DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[alex]

As I'm sure most of you have noticed, we have a BL tier up in the D/P Tier Intro./List thread.

The BL and UU tiers are now open to discussion, which is to say, whether something should be banned from (BL) or allowed in the UU tier. Of course, there are some guidelines that you all would do well to follow:

• ALL DISCUSSION WILL TAKE PLACE IN THIS THREAD UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. DO NOT CREATE NEW THREADS FOR THE PURPOSE OF TIER DISCUSSION.
• Please read the D/P Tier Intro./List before you begin discussion here.
• You must adhere to the stipulation that we are only discussing BL->UU and vice-versa for now; this is not the time nor place to complain that Blissey (or any other Pokémon) is uber, that Manaphy is not uber, or that because you think you maybe saw eight Scizors yesterday Scizor should now be OU.
• You MUST provide solid reasoning backed by competitive battling experience for your opinion on a given Pokémon. Making a statement like "mamoswine should be UU" alone without backing it up is NOT ALLOWED. If you opt not to justify your assertions, your post(s) WILL be deleted and swiftly infracted without warning.
• Remember that the distinction between UU and BL is based on power alone. Usage is not a factor and therefore should not even be mentioned in an argument for why a Pokémon should be placed in the UU or BL tier.
• Discussion, as always, will be carried out in a civil manner. If you feel the need to insult your opposition in a debate, then this is not the forum for you.

For a few examples of Pokémon I personally think might be worthy of discussion at this stage in D/P to start with (or not, if you're interested in something else):

- Mamoswine
- Scyther
- Ambipom
- ?

Go for it.

 

[Kumar]

Ambipom is definitely BL as it is way too strong for UU. Good stats coupled with technician would be overly powerful in the not-so-defensive UU tier, as well as the ability to nasty plot pass would make this monkey BL.

 

[obi]

The only BL on that list that I feel ought to be UU is Shedinja. I have no idea how good Floatzel is (I bet it sucks, especially with a CB, though), so I'll have to hold off judgment on that.

Shedinja no longer has access to Hidden Power. Its physical movepool now consists of X-Scissor, Shadow Claw, Shadow Sneak, Aerial Ace, Return, and uh Natural Gift I guess. It's slow enough so that it can't really abuse Swords Dance (because if they have a counter, they're switching to it, and it's almost always faster and not OHKOed by Shadow Sneak). It can't Baton Pass Agilities (illegal combo), and if it uses Agility, it will still only get in one hit on its counter, just like if it attacked on the switch.

Stealth Rock is still easy to get on Pokemon in UU, as well as a bunch having Spikes and even Toxic Spikes, which instantly spell Shedinja's end.

 

[General Tso]

I use a CB Floatzel to good success being able to pound some pokemon like modest Starmies when they're not suspecting that I use Jolly.

I think Jynx should belong in UU. It only seems good in the hail to me and otherwise it would be rather useless seeing as Ice/Psychic doesn't provide the best of resistances and it has rather poor physical defenses.

 

[Ryo]

What should be BL is Azumarril. Pure Power gives it 436 Attack (stat). It has STAB Aqua Jet, Waterfall, 101 Subs, and Focus Punch. It may be slow, but it can use Choice Band effectively, and decent HP lets it take a hit. Too broken in UU since about the only reliable counter is Quagsire.

 

[Calciphoce]

Mamoswine is too strong for UU, and is fairly bulky. He also gets leftovers recovery regardless of the whether, which is a nice addition when the yeti is around (snow cloak also helps). It has a pretty damn strong STAB EQ, along with a priority attack in ice shard for them lower level dragons (hi altaria). With the same attacking power as Garchomp, Breloom, and Machamp, this is simply too powerful for the likes of UU IMO.

 

[obi]

In UU, there is also no Tyranitar or Hippowdon, meaning Jynx has leftovers, and Rocks no longer have +Special Defense.

Ice Beam, Calm Mind, Lovely Kiss, Substitute

Pretty much the only UU I can think of that stops that set is uh... physical Walrein, and maybe Encore Walrein. Roar Walrein can do a decent job, too. Notice a trend here? The only counter is Walrein. Oh, maybe Blastoise with similar restrictions (except it doesn't have access to Encore, and only 2x Ice resistance instead of 8x). But maybe you try and absorb a Sleep with <Pokemon> and then go to said physical / phazing bulky Water. You may just have lost the game with Ice Beam, Calm Mind, Lovely Kiss, Mean Look. Jynx certainly has enough Speed to sweep, although I guess without Substitute, it's at risk for a Choice Scarf Pokemon coming in and forcing it out, so long as it's carrying a physical move.

At least OU has stuff like Snorlax, Tyranitar, Blissey, Dusknoir, Jirachi, Metagross, etc. There are few Ice resists in UU, fewer that can do anything to a Jynx after a few Calm Minds when it's behind a Substitute, and fewer still that have much of a purpose outside of stopping Jynx.

Calciphoce, Abomasnow is BL, meaning it's not allowed in UU, so in other words, all auto-weather Pokemon are BL or higher, so weather is only a factor with Pokemon that use the moves. I foresee Hail getting as much use as Sandstorm: none. The only weather users are stuff abusing Rain Dance and Sunny Day, which, ironically, open up Mamoswine to getting hit even harder on its weaknesses. Not saying it shouldn't be BL, just saying that particular thought is irrelevant.

 

[glassbutterfly]

I'm not exactly sure, but I think Cradily is a viable option for BL play - even if she does not get sandstorm support from her team. Hypno or Grumpig both do not get a recovery move, which puts them under UU. Ninetales, Toxicroak and Persian are probably the bulkies nasty plotters in UU. Ninetales and Toxicroak are weak to ground, while Persian has sort of a shallow movepool as well as Cradily resisting Swift (Persian's strongest technician attack).

 

[iruchii]

I think Froslass should be BL. Not only because it is used quite a lot, but also because it is awesome. Focus Sash Froslass leads really shit a lot of stuff with that ulta-fast Destiny Bond.

edit;
This part involved the OU tier. Editted out.

 

[obi]

Hypno or Grumpig both do not get a recovery move, which puts them under UU.

Hypno learns Wish.

 

[General Tso]

In UU, there is also no Tyranitar or Hippowdon, meaning Jynx has leftovers, and Rocks no longer have +Special Defense.

Ice Beam, Calm Mind, Lovely Kiss, Substitute

Pretty much the only UU I can think of that stops that set is uh... physical Walrein, and maybe Encore Walrein. Roar Walrein can do a decent job, too. Notice a trend here? The only counter is Walrein. Oh, maybe Blastoise with similar restrictions (except it doesn't have access to Encore, and only 2x Ice resistance instead of 8x). But maybe you try and absorb a Sleep with <Pokemon> and then go to said physical / phazing bulky Water. You may just have lost the game with Ice Beam, Calm Mind, Lovely Kiss, Mean Look. Jynx certainly has enough Speed to sweep, although I guess without Substitute, it's at risk for a Choice Scarf Pokemon coming in and forcing it out, so long as it's carrying a physical move.

At least OU has stuff like Snorlax, Tyranitar, Blissey, Dusknoir, Jirachi, Metagross, etc. There are few Ice resists in UU, fewer that can do anything to a Jynx after a few Calm Minds when it's behind a Substitute, and fewer still that have much of a purpose outside of stopping Jynx.

Calciphoce, Abomasnow is BL, meaning it's not allowed in UU, so in other words, all auto-weather Pokemon are BL or higher, so weather is only a factor with Pokemon that use the moves. I foresee Hail getting as much use as Sandstorm: none. The only weather users are stuff abusing Rain Dance and Sunny Day, which, ironically, open up Mamoswine to getting hit even harder on its weaknesses. Not saying it shouldn't be BL, just saying that particular thought is irrelevant.

I see your point, looks like I've been proven wrong!

 

[alex]

Also, I think I have seen a lot more Ninjasks and Scizors nowadays, but can we discuss what should be moved from the BL to OU?

You must adhere to the stipulation that we are only discussing BL->UU and vice-versa for now

One and only warning I will give in this thread.

 

[Calciphoce]

Calciphoce, Abomasnow is BL, meaning it's not allowed in UU, so in other words, all auto-weather Pokemon are BL or higher, so weather is only a factor with Pokemon that use the moves. I foresee Hail getting as much use as Sandstorm: none. The only weather users are stuff abusing Rain Dance and Sunny Day, which, ironically, open up Mamoswine to getting hit even harder on its weaknesses. Not saying it shouldn't be BL, just saying that particular thought is irrelevant.

True, but if the pig goes up to BL, they could actually cause some damage either in wearing the opponent down or simply shredding them with STAB EQs. You are correct, hail isn't common, but, when it's the only weather available that doesn't go away after 5 or 8 turns, and can negate the leftovers recovery of the BL walls, it might actually be useful in that environment. There is no guarantee though, even though I ran a somewhat successful hail/ice team on shoddy in the OU environment, and it did pretty well. However, this is just my experience. Others may find hail to be completely useless.

 

[Fishin]

I have no idea how good Floatzel is (I bet it sucks, especially with a CB, though), so I'll have to hold off judgment on that.

Floatzel is very solidly BL as far as I can see. It's faster than basically all UU pokemon, and has a solid attacking movepool. Quagsire would be one of the few real counters, as it gets Ice Fang to deal with Meganium and other grass types, and of course ground/rock types are beaten by waterfall (Brick Break handles any steels). In addition to that, it would probably be one of the best passers thanks to it's excellent speed and taunt. I've used the BP set in OU with very good results.

I also believe that Azumarill is a definite BL. It's got a massive amount of power for UU and would almost have to be countered by water absorb (Quagsire).

 

[Bologo]

I agree with Azumarill being BL. That thing is way too powerful for UU with Aqua Jet and 436 attack in its arsenal. Even Quagsire isn't the best counter out there, because, although it can absorb aqua jet, it'll get destroyed by Return or Focus Punch because Quagsire is really slow. Azumarill is unfortunately way too hard to counter easily in UU, when it can even have a Choice Band on its huge attack.

Regigigas needs to be shoved into UU...that thing can be countered very easily in UU because there's no way it can actually hold off the 5 turns for the Slow Start without a recovery move. Yeah, so no recovery move means that its nice defenses are wasted, especially with no resistances. A lot of fighting pokemon in UU can take it out easily. Especially a fighter like Hitmonlee who can switch in on Thunder Wave and rip it in half. Although most of the fighting pokemon are slow, Regigigas is pretty much just as slow as a Torkoal when Slow Start takes effect...plus no Rest or Protect to get rid of status effects means that this guy can get destroyed in UU...so he definitely should not be BL.

That's what I've got to say for now.

 

[Calciphoce]

Floatzel is very solidly BL as far as I can see. It's faster than basically all UU pokemon, and has a solid attacking movepool. Quagsire would be one of the few real counters. In addition to that, it would probably be one of the best passers thanks to it's excellent speed and taunt. I've used the BP set in OU with very good results.

I also believe that Azumarill is a definite BL. It's got a massive amount of power for UU and would almost have to be countered by water absorb (Quagsire).

To add on, Floatzel also learns bulk up, which can make for some serious tanking. His blinding speed doesn't hurt it either, getting BPs will be an easy task. I agree with the Azumarill comment as well.

 

[Ryo]

Linoone should be BL also, it has Belly Drum, and salac berry activates at 50% so all it needs is 1 turn. It has shadow claw for ghosts and exteme speed. a CB Suckerpunch is probably the only thing that can KO it.

 

[marrilpet]

Ambipom - I think Ambipom should stay BL. Look at his stats: 115 Speed, 100 Attack. With +nature and 252 EVs, you get a final stat of 361 at level 100. This outspeeds a boatload of crap, including major OU threats such as Garchomp and Gengar. In UU, he'd be way too fast to be easily countered.

Additionally, this 100 Attack with Technician makes for a deadly combination. He also has the movepool for it: Double Hit, Astonish, Aerial Ace, Payback... the list goes on.

 

[Calciphoce]

Linoone should be BL also, it has Belly Drum, and salac berry activates at 50% so all it needs is 1 turn. It has shadow claw for ghosts and exteme speed. a CB Suckerpunch is probably the only thing that can KO it.

In that case, Cacturn says hi.

Anyway, the main way to get a belly(insert half of poke name here) up is to switch in to something that the drummer has a type advantage on. This usually leads to a sub, then a belly drum. But, how many things go "OH SHIT, IT'S A LINOONE"? The reason Charizard works so well as a bellydrummer is that when he switches in on a grass type, they shit their pants and switch. What does linoone scare away, honestly? I can't think of anything. Plus, the little er...thing, is fragile, so most any hit would kill it, especially after a belly drum.

 

[Stefywefy215]

Linoone should be BL also, it has Belly Drum, and salac berry activates at 50% so all it needs is 1 turn. It has shadow claw for ghosts and exteme speed. a CB Suckerpunch is probably the only thing that can KO it.

sucker punch doesnt affect linoone and linoone stil has trouble getting past aggron and other pokemon with high defense, it gets rock smash but that doesnt help as much. I also agree with ambipom being BL because it is jsut way too strong for UU, aggron jsut stops alot of these pokemon though, especially those withouit fighting moves or earthquake. I think cloyster should go back down to uu because its stealth rock weak and has just ok special defense. ice typings not to great for a wall...As for mamoswine, its fine in BL because its very strong....(sorry need to think of a better reason..)

 

[Gmax]

Azumarill has got to be at least BL. 654 Attack+STAB Priority Move = One of the best Lategame cleaners. I once OHKOd a Zam with it.

 

[Colonel M]

But of course, if we consider Speed, that also makes Persian a viable option for BL, and it's not going to be countering the likes of Garchomp and such, at least for now. It does have the moot point of Technician and even Hypnosis (Hypnosis sets it apart from Ambipom, suprise suprise) and even Technician Bite can hit decently. The Nasty Plot set, IMO, has better coverage from Persian since it can learn even Power Gem for "Special" Rock-coverage. However Persian should be UU just because his Attack stats are meh-ish at best.

As far as Mamoswine goes, 130 Attack is a boatload of attack. With STAB Ice Shard / Ice Fang, STAB Earthquake, Stone Edge for a filler, and able to wield Choice Band like a pro, it would be pretty hard to counter him (Aggron gets destroyed by EQ, Gligar (If considered) by Ice Shard / Fang, etc.). Defenitely BL.

Scyther is tricky, however, I want to say he could be a considerable UU, since Stealth Rock limits his switch-ins. However, having 105 Base Speed and 110 Base Attack is quite frightening, especially after you consider he can learn Agility / Swords Dance, pass them, or even make use of half-crap Attacks like Quick Attack. And Aggron can still counter him if Stealth Rock is in play, since Aggron is x4 Resistant to Quick Attack and x2 Resistant to Bug and Dark. Aggron would have to worry about Brick Break, however, but Brick Break is usually uncommon on the Baton Pass set. Another thing of note is Gligar can take most moves, except maybe SD'ing Quick Attacks, and KO it back with A-Ace. And Scyther has barely a good recovery move since he would loose Flying coverage. However, since no one is notably fast in UU to seriously "counter" Scyther as of yet, I want to say throw Scyther into BL for the time being.

 

[Calciphoce]

Azumarill has got to be at least BL. 654 Attack+STAB Priority Move = One of the best Lategame cleaners. I once OHKOd a Zam with it.

What? OHKOing a zam can be done by just about anything that hits for neutral. I agree that it should be BL, but Zam is a glass canon.

@Flash_Gearz: This thread is for discussing BL/UU, remove the OU section.

 

[Gmax]

Well, how often do you OHKO it with a 60 BP attack?

 

[Calciphoce]

Well, how often do you OHKO it with a 60 BP attack?

When the target has a base of 45 defense and a base HP of 55, that's when.