np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]

[kokoloko]

OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

yes hi hello

the vote on houndoominite was a lot less controversial than we expected so we came to a consensus pretty quickly

houndoominite is UU

our votes and reasoning paragraphs will be edited into the other thread over the next couple days

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weavile is the next retest subject

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finally, we also took a vote and decided to amend the original initial BL list to include tornadus-t and zygarde, so they are now BL and will be retested at a later date.

expect these changes to take place soon, whenever Joim / Zarel get around to it.

that is all.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Funny that one of the possible check to Zygarde is now being retested and Zygarde is gone. J/s

And no surprise that MegaDoom is UU. Although with Zygarde gone that is one less counter to it once it sets up... Not that it can set up easily.

 

[Hidious]

Funny that one of the possible check to Zygarde is now being retested and Zygarde is gone. J/s

And no surprise that MegaDoom is UU. Although with Zygarde gone that is one less counter to it once it sets up... Not that it can set up easily.

If you have to have weaville in the tier to make zygarde not broken then that says something about how broken zygarde is.

 

[newfren]

Hey Koko, can we get the number of votes for zygarde and tornadus-t?

 

[Mahmudkipz]

If you have to have weaville in the tier to make zygarde not broken then that says something about how broken zygarde is.

One, not all... Weavile is no way the only answer to Zygarde. Cloyster is easily another check to Zygarde, so is a list of other things that get reasonably strong Ice type attacks. I just think it'd be nice to have them both in the same meta and see how they fair together seeing as the reason why Zygarde is powerful under this meta is we lack something that handles Dragons reliably and pressure them to not setup.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

YES RIP TORNADUS-T

GOOD FUCKING RIDDANCE

also yeah fuck zderp that shit was pretty stupid (now let's wait for kyurem to get the boot too :>)

 

[Shiny Minun]

slowbro is a good zygarde stopper, Ice beams kinda stop him from doing his job, among other things.

Suicune that run Ice beam, as stated before, cloyster can now switch in, break though sub and OHKO with icicle spear, 2HKOing with ice shard in case zygarde is already set up and speedy. MAggon only takes 36% from EQ with no defense investment (kills it first with attack investment, walls with defensive investment) and can roar out set up. Crobat can toxic though sub and basically force zygarde to stop setting up.

in a more reaching department, togetic is only threatened by zygarde running stone edge, which is pretty rare since he likes to run EQ/Espeed and sometimes outrage with a set up move.

When you compare that to how little counters megadoom has (all I can think of is regirock), its no surprise that zygarde was left behind. although I'm curious why hes getting picked up now, if mega houndoom is apparently A-OK for UU. Look forward to reading about it!

 

[Ajna]

The only broken zygarde set is the coil one and secondly espeed at plus two would kill weavile so I dunno what you guys are saying. Secondly a coil zygarde at plus 4(which it can get to almost every game) 2hkos cloyster with eq.

+4 0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 193-228 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edit: it also has a guarantees a kill after rocks

+4 0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 193-228 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And icicle spear wouldn't kill even without a sub up 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. +4 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 200-260 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- approx. 88.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Zygarde was more broken than Latias and torn, I won't miss it at all.

Also I am very excited about weavile coming back and tbh I think it should stay.

 

[Schpoonman]

I'd like to see some logs against good players before you claim that Zygarde will get 4 Coils up against a team with Cloyster that easily.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

The only broken zygarde set is the coil one and secondly espeed at plus two would kill weavile so I dunno what you guys are saying. Secondly a coil zygarde at plus 4(which it can get to almost every game) 2hkos cloyster with eq.

+4 0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 193-228 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edit: it also has a guarantees a kill after rocks

+4 0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 193-228 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And icicle spear wouldn't kill even without a sub up 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. +4 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 200-260 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- approx. 88.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Zygarde was more broken than Latias and torn, I won't miss it at all.

Also I am very excited about weavile coming back and tbh I think it should stay.

If you let an opposing Zygarde get up to 4 Coils before sending your Cloyster in, you must have made some pretty bad plays...

Edit: Also most SubCoil sets run Dragon Tail and EQ, the former to phaze things out and the latter to deal with stuff like Florges or Nidoking, Espeed is not standard on SubCoil Zygarde.The worst case scenario with Weavile is your opponent's Zygarde already got up a Sub and 1 Coil you come in, breaks its Sub and it proceed to kill with EQ or phaze with Dragon Tail

 

[Explorer]

One, not all... Weavile is no way the only answer to Zygarde. Cloyster is easily another check to Zygarde, so is a list of other things that get reasonably strong Ice type attacks. I just think it'd be nice to have them both in the same meta and see how they fair together seeing as the reason why Zygarde is powerful under this meta is we lack something that handles Dragons reliably and pressure them to not setup.

A lot of Pokemon with Ice moves handle Zygarde well. Swampert has Ice Beam and can remove boosts with Roar. However, some special attack investment would be needed for quicker KOs.

Also, I should try Houndoom-Mega again. Unfortunately, Houndoom-M's friend is stuck in OU (a.k.a. Ninetales), so I guess it's back to setting up sun manually.

 

[Ajna]

If you let an opposing Zygarde get up to 4 Coils before sending your Cloyster in, you must have made some pretty bad plays... Also most SubCoil sets run Dragon Tail and EQ, the former to phaze things out and the latter to deal with stuff like Florges or Nidoking, Espeed is not standard on SubCoil Zygarde.The worst case scenario with Weavile is your opponent's Zygarde already got up a Sub and 1 Coil you come in, breaks its Sub and it proceeds to kill with EQ or phaze with Dragon Tail. But at least now the sub is broken and you can RK it with anything faster that has an Ice move.

Regarding espeed I was talking about the dd set(I should have said that) But my point is that if you're going to bring in your cloyster there's always the chance he will eq even at only plus 1 after rocks it will do 50 percent. So after that happening twice you have no cloyster and zygarde will restart his sweep. Also if you are going to bring cloyster in safely you will have to sack a mon almost every time it comes in. Secondly I don't see many people running cloister in the first place, and lastly if there's only one mon in the tier to counter it and maybe three to check it you know it's broken.

 

[Ajna]

A lot of Pokemon with Ice moves handle Zygarde well. Swampert has Ice Beam and can remove boosts with Roar. However, some special attack investment would be needed for quicker KOs.

Also, I should try Houndoom-Mega again. Unfortunately, Houndoom-M's friend is stuck in OU (a.k.a. Ninetales), so I guess it's back to setting up sun manually.

Thing is swampert can't phase out zygarde due to the fact it will be running d-tail and it's faster than swampert :/ Also an uninvested ice beam from swampert would do almost nothing to standard coil zarde.

4 SpA Swampert Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 180-212 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's the set dmt ran but most are max sdef in that case it would do less. Swampert is at the very best just a check to zard. But let's talk about something else now that zard is bl; how about the beast weavile returning?

 

[Taehl]

Why are we discussing Zygarde's checks and counters now? He just got banned.

 

[Ajna]

Why are we discussing Zygarde's checks and counters now? He just got banned.

I just said that lol

 

[TM13IceBeam]

+1 extremespeed from Zderp already maims weavile such that it can only pull off 1 LO attack before dying if it goes into rocks: if it's a coil set then there is a chance to survive ice punch (icicle crash KOes but uh yeah knock off is fap-worthy pretty much a must).

seriously weavile doesn't even beat zderp... add in a layer of spikes and weavile's only purpose in the entire game is to take 2pp off extremespeed due to pressure.

 

[EonX]

Kinda glad Zygarde got the kick. It was kinda ridiculous tbh. Between SubCoil, DD, and ChestoRest DD, nothing was a fullproof stop to it. Not sure on Tornadus-T though. I mean, it's AV set was kinda annoying, but I never really had major issues with it. Then again, I almost always find myself using physically defensive M-Ampharos, so maybe that's why I never had major issues with Torn-T.

Weavile is going to be interesting. It's got really good Speed, solid Attack, and nice dual STABs. Not a lot of shit can wall it thanks to Dark/Ice coverage with its STABs and it it capable of running Low Kick as well if it needs to remove a Steel-type that isn't Jirachi or Metagross. Knock Off from this thing is pretty strong, so be ready for that. Best offensive check to it that I can see right now is M-Manectric thanks to Intimidate and a fast Flamethrower/Overheat. Maybe there's more that I'm missing, but Weavile is going to be a p. serious threat right now.

 

[Mozilla Fennekin]

I don't think Weavile will stay, especially if Crawdaunt was out. The two have the same Attack stat, very similar bulk, Knock Off to boot, and Dark+something. At least Crawdaunt was slow. Weavile's even faster than Tornadus-T, plus he's got two priority STABs. He can be countered for sure, but he's now the best Knock Off user and one of the best revenge-killers in the game, if not the best.

 

[Patrick1088]

I don't think Weavile will stay, especially if Crawdaunt was out. The two have the same Attack stat, very similar bulk, Knock Off to boot, and Dark+something. At least Crawdaunt was slow. Weavile's even faster than Tornadus-T, plus he's got two priority STABs. He can be countered for sure, but he's now the best Knock Off user and one of the best revenge-killers in the game, if not the best.

I dont think this is accurate. Whike they have similar atk stats, crawdaunt has adaptability boosting knock off and aqua jet to much stronger levels. Whike knock off is appealing on weavile, it loses icicle crash and must run ice punch.

Lets not forget that water stab is great especially against hera wbo usually has no problem switching in on weavile and can easily pick it off. Combine stealth rock weaknesses, weakness to steel and fighting, both of which have priority esprcially for metagross who doeant care about ice shard.

While they may look similar, that ice typing makes it more difficult to come in and is easiky checked by fire types (darm and victini), bulky fighting types like toxicroak and heracross, and hard hitters with priority like metqgross or arcanine.

 

[dumbguyfin]

Zygarde is pretty broken (sub coil), but Tor-T is rarely a problem for my teams, maybe its just because i mostly run balanced or stall. M-Manectric with wish support is a great switch in for it

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Playing with Weavile is reminding me of Bisharp a bit. Not on the same ridiculous level (Ice is a much worse type defensively than Steel for starters, so Weavile can't switch in so easily), but with its high attack stat and being Dark-type, it can often freely spam Knock Off.

 

[Sound]

I'm rather glad Ton-T got the boot. Knock Off in addition to moves that could maim nearly every Knock Off dummy (expection of M-Ampharos) made it rather annoying. Though, I'm also going to have to change most my teams a bit lol. Relied on it too much. Gonna have to find a new favorite pivot.

 

[effyouzion]

Banning Torn-T makes me sad, he was omnipresent and a great mon but never unstoppable or too powerful relative to other threats. Zygarde probably deserved the boot, however.

Looking forward to mHoundoom staying around. Doubt Weavile will but we'll see.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Hopefully Weavile Stay! I hope Torn and Zygarde get out of UU; not necessarily because I think they are OP, but they are fucking annoying.

And I do not think comparing Crawdaunt and Weavile is appropiate. Crawdaunt has a very useful ability in Adaptability, while Weavile has a fairly worthless combination of abilities. Secondly, Weavile is a fast hit and run pokemon, while Crawdaunt can run a DD, SD, CB or even CS set. I am much more afraid of Crawdaunt than Weavile.

 

[pokemonisfun]

On the bright side I like using Houndoomnite and always got thrashed by Tornadus so I like those decisions personally (although is Tornadus reallllyyy broken?)

On the less bright side I have used a variant of Zygarde on all but one of my teams from Subcoil to DD to Rest Talk...I may need to rebuild teams. Anyone who is near my timezone and ladders when I do has probably played me with Zygarde multiple times considering over the past weeks I have racked up an extraordinarily unhealthy amount of games. Totally thought Zygarde was broken always though and I am actually shocked still the council took this long to BL it when previously it didn't get even a single vote while random(ish) guys like Suicune got votes. Seriously Slowbro is generally more effective than Suicune...

overall pleased with the changes but only slightly