Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[McMeghan]

As promised, the OU Council will now open a discussion thread before deciding weither or not we should quick-ban something.

As you guys can guess, this is where discussion on the tiering status of the Gengarite will take place. I implore each and every one of you to add to the discussion with well thought out reasoning describing why you feel that the Gengarite should be Uber or OU. This topic will be left open until whatever point we feel the discussion has reached its conclusion.

Yes, I totally ripped off Jabba's post. Note that the thread has been posted in the Policy Review subforum as well.

RBG Edit: adding post 383 to the front post so people don't have to search for it

After reading the last 10 pages of this thread I think I should make clear that its purpose is not to let everyone express their philosophical approach to the tiering process, but rather to gather information on how Mega Gengar's presence in the metagame is perceived by the playerbase. If you're going to vote "no" just because you, ontologically, believe that M-Gengar's "brokenness" should be proved via a formal suspect test, then you're really missing the point of this thread.

While the pro-ban side has made numerous extremely solid arguments to support their stance, the only relevant anti-ban argument I've seen so far is contained in this post. You're being given the opportunity to potentially influence our final decision and many of you are wasting it by making posts on how quick bans don't match their banning philosophy. For those who think that "the community has nothing to lose" from running a formal suspect test, I really advise that you read the post below:


Finally, since probably many of you weren't around when this thread was posted, I strongly suggest that you take a look at it, paying particular attention to the "support characteristic":


Also consider that, from a competitive standpoint, trapping abilities like Shadow Tag are seen with immense disfavor, as they generally take out skill from the game. To put things into perspective, I should let everyone know that at a certain point during the B/W era, a (very) vocal minority of the community started to advocate a suspect test for ST Gothitelle which, clearly, isn't even remotely comparable to Mega Gengar in terms of stats and support movepool.

That said, I invite everyone to tone down a little and to focus more on the topic of this thread, rather than on irrelevant side arguments.

 

[Jukain]

Alright, I figured this was coming. It is my stance that Gengarite (and thus Mega Gengar) should be OU.

Many players I've talked to find Mega Gengar underwhelming. Truth be told, it isn't that scary to face. Its power isn't obscene -- in fact its attacks deal less damage than those of its regular forme holding a Life Orb. It gets higher Speed, but it's still not enough for it to be able to afford running Modest. It's a ~4-6% difference in damage, which is significant enough to change 2HKOs/OHKOs but not ridiculous enough to make the offense difference a deciding factor.

However, we saw last gen in Dream World that ST Chandelure, while not necessarily broken, was extremely good. What differentiates Mega Gengar? Well, it's the BP of its moves. Chandelure had Fire Blast, giving it a high-powered STAB to work with. Gengar has...Shadow Ball? Its moves don't have high enough BP, so its hits aren't that strong. It doesn't KO what it needs to KO, put simply.

The obvious most disruptive aspect of Mega Gengar is Shadow Tag, and inevitably the focal point of this discussion. Mega Gengar lacks the stamina to really abuse this ability, though. Its bulk is severely lacking -- it also loses Levitate, which means it loses its key Ground immunity. The fact that it can hardly even switch in is greatly troublesome for it, and its almost complete lack of resistances do it no favors. Mega Gengar does not have the stuff to switch into much of anything.

But, of course, the biggest thing with Shadow Tag is eliminating walls. However, Mega Gengar doesn't even do it that well. It can't actually...kill the walls it's supposed to. Its utter inability to OHKO pretty much anything in addition to its frailty makes it easy for things like Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball to get rid of it. There are a couple things like Trevenant it can easily kill, but not many. Its overall potency as a trapper I think is not that great.

These are just some points to start off. I'm sure we'll get into more later, so for now, that's it :)

 

[MudcrabDL]

The fact that gengar cannot come in and trap something immediately is a very important one. I am of the opinion that the need to mega evolve him before he can start being truly terrifying balances his ability somewhat, allowing one 'free pass" to switch to a check or counter. Running Mega Gengar also means the opportunity cost of not running something like Mega Kangaskhan, or Mega Mawile, which can arguably do more damage. The metagame is also a lot harsher for special attackers these days, with bulky damage dealers like Goodra and the new Assault Vest meaning Gengar simply doesn't have the firepower to OHKO a lot of the time unless played strategically. I think it deserves to be in OU.

 

[alexwolf]

.But, of course, the biggest thing with Shadow Tag is eliminating walls. However, Mega Gengar doesn't even do it that well. It can't actually...kill the walls it's supposed to. Its utter inability to OHKO pretty much anything in addition to its frailty makes it easy for things like Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball to get rid of it. There are a couple things like Trevenant it can easily kill, but not many. Its overall potency as a trapper I think is not that great.

These are just some points to start off. I'm sure we'll get into more later, so for now, that's it :)

Mega Gengar can eliminate every single wall that can't OHKO it with Taunt + Destiny Bond. Also, it can't eliminate Trevenant because it's a Ghost-type and thus immune to Shadow Tag.

 

[Mizuhime]

In my OU time this generation i've thought Mega Gar to be unhealthy for the meta game. It is a little underwhelming when it comes to sheer power, but its ability allows it to single handedly destroy every wall in the tier. Basically Gengar reduces the amount of play styles that can be used, using stall can end in a auto-loss because of one Pokemon. and that in my opinion is why Gengarite should be removed from OU.

 

[Jukain]

it's immune to fighting and normal, and resists grass, poison, and bug. fighting and normal immunities are cool, but its other resistances aren't really a factor except against a select few threats. key word: almost. it lacks the resistances to come into a lot of moves.

 

[ryan]

I don't have a strong opinion on this suspect yet because I frankly haven't had many problems with Mega Gengar, but I don't think that was because it's not broken. I haven't fought what I believe to be by far the best set, Perish Song, which can take out almost any Pokemon except those with powerful priority. Of course, Mega Gengar cannot immediately trap and KO everything, but with its strong Perish Song set, it can trap things that you wouldn't think it could. For example, if your opponent switches VestLax in on Mega Gengar as it uses Perish Song, it's going to get trapped and KOed. With Pursuit, so will Mega Gengar, but that's still a huge special tank that could wall half your team that has been taken out. By principle, I think being able to selectively choose what to trap on the opponent's team (which with the Perish Song set isn't hard, as you can Mega Evolve and Protect on literally anything and then U-turn back into it later in the match), is pretty nasty and probably ban-worthy. But I haven't gotten a chance to really see its effect on the metagame yet because I haven't faced its best set at all. That said, I would personally like to get a chance to see its potential, but that might not be possible.

 

[Silver Scrapes]

In light of new evidence, I do think Gengarite deserves a ban, or at the very least Shadow Tag + Perish Song.

 

[bottomsupfellas]

I have a MegaGengar that I use myself and it's just underwhelming. I definitely think MegaGengar should be OU. Like mentioned above, Shadow Tag is almost completely useless since it can't be activated immediately and the opponent could just switch out before you MegaEvolve. Disable is nice, I guess and other stuff but he just doesn't feel like a megaevo. Idk, I'm new so I'm not doing any extreme analyzing or calculating but I'm just saying MegaGengar definitely doesn't feel Uber when I'm using him. I have a Modest 31/x/31/31/31/31 properly EV trained one so it's not like his lack of EVs/IVs are what I'm basing my opinion on.

 

[ryan]

MegaZam, too, not only outspeeds and OHKOs, but Tracing Shadow Tag could make serious problems for Mengar's trainer.
Also, he still can't kill Chansey.

Two Shadow Tag Pokemon don't trap one another. Even if they did, Ghosts aren't trapped by Shadow Tag. And it could kill Chansey if people would use PerishTrap, which is really the only set that could be considered broken imo. Of course Mega Gengar doesn't have a whole lot of firepower with its main STAB only having 80 Base Power and no item to enhance its great Special Attack, but who cares when you can come in, Perish Song on something that can't OHKO you or on a switch if you haven't Mega Evolved yet, and then Sub/Protect until the last turn when you can switch out and watch it crumble.

 

[dragonuser]

Many players I've talked to find Mega Gengar underwhelming. Truth be told, it isn't that scary to face. Its power isn't obscene -- in fact its attacks deal less damage than those of its regular forme holding a Life Orb. It gets higher Speed, but it's still not enough for it to be able to afford running Modest. It's a ~4-6% difference in damage, which is significant enough to change 2HKOs/OHKOs but not ridiculous enough to make the offense difference a deciding factor.

Not really sure why you are completly disregarding its incredible speed, and only mentioning how its too slow to run Modest. It is faster than nearly the entire unboosted metagame, speed tieing jolt/aero and only slower than mega aero/mega zam. That is ridiculous, especially in conjunction with its fantastic coverage, base 170 SpA, and ability Shadow Tag. It can trap and revenge so many offensive threats effortlessly.

However, we saw last gen in Dream World that ST Chandelure, while not necessarily broken, was extremely good. What differentiates Mega Gengar? Well, it's the BP of its moves.

First of all, I don't really think saying that Chandelure wasn't neccesarily broken in DW metagame has much weight, as that metagame was very different than BW ended up being and had much larger threats than the current bw metagame, possibly making Chandelure seem more realistic amongst such tyrants. Also Mega Gengar does much of the revenging Chandelure wished it can do, without a Choice Scarf, and due to it not being choiced can make use of its excellent coverage and support movepool (Hypnosis/Taunt/Perish Song/Substitute/etc) to stop walls Chandelure wished it could have.

However, Mega Gengar doesn't even do it that well. It can't actually...kill the walls it's supposed to. Its utter inability to OHKO pretty much anything in addition to its frailty makes it easy for things like Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball to get rid of it. There are a couple things like Trevenant it can easily kill, but not many. Its overall potency as a trapper I think is not that great.

Not even sure where you got this from. Gengar has fantastic coverage and power allowing it to OHKO/2HKO many physical walls, and if it fails at that it still has access to Taunt/Perish Song/Destiny Bond to beat a wall (like Chansey) that could possibly sit on it and heal.

Also like people have mentioned above, Gengar has a ton of resistances and immunities. While it is hindered by its overall low bulk, it can still easily make use of its ability Shadow Tag through the plethora of momentum moves in the metagame or simple switching/revenging.

Overall, I am heavily for Gengarite being banned, largely for the reasons mentioned in this post.

Will post more thoughts in a bit~

 

[McGrrr]

Mega Gengar isn't comparable to Chandelure because:

1. Chandelure can use an item instead of stupid-face Gengarite.
2. Chandelure has Calm Mind access.
3. Chandelure is immediately threatening, but Gengar must first mega evolve.

I think how well Mega Gengar does with Pain Split will be key to the debate. The idea of KOing something, taking damage, and then trapping something else (that's healthy) for free HP recovery (sup Blissey?) makes Mega Gengar a far more threatening prospect than its current incarnation. Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Substitute/Pain Split is what I'd use.

Honestly, I've used Gengar on every team that I've made this generation, and not once have I been tempted by Gengarite.

 

[Silver Scrapes]

Two Shadow Tag Pokemon don't trap one another. Even if they did, Ghosts aren't trapped by Shadow Tag. And it could kill Chansey if people would use PerishTrap, which is really the only set that could be considered broken imo. Of course Mega Gengar doesn't have a whole lot of firepower with its main STAB only having 80 Base Power and no item to enhance its great Special Attack, but who cares when you can come in, Perish Song on something that can't OHKO you or on a switch if you haven't Mega Evolved yet, and then Sub/Protect until the last turn when you can switch out and watch it crumble.

I know they don't trap each other, but MegaZam still outspeeds and OHKOs Mengar.

Perish Trapping can only be done to one or two things, though, before Mengar can't keep going due to losing all of its HP Substituting.

Then again, I don't really see a good way to deal with Perish Song trapping...

 

[sidakarya]

What really makes M-Gengar dangerous and potentially broken, in my opinion, are Substitute sets. Substitute is an easy way to remove the problem of having to Mega-Evolve before Shadow Tag activates. It makes its potential checks, like AV-Tar and Scizor, much shakier, as they now risk a KO or the move used to take Gengar out being rendered useless via Disable. Gengar has a myriad other options to cripple its counters, such as Will-o'-wisp, Perish Song, and Destiny Bond, using trapping to the fullest advantages. It still has many resistances and immunities, which means, that it's surprisingly not that hard to switch in despite its frailty.

 

[SpaceFlare]

MegaZam, too, not only outspeeds and OHKOs, but Tracing Shadow Tag could make serious problems for Mengar's trainer.

Wouldn't he still be able to get away cause ghosts can't be trapped?

That said, I feel like the bump in hard hitting priority users still keeps him from being truly fearsome. While he can probably break down most physical walls, he can't really switch in safely on a lot of things as he still is pretty squishy. And losing the ground immunity really hurts as Excadrill will not even need Mold Breaker to him him with EQ.

 

[Silver Scrapes]

Wouldn't he still be able to get away cause ghosts can't be trapped?

That said, I feel like the bump in hard hitting priority users still keeps him from being truly fearsome. While he can probably break down most physical walls, he can't really switch in safely on a lot of things as he still is pretty squishy.

It's immaterial, your opponent now has a Shadow Tagger that's faster than yours and has the ability to OHKO yours, and I said for the trainer, not the Mengar itself.

I meant that MegaZam can proceed to wreak havoc on the opponent's team.

 

[ryan]

I know they don't trap each other, but MegaZam still outspeeds and OHKOs Mengar.

Perish Trapping can only be done to one or two things, though, before Mengar can't keep going due to losing all of its HP Substituting.

Then again, I don't really see a good way to deal with Perish Song trapping...

Protect + Substitute makes it so that you only have to use Substitute once while Perish Trapping the opponent. Besides, the idea that "You can only Perish trap one or two things a game" making it any less broken is ludicrous because you get to pick what you are taking out. If you need a particular Pokemon out of the way in order to sweep, play well with your switching or slap on some VoltTurners and you can pretty well guarantee you'll be able to.

 

[Quaetrix]

Jukain raises some valid points if you consider Gengar only as a Special Attacker but the fact is that M-Gengar can seem too advantageous when played correctly with Shadow Tag and Destiny Bond/Perish Song, as a Ghost with Levitate it gets quite often some free switch in (spinblocker etc.) once it gets its switch in it can activate M-Gengar and do some damages (170 Spa mean that whatever switch in during your transformation will not be a big threat considering its attack except for Tyranitar maybe). Now Shadow Tag and your 130 Base Speed are on and the next time you'll switch in it will be a guaranteed kill for the target that you'll choose to trap.

But then once this kill is done, with moves such as destiny bond (and 130 base speed) or disable, it will be able to get another kill or to do big damages.

All in all I would say that I feel that it's almost a guaranteed 2 for 1 against a lot of teams and if it's 1 for 1 you'll often kill a very important pokemon for your opponent team (trick room setter etc.).

So this ability to trap and snipe one pokemon for sure (Shadow Tag + Destiny Bond) with the ability to do this again most of the time (first you trapped a weak prey then you used destiny bond) is too powerful imho.

The only true "counters" (again Destiny Bond) being pursuit users.

Uber

 

[McGrrr]

Protect + Substitute makes it so that you only have to use Substitute once while Perish Trapping the opponent. Besides, the idea that "You can only Perish trap one or two things a game" making it any less broken is ludicrous because you get to pick what you are taking out. If you need a particular Pokemon out of the way in order to sweep, play well with your switching or slap on some VoltTurners and you can pretty well guarantee you'll be able to.

Pain Split is the game changer here; to recover Substitute damage.

Perish Song/Subsitute/Protect/Pain Split.

 

[ryan]

Yeah, you can use Pain Split as well if you really want to. I've never really ~needed~ it, but it's absolutely an option. I still prefer Shadow Ball for picking off opponents, but if you want Pain Split for even more crumbling, go nuts man. That last slot is really just filler, but you could even use Disable to make sure that you can switch out of Snorlax/Tyranitar trying to Pursuit trap you. Gengar's got one hell of a movepool.

 

[AOPSUser]

IMO, no one of any of Mega Gengar's sets is broken by itself. However, it has so many different things it could do (PerishTrap, Disable, Taunt, Substitute, Destiny Bond, Pain Split, Hypnosis, a good offensive movepool) that the opponent could potentially lose a Pokemon or two just figuring out what it is (Tyranitar switching into Perish Song/Substitute/Protect/Disable Mega Gengar dies, etc.). Also, if you use Substitute the first turn, you can switch out of Pursuit and can then choose what you need to kill from there. Yes Focus Blast has low accuracy but if you're relying on it to miss just to beat Gengar then that's an indication of how broken it is.

Gengar also has IMMUNITIES, which it can switch in on. Any Choice-locked Fighting or Normal-type move is immediately free Substitute fodder or instantly dead at best. It can also switch into Choiced Earthquakes in normal form, choose not to Mega as the opponent either switches or keeps spamming Earthquake, and does heavy damage that way too.

Basically, with all the things Gengar can do, there is no safe counter to Mega Gengar. Period. Once you know what it's going, though, it becomes easier to kill.

 

[SansNickel]

From my experience, mega gengar hasn't been as threatening as it should be. However, just because it can't OHKO / 2HKO some things doesn't mean it might not be broken. You can't just send in mega gengar and expect it to KO something at full health because that's simply not what it does; you wouldn't expect LO Reuniclus to OHKO everything with psychic right from the bat, nor would you always (necessarily) send in your revenge killer against something with very high health. I can see three things that need consideration:
1. Mega Gengar's pain split is great, since you're choosing what to pain split from.
2. The perish trap set could also be broken; It outspeeds many things, and I can see a lot of walls taken out.
3. Running (slower) u-turns and volt switches are great. Not only do they do damage, letting Gengar KO more easily, but Gengar now gets a free switch in.
I think a combination of the above three might be a bit unhealthy. But so far not many have actually used mega gengar effectively, so we'll see what happens.
Also, saying MegaZam beats Mega Gengar is irrelevant, since Mega Gengar chooses who it wants to face. Also, MegaZam beats a lot of things, doesn't mean they all suck.

 

[Silver Scrapes]

IMO, no one of any of Mega Gengar's sets is broken by itself. However, it has so many different things it could do (PerishTrap, Disable, Taunt, Substitute, Destiny Bond, Pain Split, Hypnosis, a good offensive movepool) that the opponent could potentially lose a Pokemon or two just figuring out what it is (Tyranitar switching into Perish Song/Substitute/Protect/Disable Mega Gengar dies, etc.). Also, if you use Substitute the first turn, you can switch out of Pursuit and can then choose what you need to kill from there. Yes Focus Blast has low accuracy but if you're relying on it to miss just to beat Gengar then that's an indication of how broken it is.

Gengar also has IMMUNITIES, which it can switch in on. Any Choice-locked Fighting or Normal-type move is immediately free Substitute fodder or instantly dead at best. It can also switch into Choiced Earthquakes in normal form, choose not to Mega as the opponent either switches or keeps spamming Earthquake, and does heavy damage that way too.

Basically, with all the things Gengar can do, there is no safe counter to Mega Gengar. Period. Once you know what it's going, though, it becomes easier to kill.

I'm pretty sure we're well on our way to establishing the brokenness of Perish Trapping. It gets Shadow Tag, and can Perish Song whatever the hell it wants, switch out on the last turn, and then move on to the next wall. There is no safe counter to that set by itself, since it can kill literally almost anything it wants.

 

[bottomsupfellas]

I'm pretty sure we're well on our way to establishing the brokenness of Perish Trapping. It gets Shadow Tag, and can Perish Song whatever the hell it wants, switch out on the last turn, and then move on to the next wall. There is no safe counter to that set by itself, since it can kill literally almost anything it wants.

Okay, yeah, that sounds pretty scary... I mean, granted Gengar would have to be able to survive some hits but I'm sure with Hypnosis/Substitute, hell even Protect, he should be able to.

 

[SpaceFlare]

I'm pretty sure we're well on our way to establishing the brokenness of Perish Trapping. It gets Shadow Tag, and can Perish Song whatever the hell it wants, switch out on the last turn, and then move on to the next wall. There is no safe counter to that set by itself, since it can kill literally almost anything it wants.

Perish Trapping pretty much eliminates anything it wants (except for ghosts) and might be the most broken thing Mega Gengar can do tbh. It also gives him a way of taking out Chansey/Blissey, clearing the floor for special attackers in the team to do their work.

Smart usage of his massive Speed stat, 2 immunities and access to Destiny Bond will allow him to take down the Pokemon that finally brings him down with him.

That means he will at least get 1 kill, maybe even 2 if played correctly.

Sounds pretty broken to me indeed.