Resource LC Viability Rankings

[doomsday doink]

They're comparable in a couple roles, but for the most part Timburr outclasses Croagunk in those roles. If Croagunk were to be A, then it's not because has a meta defining role or some unique, essential niche, but because it's able to fulfill more than one role at once. The problem that keeps it B in my opinion is that it's being thrust in a defensive role by those arguing for A without recovery. That is where the forcing switches as an argument against it comes into play- Croagunk can't continue to do its job when it's worn down, and doesn't have good enough bulk to overcome that.

As for the fact that it beats Timburr, it better be able to beat Timburr, or else I'd be arguing that it'd go down to C rank. One of the main things that's been argued in its favor is that it counters the common fighting types in the tier. If it couldn't beat one of the three it has to, then it doesn't deserve A rank in any way. However, the argument that it counters fairies is very, very weak. Croagunk obviously beats or forces out Cottonee (but would you leave something like pawniard in on a fighting type?), but Snubbull beats it with Earthquake, and Spritzee...

12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 212 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO

108+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 14-20 (51.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Quiet, 0 Speed Croagunk speed ties with 12 Speed Spritzee, bringing it down to a 50/50 chance. But making it even worse for croagunk is the 30% chance of a special attack drop from moonblast. If Spritzee wins the second speed tie, or Croagunk gets a special attack drop when it switches in, Spritzee will win. That's not good for Croagunk's ability to counter fairies, as now it's at 1 absolute counter, 1 kinda sorta counter (less than 50% of the time) and one kinda sorta check (Croagunk speed ties with min speed Snubbull too).

Snover is B because it can either do Blizzspam, which is still a hard attack to switch into if you lack a resist, or it can run DEFENSIVE SNOVER. It might move to C though, considering there's no more Murkrow for it to Blizzspam beat. It does surprise Fletchling with ice shard, though.

DEFENSIVE SNOVER is coming back. You all just wait.

 

[kingmidas]

DEFENSIVE SNOVER is coming back. You all just wait.

Your calcs involve no prior damage or SR to really prove something (involving other threads or wherever you put them), unless wish support its really suboptimal aside from a 1 time revenge killer thats useless after the take out vs stuff like pawniard/timburr which you claim it can do something against. So aside from checking chinchou and like 2 things maybe that foongus doesn't answer better isn't making a comeback, at least last gen it had mixkrow revenge killing capabilities/sand checking. Now its like blast off blizzards and giga drains (which is always helpful for recovery but somewhat weak when you have blizzard in the wing) until you're forced out because of that slower speed that scarf patches up.

 

[Heysup]

They're comparable in a couple roles, but for the most part Timburr outclasses Croagunk in those roles. If Croagunk were to be A, then it's not because has a meta defining role or some unique, essential niche, but because it's able to fulfill more than one role at once. The problem that keeps it B in my opinion is that it's being thrust in a defensive role by those arguing for A without recovery. That is where the forcing switches as an argument against it comes into play- Croagunk can't continue to do its job when it's worn down, and doesn't have good enough bulk to overcome that.

As for the fact that it beats Timburr, it better be able to beat Timburr, or else I'd be arguing that it'd go down to C rank. One of the main things that's been argued in its favor is that it counters the common fighting types in the tier. If it couldn't beat one of the three it has to, then it doesn't deserve A rank in any way. However, the argument that it counters fairies is very, very weak. Croagunk obviously beats or forces out Cottonee (but would you leave something like pawniard in on a fighting type?), but Snubbull beats it with Earthquake, and Spritzee...

12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 212 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO

108+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 14-20 (51.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Quiet, 0 Speed Croagunk speed ties with 12 Speed Spritzee, bringing it down to a 50/50 chance. But making it even worse for croagunk is the 30% chance of a special attack drop from moonblast. If Spritzee wins the second speed tie, or Croagunk gets a special attack drop when it switches in, Spritzee will win. That's not good for Croagunk's ability to counter fairies, as now it's at 1 absolute counter, 1 kinda sorta counter (less than 50% of the time) and one kinda sorta check (Croagunk speed ties with min speed Snubbull too).

Timburr outclasses it in terms of pure power but not versatility which was my point....again. You say "without recovery" but it has more reliable recovery than Timburr does in Water Absorb so that point really works against you. It further brings up the fact that unlike Timburr and Mienfoo, Croagunk does not need full HP to do its job against Carvanha and Tirtouga since they can't do anything with their water-type STAB and need to use their other STAB that's resisted and has no flinch chance.

I never said that mix gunk counters Spritzee but the other sets all do. Additionally, even just checking Spritzee is something the other Fighting-types can't do in the first place. Comparing Croagunk to a weak Timburr just shows a gross lack of experience with it, frankly.

Snover is B because it can either do Blizzspam, which is still a hard attack to switch into if you lack a resist, or it can run DEFENSIVE SNOVER. It might move to C though, considering there's no more Murkrow for it to Blizzspam beat. It does surprise Fletchling with ice shard, though.

0 Atk Snover Ice Shard vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 12-14 (52.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
(12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14)
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Snover: 38-48 (172.7 - 218.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(38, 38, 38, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 48)

Surprise!

 

[doomsday doink]

Your calcs involve no prior damage or SR to really prove something (involving other threads or wherever you put them), unless wish support its really suboptimal aside from a 1 time revenge killer thats useless after the take out vs stuff like pawniard/timburr which you claim it can do something against. So aside from checking chinchou and like 2 things maybe that foongus doesn't answer better isn't making a comeback, at least last gen it had mixkrow revenge killing capabilities/sand checking. Now its like blast off blizzards and giga drains (which is always helpful for recovery but somewhat weak when you have blizzard in the wing) until you're forced out because of that slower speed that scarf patches up.

KM chill... It's a joke set that worked once, so I hyped it.. lol

 

[Corporal Levi]

In my opinion Shellos deserves to be somewhere on this list. It has many defend able points for putting it on a team, such as due to its sticky hold ability it can't lose its eviolite. Another one of these reasons is though it doesn't have the best offensive stats it isn't setup fodder because it has access to clear smog and scald does some decent damage. Another definable point is the access to both acid armor and amnesia, putting together that point and the fact that it can't lose its eviolite makes it one hell of a wall. these are reasons why shellos needs to at least be a C

Acid Armor/Amnesia is a tad bit gimmicky, but otherwise I think I agree. Rank Shellos please

 

[prem]

ugh i guess you guys win.

croagunk can move back to A even if i think its a shitty mon.
shellos will be c


people discuss how bad snover is and anything else thats controversal or some crap.

 

[Heysup]

snover is bad as fuck. Put it in c.

 

[shmeur]

Buneary really needs to be ranked. It's a viable baton passer.

 

[Rowan]

Buneary really needs to be ranked. It's a viable baton passer.

Buneary has gone to D for now... if anyone thinks it should be moved to C, post an argument

Personally, I think Snover is better off in C - BlizzSpam is nice and all, but it's not powerful enough to give it a niche over other things. I'd prefer to use Amaura, whos typing is more relevant in a Flying-type dominated metagame. Yes, Snover can check Chinchou and Staryu but all it does is force it out. Snover can be too easily switched into and taken advantage of for B imo

Proposing Tyrunt for D - now Krow is gone it really has no niche. as a sweeper, it's outclassed by Tirtouga and even Dwebble. As a bulky pivot, it's outclassed by any other defensive Rock-type like Archen, Onix or whatever. It really has no niche good enough for even C rank.

Proposing Meowth for D - why is this C anyway? It's kinda weak even with technician boosted shit (I'd even prefer to use Aipom - no bias honestly). Technician boosted Fake Out just isn't worth it imo.

Inkay for D - scarf superpower isn't good enough to sweep late game anyway - Night Slash and Psycho Cut are kinda weak. Scarf+Switcheroo is outclassed by Binacle, Missy, Gastly etc... Trick Room set kinda sucks. Topsy Turvy is gimmicky.

Goldeen for D - Aside from Knock Off, why use this over Chinchou who checks all the same things AND more. 25% recovery is better than an SpA boost which you don't need anyway. The only thing Goldeen does better than Chinchou is check opposing Chinchou.

Just trying to clean up C-Rank =]

 

[Celestavian]

Snover needs to go to C. The sand nerf killed it, seeing as that's literally the only reason people used it. LC Hail is simply not a good strategy, so without sand and even Murkrow for Snover to check, it's pretty much useless.

 

[Merritt]

Snover should be C-rank. With the Rise of Fletchling as the primary bird, Snover simply cannot check all the birds it used to, and its reliance on scarf makes it predictable. Defensive Snover, while a novel approach that can surprise some people, ends up being ineffective against the offensive types that dominate the meta- it just doesn't have the typing that would make it viable. Ultimately, Snover really fell to C after SwirlGar ended, and it lost one of the few major threats it was extremely good at checking.

Tyrunt does have a niche that qualifies it for C-rank in its pseudo-STAB coverage in bite moves. It's not the easiest thing to use, but if used correctly it's not easy to take down.

Buneary, much as I loathe it, can theoretically be C. Klutz switcheroo is notable in its own right, and its speed makes it equal to the task of giving the opponent really bad items. It does also have the sometimes effective Cosmic Power+Baton Pass, which can be very effective. However, Baton Pass has its own flaws. I've never used Buneary on a serious team, only had it used against me, and it was either complete garbage (though it demanded attention) or something that allowed Fletchling to beat my entire team.

 

[tcr]

Tyrunt does have a niche that qualifies it for C-rank in its pseudo-STAB coverage in bite moves. It's not the easiest thing to use, but if used correctly it's not easy to take down.

Ummm since when is decent coverage a standard for being a niche? It is outclassed in everything it does, and is almost always a liability on teams.

 

[The Avalanches]

Tyrunt isn't special and there isn't any real reason to run it over any other offensive sweeper or Stealth Rocker. It's stats are decent, but its' typing sucks way too much.

EDIT: Move it to D. Why did I forget that?

 

[BigCup]

Remoraid!!! I really think remoraid should be atleast D or C-, I mean its coverage is really great (Fire Blast, Seed Bomb, Psychic, etc) and it also gets Water Spout and Sniper! I really think this thing should deserve C- because it's actually pretty decent, although frail it hits really hard!!! I forgot to say with a choice scarf especially. xD Also, another pokemon I feel is too good for its rank, Minccino!!! Minccino is also a really hard hitter, and you can even give it a scarf and its STILL a hard hitter with tail slap/u-turn with Skill Link. I know it sounds a little cheap and most people would want it to stay in D but I used it a couple times and it did work for me all the time. WITH A SCARF! not even a Band or Life Orb! It also has a great movepool including Knock Off! I feel the same for Machop too, Machop has scarf Dynamic Punch and Knock Off as well, I feel its a great revenge killer and I feel it should be moved up to C (I know Scraggy and Mienfoo are better than Machop, but I really think Machop should get a boost. Also, this seems a little fuzzy but, Chinchou for S!!! it performs a variety of roles, it has a great movepool, its really bulky. You can scarf it, (which isn't as common now that Gligar is gone) It is super bulky (RestTalk, Scald, Volt Switch, Discharge) and it has the same typing Rotom-Wash does (Electric/Water) also with an immunity to Electric and only 2 weaknesses. Chinchou is a threat. I know that Chou can be taken out easily in some occasions but I really think Chou is good. I'm fine with it in A+ but I feel if it gets any better it should be S. Hell you can even give this thing Agility with Life Orb!

 

[gali]

Ok, why the heck is Riolu still in C? It's a fantastic mon this meta and keeping it in C is an absolute disgrace. Prankster Copycat is insanely good; with it, Riolu can do almost anything. A Swords Dance set turns it into a terrifying sweeper that's almost impossible to stop, while a set with Substitute becomes extremely annoying to play against. It also has the notable trait of being the only Fighting-type in the tier not to give a single fuck about Fletchling: Copycatting High Jump Kick allows it to outspeed and OHKO Fletchling after Stealth Rock. Basically, the stupid amount of versatility and offensive utility that Prankster Copycat provides definitely boosts Riolu to at least B-Rank.

 

[Good_Luck!]

I absolutly agree with Toa Tahu. Keeping Riolu in C is disregarding the phenomenal ability to make every attacking move into a Priority Attack. Sub + Copycat + 2 attacks is insane, the epitome of battling skills.

Having it in C with the argument of "no more CopyRoar" is wrong in so much levels is not funny at all.

 

[Rowan]

Lol CopyRoar was never the reason Riolu moved down this gen, CopyRoar was generally regarded as a shit strategy. I'd be happy to move Riolu up since Apt-Get wrecked me with it that time...... It is literally the only fighting-type that can sweep without being revenged by Fletchling, which is a fantastic niche. Also Protect+Copycat provides incredible amounts of utility allowing it to revenge many things, especially Scraggy and even random stuff like weakened Misdreavus. It's a mon that requires a lot of thought to play with however, so can often be difficult to pull off for newer players.

 

[BigCup]

Ok, why the heck is Riolu still in C? It's a fantastic mon this meta and keeping it in C is an absolute disgrace. Prankster Copycat is insanely good; with it, Riolu can do almost anything. A Swords Dance set turns it into a terrifying sweeper that's almost impossible to stop, while a set with Substitute becomes extremely annoying to play against. It also has the notable trait of being the only Fighting-type in the tier not to give a single fuck about Fletchling: Copycatting High Jump Kick allows it to outspeed and OHKO Fletchling after Stealth Rock. Basically, the stupid amount of versatility and offensive utility that Prankster Copycat provides definitely boosts Riolu to at least B-Rank.

I agree with that too. Riolu is still great with Bulk Up + Copycat Drain Punch Crunch

 

[Brosb4Ho-ohs]

I think Diglett should stay in B rank because it functions very similarly to Wynaut, come in on a good opportunity and make a kill. However, Diglett's lack of bulk and weakness to priority and hazards stop it from going any farther. More often then not, Diglett will just kill a poke, and die later to death fodder, priority, or hazards. Diglett perfectly fits the LC B rank description by being great in the metagame by OHKOing Key threats like chinchou and pawniard, it's postive traits in it's speed outshine his negative traits in its lack of bulk, and it requires some team support to help aid it's weaknesses in hazards and priority. Thus, this justifies Diglett as B-rank.

 

[Kavatika]

responding to one of Rowan's earlier posts, just put Stunky in D rank for now. all it can really do is defog and pursuit trap a few things which makes it usable, but there are better things and it doesn't have any niche.

also so I can get the icon for my sig sooner

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

responding to one of Rowan's earlier posts, just put Stunky in D rank for now. all it can really do is defog and pursuit trap a few things which makes it usable, but there are better things and it doesn't have any niche.

also so I can get the icon for my sig sooner

stunky doesn't fart enough

it can't learn defog, only skuntank does.

 

[Kappaten]

stunky doesn't fart enough

it can't learn defog, only skuntank does.

Stunky definitely gets defog.

 

[Anthiese]

incoming long post

ugh i guess you guys win.


croagunk can move back to A even if i think its a shitty mon.
shellos will be c


people discuss how bad snover is and anything else thats controversal or some crap.

I love Snover but all it's really good for is revenging not Fletching bird mons like Archen and Doduo and luring Pawniard with HP Fight. That is pretty much it.

Snover should be C-rank. With the Rise of Fletchling as the primary bird, Snover simply cannot check all the birds it used to, and its reliance on scarf makes it predictable. Defensive Snover, while a novel approach that can surprise some people, ends up being ineffective against the offensive types that dominate the meta- it just doesn't have the typing that would make it viable. Ultimately, Snover really fell to C after SwirlGar ended, and it lost one of the few major threats it was extremely good at checking.

Tyrunt does have a niche that qualifies it for C-rank in its pseudo-STAB coverage in bite moves. It's not the easiest thing to use, but if used correctly it's not easy to take down.

Buneary, much as I loathe it, can theoretically be C. Klutz switcheroo is notable in its own right, and its speed makes it equal to the task of giving the opponent really bad items. It does also have the sometimes effective Cosmic Power+Baton Pass, which can be very effective. However, Baton Pass has its own flaws. I've never used Buneary on a serious team, only had it used against me, and it was either complete garbage (though it demanded attention) or something that allowed Fletchling to beat my entire team.

Buneary is awesome dont hate! Although it has meh defenses and WONDERFUL support options. I personally use an Agilipass set with Return and Encore and it does work very well on shutting down TWavers since Limber blocks paralysis. Personally it can stay where it is. It's not like it's killing everything and it's not like it's dead weight. It's a fantastic support mon that simply doesnt have too little movesets to work with imo.

Tyrunt isnt that great imo. DD + Fangs is great but it has to run Evio and is outsped by a lot of things. I honestly dont know what it's doing before hand. Fighting mons can just come in and Drain Punch and be done right? I guess you could run Aerial Ace to beat Fighting-types?

Hide

+1 204+ Atk Tyrunt Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but...
196+ Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 14-20 (63.6 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 204+ Atk Tyrunt Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but...
236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 14-20 (63.6 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 204+ Atk Tyrunt Aerial Ace vs. 212 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 16-20 (66.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but...
28 Atk Croagunk Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 12-14 (54.5 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You risk getting KO'd from their priorities, Well Fake Out from Meinfoo shouldnt really help it's case
236+ Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 1-2 (4.5 - 9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

...lol so you beat Mienfoo but not Timburr or Croagunk.

Tyrunt can stay where it is for now.

Ok, why the heck is Riolu still in C? It's a fantastic mon this meta and keeping it in C is an absolute disgrace. Prankster Copycat is insanely good; with it, Riolu can do almost anything. A Swords Dance set turns it into a terrifying sweeper that's almost impossible to stop, while a set with Substitute becomes extremely annoying to play against. It also has the notable trait of being the only Fighting-type in the tier not to give a single fuck about Fletchling: Copycatting High Jump Kick allows it to outspeed and OHKO Fletchling after Stealth Rock. Basically, the stupid amount of versatility and offensive utility that Prankster Copycat provides definitely boosts Riolu to at least B-Rank.

I agree, Riolu can get very far with Protect + Copycat. I've had one annihilate my Voltturn with the right support. But within that it's stuck against Status users in my opinion. Missy / Chinchou will not think twice to burn and paralyze him to make it easier to deal with. It can still copy and turn the tables on them (well Chinchou cant be para'd)

 

[Mienfoo]

I think that Stunky should atleast be a D or a C. The fact that he can defog AND pursuit trap is good enough for atleast D. Also it gets Sucker Punch as well so you can play some mindgames with your opponent. Also, I know alot of people will disagree with me on this but I think Bunnelby should get A. Pop a scarf on it and it can SWEEP teams! I know Misdreavus stops that due to being immune to Return/Earthquake, and taking resisted damage from U-turn. I still think that Bunnelby deserves A. If it gets a physical dark move any time soon (mainly Knock Off) I think it has possibility to EASILY get S.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

I think that Stunky should atleast be a D or a C. The fact that he can defog AND pursuit trap is good enough for atleast D. Also it gets Sucker Punch as well so you can play some mindgames with your opponent. Also, I know alot of people will disagree with me on this but I think Bunnelby should get A. Pop a scarf on it and it can SWEEP teams! I know Misdreavus stops that due to being immune to Return/Earthquake, and taking resisted damage from U-turn. I still think that Bunnelby deserves A. If it gets a physical dark move any time soon (mainly Knock Off) I think it has possibility to EASILY get S.

It has Thief
for Missy