislash is one point faster than max speed base 110's. This also allows Aegislash to possibly run a double dance sweeper set.

Do megas get the signature bonus on moves their unmega forms get? This is important because of Banette. Banette has a signature boost on shadow sneak, but if Mega Banette has a signature boost on it as well, that's really scary. To put how scary that is in perspective, Mega Banette with shadow sneak allows it to bypass its poor speed and hit harder than Mega Scizor's bullet punch. I think the majority of users think megas should retain signature boosts, but in this case, Banette's signature move should be changed to shadow claw. This still gives Banette a buff, and it gives Banette a way to really hit things and also fits into Banette's role as a glass cannon like pokemon.

Some remnants from gen 5 next are still very powerful and could probably use a change. Lapras and Snorlax are two prime offenders of curse+rest+snore, a very powerful combo given snore's mechanics. With the ability to hit every single type (on the special defense side too!) and having 100 base power, snore should probably receive a nerf like changing it to 80 base power. Furthermore, Snorlax and Lapras are still very frustrating to kill as one has 160/65/110 stats with no weaknesses and the other has 130/80/95 bulk that blocks 58 damage per hit and also stops critical hits, making it nearly impossible to stop once it has boosted up. There's not many ways to stop boosting like this, and it's very frustrating when a pokemon suddenly sweeps an entire team because it can't be phazed. (fun fact, mega Kangakshan's seismic toss needs 3 hits to kill Snorlax and does pitiful damage to Lapras due to shell armor)

Echoed voice was very powerful back in the day (effectively 160 base power) and being a better hyper voice, but it is stronger when combined with pixilate that Sylveon and mega Gardevoir have. I think a small nerf should happen to echoed voice when it's a move that has no real draw backs (besides turn delay), bypasses subs, and is the strongest non-suicidal move non-recharge move besides V-create. It's like boomburst, only over 200 pokemon get access to it.

Weather hasn't been as common in gen six so far, but that's because I suspect we have too many shiny new toys to play around with before reverting back to weather wars.

Finally, I'd keep an eye out for the stronger megas like Kangaskhan, Gengar, Blaziken, and Lucario. Kangaskhan has its double seismic toss, Gengar gets a turn of trapping, Blaziken gets extra bulk and sweeping potential, and Lucario gets a 1.3 boost on extremespeed which could be deadly when combined with swords dance and crunch or ice punch.

 

[Zarel]

Next has been updated! We must give our thanks to the almighty diatom for his blessings.

thanks diatom

The NEXT manifesto says all hidden abilities are released, but NEXT right now still doesn't allow the usage of hidden abilities on certain pokemon (I've tested

will fix

Genesect is still banned. I assume it should be unbanned since it needs a drive to get the download boost?

will fix

Next stealth rock as applied to gen six will probably see the rise of more Talonflame and mega Charizard.

Talonflame has NEXT-specific checks in Rhyperior and Diancie. I should probably buff Diancie some way. It gets 100% accurate Diamond Storm, but I wonder if something else would help, too.

The Megazards are worrying me, though; I forgot about them. We'll have to pay attention to them.

Charge move turns are still good (Samurott is still very strong) and the only real lose is technician Roserade solar beam which isn't too big of a loss.

;_; it was nice knowing you, Roserade

Grass was unfortunately never a good type to spam.

The new confusion mechanics seem fine at the moment. Seems pretty balanced from what I've seen of it so far.

k

Parabolic charge is really cool. Heliolisk definitely appreciates this superior cm and it's great for forcing pressure. While you're helping Heliolisk, could you also give it solar beam? It's a lizard based on the sun with weather connections, surely it should at least get solar beam?

idk, Parabolic Charge is already really strong...

Some old pokemon got the shaft. Besides the shadow taggers and water types that really liked old adaptability, Unown is pretty much useless with the hp power drop and the change in adaptability. Maybe give it protean or change theUnown and stick interaction? Vivillon also should the gossamer wing but Vivillon and Butterfree have very similar roles, with both having compound eyes, sleep powder, quiver dance, and hurricane.

Accepting suggestions for a new Unown buff. Maybe Telepathy? Another idea is Shadow Tag. (One of these is much stronger than the other.)

Vivillon should get Gossamer Wing, yes.

I mentioned autotomize before, but I'm bringing it up again because of weakness policy autotomize Aegislash, which is very strong. At a +3 boost, neutral Aegislash can tie with max speed base 128's and with a -spe nature, +3 Aegislash is one point faster than max speed base 110's. This also allows Aegislash to possibly run a double dance sweeper set.

Fiiiiine...

Do megas get the signature bonus on moves their unmega forms get? This is important because of Banette. Banette has a signature boost on shadow sneak, but if Mega Banette has a signature boost on it as well, that's really scary. To put how scary that is in perspective, Mega Banette with shadow sneak allows it to bypass its poor speed and hit harder than Mega Scizor's bullet punch. I think the majority of users think megas should retain signature boosts, but in this case, Banette's signature move should be changed to shadow claw. This still gives Banette a buff, and it gives Banette a way to really hit things and also fits into Banette's role as a glass cannon like pokemon.

Is that really that much of a problem, though? Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch isn't that strong; it's got nothin' on Talonflame BB or even CB Scizor's BP. And Mega Scizor gets SD. Banette can't boost Atk except by getting lucky with Psych Up.

Some remnants from gen 5 next are still very powerful and could probably use a change. Lapras and Snorlax are two prime offenders of curse+rest+snore, a very powerful combo given snore's mechanics. With the ability to hit every single type (on the special defense side too!) and having 100 base power, snore should probably receive a nerf like changing it to 80 base power. Furthermore, Snorlax and Lapras are still very frustrating to kill as one has 160/65/110 stats with no weaknesses and the other has 130/80/95 bulk that blocks 58 damage per hit and also stops critical hits, making it nearly impossible to stop once it has boosted up. There's not many ways to stop boosting like this, and it's very frustrating when a pokemon suddenly sweeps an entire team because it can't be phazed. (fun fact, mega Kangakshan's seismic toss needs 3 hits to kill Snorlax and does pitiful damage to Lapras due to shell armor)

lol, I remember Lapras being a huge threat, but Snorlax? Special setup can usually muscle past it, as well as sufficiently strong physical setup or phazing.

If Snore is nerfed, it should probably be made straight Special, and then Snorlax should get it signature, which hopefully allows it to retain decent damage potential.

Echoed voice was very powerful back in the day (effectively 160 base power) and being a better hyper voice, but it is stronger when combined with pixilate that Sylveon and mega Gardevoir have. I think a small nerf should happen to echoed voice when it's a move that has no real draw backs (besides turn delay), bypasses subs, and is the strongest non-suicidal move non-recharge move besides V-create. It's like boomburst, only over 200 pokemon get access to it.

No one used Doom Desire back in the day, with 140 ebp...

But yeah, Pixilate sort of ruins Echoed Voice, as well as new gen 6 sound move mechanics. Maybe it should be 60/80 instead of 80/80? Or even 40/80? 50/100?

Weather hasn't been as common in gen six so far, but that's because I suspect we have too many shiny new toys to play around with before reverting back to weather wars.

I sorta liked NEXT weather wars. :< How's about we nerf Rain and Sun down to 1.3x Water/Fire damage and 0.7x Fire/Water damage? Can I keep permaweather then?

Finally, I'd keep an eye out for the stronger megas like Kangaskhan, Gengar, Blaziken, and Lucario. Kangaskhan has its double seismic toss, Gengar gets a turn of trapping, Blaziken gets extra bulk and sweeping potential, and Lucario gets a 1.3 boost on extremespeed which could be deadly when combined with swords dance and crunch or ice punch.

I think none of them are particularly worrisome. I'm still mostly worried about Talonflame, which is really centralizing in regular OU right now (and is most of the reason Rotom-W is now number 1 in usage). Fucking 180ebp priority... what were they thinking? :|

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

idk, Parabolic Charge is already really strong...

This one is pretty thematic though. It even has sun in its name. I don't think adding solar beam to heliolisk will be the straw that breaks it, but it'd be neat thematically for it, and give it more options, especially for what it's built around (weather complement)

Accepting suggestions for a new Unown buff. Maybe Telepathy? Another idea is Shadow Tag. (One of these is much stronger than the other.)

Increased damage/stat boost with stick? Telepathy to block other hidden power? Shadow Tag or Arena Trap (a huge bunch of unown blocking the opponent like in the movies), all seem fine.

Fiiiiine...

I wasn't saying it should be nerfed outright, but it should be something that's at least looked at (like the megas I mentioned) because it seems very strong on paper. But a lot of things are strong on paper but don't hold up in OU.

Is that really that much of a problem, though? Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch isn't that strong; it's got nothin' on Talonflame BB or even CB Scizor's BP. And Mega Scizor gets SD. Banette can't boost Atk except by getting lucky with Psych Up.

The real problem is Mega Banette's role as an all out suicide attacker. With access to a 165 base attack, priority attacks, status, and what it's built for, a priority destiny bond, Mega Banette can usually cripple or kill at least one pokemon in a game. Giving it signature shadow sneak seems like it'll push the kill count for Mega Banette higher.

lol, I remember Lapras being a huge threat, but Snorlax? Special setup can usually muscle past it, as well as sufficiently strong physical setup or phazing.

If Snore is nerfed, it should probably be made straight Special, and then Snorlax should get it signature, which hopefully allows it to retain decent damage potential.

If Snore becomes purely special I think it'd help since most curse restsnore don't invest in special attack, although this brings up the issue of calmmind restsnore. The problem with getting rid of these super bulky pokemon is that they can't be phazed if they're the last pokemon out (and it makes games more frustrating for the player who had the advantage) and just setting up 1 curse when they have the opportunity makes them very hard to kill, not to mention being threatened by the now +1 tank. Setting up alongside Snorlax usually isn't an option since it still deals big damage with moves like Return, Snore, or Crunch, and Snorlax can even phaze with whirlwind.

No one used Doom Desire back in the day, with 140 ebp...But yeah, Pixilate sort of ruins Echoed Voice, as well as new gen 6 sound move mechanics. Maybe it should be 60/80 instead of 80/80? Or even 40/80? 50/100?

Well with a testing session here: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gennextou-97891612 a few things can be found out about Echoed voice (as it stands now)
1. The first hit will get affected by pixilate/refrigerate
2. The second hit is not affected by pixilate/refrigerate
3. The second hit will not affect ghosts (tested in a later game)
4. Both hits go through protect
I'd say to first make both hits affected by pixilate/refrigerate, and make it not go through protect (I checked the Readme again to make sure there was nothing saying it should). As for balancing the damage, I think it should be balanced compared to Hyper Voice and Boomburst, so somewhere around the ballpark of 90-140 total damage for one shot. But, of course, the thing about Echoed voice is balanced by it being like doom desire so you can't stack echoes. This means within 3 turns, the total damage of echo voicing 3 times would be 320. An average of 106 base power. Hyper voice does 270 damage over 3 turns and boomburst does 420 damage over 3 turns. There's still a few things to consider about echoed voice as well, do you want the second hit to do more, less, or the same damage as the first?

I sorta liked NEXT weather wars. :< How's about we nerf Rain and Sun down to 1.3x Water/Fire damage and 0.7x Fire/Water damage? Can I keep permaweather then?

I think the problem is less about the damage boost and more about the speed increases. Having an almost guaranteed advantage in speed over the opponent is huge and gamechanging.

I think none of them are particularly worrisome. I'm still mostly worried about Talonflame, which is really centralizing in regular OU right now (and is most of the reason Rotom-W is now number 1 in usage). Fucking 180ebp priority... what were they thinking? :|

Again, I haven't seen Talonflame used too much in NEXT yet, but that's likely because we're all playing with the fancy new toys that NEXT has. If Talonflame is too troublesome, gale wings can always be changed (make it not give priority but something else like more damage or increase speed)

 

[Zarel]

Hm. I might want to remove the crit prevention from the armors. Autocrit moves are supposed to be wallbreaker moves.

 

[Cobalt314]

I have a few ideas on possible rules. I was looking at my favorite Steel-type Pokémon, Klinklang, and I noticed that it needed a few buffs if it is to become OU-viable, since I always wanted to use it in the tier. So, I'll propose the following changes. Bear in mind that they're all within reason, and though not all of them will affect the metagame, none of them are too bizarre.

1. Since Klinklang is floating, I suggest either replacing one of its main abilities (or both) with Levitate, to make it live up to its sprite's appearance. Alternatively, what can be done instead is give each Pokémon that appears Flying/Levitating (as well as Flying types, of course) a Ground immunity, plus another ability if Levitate was its former ability.
2. If the second aforementioned change has been implemented, I suggest a signature ability called Rusting Machine (I'm unsure about the name, but it exactly fits the 15-character limit. I was also thinking about using "Oxidizing Metal" and "Rusty Mechanism"). Its effect is raising the user's Def and SDef one stage every turn in battle, but cutting 10% of the user's HP every time it's Defense is raised in this manner. This will make the ability more balanced, but I don't know whether it's still too good. If it is, I was thinking of either increasing the amount of HP lost, like 15%, or whether to continue making it lose HP even after it reaches +6/+6.
   
3. Change Klinklang's typing to Electric/Steel (or Steel/Electric). Klinklang is based on interlocking gears, and gears are usually used in electronic mechanisms. Also, it learns a lot of Electric-type moves, like Wild Charge and Charge Beam.
4. Change Shift Gear's Boosts to +1 Atk, +1 SAtk, +2 Spd. That way, it not only makes it a signature move worth using a Pokémon for, but also allows a special attacking moveset (With Flash Cannon, Discharge, etc.)
5. Expand Klinklang's movepool. This is one of the main reasons why it doesn't see much use outside of RU. I recommend adding the following moves, as they are all viable moves that one can see Klinklang using in the real world, should it exist: Head Smash, Flamethrower/Lava Plume/Flame Burst/Will-O-Wisp/Flare Blitz (Electrical energy converted to thermal energy), Earthquake (Some gears can be really heavy if made from the right material and having the right diameter), Overheat (because some gears can, well, you know...). If you find more logical moves, feel free to use them as well.
6. Make Klinklang's Offensive stats equivalent. I know that this violates the "changing base stats" rule, but GameFreak did that to a few Pokémon like Scolipede and Nidoking. So, I suggest making its offenses either both 90, or, if that's too big of a change, just increase SAtk to 80. That way, the special sets become more viable.

So, this is all I've come up with. I know it's a lot, but you can see my dedication to making a rarely used Pokémon much more significant and threatening. Feel free to rave/rant whatever you want.

 

[Zarel]

A good start, but unfortunately many of your proposed changes go against NEXT's rules.

Specifically:

- We don't add abilities to Pokémon except in special situations. We especially don't add Levitate for flavor reasons, and because I don't want Levitate to be too common.

- We don't add moves. The teambuilder doesn't support that, and there are plenty of existing noncompetitive moves to tweak to our liking, anyway.

- We don't retype, except formes. Game Freak has never done a retype except for formes or while introducing a new type.

- We don't change stats, even if Game Freak does. There's a variety of reasons, but mainly because it's hard to constrain and it's hard to keep track of separate stats for NEXT and OU.

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

Adaptability is now 1.33x to non-STAB moves instead of to STAB moves

Porygon-Z really likes the new Adaptability mechanics, now that it gets a psudo Tough Claws boost on BoltBeam. It losses very little power by forgoing STAB entirely on a double dance set, so it can be a more flexible Sweeper. It does lose out on STAB Adaptability Hyper Beam for wallbreaking, but I'm not sure how valuable that would have been to begin with.
Mega-Luke is still scary, but it will probably be more predictable than before, now that its Extreme Speed is stronger and its Vacuum Wave is weaker, making Physical sets seem generally better than special sets.
Everything else with Adaptability really loses out. Crawdaunt is really hurt, as it kinda needed that 80 BP Aqua Jet to have a chance of being very viable with it's low speed and mediocre bulk. I think it needs a new buff to make up for this loss. Perhaps giving it Tough Claws, or giving Hyper Cutter the same effect as Tough Claws would work. All of its best moves make contact, and it works thematically.

Parental Bond now deals half damage on both hits, but confers perfect accuracy like all multi-hit moves.

In NEXT, M-Kang gains Strength as a viable move, which is 3 times as powerful as PuP, and is likely to grant at least 1 attack boost, and because of its psudo No Guard, it actually can run Dynamic Punch and Mega Kick effectively as well.

Egg Bomb is now 40 base power autocrit

I assume this isn't updated for gen 6 mechanics yet.

Focus Blast has 30% accuracy (use HP Fighting unless you have No Guard)

THIRTY!? Is this a typo? The only things that could use it effectively before when it was 50% accurate were No Guard Infernape, and Victory Star Victini, the latter of which only boosted FB's accuracy up to 75%! Was Focus Blast Victini really so powerful that it needed to be nerfed even farther? Either this is a typo, or Focus Blast killed your family and you're still seeking vengeance. There are no other rational explanations.
For that matter, why did it even get nerfed in the first place? Focus Blast is one of the few special moves that wasn't nerfed by GF this gen because of how terrible it is, yet here it's one of the 2 that have been.

 

[Zarel]

Everything else with Adaptability really loses out. Crawdaunt is really hurt, as it kinda needed that 80 BP Aqua Jet to have a chance of being very viable with it's low speed and mediocre bulk. I think it needs a new buff to make up for this loss. Perhaps giving it Tough Claws, or giving Hyper Cutter the same effect as Tough Claws would work. All of its best moves make contact, and it works thematically.

Crawdaunt was never OU viable, and hasn't been buffed by NEXT. Like Gothitelle, it's a pretty low priority.

I assume this isn't updated for gen 6 mechanics yet.

It's entirely a flavor thing (I don't think any mon actually has a use for Egg Bomb).

THIRTY!? Is this a typo? The only things that could use it effectively before when it was 50% accurate were No Guard Infernape, and Victory Star Victini, the latter of which only boosted FB's accuracy up to 75%! Was Focus Blast Victini really so powerful that it needed to be nerfed even farther? Either this is a typo, or Focus Blast killed your family and you're still seeking vengeance. There are no other rational explanations.

No, it was just so it was clearer to people that they shouldn't be using Focus Blast. Why does it matter if no one else should be using it, anyway?

For that matter, why did it even get nerfed in the first place? Focus Blast is one of the few special moves that wasn't nerfed by GF this gen because of how terrible it is, yet here it's one of the 2 that have been.

Because one of NEXT's goals was to make types "more different" so the type chart isn't the only thing that matters when choosing types. Game Freak did it in Gen 6 by giving Grass-types powder-immunity, Ghost-types trap-immunity, and Electric-types paralysis-immunity. NEXT is trying to do this by, among other things, making Special Fighting moves much rarer.