responses to this thread:
Another nominee I have is sylveon to B tier, it's strong hyper voice can spell trouble for a lot of cap pokemon, and it's incredibly bulky. It doesn't belong in the same rank as mega gardevoir at all.
fair enough, sylveon is common enough in the tier that I think a rank boost is justified. and I've seen you use it well enough that you know what you're talking about here
Why is it that Quagsire is listed as B- when its role is matched by Arghonaut? Wouldn't that relegate it to C rather than B?
In the Aurumoth and Voodoom descriptions, you spelled "mixed" with an extra x.
Quagsire isn't weak to Psychic/Flying, which in the flying/psychic infested CAP metagame is a huge deal. Unaware mons are great in general but Quagsire is better at walling Mons like Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile, and Cawmodore, for that reason it's listed where it is. Scald is also a nice move that Argh wishes it has. Since Jas tends to use Quag a lot I'd be interested in his opinion on the mon in CAP.
I would like to nominate Kitsunoh for A or A- rank.
It can demolish Fairies with a STAB Meteor Mash or Iron Head, and can easily tank their Moonblasts and Hyper Voices despite its relative fraility. If you need a solid answer to Fairies, the bane of many, many CAP pokemon, look no further. It's almost the sole reason I even run Kitsunoh on my team.
Moreover, Defog was merely a flavor move on it back in Gen 4, but it is now a decent Defogger, as it resists SR and is immune to TS.
On a side note, Tomohawk can at least Taunt Clefable before it starts to stall, and Hurricane still does a decent amount to Sylveon before it sets off that Hyper Voice.
The A tier Pokemon tend to be threats on every single team they're used on, and have a very specific niche no other Pokemon fill well. This really isn't the case with Kitsunoh- it doesn't hit hard enough to replace something like Latios as a dedicated revenge killer, it's outclassed by Aegislash as a bulky Steel/Ghost type, it doesn't have a reliable fire type move (so it can't even check Cawmodore well), and it leads to Colossoil traps where you have to play a guessing game between an incoming Knock Off or Earthquake. That 103 attack stat is another issue, as it really needs more power to make use of it's already weak coverage moves. As it stands, the Scarf set can't even OHKO Garchomp with Ice Punch:
252 Atk Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 292-348 (81.5 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If it had something like 125 Attack and access to Fire Punch I might agree that it deserves A tier, but as it stands it has a more niche use that can only be used to it's full potential with support from other pivots like Colossoil. Kitsunoh is excellent as a scout, check to Kyurem-B/Aurumoth/Fairies, and for momentum control, but it's definitely not one of the "flagship" CAP Pokemon that can singlehandedly improve the effectiveness of teams without any support.
As for the fairies... I agree they're not perfect, and Tomohawk does have ways to prevent them from setting up, but they're still some of the most reliable switchins to standard defensive CAP cores (think Tomohawk/Cyclohm/Colossoil). This gives them an invaluable niche on offensive teams.
Now that I think about it, I think Tomohawk should be moved down to A+. Its not bad in any way, but my god is it overated. Cawmodore eats this thing for breakfest. And depending on the set a Gardevoir with Trace and Taunt and max speed can completely nutter this thing. It also struggles aganist fairy types and pokemon like Talonflame.
I also think Cawmodore should be moved up to S. Other than the rare Quagsire, this thing has no counters. It can safely switch into any physical attacker (If it has intimidate) or electric type (If it has Volt Absorb). Its Acrobatics does insane amounts of damage, capable of even 2HKOing Cyclhom. It doesn't need to worry about Arghonaut because it is already SE aganist it.
Prankster Haze/Reflect Tomo (my current favorite set) actually hard counters Cawmodore, and there's no chance Cawmodore can ever set up on it if it's already out due to it's inability to tank multiple Aura Spheres. Gardevoir is extremely easy to wall and takes a huge amount of damage on the switchin from Hurricane if Tomo is using it. The only consistently reliable switchins to Tomohawk are Krilowatt and bulky Fairy types. Everything else tends to get heavily crippled by a specific set.
As for Cawmodore I think you're overestimating it's capabilities. The standard Jolly set cannot 2HKO max def Cyclohm with any moves bar rare coverage moves such as Knock Off or Return, and even then gets either phazed out or smashed by Fire Blast before it can land a second hit. Cyclohm doesn't even have to risk a miss to beat it, simply spamming Slack Off until Cawmodore gets paralyzed by Static is enough to render the metal bird deadweight. Arghonaut doesn't have to kill Cawmodore, just Roar it out- without that extra Sitrus Berry health, it's never going to get another chance to set up. Cawmodore in general is something that tends to wreck newer players but requires a lot of support to accomplish anything against experienced players using proper balanced teams.
list of suggested changes
I have to disagree with the comparison of Necturna to Charizard for the main reason that the "moveset surprise factor" is severely limited in a tier where there simply are not enough players to reliably catch people off guard on a regular basis. And while it can do a lot of things well, it can rarely do multiple things well at the same time- it can be a good hazard layer with Sticky Web, a good lead with Spore, or a sweeper with Shell Smash, but it can almost never do multiple team roles well. It doesn't help that it tends to have rather poor matchups against some of the most common CAP Pokemon- Tomohawk and Cyclohm can wall both special and physical sets while hitting it with super effective moves, and Colossoil just wrecks it with Sucker Punch. Necturna is something I think would be a hell of a lot more dangerous in a tournament setting when you're revealing a team for the first time- but on the ladder, I just don't think it's quite on Tomohawk's level.
Arghonaut's enormous niche over Quagsire and Clefable is access to Roar, which is absolutely huge in a meta where Tail Glow Aurumoth and Belly Drum Cawmodore can threaten to plow through teams. Even if Arghonaut cannot outright beat something it switches into, it's incredibly hard to OHKO (the physically bulky set can take a Brave Bird from Choice Band Talonflame) and can just phase it out for another chance for an offensive team to sweep. As a one-stop pivot and emergency check to practically every sweeper in existence, I think Arghonaut can't be beat.
Since so many CAPmons get demolished by Talonflame and since Cyclohm utterly and totally walls every conceivable set far better than Wash Rotom ever could, that alone is enough to justify it's high usage rate in the tier. But being able to stop Cawmodore, Mega Charizard Y (yes, it can do this), Mega Pinsir (with Shuca berry), Keldeo, Scizor, and many other sweepers in their tracks just increases it's ability to solidify teams looking for a reliable bulky pivot and supporter. It can even take on Tomohawk relatively reliably, something every team usually needs multiple checks for. I did not include this in the analysis but Cylcohm is likely going to be one of the best counters to the upcoming CAP 18 due to it's massive bulk, STAB electric moves and resistance to Fire/Water attacks. This heavily depends on what moves CAP 18 is going to get but it is something relevant to consider.
Pyroak, despite being practically universally ignored by the top ranked CAP players, is still an extremely popular Pokemon for a LOT of newer players and has a ton of bulk and useful support moves such as Will-o-wisp and Stealth Rock to work with. I'm rather hesitant to knock it down several ranks without seeing if other players have managed to use it well and what Pokemon tend to check/counter it reliably. Keep in mind that Cyclohm was generally looked at as one of the worst CAPmons at the beginning of Gen 6 CAP until we started experimenting with physically bulky sets (which had already existed to some degree since it's first creation, but were considered more of a gimmick than its primary use). There may be some hidden potential to Pyroak that we're just not seeing yet.
I do agree with you on Fidgit though, it tends to be so outclassed by the likes of Mollux and Skarmory as a hazard user that without some crazy new Trick Room tech coming into play it's very hard to justify using it. Even if you want fast hazards, Deoxys Speed tends to outclass it entirely. Since Fidgit has been heavily debated in the CAP room already and the general consensus is that it isn't very good, I'm going to move it down to
C Rank for the time being.
wow so Persistent actually works now? when the hell did this happen, cause it sure wasn't working when I tested it earlier this month
A couple questions for other posters in this thread:
-What do you think about the viability of Pyroak as an offensive sweeper? A bulky pivot/hazard setter?
-How does it compare to other bulky grass types such as Venusaur and Ferrothorn?