When Perish Song is used, the slowest Pokemon dies last, meaning that a really slow Pokemon (like Azumarill) or a fast one under Trick Room (like Meloetta), with the support of a teammate, could easily win countless battles. It's like it is in 1v1, but significantly more powerful due to the existence of things like Follow Me / Rage Powder and teammates with Fake Out.
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2v2 Doubles
- Thread starter Anty
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Trick room is pretty much unviable in a 2v2 meta from what I tried (and you brought up meloetta which is p bad) and you have to waste a turn using perish song which is better off doing something else. Not to mention that perish song users aren't slow so it further deters from using it, since there are few ways to self drop speed and it's far too high a risk if your opp has a slow mon. Not to mention that since Anty failed to provide any explanation led me to wonder on why this is in effect.
I really think you're underestimating the effectiveness of the strategy. In some cases, living one hit, even zero in some situations is necessary to automatically win the battle. Also, with minimum speed Azumarill can underspeed almost everything relevant, as it has 50 base speed. You can always have a teammate drop your speed, too.
And as far as Meloetta is concerned, its Perish Song set is part of the reason it's now S Rank in 1v1. I wouldn't underestimate it based on its performance in DOU.
Yeah shame none of that applies to perish song since you have to last a full 4 turns for it to trigger. And 50 base speed is relatively fast in terms of tr speed so I don't get your point ._. and there are very few self dropping speed moves and they're all garbage bar like hammer arm/curse which are questionable in itself.
The fact that you mentioned singles viability for doubles is even more sketchy since something's usage in singles and doubles should have almost no correlation with their overall performance.
correct me if I'm wrong but you only need like, one super slow mon and the perish song user.
So basicly you could stick something like ferro, bronzong, chansey or something super bulky with minimun speed with your perish songer and then just make sure the slow bulky wall survives till perish counter goes down, which should actually be pretty easy to do with protect and stuff, like you could pair your super slow azu with something like iron ball prankster sableye that uses sub + protect to stall the other team out effortlessly while the partner distracts and distrupts them.
So basicly you could stick something like ferro, bronzong, chansey or something super bulky with minimun speed with your perish songer and then just make sure the slow bulky wall survives till perish counter goes down, which should actually be pretty easy to do with protect and stuff, like you could pair your super slow azu with something like iron ball prankster sableye that uses sub + protect to stall the other team out effortlessly while the partner distracts and distrupts them.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
I take it the OP just forgot to post Soul Dew on the banned items, as it's banned in DOU.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
The fact that it's banned by DOU probably means it's included in the standard clauses.
I take it the OP just forgot to post Soul Dew on the banned items, as it's banned in DOU.
dusk raimon
Banned deucer.
I really like specs melo in 1v1 and 2v2 #legit
As I'm unfamiliar with Double Battles (randbats hardly counts), what's the best source of information? Bulbapedia's article on it seems to be incomplete.
- If both your Pokémon have either the Plus or Minus ability, they get an extra 50% to SpA. Only Ampharos and Manectric appear to be viable.
- Lightningrod and Storm Drain will divert your team-mate's move if it's a single-target move. (So Surf will hit everyone as normal, although the Storm Drain user will get the SpA boost.)
- If you have a the Telepathy ability and your team-mate doesn't have the Mold Breaker or equivalent ability, then your team-mate cannot damage you, even with a move that normally affects the whole field.
- The abilities Friend Guard, Healer and Symbiosis also only apply in a Double (or Triple) Battle.
- The abilities Aroma Veil, Flower Gift, Flower Veil, Sweet Veil and Victory Star affect your whole team. Apart from the obvious Victini, I don't know whether any holders of these abilities are viable.
- Moves such as After You, Ally Switch, Aromatic Mist, Follow Me, Helping Hand, Hold Hands and Rage Powder only work in Double (or Triple) Battles.
- You can target Acupressure on yourself or your team-mate.
- After a successful hit, the move Flame Burst damages the Pokémon adjacent to the target for 1/16 of their maximum HP, unless they have the ability Magic Guard.
- Moves such as Outrage and Petal Dance target an opponent at random.
- Some moves, such as Crafty Shield, protect your whole team. However Reflect and Light Screen only reduce damage by one third.
Alright here's a gimmick that's a work in progress, but looks promising:
Gourgeist-Small (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trick-or-Treat
- Pain Split
- Disable
- Foul Play/Seed Bomb
Bisharp (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Defiant
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Psycho Cut
This idea came from the thought of lowering your own partner's SpA in order to gain Defiant boosts, but that sadly does't work, as Defiant only activates when a foe lowers a stat. However, Bisharp's nasty 4x weakness to fighting is negated by Gourgeist's dandy Trick-or-Treat, which adds Ghost to your types. Gourgeist has decent defense (and good speed), and is able to Pain Split away damage while disabling possibly troublesome moves for the team. Meanwhile Bisharp is wearing down the team with powerful STABs and Sucker Punch priority. Any Intimidate pokes are punished by Defiant, though you could also run Inner Focus to deal with Fake Out spam if you wish.
One thing about this meat I'm not at all enjoying is Follow Me. I think we should suspect it because of its uncompetitive nature and generally annoying vibe. I've seen Tail Glow Manaphy supported by a Follow Me poke that nearly 100% guarantees at least one free turn for set up on Mana, which then mows everything else down. It just isn't fun to fight against and already seems centralizing to me.
Gourgeist-Small (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trick-or-Treat
- Pain Split
- Disable
- Foul Play/Seed Bomb
Bisharp (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Defiant
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Psycho Cut
This idea came from the thought of lowering your own partner's SpA in order to gain Defiant boosts, but that sadly does't work, as Defiant only activates when a foe lowers a stat. However, Bisharp's nasty 4x weakness to fighting is negated by Gourgeist's dandy Trick-or-Treat, which adds Ghost to your types. Gourgeist has decent defense (and good speed), and is able to Pain Split away damage while disabling possibly troublesome moves for the team. Meanwhile Bisharp is wearing down the team with powerful STABs and Sucker Punch priority. Any Intimidate pokes are punished by Defiant, though you could also run Inner Focus to deal with Fake Out spam if you wish.
One thing about this meat I'm not at all enjoying is Follow Me. I think we should suspect it because of its uncompetitive nature and generally annoying vibe. I've seen Tail Glow Manaphy supported by a Follow Me poke that nearly 100% guarantees at least one free turn for set up on Mana, which then mows everything else down. It just isn't fun to fight against and already seems centralizing to me.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Agreeing with how retardedly broken follow me is, its literally one of the most uncompetitive pieces of garbage this metagame has to offer. It literally means you can't touch the other mon, so tail glow surf manaphy with a life orb gets free kills vs whatever. Belly drum mons with spread moves? Follow me means that both of your mons need to attack on the first turn of the belly drum mon, if it outspeeds, just gets 2 free kills.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Mat Block
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Hydro Cannon
WITH
Dragonite @ Focus Sash
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- ExtremeSpeed
- Earthquake
OR
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Outrage
And even...
Cloyster @ White Herb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Spike Cannon
And many more possible sweepers in 2v2!
This combo with Greninja is a good combo to use in 2v2 doubles. The main plan here is for Greninja to use Mat Block while sweepers set up on the first turn. After enough set up (also informing mat block only works first turn) the team goes through all out offense. Here are some examples http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-2v2doubles-698 and http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/2v2doubles-230192167
The damage they do would be massive due to Greninja's STAB, 150 Power Hydro Cannon, and Protean, and then Dragonite, Gyarados's, and Cloyster's stat boosts from 1.5x and 2x as they use their STAB moves or any other of the moves that are preferable to use.
Some may ask, "Why on Earth does Dragonite have Inner Focus instead of Multiscale?". The answer to that, is that there are so many Fake Out users. They would ruin Dragonite's set up and chance to attack, and Multiscale is pretty useless in doubles especially with so many fake out users.
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Ugh, thank you for the awareness. I changed it.
Rumplestiltskin
I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
I'm not convinced this is uncompetitive yet, since I haven't had the worst of the experiences when i encountered this strat, and there are ways to deal with it.
For the time being, here are a few ways to deal with it:
Fake out - It has higher priority, so you can use the 1st turn to possibly ruin the other poke's plan or possibly KO it with your other poke. This works if the other poke doesn't use protect.
Taunt - This wastes your 1st turn using taunt on the Follow me user, but in the following turns you won't be bothered by it.
Moves that hit multiple opponents - These moves aren't affected by Follow me or Rage powder
Using pokes that could possibly OHKO or 2HKO if it has sash - Since the most common users at the moment are Togekiss, Togetic, Clefairy, Clefable, and the bug type counterpart move user of Rage Powder, Amoonguss. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out some pokes or moves that deal with those pokes.
If other Follow me pokes turn up in the meta (there arent many more), the same strat can be used on them.
Also, all of the rage powder users are weak to Fire except Volcarona and all of them are weak to Rock except the Tangela evolutionary line, the Foongus evolutionary line, and Carnivine.
Your best bet right now seems to be using multi target moves, since Wide guard doesn't have much use at the moment. It doesn't have many viable users either, and even if you have it on a poke it's hard to predict when to use it unless you're sure that your opponent is gonna use a multi target attack.
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I'm gonna give my two bits on the Follow Me debacle.
The thing about strategies that revolve around follow me is taking a whole turn to set up is enough time to severly cripple the whole strategy.
By having two offensive pokemon target a follow me user or rage powder user on the same turn, the odds are that they will be KO'd on turn one, which means that it will take at least two turns to kill your team with a pokemon such as a dragon dancer or belly drum user, which can be even greater if one of your pokemon holds a focus sash.
As stated by Rumplestiltskin, fake out can destroy the strategy by outspeeding follow me or rage powder. If your counter-argument is putting protect on the follow me user, then that restricts their other useful moves to a number of two which is pretty devastating for overall matchups with a follow me user.
One thing that is worth stating is that if you are upset about follow me causing certain matchups to be put at a huge disadvantage, why are you playing a metagame as matchup reliant as 2v2 doubles in the first place? 1v1 is another metagame that is extremely reliant on wisely choosing a starting pokemon and will often result in surefire victories...and losses.
The bottom line about 2v2 doubles is that you cannot possibly expect to have a team that can have a good matchup against every conceivable threat in the metagame. Just as is the case in 1v1, it is impossible to be prepared to everything with a measly four pokemon at your disposal to choose from.
The thing about strategies that revolve around follow me is taking a whole turn to set up is enough time to severly cripple the whole strategy.
By having two offensive pokemon target a follow me user or rage powder user on the same turn, the odds are that they will be KO'd on turn one, which means that it will take at least two turns to kill your team with a pokemon such as a dragon dancer or belly drum user, which can be even greater if one of your pokemon holds a focus sash.
As stated by Rumplestiltskin, fake out can destroy the strategy by outspeeding follow me or rage powder. If your counter-argument is putting protect on the follow me user, then that restricts their other useful moves to a number of two which is pretty devastating for overall matchups with a follow me user.
One thing that is worth stating is that if you are upset about follow me causing certain matchups to be put at a huge disadvantage, why are you playing a metagame as matchup reliant as 2v2 doubles in the first place? 1v1 is another metagame that is extremely reliant on wisely choosing a starting pokemon and will often result in surefire victories...and losses.
The bottom line about 2v2 doubles is that you cannot possibly expect to have a team that can have a good matchup against every conceivable threat in the metagame. Just as is the case in 1v1, it is impossible to be prepared to everything with a measly four pokemon at your disposal to choose from.
my presence has been requested because apparently you all suck at double battling
ways to beat Follow Me:
- Fake Out (will be less effective when people start running Protect more)
- Taunt (stopped once by Mental Herb)
- Disable (stopped once by Mental Herb)
- spread moves (stopped by Wide Guard, but Wide Guard + Follow Me in the same turn does nothing)
- kill the Follow Me user turn 1 and, hopefully, have two mons left over
- Extreme Speed (poor distribution)
- proper Protects - setup sweepers with access to spread attacks are few and far between, so you can literally outplay the non-spread ones with Protect
- Spore those motherfuckers
extra ways to beat Rage Powder:
- Grass-types
- Safety Goggles
- Overcoat
extra ways to beat a setup mon Follow Me is paired with once the Follow Me user is out of commission:
- Unaware Clefable with Follow Me - with proper investment can take on even Mega Kangaskhan and lol Azumarill gets fucked
- Foul Play
- just outspeed the damn thing
Ally Switch is mostly beaten by the same things, but has +1 priority (meaning that usually Talonflame can Brave Bird first) and is occasionally used by the more threatening Pokemon (such as Gardevoir).
ways to beat Follow Me:
- Fake Out (will be less effective when people start running Protect more)
- Taunt (stopped once by Mental Herb)
- Disable (stopped once by Mental Herb)
- spread moves (stopped by Wide Guard, but Wide Guard + Follow Me in the same turn does nothing)
- kill the Follow Me user turn 1 and, hopefully, have two mons left over
- Extreme Speed (poor distribution)
- proper Protects - setup sweepers with access to spread attacks are few and far between, so you can literally outplay the non-spread ones with Protect
- Spore those motherfuckers
extra ways to beat Rage Powder:
- Grass-types
- Safety Goggles
- Overcoat
extra ways to beat a setup mon Follow Me is paired with once the Follow Me user is out of commission:
- Unaware Clefable with Follow Me - with proper investment can take on even Mega Kangaskhan and lol Azumarill gets fucked
- Foul Play
- just outspeed the damn thing
Ally Switch is mostly beaten by the same things, but has +1 priority (meaning that usually Talonflame can Brave Bird first) and is occasionally used by the more threatening Pokemon (such as Gardevoir).
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Ok, this combo was on the threat list, but I haven't seen anyone actually posting sets for it. This set has kept me in the top 30 consistently and even taken me up to #10 on the ladder. I am currently #16.
WhyAmILegal? (Kangaskhan) (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Return
- Drain Punch
SlitUrRistz (Jumpluff) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Rage Powder
- Aromatherapy
- Encore
Fake-Out and Fast Sleep. The objective is essentially "stop your opponent doing jack shit". People may think this is fairly weak to opposing fake-outs and made neutral to protect, but you can encore the opponent into fake-out or protect to stop them doing anything. I paired it with a straightforward Mega TTar + Excadrill combo, so overall, I'm rather weak to Intimidate. However, I have still beaten intimidate teams with both pairings.
Wide Lens is for sleep powder, but when you bear in mind that Sleep Powder initially has less accuracy than Stone Edge, you realise what a godsend it is. Before I slapped it on, I was losing due to double misses of sleep powder frequently and now I'mm hitting SP so much you'd think it's more accurate than Fire Fang (not gonna say AS accurate as I have missed six Fire Fangs in a row before). Rage Powder is obviously to keep attention off of Kangaskhan while he heals up with drain punch, but bear in mind that Kang's only weakness is fighting and Jumpluff resists, taking less than 45% from an Adamant Mega Kang's Hammer Arms as Kang gets from 2% HP to 30% with Drain Punches for the KO. Aromatherapy is to stop Burns on Kang or Toxic/Paralysis on either. Standard Cleric.
Meowstic (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Quick Guard
- Thunder Wave
- Safeguard
Another support you could try is Meowstic if you're fearing the Talonflame. It's specially invested to JUST outspeed Jolly Kang's Fake Out, so if you do use this, I'd reccomend using Adamant Bulky Kang (also coz paralysis).
WhyAmILegal? (Kangaskhan) (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Return
- Drain Punch
SlitUrRistz (Jumpluff) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Rage Powder
- Aromatherapy
- Encore
Fake-Out and Fast Sleep. The objective is essentially "stop your opponent doing jack shit". People may think this is fairly weak to opposing fake-outs and made neutral to protect, but you can encore the opponent into fake-out or protect to stop them doing anything. I paired it with a straightforward Mega TTar + Excadrill combo, so overall, I'm rather weak to Intimidate. However, I have still beaten intimidate teams with both pairings.
Wide Lens is for sleep powder, but when you bear in mind that Sleep Powder initially has less accuracy than Stone Edge, you realise what a godsend it is. Before I slapped it on, I was losing due to double misses of sleep powder frequently and now I'mm hitting SP so much you'd think it's more accurate than Fire Fang (not gonna say AS accurate as I have missed six Fire Fangs in a row before). Rage Powder is obviously to keep attention off of Kangaskhan while he heals up with drain punch, but bear in mind that Kang's only weakness is fighting and Jumpluff resists, taking less than 45% from an Adamant Mega Kang's Hammer Arms as Kang gets from 2% HP to 30% with Drain Punches for the KO. Aromatherapy is to stop Burns on Kang or Toxic/Paralysis on either. Standard Cleric.
Meowstic (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Quick Guard
- Thunder Wave
- Safeguard
Another support you could try is Meowstic if you're fearing the Talonflame. It's specially invested to JUST outspeed Jolly Kang's Fake Out, so if you do use this, I'd reccomend using Adamant Bulky Kang (also coz paralysis).
A fun little combo to do in doubles, nothing super amazing, but fun none the less.
Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 244 HP / 28 Atk / 4 Def / 232 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Skill Swap
- Sucker Punch
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp
Azumarill @ Light Clay
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 180 Def / 56 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature/Bold
- Play Rough/Scald
- Substitute
- Encore
- Light Screen
You know what is scary? 410 attack with huge power, do you what makes it funnier? Priority Skill swap making whoever gets the ability prankster instead. So instead of losing out on a good ability like using it on Slaking, you get two Pokemon with good abilities. Banette has extremely high power, Azumarill becomes a bulky support(I kept the play rough in case it didn't switch the abilities, but scald is for those who want pure support.) Skill swap mega banette for fun times all around. As I said before, it is nothing amazing. But why not try something a little bit crazy every now and then?
Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 244 HP / 28 Atk / 4 Def / 232 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Skill Swap
- Sucker Punch
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp
Azumarill @ Light Clay
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 180 Def / 56 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature/Bold
- Play Rough/Scald
- Substitute
- Encore
- Light Screen
You know what is scary? 410 attack with huge power, do you what makes it funnier? Priority Skill swap making whoever gets the ability prankster instead. So instead of losing out on a good ability like using it on Slaking, you get two Pokemon with good abilities. Banette has extremely high power, Azumarill becomes a bulky support(I kept the play rough in case it didn't switch the abilities, but scald is for those who want pure support.) Skill swap mega banette for fun times all around. As I said before, it is nothing amazing. But why not try something a little bit crazy every now and then?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/2v2doubles-230350270
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/2v2doubles-230356056
I like that strat, will add more.
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I've had a couple battles where my opponent is using 2 sashed pokeomn at the same time, are we allowed to do this?
Also, I've been using rain dance keldeo to decent success. it gets a faster quick guard than khan / lopunny's fake out and kinda screws the charY + venusaur combo (kinda)
Also, I've been using rain dance keldeo to decent success. it gets a faster quick guard than khan / lopunny's fake out and kinda screws the charY + venusaur combo (kinda)
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