Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

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I'm going to vote for Speed Boost Latias just because you said that Enigami
And because the other Pokemon don't really interest me.
Unaware Umbreon is cool I guess, but I don't know if that would be it OU.
Same for Mold Breaker Shuckle and Sucker Punch Pangoro. They obviously make them better, but I don't think it is a big enough boost to make it in the current OU meta.
 
Alright, might as well give my ideas since Speed Boost Lati is crazy. This slate doesn't appeal to me too much but I'll try.
Unaware Umbreon: Certainly the best of the entire slate. Being able to set up Unaware Curses is amazing. I hate Clefable too, so this one's gonna be really cool. It stops Pokémon like Serperior, Char X and M-Gyarados in their tracks.

Edit: Holy shit I just noticed mold breaker Gyara beats it ugh, this took me months to notice lmao

Mold Breaker Shuckle: This one's basically a "fuck you" to M-Sableye and that's about it. It's pretty useless outside of that. Sticky Web is a pretty bad playstyle with things like Bisharp and Serperior running around. Shuckle is aka a massive Sableye-is-broken boner. And that's really it. Sableye isn't even that hard to handle. There are better Stealth Rocks setters and better Pokémon in general.

Sucker Punch Pangoro: Pretty cool honestly, but I've never used this thing since I find it to be generally useless when ever I try to use it. I'd have to do a little more playing with this thing before I say anything.

Speed Boost Latios: If anyone votes for this I hope you fall out of a jet engine just to see what it feels like
 
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I think Unaware Umbreon is my pick of the litter this time around. Unaware is such an amazing ability to have in a metagame full of deadly setup sweepers. Unfortunately, it struggles against certain setup sweepers, such as Mega Diancie:
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Or Mega Altaria:
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Or Mega Gyarados (With Mold Breaker and Taunt)
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 151-178 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
I think Unaware Umbreon is my pick of the litter this time around. Unaware is such an amazing ability to have in a metagame full of deadly setup sweepers. Unfortunately, it struggles against certain setup sweepers, such as Mega Diancie:
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Or Mega Altaria:
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Or Mega Gyarados (With Mold Breaker and Taunt)
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 151-178 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
What I'd say is that this is one of the things that actually makes Umbreon a good pick here; all these Pokémon you'd use Clefable for -- this demonstrates that Clefable isn't made redundant and neither is Umbreon; they both hold Unaware but handle different things.
 
Unaware Umbreon

I really like Umbreon. It's a cool 'mon with good bulk and good movepool. Its biggest problem is that it was too passive and therefore setup bait, but now with Unaware it's certainly an improvement. It doesn't learn Calm Mind (which I was really surprised to learn), meaning it can't sweep, but Foul Play still does enough work. Clefable, of course, gives stiff competition, but Umbreon has much better bulk. Certainly not entirely outclassed.

Sucker Punch Pangoro

Is this the third time Pangoro's been on a slate? It's at least the second, which goes to show how popular of a 'mon it is, I suppose. Even so, Sucker Punch is a good addition to its movepool. Could be a fun partner with Bisharp, as Pangoro has exactly one less base attack than Bisharp. Could be a fun HO core.

Mold Breaker Shuckle

Allows Shuckle to set rocks on Mega Sableye and that's pretty much it. Gets its best matchup against Stall (as to how good that is, I don't know, but hey), but then Sticky Web is likely completely useless anyway, so if you're willing to sacrifice a moveslot to get rocks up on Mega Sableye, why not use Mold Breaker Excadrill?

Speed Boost Mega Latios

Potentially broken comments aside, this is a really good 'mon. No longer a "luxury Mega", this Jet Plane is here to wreck faces. Base 160 Special Attack and resistant to several kinds of priority, this'll be tough to beat. Can't beat Chansey or Clefable off the top of my head, causes 50/50s with Bisharp (if running CM, Sub, or Roost, and it'll almost guaranteed be running one of them), 2HKO'd by Talonflame, can beat Heatran with EQ... granted, most of these things were already true, but it now gets an even better matchup against the rest of the metagame.

Also, regarding the "does it get +1 on the turn it mega evolves" question: it absolutely should. In-game I used Blaziken with Blaze in OR, and upon Mega Evolution I got +1 speed on the turn I evolved. Dunno if that's been answered, but there you go.
 
Jesus Christ, why'd you have to give Mega Latios speed boost? That'd sweep a decent chunk of the meta, not to mention it doesn't even need protect because of its solid bulk...

Well at least I know what I'm voting for now. :toast:
 
Unaware Umbreon: Nice addition. We really need more defensive Dark types and it gives Umbreon a good niche. It's also got more raw bulk than any other Unaware user. Not really too hard to break either, because there's a lot of useable Fighting and Fairy types in the meta atm. Actually, screw niche this could be a defensive cornerstone, especially with Foul Play.

Sucker Punch Pangoro
: Nice add, but creates some 4mss between Drain Punch, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Gunk Shot and Swords Dance. Fixes the speed issue, but leaves it more easily walled by Fairies or without boosting. Still a nice add.

Mold Breaker Shuckle
: I get that it can Poison and lay Webs on Mega Eye, however Mega Eye is commonly paired with Tentacruel. Tenta kinda shits on this Shuckle between Scald, immunity to Toxic, and Spinning away Webs. I like it a little but not too hot on it.

Speed Boost Mega Latios
: Ew
 
Honestly, I think that Unaware is better served on things with better typing. Umbreon's typing leaves it weak to a lot of the common boosters. I counted 10 Pokemon that use boosting moves that can overwhelm Umbreon just because of its typing in the A+ through A- ranks alone (I also included M-Gyarados because Mold Breaker). I think we are overselling this one. The Fighting and Fairy weaknesses are what really kill this submission in my opinion.
 
Directed at the two damn posters who went before Ceptic, find something more constructive to post with Mega Lat complaining or dont post at all.


Anyway, to avoid this being another damn service message (and me being pissed off since my computer of all things got stolen while i was at a stock show...), i do enjoy the idea of a new unaware mon a lot, and while i will most likely be voting on it, id like to think a bit on Pangoro.

He is a panda who with the ORAS transition got some very nice things in his favor but one them is sadly still not speed. Sucker does fix that hes, but from what i think, its gonna become an aspect that helps split him into two different sets a bit as that would seem more at him home on the all out attacker if that becomes a thing and say a combo of sucoer parting shot to help make it easier on him (less likely to attack giving almost a free switch to get out). Addmiteadly yes, its not ground breaking, but its nice idea of a buff that isnt too farfetched and can be a little unique In how he is played.

Basically Parting Shot + Sucker Punch is my main thought of its appeal like most of yall, but i wont vote for it mainly cause i find most of the turn combos/moves annoying and hate seeing em ruin my games with easy clickiness. Thats all though.


And also last i checked we werent saying um to check all set up kons but act as a mon to utilize alongside Clef as a nice unaware twosome. Dont understand why we are saying umbreon is being oversold to check these things when it is capable of just being slapped with a teammate like most Stall mons are to help cover stuff. Im not saying it is a perfect mon but it is capable of doing a lot with better overall bulk and unaware.
 
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Ok, I'm blacklisting any discussion on Mega Latios, because clearly this thread can't handle it. I'm going to keep a list of users, from this moment on, that make remarks about Latios that derail the thread. You will be notified of your name on this, and your vote for the slate will not be counted.

We have all had enough of this, and it stops now.
 

Valmanway

My jimmies remain unrustled
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Please let us have the second-place round soon. I want Sand Rush Cacturne asap! lol Anyways...

Unaware Umbreon: I kind of like this one. Umbreon's track record isn't very good these days, with its support set being way too outclassed and its Curse set being garbage, but Unaware just might save it. Thanks to Unaware, Swords/Dragon Dance sweepers must tread carefully, as not only will their attacks not be powered up, but Foul Play will easily force them out if not KO them, so Talonflame, Excadrill, Garchomp, Diggersby, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Mega Charizard X, and regular Gyarados will be forced to switch out and lose their boosts, thus making Umbreon a great emergency stop to them. Special setup sweepers like Manaphy, Latios, Mega Slowbro, and Raikou are also unable to break through Umbreon's defenses, which is a nice bonus. Curse sets would be pretty nasty to face when you can't setup alongside it, as once Curse could mean the end for your physical sweepers, as even Kyurem-B can't break through Umbreon's defenses without Outrage. I gotta say, I'm liking this more than I thought I would.

Sucker Punch Pangoro: I can see some usefulness in this one. Pangoro already has just enough to pull its weight in OU, such as Gunk Shot to hit Fairies, Fire Punch to hit Ferrothron and Mega Scizor, and Parting Shot to cripple switch-ins and gain momentum. But Pangoro's biggest issue was always its horrendous Speed, leaving it at the mercy of so many threats that are so much faster. However, Sucker Punch will at least give Pangoro a chance to get the jump on sweepers that get greedy and think they can get a kill. As mentioned before me, Bisharp would appreciate a Sucker Punch teammate that not only threatens Steel-types with moves like Hammer Arm and Fire Punch, but also provides it a free switch thanks to Parting Shot, much like how Pangoro appreciates how Bisharp can handle Clefable and Sylveon very well, so Pangoro would be pretty effective with Bisharp as an offensive core. I like this one, but why doesn't Iron Fist power up Sucker Punch? Why, Game Freak? :'(

Mold Breaker Shuckle: I'm not getting this one at all. I get that the point of this is to let Shuckle get past Magic Bouncers and have unblockable Sticky Web and Stealth Rock, but that really isn't much of an improvement and doesn't fix any of its bigger problems. Shuckle is still beyond passive, vulnerable to Taunt, has a mediocre defensive typing, and lacks recovery, and considering the fact that Mold Breaker will only help against 3 or 4 Pokemon in Shuckle's case, it basically has no ability most of the time. I get that being able to set up hazards without worrying about Magic Bouncers is cool and all, but we're talking 4 Pokemon that ever see usage in OU with Magic Bounce, so this newfound niche will rarely be seen. Sorry, but I'm not liking this one too much.

Speed Boost Mega Latios:


Yeah, we might have gotten carried away with this one, myself included. My reasoning for thinking this wouldn't be broken was that Latios doesn't have a means to get to +2 Special Attack, which is what got Mega Blaziken its banishment. As it would turn out, many of you think that this is broken, and I'm starting to agree. With solid 80 / 100 / 120 defenses and a decent defensive typing, Mega Latios can easily take a hit if need be, and Calm Mind would make special attacks even less effective on him, and combined with 130 / 160 offenses on top of a wide movepool, trying to take a hit will be tough for offensive Pokemon. Having base 110 Speed before and after Mega Evolving is already great on its own, but adding Speed Boost to the mix would make it very hard to revenge kill this thing. In fact, Mega Latios' stats are so good that you don't even need Protect to safely set up, as he has the bulk to take a hit and the initial Speed to outrun key threats, so a Calm Mind + 3 Attack set would be very threatening. Long story short, I love this idea to death as Latios is my favorite Pokemon, but I still won't be voting for this.
 
My apologies, Sun King. I didn't have very long to post last time, so I thought I'd contribute to the "take latios off the slate" group.
Anyways, the two dark type submissions look interesting. Unaware Umbreon in particular sounds like it could be a pretty darn good mon, even checking mega latias! Will probably get my vote on this slate.
Not sure how much more I can contribute after Valmanway's excellent post
 
Are there any other moves Shuckle gets that can benefit from Mild Breaker though? Honestly, Shuckle is the kind of Pokemon that we can theorymon for weeks and add absolutely anything to and it still won't be usable while the stuff we add is capped at one addition. MSableye is its biggest problem now, sure, but it's not it's only one. Shuckle shucked (sorry) in XY, too - Mold Breaker Hazards is an improvement but it doesn't impact it enough. Also, Sticky Web against stall teams is rarely an optimal move, so it already kind of loses a niche there :/

It's not like Mold Breaker Infestation even does anything because Ghost immunities to trapping isn't an ability. Toxic won't even damage Clefable because Magic Guard blocks the damage and not the move, right?
((Gah. I'm just bored of all the dark type slates and am desperate to find something redeemable about Shuckle!))
 
Unaware Umbreon: Unaware is one of those go-to abilities that automatically makes any defensive pokemon better, along with Magic Guard or Magic Bounce. I don't know if this was answered already but does Unaware mean that Foul Play won't factor in any Attack boosts from an opponent in its damage calculation? Personally, I liked an earlier suggestion of making it Dark/Poison typing but I digress. Defensive Dark types have a niche for Psychic, Ghost and Dark attacks, and Umbreon can run some interesting sets with Unaware like Curse/Sucker Punch/Taunt/Moonlight or Fake Tears/Snarl/Toxic/Moonlight, well, a lot of options really. Even Charm and Baby-Doll Eyes would be really annoying for a sweeper.
Sucker Punch Pangoro: A much appreciated move as Sucker Punch is becoming of increasing value. Mold Breaker with Gunk Shot/Poison Jab makes it perfect for Clefable, but Scrappy and Sucker Punch/FIghting STAB allow it to decimate two of the S Rank Megas, Sableye and Metagross. One pokemon to shut down two of the leading megas? You'd be ludicrous to not run Pangoro at that point.
Mold Breaker Shuckle: Boring. I understand being able to lay Sticky Web and Stealth Rock through Magic Bounce is kinda cool, but this ability is useless against all the other playstyles where Sturdy would actually be of better use.
Speed Boost Mega Latios: This is just overkill. Speed Boost should never be an ability on something with such high stats as Mega Latios. It's broken on Blaziken, let alone Mega Blaziken. Scolipede is a perfect example of the ability not being broken. But this is simply unhealthy if you ask me. Now, maybe if you wanted to give him the boosting move Quiver Dance instead, I may be on board with that. But Mega Latios has all the moves and stats it needs to function really well, the problem is its base form. I'd say the ONLY thing Mega Latios needs is a type change to pure Dragon after megavolving. Imagine, no more Sucker Punch/Pursuit/U-Turn weakness. No more fear of speed ties with Gengar. If you want the Psychic and Fighting resistance, then use regular Latios. But pure Dragon is perfect for eliminating some key weaknesses, and is losing STAB Psychic moves really that terrible? Mega LAtios has more than enough coverage and boosting options.

EDIT: I only commented after seeing the slate, I didn't read any discussion yet. But whatever.
 
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Unaware Umbreon: Unaware is one of those go-to abilities that automatically makes any defensive pokemon better, along with Magic Guard or Magic Bounce. I don't know if this was answered already but does Unaware mean that Foul Play won't factor in any Attack boosts from an opponent in its damage calculation? Personally, I liked an earlier suggestion of making it Dark/Poison typing but I digress. Defensive Dark types have a niche for Psychic, Ghost and Dark attacks, and Umbreon can run some interesting sets with Unaware like Curse/Sucker Punch/Taunt/Moonlight or Fake Tears/Snarl/Toxic/Moonlight, well, a lot of options really. Even Charm and Baby-Doll Eyes would be really annoying for a sweeper.
Unaware does not change Foul Play in any way, so yes, you can use a boosted Attack against them. Charm and Baby-Doll Eyes, however, will be ignored by Unaware, so they would be pointless (unless you're trying to hit Azumarill on the switch, which honestly sounds like a complete waste of a moveslot).

EDIT:
Speed Boost Mega Latios: This is just overkill. Speed Boost should never be an ability on something with such high stats as Mega Latios. It's broken on Blaziken, let alone Mega Blaziken. Scolipede is a perfect example of the ability not being broken. But this is simply unhealthy if you ask me. Now, maybe if you wanted to give him the boosting move Quiver Dance instead, I may be on board with that. But Mega Latios has all the moves and stats it needs to function really well, the problem is its base form. I'd say the ONLY thing Mega Latios needs is a type change to pure Dragon after megavolving. Imagine, no more Sucker Punch/Pursuit/U-Turn weakness. No more fear of speed ties with Gengar. If you want the Psychic and Fighting resistance, then use regular Latios. But pure Dragon is perfect for eliminating some key weaknesses, and is losing STAB Psychic moves really that terrible? Mega LAtios has more than enough coverage and boosting options.
I warned you to stay on topic when discussing Mega Latios. Your vote will not be counted.
 
Unaware Umbreon: Unaware is one of those go-to abilities that automatically makes any defensive pokemon better, along with Magic Guard or Magic Bounce. I don't know if this was answered already but does Unaware mean that Foul Play won't factor in any Attack boosts from an opponent in its damage calculation? Personally, I liked an earlier suggestion of making it Dark/Poison typing but I digress. Defensive Dark types have a niche for Psychic, Ghost and Dark attacks, and Umbreon can run some interesting sets with Unaware like Curse/Sucker Punch/Taunt/Moonlight or Fake Tears/Snarl/Toxic/Moonlight, well, a lot of options really. Even Charm and Baby-Doll Eyes would be really annoying for a sweeper.
Sucker Punch Pangoro: A much appreciated move as Sucker Punch is becoming of increasing value. Mold Breaker with Gunk Shot/Poison Jab makes it perfect for Clefable, but Scrappy and Sucker Punch/FIghting STAB allow it to decimate two of the S Rank Megas, Sableye and Metagross. One pokemon to shut down two of the leading megas? You'd be ludicrous to not run Pangoro at that point.
Mold Breaker Shuckle: Boring. I understand being able to lay Sticky Web and Stealth Rock through Magic Bounce is kinda cool, but this ability is useless against all the other playstyles where Sturdy would actually be of better use.
Speed Boost Mega Latios: This is just overkill. Speed Boost should never be an ability on something with such high stats as Mega Latios. It's broken on Blaziken, let alone Mega Blaziken. Scolipede is a perfect example of the ability not being broken. But this is simply unhealthy if you ask me. Now, maybe if you wanted to give him the boosting move Quiver Dance instead, I may be on board with that. But Mega Latios has all the moves and stats it needs to function really well, the problem is its base form. I'd say the ONLY thing Mega Latios needs is a type change to pure Dragon after megavolving. Imagine, no more Sucker Punch/Pursuit/U-Turn weakness. No more fear of speed ties with Gengar. If you want the Psychic and Fighting resistance, then use regular Latios. But pure Dragon is perfect for eliminating some key weaknesses, and is losing STAB Psychic moves really that terrible? Mega LAtios has more than enough coverage and boosting options.

Actually, Foul Play still works as usual, as seen by the calc at the least with a metagross getting a +1 and stuff

+1 0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 396-468 (131.5 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (with Unaware put on)

And yes, while that idea of poison/dark umbreon was fun back in the first thread, it still nice trying to at least give umbreon some new tools to abuse now a days.
 
Mold Breaker + Shuckle: I don't see the allure, it lets him kind of do things on two commonly used mons.

Pangoro+Sucker punch: eh, switch to a fairy on a predicted sucker punch and lol at it. It definitely would be nice but not my style.

Umbreon+Unaware: Probably my vote, a defensive dark type would be a great addition to the tier I think.

Mega Latios+Speed Boost: Wondering how this was slated, it's so broken. Come in on one of it's multiple resists, setup CM/SUB,shrek things. Sure it might miss some coverage but that's what a team is for.
 
Okay, Mega Latios is being deslated! It's clear people dislike this, so the council has decided to remove it. The new slot is NASTY PLOTY NOIVERN!
Credit for Nasty Plot Noivern goes to Recreant .

ANY DISCUSSION ON MEGA LATIOS IS BLACKLISTED. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED MULTIPLE TIMES AND I HAVE PUNISHED USERS ALREADY. DO NOT TEST THIS.
 
So a life orb set of

Nasty plot
Dragon pulse
Hurricane
Flamethrower/focus blast

Pidgeot got even more competition for a special flying type abuser.

Need to see calcs I'm on phone now so I'll need to see how this thing does as it has a nice speed tier.
 
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