Pokémon Talonflame

[Hidious]

Who would be a good partner for Talonflame? a few of the ones I'm thinking of that can switch into common rock, electric and water attacks are Breloom (against everything but slowbro) and ferrothorn

talonflame absolutely needs someone to remove stealth rock so excadrill, starmie, mega blastoise, and defog users are solid teammates. Our speedy firebird also needs threats like tyranitar and rotom w checked so ferrothorn is a good teammate. Ferrothorn can also set up rocks to help talonflame clean up

 

[AOPSUser]

Counter: Switches in on any move and then kills or forces a switch.
Check: Comes in after a pokemon died to revenge kill, or, is able to switch in on some but not all possible moves.

Counters:
Heatran, especially physically defensive heatran, is probably the best counter. But some Talonflames use Roost, so you probably need to carry Earth Power or Hidden Power Rock or Ancient Power or Roar to actually beat it. Use the opportunity to set up stealth rock, then use the move of choice to kill it or roar it out.

Tyranitar, comes in and causes sandstorm, which will tell you if it is using leftovers or not. Has many options to kill talonflame, including stone miss, thunderbolt, and dark STABs. Susceptible to u-turn.

Hippowdon with maximum hp and defense takes 65 - 76.66% from a +2 Gem Acrobatics, or, 35.71 - 42.14% from two CB Brave Birds. Needs stone miss to get the kill though.

Rhyperior, Golem, Gliscor, Donphan, Regirock, eviolite Rhydon, and Gigalith function similarly. Some of them have the 100% accurate Smack Down to use, or the more rewarding Head Smash.

Slowbro at near maximum defenses takes 31.47 - 37.05% from CB u-turn, or, 39.84 - 47.2% from CB Brave bird, or, 73.09 - 86.04% from +2 Gem Acrobatics.

Gyarados, maximum defensive bulk gyarados with intimidate and leftovers. Switches in and intimidates talonflame, who may have possibly used Swords Dance. +1 Flying Gem Acrobatics does 68.02 - 80.2%, but waterfall kills it in return. Two -1 CB Brave Birds does 32.99 - 39.08% x2. Leftovers are important to avoid SR.

Salamence, (maximum defensive bulk with leftovers) functions just like gyarados, it even has the same base HP and almost exactly the same base defense. Survives +1 Gem Acrobatics and ohkos back.

Landorus-T is similar. Slightly lower base HP but slightly higher base Def. Crucially is only neutral to SR, meaning it does not need leftovers

Mandibuzz: maximum defense bulky takes 70.21 - 82.97% from +2 flying gem acrobatics and ohkos back with Foul Play

Umbreon would take 73.09 - 86.04% from +2 gem acrobatics and ohko back with Foul Play

Rotom-W or Rotom-H, if you invest in some defences then you can handle anything it does to you and ohko back with hydro pump or thunderbolt or possibly voltswitch.

Aggron, with maximum hp and defense, takes 31.68 - 37.79% from CB Flareblitz or 54.65 - 65.11% from +2 LO Flare Blitz

Kabutops switches in to anything and ohkos

Omastar, Carracosta, Relicanth, and Barbacle do the same.

Ampharos at maximum defenses takes 52.6 - 61.97% from CB Flare Blitz when it switches in, followed by like 25% after it megaevolves and ohkos with STAB

A lot of those "counters" you listed cannot take two attacks if Talonflame is already at +2. A counter has to be able to switch in at any time and do it with 100% certainty. Anything that is 2HKOed by this thing at +2 is not a certain counter. Most notably, Salamence never runs a full defensive set and cannot avoid being OHKOed after SR (or even before!) normally. Mandibuzz, Slowbro, and Umbreon will fall to a crit, so they are not 100% counters even if they switch in on Swords Dance. Some of the Rock/Waters get 2HKOed if using an offensive set, and using a purely defensive Kabutops seems like a waste of its potential.

The Rock/Waters are really nice though since they cannot be trapped reliably by Dugtrio, making them valuable counters to have. It's just a bit hard to justify using Relicanth in OU for anything else. Notably, many of Talonflame's checks and counters are lower-tiered, with the only currently OU ones being Heatran, Rotom-W, and Tyranitar. This kind of reminds me of BW1 Terrakion, haha.

 

[azureleaf17]

I think it's really funny that this thing went from "Meh, it might make UU," to "Okay, this thing just ate my team alive." Seriously, why did Game Freak feel it necessary to give something the ability to hit things with a priority STAB move with at least 110 BP? Technician Scizor didn't hit hard enough?

That being said... Talonflame absolutely needs Brave Bird/Acrobatics + Flare Blitz. Its niche (albeit a very, very good one) IS priority on that stupidly powerful Flying STAB; otherwise, it really wouldn't have much of a use and it would probably just be too similar to Staraptor with better Speed but worse Attack. Anything weaker than those STABs is going to do jack diddly squat for damage coming off of an attack stat that's on the low side of average. Most everything is filler, but Flame Charge and Steel Wing are pretty poor options, seeing that it really doesn't need the speed boost from Flame Charge (it already has priority and 126 base Speed) and Steel Wing's coverage is really, really bad, seeing that most of the resists to Flying/Fire coverage aren't going to take any more damage from Steel Wing anyway (in fact, I think Steel Wing may hit Tyranitar for more damage than its STABs and... that's it for OU relevant Pokemon...)

 

[56k]

A lot of those "counters" you listed cannot take two attacks if Talonflame is already at +2. A counter has to be able to switch in at any time and do it with 100% certainty. Anything that is 2HKOed by this thing at +2 is not a certain counter.

Ok, I will edit my post to say that these guys are counters when Talonflame has just switched in fresh. If Talonflame just switched in on you, then, you can definitely safely switch in any of those pokemon. If Talonflame switched in and you let it SD while you used protect or heal bell or something, then many of those counter pokemon will fail.

 

[Hidious]

Anything that can take any +2 attack from talonflame and ohko back is the very definition of a counter. Why does it have to take 2 +2 attacks? Talonflame isn't going to be sashed and it is just dumb play to let it set up on you when you have a counter.

 

[Arcticblast]

Anything that can take any +2 attack from talonflame and ohko back is the very definition of a counter. Why does it have to take 2 +2 attacks? Talonflame isn't going to be sashed and it is just dumb play to let it set up on you when you have a counter.

To actually counter something, you need to be able to switch in on anything it can throw at you and either survive a second hit or force it out before it can move (either by outspeeding and KOing or threatening to do so).

 

[Goutland]

To actually counter something, you need to be able to switch in on anything it can throw at you and either survive a second hit or force it out before it can move (either by outspeeding and KOing or threatening to do so).

This doesn't make his post wrong though.

Say your counter is Rotom-W. You switch into brave bird, take another one and OHKO it back. Boom. Countered. Alternatively, you switch into Talonflame as it uses SD. You live the +2 hit and OHKO back. Still countered. There's no situation where you'd ever have to take two +2 hits to counter something (if you OHKO), otherwise your counter isn't really a counter.

 

[Thorhammer]

To actually counter something, you need to be able to switch in on anything it can throw at you and either survive a second hit or force it out before it can move (either by outspeeding and KOing or threatening to do so).

If it's setting up, then it only gets one hit. If Rotom switches in on Brave Bird or Flare Blitz, it just has to be able to survive a second unboosted hit. If it switches in on Swords Dance, Talonflame only gets to attack once for double power. Either way, Talonflame can't beat a healthy Rotom-W.

We don't judge counters based on being able to take multiple hits after a sweeper gets an absurd amount of setup. If we were looking at it that way, we'd say Talonflame gets to +6 every time and destroys everything. And just as any player should be able to keep it from getting it to +6, any player with a Rotom can get it on the field in time to avoid taking two +2 attacks.

 

[Hidious]

To actually counter something, you need to be able to switch in on anything it can throw at you and either survive a second hit or force it out before it can move (either by outspeeding and KOing or threatening to do so).

Like I said, if you can ohko, you need only to take 1 +2 hit ( or 2 normal hits) because it is illogical to let it set up on your likely disadvantaged mon when you have the counter you can switch in. Counters in the hands of bad players are still counters, albeit incorrectly used ones.

 

[56k]

Everything on that list can switch into anything that Talonflame can throw at you and either survive a second hit or force it out before it can move (either by outspeeding and KOing or threatening to do so). They can also win in the situation if Talonflame used SD on the switch, and then they can survive one +2 Gem Boosted Acrobatics or a +2 Flare Blitz. SOME of them can survive two or three or four +2 Attacks, but if you just switch in your counter immediately then that will never happen.



It's a pretty big list.

 

[Arcticblast]

yeah whoops I misread that, carry on

To get back on topic I guess, some of the checks/counters 56k listed are pretty situational and don't seem worth running over a better Pokemon or set. Max/max physically defensive Gyarados and Salamence? Non-Mega Aggron? Umbreon? I just don't see any use for these sets outside of specifically beating Talonflame (and Umbreon won't exactly like CB U-Turns). I'd rather just bring in Heatran or Tyranitar and take my chances at getting double switched on than run some niche set that has no use outside of beating Talonflame.

EDIT: heh there's a user named Talonflame viewing this thread

 

[56k]

I've used the max/max gyarados on a stall team and with resttalk it's pretty good in my opinion. I also use Mandibuzz right now which is tremendous because it counters talonflame, aegislash, dragonite, and most garchomps. I agree Umbreon is not a very good pokemon unless you really want heal bell on your team.

I don't think hippowdon is a good choice for a talonflame counter because it's specially defensive set does so much more work. I'm currently trying out ampharos/megaapharos, which is pretty bulky and has a slow volt switch. I don't think it's a very good pokemon though.

The rock/water types are really really hard to justify a teamslot. They are the kind of pokemon that need to be built around.

Heatran, Rotom-W, Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, and Landorus-T are the best ones imo. They are very splashable pokemon without much thought needed to incorporate it into your team.

 

[Zazazaki]

Talonflame @ Flying Gem
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Speed
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Roost / Tailwind

The EVs allow it to outspeed MegaPinsir, and therefore it's Quick Attack and destroy it with a boosted Acrobatics. This thing is a real monster, capable of demolishin a lot of pokemon, especially if it grabs a SD boost, which isn't as hard as someone might think. Even Defensive Gliscor takes minimum 77,97% with a +2 Acrobatics, assumin the gem is used on that attack. Offensive one is OHKOed with a gem and takes 80,76% minimum without. Personally took down many team's members before the fiery bird succumbed to attacks.

 

[Thorhammer]

Talonflame @ Flying Gem
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Speed
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Roost / Tailwind

The EVs allow it to outspeed MegaPinsir, and therefore it's Quick Attack and destroy it with a boosted Acrobatics. This thing is a real monster, capable of demolishin a lot of pokemon, especially if it grabs a SD boost, which isn't as hard as someone might think. Even Defensive Gliscor takes minimum 77,97% with a +2 Acrobatics, assumin the gem is used on that attack. Offensive one is OHKOed with a gem and takes 80,76% minimum without. Personally took down many team's members before the fiery bird succumbed to attacks.

Flying Gem is not available and the gems were nerfed anyway.

 

[Zazazaki]

Flying Gem is not available and the gems were nerfed anyway.

Hmmm, true, looked it up, didn't knew they were nerfed to 30% boost. That kinda sucks. Well, guess we can replace Acrobatics with Brave Bird then, and with Life Orb (which will hit insanely hard but get you killed fast), Lum Berry or Lefties. The principle of the set posted above remains the same otherwise.

 

[Kyreth]

Yeah. With the reduced gem boost, priority BB > priority Acrobatics for damage. And Talonflame's best defense is killing the opponent, even if it beats itself up doing it.

 

[Darkflagrance]

I've been testing out both Life Orb and Sharp Beak. I tend to prefer the Life Orb even with Brave Bird recoil to ensure that I get the instakills I need. I also like U-Turn for fleeing Talonflame's slow counters while dealing some damage if I send it in to revenge a prematurely set up sweeper.

 

[AlexArthur]

With the powerful priority courtesy of Gale Wings what sort of speed evs are people running? Any particular bench marks we can hit? What fast targets are hit harder by Flare Blitz than Brave Bird?

 

[Zazazaki]

With the powerful priority courtesy of Gale Wings what sort of speed evs are people running? Any particular bench marks we can hit? What fast targets are hit harder by Flare Blitz than Brave Bird?

My personal opinion is to hit speeds to outspeed positive base 100s, sooo .. 329 could work (while havin Adamant), or just enough to outspeed 105's, like .. 340 speed (with Adamant again), so you can hit MegaPinsir first. You won't find any steels to be faster than base 100, anyway, and if you are in when Lucario comes in and hasn't Mega evolved yet, you outspeed him too, anyway (unless if he goes for Extremespeed of course).

 

[Exeggutive]

How about solar beam power herb over sd to get past rotom w.

 

[farranpoison]

How about solar beam power herb over sd to get past rotom w.

Or how about switching to a counter, rather than wasting an item slot to take down one counter, and that's iffy at best due to Talonflame's terrible SpAtk?

If you want to use a SpAtk move, try Overheat to dent physical walls somewhat. Otherwise, it's not really efficient.

 

[Maestro72]

Imo there are three speed targets to outrun. Excadrill, Jirachi, and shockingly enough Terrakion. The first two can bethreatened with flare blitz whereas the last one threatens us with stone miss. If you're not running uturn however outspeeding Terrakion is a moot point.

 

[Arcticblast]

Or how about switching to a counter, rather than wasting an item slot to take down one counter, and that's iffy at best due to Talonflame's terrible SpAtk?

If you want to use a SpAtk move, try Overheat to dent physical walls somewhat. Otherwise, it's not really efficient.

Granted base 74 and base 81 aren't that much different...

I've actually been trying out a mixed attacker on PokeBank to smack physical walls and surprise Heatran. I'm on my phone right now and can't post it, but the moves are Brave Bird / Overheat / HP Ground / U-turn. It's not going too badly, although like Talonflame it still struggles to switch in.

 

[Zazazaki]

Imo there are three speed targets to outrun. Excadrill, Jirachi, and shockingly enough Terrakion. The first two can bethreatened with flare blitz whereas the last one threatens us with stone miss. If you're not running uturn however outspeeding Terrakion is a moot point.

Terrakion resists Flare Blitz, your best bet with it is it bein weakened or you boosted enough, so you can strike it with a priority BB. Otherwise, you can't do much to it. Therefore I don't see you needin to outspeed Terrakion's max speed. Base 105's should be the benchmark imo, for, once again, MegaPinsir's Quick Attack.

 

[Maestro72]

That's te="Zazazaki, post: 4970307, member: 201367"]Terrakion resists Flare Blitz, your best bet with it is it bein weakened or you boosted enough, so you can strike it with a priority BB. Otherwise, you can't do much to it. Therefore I don't see you needin to outspeed Terrakion's max speed. Base 105's should be the benchmark imo, for, once again, MegaPinsir's Quick Attack.[/quote]
Thats why I said unless you run uturn its a moot point. Though I do agree w MePinsir as an upper limit for offwnse.

Edit I hate my ph service