Little Cup DP extension Discussion

[RicepigeonKKM]

Now that DP is out, I'm beginning to see the famous Little Cup in a new light with DP's enhancements such as physical/special splits, new moves, new Pokemon, and older Pokemon that are now eligible.

Basic summary of Little Cup according to Thorn's ADV Little Cup Guide:

- Sleep Clause
- Only Pokemon hatched from eggs are eligible.
- Eligible Pokemon must be able to evolve, and be the first in an evolution chain. So, no Lv5 Skarm, or Lv5 Blissey.
- Item Clause is in effect.
- All Pokemon used MUST be Lv5.
- Selfdestruct Clause is on.
- Sonicboom and Dragon Rage are banned.
- Evasion/accuracy moves are NOT allowed.
- OHKO moves are NOT allowed.
- Chansey, Scyther, & Meditite are banned.

Just for reference, in Little Cup, 196 EVs has the same effect as 255 EVs (the max)

Since certain Pokemon received evolutions and/or pre-evolutions, the eligibility list has been changed. For example, Chansey by definition is no longer eligible now that Chansey has Happiny as a pre-evolution.

New Eligible Pokemon:
Turtwig
Chimchar
Piplup
Starly
Bidoof
Kricketot
Shinx
Budew
Cranidos
Sheildon
Burmy
Combee
Buizel
Cherubi
Shellos
Drifloon
Buneary
Glameow
Chingling
Stunky
Bronzor
Bonsly
Mime Jr.
Happiny
Gible
Munchlax
Riolu
Hippopotas
Skorupi
Croagunk
Finneon
Mantyke
Snover

Previously ineligible Pokemon that are now eligible
Tangela*
Lickitung*
Aipom
Murkrow*
Misdreavus*
Sneasel*
Yanma*
Nosepass*

Anything denoted with a * indicates an agreed-upon ban for this Pokemon.

Previously eligible Pokemon that are now ineligible
none

Essentially Little Cup gained some big bullies in Licki and Sneasel, and possibly Misdreavus. Like Chansey in ADV, these 2/3 could possibly be banned. Murkrow probably as well. And Yanma's Speed Boost can turn Little Cup into a bloodbath, my money goes on his ban as well.

Some facts

- Cranidos only needs 14 speed to outspeed everything with Choice Scarf, including Voltorb, Elekid, and Diglett.
- Max Sp.Atk, Modest, Choice Specs Abra has a chance to OHKO Max HP, Max Sp.Def Munchlax with a Neutral nature.

Potential Movesets

Abra @; Choice Specs/Scarf
76 HP, 196 Speed, 236 Sp.Atk
Modest/Timid
- Psychic
- Energy Ball
- HP Fighting/Water
- Shadow Ball


A real beast If I can say so. Energy Ball obliterates Larvitar, HP Fighting can OHKO Houndour, one of Abra's best counters in ADV, and Munchlax. Shadow Ball can rip apart Abras, Duskulls, Gastlys (but you have Psychic for that), and lets you hit Bronzor for neutral damage.


Personal Opinion
- Mime Jr. looks sort of promising. It has a max of 279 Sp.Def at lv.100, AND the ability to nullify any Super Effective attacks against it to normal damage.

- Taillow may still overshadow Starly, as the two have the same stats except speed, which Taillow still dominates Starly in. Taillow has access to Guts, while Starly has to deal with Keen Eye until it evolves.

- Hippopotas and Snover introduce permanent weather into Little Cup play, ADV Little Cup had none as Kyogre/Groudon are banned and Larvitar doesn't get Sandstream. Combined with Hippopotas, Larvitar and Gible become forces to reckon with, but using two ground types isn't exactly something I would use myself.

- Abra unfortunately loses the Elemental punches, but his access to all Hidden Power types, Special Shadow Ball for other Psychics, and Energy Ball make up for it. He gets Grass Knot as well, but not that many Pokemon in Little Cup are heavy enough to make Grass Knot worth the use. Now with Choice Specs, combined with his already high speed, can make Abra just as good in DP Little Cup as he was in GSC and ADV Little Cup.

- Houndour loses Crunch, but gains Dark Pulse, Nasty Plot, and Will-o-Wisp in its place. It can still counter Abra's Psychic, Shadow Ball, and Energy Ball, but the fact Abra can now use HP Water/Fighting with its Sp/Atk stat may reduce Houndour's use.

Any ideas are welcome.

 

[SynysterCola]

been lurking around the D/P board...two Pokemon stand out to me.

Bronzor can be quite the tank. reaching 298 max in Defense/Special Defense plus two decent traits could help.

Cranidos could function like it's evolution. It can reach an attack of 383(!), and if it gets a chance to Rock Polish or something, it could be very lethal. Sadly it may not live that long...but it's worth a try

 

[RicepigeonKKM]

Hippopotas could give it a survivability boost, but speed is still an issue. Also I forgot Tangela and Nosepass on the list of eligibles. Fixed.

Also looking over Snover, he's almost as bleh as his evo. He does get Swords Dance and learns Ice Shard as an antiRev attack, but he already has Snow Warning for that so whatever.

I'm also predicting a drop in Chinchou use due to Energy Ball, but he still looks good enough for anti-Boltbeam.

 

[obi]

Should the rules be amended to "all Pokemon must be level 1" now that eggs hatch at level 1?

 

[RicepigeonKKM]

That would make sense, but in my opinion it should stick to level 5 just so the rules are consistent across generations.

Of course it would probably be best to vote on it.

 

[Thorns]

I vote for Level 5, as in the old Little Cup you technically could not do EV training. I can see Happiny being banned like its fat big sister. Snover is too slow to be doing real damage, though the permanent Hail could see more usage with the likes of Ice types. IMO, the whole list of older pokemon that evolved should be banned. But, now there are so many we could make an Uber metagame! I also have varied opinions on Munchlax. Its HP is high like Happiny's, and the SDef is enough. Would he warrant a ban? Cranidos has the highest attack in Little Cup now. Is it too much for some? I agree with Bronzor being a wall. Mime Jr looks like it could see use too. Would Trick Room work with Little Cup being divided into slow pokemon and fast pokemon?

 

[SynysterCola]

Cranidos has the highest attack in Little Cup now. Is it too much for some?

IMO it shouldn't be a problem. It's quite fragile and slow, so it would take time setting it up.



P.S I agree to the LV 5. rule.

 

[X-Act]

Level 1 wouldn't make sense to be honest, as most of the stats would be 5 or 6, and some select few would have 7 in a stat.

 

[Deck Knight]

I vote for Level 5, as in the old Little Cup you technically could not do EV training. I can see Happiny being banned like its fat big sister. Snover is too slow to be doing real damage, though the permanent Hail could see more usage with the likes of Ice types. IMO, the whole list of older pokemon that evolved should be banned. But, now there are so many we could make an Uber metagame! I also have varied opinions on Munchlax. Its HP is high like Happiny's, and the SDef is enough. Would he warrant a ban? Cranidos has the highest attack in Little Cup now. Is it too much for some? I agree with Bronzor being a wall. Mime Jr looks like it could see use too. Would Trick Room work with Little Cup being divided into slow pokemon and fast pokemon?

Muchlax has more HP and SDef than Happiny and Happiny can't attack worth anything. Its almost a waste of a slot.

If anything is going to be banned, Munchlax is it. 135/40/85 Defenses are awesome in LC.

Oh, and Cranidos outspeeds everything with Choice Scarf. With Head Smash, EQ, and Pursuit its highly usable.

Edit: Don't discount physical Houndour. [Sub/Endure]/Reversal/Crunch/Fire Blast @ Salac is quite viable, and eats Abra and Gastly for breakfast. With no Hera, nothing resists Crunch/Reversal.

 

[Jibaku]

With no Hera, nothing resists Crunch/Reversal.

Croagunk

- Mime Jr. looks sort of promising. It has a max of 279 Sp.Def at lv.100, AND the ability to nullify any Super Effective attacks against it to normal damage.

I think Filter chops the attack by 1.25x

I vote for level 5. Level one pokemons have their stats a little too similar for this to work.

Also, you forgot Aipom on the usable list.

I think Sneasel will be banned since it has a base 115 speed and 95 attack, with access to STAB Ice Punch/Night Slash.

 

[TheMantyke]

I agree with jibaku on the sneasil grounds, also munchlax might see a lot of use with great attack and good Spdef. With the slow speed, he might be good for Trickroom.

 

[Sir Spanky]

I think it would be wise to ban Pokemon that can now evolve. Sneasel and Missyd would just dominate.

 

[RicepigeonKKM]

Yeah I was going to mention Munchlax.

If 255 EVs in every stat were possible, Munchlax gets 33 HP, 18 Attack, 13 Defense, 10 Speed, 13 Sp.Atk, and 18 Sp.Def.

Max Sp.Atk, Modest, Choice Specs Abra's Psychic = 17-21 dmg = 2HKO
Max Sp.Atk, Modest, Choice Specs Abra's HP Fighting = 28-33 dmg = 2HKO - OHKO

Thats without any nature boosts to Munchlax. With a Sp.Def nature, Muchlax gets 1 extra point in Sp.Def, but its enough to survive Abra's HP Fighting.

Unlike its evolution, Munchlax doesn't get Crunch, but it can OHKO Abra with Return and, if switching out, Pursuit, both with 0 Attack EVs.

And Deck Knight is right about Cranidos. It only needs 14 Speed (15 max) to outspeed Timid/Jolly Voltorb, Elekid, AND Diglett with Choice Scarf. Scarf Abra can OHKO with it Energy Ball though, and can outspeed it as well.

Also just coming up with some potential movesets (added to the first post)

Abra @; Choice Specs/Scarf
76 HP, 196 Speed, 236 Sp.Atk
Modest/Timid
- Psychic
- Energy Ball
- HP Fighting/Water
- Shadow Ball

A real beast If I can say so. Energy Ball obliterates Larvitar, HP Fighting can OHKO Houndour, one of Abra's best counters in ADV, and Munchlax. Shadow Ball can rip apart Abras, Duskulls, Gastlys (but you have Psychic for that), and lets you hit Bronzor for neutral damage.

 

[Thorns]

I need a verification on whether Aipom is banned, because I'm writing up an analysis.