And so? Being a legendary doesn't make a pokemon automatically good. See Articuno, Moltres, Regice, Regirock, Phione, Entei, Mesprit, Cresselia and Kyurem.
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Pokémon Zygarde
- Thread starter ChaosNemesis
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Kyurem Is'nt actually that bad, BW kyurem is mediocre but B2W2 Kyurem (Normal Kyurem not blaack or white kyurem) anyway B2W2 Normal Kyurem's stats were raised so it has 130 atk and 130 spatk
:)
Zygarde isnt that ugly and BTW Assualt Vest only allows you to use Physical moves so you wouldnt be able to Dragon Dance
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UP until this gen, though, we've always had really decent third legendaries. Suicune, Rayquaza, Giratina and somewhat Kyurem were all very good.
But not most of the ones I named. Point is, being legendary doesn't make a pokemon good, and being this useful on Beta OU when everybody was quick to dismiss Zygarde as pathetic, is amazing.
I'm not dismissing him, he's a great pokemon, I just think he lacks the firepower to even compete with his predecessors.
How is Zygarde not comparable to these 4? Nobody's claiming Zygarde will be an uber threat like Rayquaza and Giratina, but he's too good to be UU like Suicune, or no man's land (BL) like Kyurem (yes his forms are decent in OU and Uber, but if you think Zygarde's a disgrace to the legendary name, just look a Kyurem-B who has the 2nd highest BST ever, and isn't uber). I really don't know why we're even mentioning the L word, because for me the only thing it means is that they can't breed.
Base Kyurem was the best Blizzard spammer in Doubles until Mega Abomasnow came along.
All I'm saying is that he is definatly not a unique pokemon and, in my opinion, has far too many checks & counters. Why has nobody brought up Azumarill yet? I'm definatly not dismissing him, I'm just saying his bad offensive movepool + terrible BST + very bad typing = UU at best.
Not unique? He has some pretty rare moves like coil and extreme speed. Access to extremespeed in this priority heavy metagame alone makes him worth a look. He can beat every priority user I can think of
Aqua jets from Azumarill can 5HKO (18.7-22.6) an unboosted Zygarde (which is rare since Zygarde can coil very easily considering his bulk), while Earthquake 2HKO's (52.7-62.4) Azumarill. Azu's Play Rough 2HKO's (choice band sets do OHKO though) Zygarde , but since Zygarde's faster, Zygarde still wins in most situations
Shallow? Yes. Bad? No. He has 2 great boosting moves that make up for his below average atk, and access to earthquake, extremespeed, stone edge, and crunch (yeah, that's pretty much it), but only 9 pokemon (Breloom, Virizion, Chesnaught, Torterra, Bronzong, Claydol, and Flygon, and only the last 3 can really hit him back if he gets a few coils in) resist earthquake and stone edge, meaning team support isn't that difficult. He doesn't have a lot, but he has what he needs.
Besides Kyurem, 600 is the highest BST in OU and is higher than every non [psuedo] legendary there is. How is that terrible?
weak to ice, dragon, and fairy, 3 common offensive types, but if you had read the thread, we had already discussed how he can beat salamence, dragonite*, garchomp, kyurem, and every fairy/ice type 1 on 1 almost every single time. That basically leaves Noivern, Hydreigon, lati@s, and floating ice beams that can really hurt him.
*we didn't fully discuss dragonite, while zygarde can beat a DD set, weaknite and mixed sets rip this snake apart
I think I've made it clear that he can hold his own and then some in OU, and there's really no reason he should end up any lower imo. Yes he has checks, but if he didn't he'd be banned to uber. I realize you were just pointing out some flaws in this pokemon, but would you please do some more research before making a statement like putting this guy in UU. He's a fantastic physical tank, and an even better late game cleaner. And most importantly, he's pretty easy to fit onto a team. I'd say that zygarde's only real negative attribute is that he's banned from vgc (land's wrath woulda been awesome in season 2).
/sigh
1. there's no legal way for him to get shed skin, so why are we talking about it?
2. I'd love to here your reasoning for this statement. Is it that Zygarde has too many counters? Are his stats too low? Will he fall victim to too many people labeling him as bad without adequate reasoning and not have the usage to make OU? Your previous posts show it having a weakness to ice beams and WoW, but so is every physical dragon in OU (except for dragonite, who laughs at ice beams). This gen's looking like it'll have a lot more bulky attackers and a defensive focus than BW2, and really, who does bulky attacking better than this guy (don't answer that, I know there are some, but he's still an honorable mention), and on top of that, he's hardly slow, 95 base speed is enough to beat a lot of its would-be counters
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Isn't that kind of like Gyarados?
Gyarados has dual stabs that nothing is immune to, Taunt, an immunity, and two useful abilities. Nor is there an electric type priority.
- Gyarados has to use Bounce as a secondary STAB, which is inaccurate and takes a charge up turn.
- Why would you put Taunt on a "boosting sweeper"?
- Zygarde also has an immunity, to electric.
- Zygarde has ESpeed, which has higher priority than Ice Shard.
Let's see the max Mamoswine, the best Ice Shard User on OU, can do to Zygarde:
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 244-292 (58 - 69.5%)
And taking into account that being locked into Ice Shard is terribly stupid, let's use the normal Mamoswine, the one with Lefties or Sash
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 168-196 (40 - 46.6%)
3HKO.
While Zygarde...
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 270-318 (63.6 - 75%)
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 144-170 (33.9 - 40%)
At the +1 Zygarde gets when you switch out or use U-turn, he 2HKOes trough a combination of Earthquake and Extreme Speed, unless Mamoswine uses
Icicle Crash. So the argument of "weak to priority" is stupid.
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We can easily state what Gyarados has over Zygarde or what Zygarde has over Gyarados, but they both are set-up sweepers that have no reliable form of recovery or status healing and 4x weakness. Yet... Gyarados has been in OU for a while and may stay in OU for this new generation.
1.Gyarados has much higher attack, is much more unpredictable with sub/taunt/mega, and can actually afford to run only 2 attacks without losing too much coverage.
2.Gyarados forces out and sets up on most EQ users without roar(gliscor for example), while most electric types that even are OU shit on zygarde with another move.
3.GYarados can afford to run max speed/attack which fills a completely different role than Z. Some of you are assuming that Zygarde runs both coil and DD and has 1020 EV points.
+1 4 Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 195-229 (54.01 - 63.43%)
+1 4 Atk Zygarde Extremespeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 104-123 (28.8 - 34.07%)
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 296-348 (82.68 - 97.2%)
I'm talking about the Coil set, so please, use the same set I'm using for calculations. You reduced Zygarde ev's in attack to 4 (very stupid) and also his HP evs to 4. Also, as I said, you're going to use Mamoswine as a switch-in or revenge killer, because you're never going to switch-in Zygarde into Mamoswine.
I myself have swept in OU with Zygarde many times, and still I think the only reason why some consider it good is that there isnt anything else to compare it to.
Its stats are in between Gyarados/Salamence and Conkeldurr/Reuniclus all of thich are OU, but has neither the raw power of the former group or the longevity of the latter, which severely undermines its general usefulness.
My fault. If you run 252HP/252Atk, EQ+Espeed 2hkos, but then Mamoswine outspeeds and uses Icicle Crash instead.
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Extremespeed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 143-169 (39.61 - 46.81%)
Gyarados may have higher atk, but relies on lower bp moves, and typically doesn't get dragon dances off as easily as Zygarde gets coils (he can get 2 on almost any physical attacker without taking much damage), and HP/Atk investment with Adamant is really all he needs (Def and Spe are more for specialized sets which I wouldn't suggest for OU). And if I saw a mamoswine in team preview, I'd make sure I switched in first with an easy mark, get a coil or two (even if mamo switches in, I've got +1 atk and +1 def, more than enough to survive an ice shard) and KO with an earthquake followed by Extremespeed.
you can't try to play it like the four you mentioned, otherwise you'll run into the problems you've mentioned. Its too fast to play solely as a tank, not strong or fast enough to purely sweep, to specially weak to wall, so what can it do? It can work outside of the annoying molds that have sprung up over the past few gens. He is fast enough, strong enough, and bulky enough to fill the role you need him to play, and for that reason I think he'll be popular among the more versatile players in the game
Note: I do appreciate that your points actually do make sense, and it may be that his too spread stats and ice weakness end up being his downfall, but I think once he gets a real metagame to work in, he'll earn his place in OU just fine
I have to give credit to Zido for posting the double boosting set on the earlier pages and im posting it again here to hear what the rest of you guys feel about it, in terms of viablity etc. This set works great with dual screens support as shown in Zido's replay. I love this set and it works well if used properly as with any pokemon.
Zygarde@Leftovers
Adamant Nature
EVs 252hp 252atk 4spdef
Dragon Dance
Coil
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Honestly i really love Zygarde in design, playstyle, and the refreshing feeling i get after using him. He needs to stop being compared to other dragons he's unique.
Zygarde@Leftovers
Adamant Nature
EVs 252hp 252atk 4spdef
Dragon Dance
Coil
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Honestly i really love Zygarde in design, playstyle, and the refreshing feeling i get after using him. He needs to stop being compared to other dragons he's unique.
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Has anyone mentioned a Rest + Chesto set? Something along the lines of:
Zygarde @ Chesto Berry
Impish/Careful/Adamant Nature
EVs 252 Hp / remaining is debatable
Coil/Dragon Dance
Earthquake
Dragon Tail/Stone Edge/Extreme Speed
Rest
With Rest, it gives him a chance at healing after setting up. Chesto Berry over Lum insures that you won't be stuck asleep in case you get crippled with a different status. The EVs are debatable, since I haven't run any calcs for specific threats, and only wanted to bring up the Rest + Chesto idea.
Coil would help with more accurate and powerful Dragon Tails and Stone Edges - while Dragon Dance would help with overall momentum from the speed/power increase. If you're running Extreme Speed and Earthquake, I see no reason to use Coil over Dragon Dance.
Now while Sleep Talk would give you more opportunities to heal, this set is able to squeeze in another move over Sleep Talk for more coverage/boosting move.
Zygarde @ Chesto Berry
Impish/Careful/Adamant Nature
EVs 252 Hp / remaining is debatable
Coil/Dragon Dance
Earthquake
Dragon Tail/Stone Edge/Extreme Speed
Rest
With Rest, it gives him a chance at healing after setting up. Chesto Berry over Lum insures that you won't be stuck asleep in case you get crippled with a different status. The EVs are debatable, since I haven't run any calcs for specific threats, and only wanted to bring up the Rest + Chesto idea.
Coil would help with more accurate and powerful Dragon Tails and Stone Edges - while Dragon Dance would help with overall momentum from the speed/power increase. If you're running Extreme Speed and Earthquake, I see no reason to use Coil over Dragon Dance.
Now while Sleep Talk would give you more opportunities to heal, this set is able to squeeze in another move over Sleep Talk for more coverage/boosting move.
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You could be ballsy and run Coil/Rest/Sleep Talk/Stone Edge. Yeah you aren't using either STAB but Rock is the only usable attack move of his with no immunity and fortunately there are virtually 0 4x Rock resists and Coil makes it more accurate and you can benefit from the crits. That would theoretically give him the longest legs to stand on... if her had any.
CoilDance fortunately leaves you with great EdgeQuake coverage, but I might argue a Lum Berry or Yache Berry would serve better than Leftovers. The enemy has to have enough priority and scarf users left to outspeed you to do damage and the Leftovers has to heal enough to save you that one extra time. Meanwhile if you get Toxiced or WoWd early it won't matter how much you boost. Lum Berry can give you that one extra turn to get the boost you need while your opponent was depending on Rotom to WoW you and stop your sweep, but you come out unaffected and wreck shop as a result. I use this tactic with my Haxorus to the same effect. I think status users are used more often to cripple sweepers whether by prankster users or walls.
CoilDance fortunately leaves you with great EdgeQuake coverage, but I might argue a Lum Berry or Yache Berry would serve better than Leftovers. The enemy has to have enough priority and scarf users left to outspeed you to do damage and the Leftovers has to heal enough to save you that one extra time. Meanwhile if you get Toxiced or WoWd early it won't matter how much you boost. Lum Berry can give you that one extra turn to get the boost you need while your opponent was depending on Rotom to WoW you and stop your sweep, but you come out unaffected and wreck shop as a result. I use this tactic with my Haxorus to the same effect. I think status users are used more often to cripple sweepers whether by prankster users or walls.
Agreeing with your statement Jaroda the lum berry/yache berry are completely viable substitutes for the leftovers item. They all have there uses but i was thinking of that set as something you save for later like a late game cleaner after his threats are gone. Also you dont have to necessarily boost twice you can coil and attack with stone edge or vice versa. Also instead of using Stone Edge could that be replaced with extreme speed for more priority? If your a doubles person Land's Wrath can replace earthquake.
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