BH Balanced Hackmons

Merciless Assault Vest/Safety Goggles Fusion Bolt Zekrom. For when you absolutely, positively want to kill that PH Kyogre dead right now.

+3 252 SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Zekrom: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Teravolt Zekrom Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre on a critical hit: 422-498 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Fusion Bolt over Bolt Strike for accuracy since you lose if you miss unless Kyo-P isn't boosted. Tricky part is picking AV or Safety Goggles since one lets you deal with a few Q.Dances and one lets you evade the Spore. You can then run moves like Low Kick for PH Gigas and Dragon Hammer for PH Giratina.

Also worth noting is the forgotten Mega-Venusaur checks Pogre nicely. It resists Water/Fairy sets and is immune to both Spore and Leech Seed. Additionally, it can do the old Black Sludge trick to cripple Pogre while getting a Toxic Orb to toss at another Pokemon later without fearing a Toxic status. Run Prankster with Topsy and all you have to do is not switch into an Ice Beam. And if they are running Ice Beam over Moonblast, then the Pogre will likely lose to Pogres that are running Moonblast. Or it could run three attacks, but a big reason of why Pogre is a pain is Spore/Leech Seed give it lots of chances to set-up while making it all but fully imposter proof, especially if not running Water Spout since that risks losing a speed tie and getting crit OHKOed after a few Q.Dances, so it actually loses a bit of threat doing that.


Funny enough though, this is actually the first time we've have P.Ogre without EV limit.
I like the idea of M-Venu. But normal ice coverage P-Ogre can beat it and not lose to P-ogre (freeze dry).

I think the best set for using M-Venu is unaware:

Venusaur-Mega @ Black Sludge
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
- Thousand Waves
- Giga Drain / Leech seed
- Entrainment
- Shore Up

252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 124-148 (34 - 40.6%) -- 53.2% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

It's not a perfect check... But I can see it working in some circumstances.
 
I honestly believe that the lifting of the EV limit has buffed Primal Kyogre significantly more than the banishment of Water Bubble has nerfed it, and that it is currently the best Pokémon in this metagame. To understand why, simply read this post, except replace "Dark Void" with "Spore" and "Kyogre" with "Primal Kyogre." Also, watch these three replays as well.
In all 3 replays the Giratina has no Core Enforcer or Dragon Tail.
Chansey could have run Lucky Punch. You replay a P-Kyogre with Glare haha.


The irony is that since both Greninja-A and Palkia are nerfed into unviable status
P-Kyogre has to do their jobs aswell.

As a result you guys can list explict P-Kyogre counters.
 
In all 3 replays the Giratina has no Core Enforcer or Dragon Tail.
Chansey could have run Lucky Punch. You replay a P-Kyogre with Glare haha.


The irony is that since both Greninja-A and Palkia are nerfed into unviable status
P-Kyogre has to do their jobs aswell.

As a result you guys can list explict P-Kyogre counters.
Stakeout/Tinted Lens Groudon (Tinted is generally better): 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 476-562 (117.8 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

[...]Tricky part is picking AV or Safety Goggles since one lets you deal with a few Q.Dances and one lets you evade the Spore.[...]
Electric Surge Zekrom (immune to Spore, can use an Assault Vest) 252+ Atk Zekrom Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal in Electric Terrain: 464-548 (114.8 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Adamant is used here, but not required)

Sheer Force Mewtwo Mega Y is a close one: 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mewtwo-Mega-Y Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 372-439 (92 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (pair with Stealth Rock)

Specs Stakeout Mewtwo Mega Y: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 562-663 (139.1 - 164.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (This MMY can score a guaranteed 2HKO even on a Fur Coat variant, if Pogre doesn't carry Leftovers (they make the guaranteed become a possible, use Stealth Rock and kill it.)) A crit kills any Pogre no matter what.

PH Regigigas can survive 2 Scald, set up 2 Shift Gear in the while, and OHKO with Facade (can't be outspeeded by Pogre): +2 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 451-532 (111.6 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Skill Link Kartana: 252 Atk Kartana Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 420-490 (103.9 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Any Adamant Kartana with Power Whip: 252+ Atk Kartana Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 428-506 (105.9 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

PH Kyogre that doesn't run maximum Speed with Core Enforcer.

I can't think of anything else right now.
 
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Heres a set you can use if you hate PHogre so much that youll be willing to run this set



Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Recover
- Filler
- Filler
- Filler

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 111-132 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 90-106 (25.5 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Its grass typing lets ferro resist PHogre's primary STAB while simultaneously being immune to both Spore and Leech seed.
On the other hand, its steel typing renders Ice beam neutral while resisting Moonblast.

You can slap on Core enforcer, Spectral thief, Knock off, Leech seed, Anchor shot, Perish song, Topsy turvy, Heart swap, or whatever you want.

Bonus calcs:

252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 96-113 (27.2 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Regigigas Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 83-98 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- 86.7% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 125-147 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Diancie-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 100-118 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I am opening sample team submissions for teams pre max ev. If you have teams for the Ev limit meta even with water bubble, submit here and I can look it over and add it if we all feel it's good.

Please include proof of your teams' effectiveness with replays and ladder rank performance.

Also include what bans were in effect at the time the team was made or in use
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
This Link has my team data. It has my high ladder (good old times) screenshot and explanation and everything.

But I will make an importable anyway:

Sorry for Undertale Theme nicknames:
DumbAss Real Dreamer (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Draco Meteor
- Secret Sword
- Moongeist Beam

Ass Gore Violence (Groudon-Primal) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
Evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Bonemerang
- V-Create
- Switcheroo

SWERVE Ending (Kyogre-Primal) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Scald
- Spectral Thief
- Moongeist Beam
- Volt Switch

Anti Homo Undyne (Buzzwole) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Atk / 236 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Strength Sap
- Defog
- Leech Seed
- U-turn

Toriel's Cream Pie (Audino-Mega) (F) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spectral Thief
- Rapid Spin
- Shore Up
- U-turn

Chara (Giratina) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Shore Up
- Spikes
- Metal Burst


Replay against the top player that I highly respect for not carrying Sash Smash spams and APS:
Replay vs ShedMiddleFinga

* Pdon had Skill Link instead of Adaptability.
* Crit on Pdon... ShedMiddleFinga later told me that his Pdon was regenvest so sorry about crit. But I don't think that would change the outcome of the match anyway.
 
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http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-zygarde-offense.3591674/
This is the team I laddered for all the suspect tests since cfz.
It's my only original team so almost all replays under @akalakahunamallow and Kadabrium should be with this
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-541840311
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-499485828
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-528209402
the final version the day right before ev ban was iirc like
Leftover Legendary (Zygarde-Complete) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Def / 198 SpA / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Core Enforcer
- Magma Storm
- Substitute
- Quiver Dance

Psystricken (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Light of Ruin
- Parting Shot
- Psycho Boost

Kyogreninjaskyogre (Greninja-Ash) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 SpD
- Steam Eruption
- Beat Up
- Ice Beam
- Shell Smash

PlumpJuicyGrub (Blissey) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Spore
- Stealth Rock
- Magic Coat
- Defog

SinisterArrowRaid (Groudon-Primal) @ Choice Band
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Sacred Fire
- Bonemerang
- Ice Hammer

EpicHarambeSweep (Slaking) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Baton Pass
- Spectral Thief
- Destiny Bond
- Spore
 
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Would a previous gen RMT be enough proof? I have a team that still works this Gen before and after EV limit removal, but I didn't save any replays or ladder with it exclusively pre-removal, which is slightly impossible to fix now.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
Here's my RMT from the Water Bubble suspect. WB ban shouldn't affect it much but EV limit thing is pretty big because it means that Kyurem-B can't OHKO all the offensive mons anymore; Xurkitree can now live hits and retaliate, though.

Xurkitree @ Choice Specs
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 248 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Earth Power
- Sunsteel Strike
- Ice Beam

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Skill Link
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Bone Rush
- Bolt Strike
- Knock Off

Registeel @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Defog
- Dragon Tail
- Heal Order

FREE FROM BLACKLIST (Golisopod) @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- U-turn
- Liquidation

Drifblim @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA
Mild Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
- U-turn
- Metal Burst
- Moongeist Beam
- Recover

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 248 Spe
Impish Nature
- Fake Out
- Final Gambit
- Recover
- Roar
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Its your resident BH player, and as I promised E4 Flint, I am gonna do my megapost now consisting of sample teams of the EV Limit BH meta and also will share my thoughts on the current metagame at hand.

Music to Enjoy while reading:


Lets Dive right into this shall we ;)

======================================
Unwanted Enemies

Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Shell Smash
- Spore

Zekrom @ Draco Plate
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 200 Atk / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Mild Nature
- Judgment
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Shell Smash

Groudon-Primal @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Copycat
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- V-create

Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 4 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Shore Up
- Spikes
- Whirlwind

Dialga @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Core Enforcer
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin
- Nuzzle

Registeel @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Haze
- Shore Up
- Encore
- U-turn


A team I worked on with my good friend Electrolyte, this team is built around abusing a powerful and underrated wallbreaker in Zekrom. After defensive checks such as Mega Audino, Solgaleo, and Dialga have been weakened down/KOed by Mega Gengar and Primal Groudon, Zekrom is usually able to sweep soon after due to its STAB combination being resisted by a select few. This team does struggle against APS users such as Mega Mewtwo Y and Deoxys-A (especially if they carry Fighting Coverage) due to Zekrom not being able to revenge kill them with STAB Extreme Speed. This team had brought me and Electro great success during the early days of the gen 7 meta thanks to Scarf Water Bubble Primal Kyogre being a ubiquitous threat at the time. However, the team struggles down the line when new threats such as Stakeout Primal Groudon and Innards Out Chansey started to come to popularity. Still successful team that used an underrated threat nonetheless.

Decisive Partners

Groudon-Primal @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Bonemerang
- Frost Breath
- V-Create
- U-turn

Rayquaza-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Aerilate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Blue Flare
- Moongeist Beam
- Volt Switch

Gengar-Mega @ Fist Plate
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Revelation Dance
- Judgment
- Shell Smash
- Entrainment

Audino-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD
Careful Nature
- Whirlwind
- Baton Pass
- Milk Drink
- Spectral Thief

Kyogre-Primal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam

Tyranitar-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Shore Up


So after OM disciple LaxLapras had granted the OM Underrated thread with this amazing Primal Groudon set, I knew I had to build a team around it. The team overall came out to be a bit generic, although the sets used were a bit unorthodox at the time. Technician Primal Groudon was and still is an amazing threat as it is great at breaking sashes from common users such as Mega Mewtwo Y, Ash-Greninja and Deoxys-A, preventing setup. It also was great at breaking down its conventional checks in Zygarde-C and Mega Swampert quite well. Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza was also a dark horse threat that did not have as much use before as it does now, dismantling many defensive teams not pertaining a Soundproof user honestly. Revelation Dance Entrainment Mega Gengar was also another threat that I had wanted to try out, allowing Mega Gengar to Improof itself with Magic Bounce Mega Tyranitar. Solid Team that won me many roomtours.

Heavenly Ascent

Pidgeot-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Boomburst
- Moongeist Beam
- Tail Glow

Tyranitar-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- U-turn
- Shore Up

Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- V-create
- Thousand Arrows
- Ice Beam
- U-turn

Giratina @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Milk Drink
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Superpower
- Leaf Storm
- V-create
- Taunt

Audino-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Defog
- Parting Shot
- Milk Drink


Traige Mega Pidgeot is actually one of the most dangerous threats if used properly, which is why I decided to build around it during the Water Bubble meta. After a Tail Glow, it is able to solidly OHKO most offensive mons with Oblivion Wing and can also 2HKO most specially defensive Unawares like Zygarde-C and Mega Audino with Life Orb Boomburst and does not care about Spectral Thief as well (it is also most fastest STAB Triage user). However it does get annoyed by APS which is why I paired it up with Sand Stream Pursuit Mega Tyranitar to break Psychic Sash mons like MMY and Deo-A. Ice Beam Choice Band Stakeout Primal Groudon was also another huge threat I wanted to try out as it can OHKO Zygarde-C on the switchin and 2HKo Giratina as well (2 of the most common Stakeout Switchins), because besides that nothing can avoid the 2HKO from this monster when coming in on its STABs. Taunt Contrary Mega Mewtwo X is another great mon at breaking down defensive teams as it can prevent healing and moves such as non-Prankster Haze. Really fun team that abuses the most underrated threat in Mega Pidgeot.

Toxic Parasites

Giratina @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Shore Up

Gengar-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: Merciless
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Venoshock
- Shell Smash
- Baneful Bunker

Gyarados-Mega @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 248 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Crabhammer
- U-turn

Xerneas @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Defog
- U-turn
- Milk Drink

Arceus-Ghost @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Boomburst
- Moongeist Beam
- Recover

Shedinja @ Protective Pads
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endeavor
- Extreme Speed
- Seismic Toss
- Soak


Ok so this was a funny idea that I honestly thought was not gonna work at first but alas it gave me quite a few results. A new ability in Merciless had been introduced this generation and I had wanted to capitalize on all the Poison Heal spam that the ladder was turning into after CFZs had been banned. Therefore, I decided on pairing Merciless Mega Gengar with Toxic Spikes in order to break down many common PH users in Primal Kyogre, Regiggigas, and Giratina while also being able to basically destroy anything slower then it thanks to Hex/Venoshock + Mericless dealing incredible amounts of damage. I also paired it with Quiver Dance Arceus and Shedinja in order to help Mega Gengar sweep much more easily and help it deal with more offensive teams. Its a bit of a gimmick strategy, but I have concluded that it is plausible to be used on the high ladder due to my testing.

Undesirable Allies

Mawile @ Mawilite
Ability: Simple
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Play Rough
- Sacred Fire
- Shift Gear

Solgaleo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- U-turn

Chansey @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Gentle Nature
IVs: 0 Def
- Stealth Rock
- Final Gambit
- Pain Split
- U-turn

Groudon-Primal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Bonemerang
- V-create
- Frost Breath
- U-turn

Xerneas @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Defog
- Parting Shot
- Milk Drink

Kyogre-Primal @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 32 SpA / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Core Enforcer
- Quiver Dance
- Milk Drink


So I wanted to abuse Pikachuun's meme abusing powers so I created a Mega Mawile team. However, after some playtesting, Mega Mawile put in actually a ton of work due to it dealing massive amounts of damage thanks to Huge Power. Simple pre-mega allows it to gain +2 in Atk and +4 in Speed, meaning it can solely sweep more defensive teams due to this. Fur Coat Primal Kyogre was a great partner to this as it can check it quite well even after some boosts and proceed to setup with its own Quiver Dance. Scarf Technician Primal Groudon was also great to use to destroy most offensive teams as well. A bit of a joke team, but hey it aint that bad.

So with that down, lets start talking about the current meta

===================================


The biggest elephant in the room, Quiver Dance Poison Heal Primal Kyogre has already shown itself to be one of the most dominant threats in the no limit metagame at the moment as it was last gen previous to its ban. I agree that it is even more deadly then its Water Bubble variant due to its pertaining more opportunities to customize its moveset to beat certain answers and it being able to invest into its bulk now thanks to the change. Main examples being Taunt to shut down defensive mons such as Mega Audino and Yveltal wanted to force the switchout with Whirlwhind or reset stats with Haze. Spore is also a viable option to prevent Imposter Chansey from setting up simultaneously with it alongside Leech Seed that gives it even more recovery and lets it deal with Sturdinja. Granted it cannot run all these option in one set, scouting as to what exact set your opponent is running can often be quite the task. I have seen Core Enforcer usage skyrocket on the ladder and in tours to try and prevent Primal Kyogre from setting up. But even then, the CE user has to actually take the hit from the Primal Kyogre or it can risk getting put to Sleep with the use of Spore if it is not running Safety Goggles. Every competent BH team needs at least one answer to this massive threat to not get destroyed by it and I can only see this issue getting worse with more Primal Kyogre variants popping up as time elapses (I am looking at you Substitute variants).



Speaking of Poison Heal sweepers, I believe Regigiggas is one of the other most dangerous ones right now as well. A set of Facade / Spore / Knock Off / Shift Gear can destroy most defensive teams due to it being able to put to sleep practically everything due to the removal of Safety Goggles + 140 BP Facade doing so much. The immunity to Spectral Thief is just another added bonus to Reigiggas ability to completely neuter setup check threats as they must only rely on phazing moves or Haze to stop this thing before they are put to Sleep. I run Innards Out on more of my defensive teams just to be able to deal with this monster as it can be so difficult to properly teambuild against it otherwise (although Icium Z Magic Bounce Core Enforcer Giratina helps).




I also feel that -ate users also got a massive boost when it comes to no EV limit as they can now invest fully into both offensive sides and no -ate clause means that spamming them can also be viable. This allows them to have a much easier time breaking through defensive threats that they had not been able to do before and can even threaten offense now with stronger Espeeds. However, APS still proves to be a major roadblock when using -ates due to most APS users being faster and strong enough to heavily dent/KO most -ate users. I still see them being quite a bigger threat in this metagame now even though defensive pivots being able to invest in both defenses now since -ates are still being quite underprepared for at the moment. \



I was a bit more on the fence when it came to APS in the no limit metagame, however I reached the same conclusion as I had previously where I still believe they should be banned. Even though offensive teams are on the decline where more balance teams are emerging and defensive pivots got bulkier, I still feel this ability is just too powerful when used properly. It still allows threats sweep lategame quite easily thanks to it still blocking a form of counterplay to setup. We also see these threats starting to go mixed now to break through conventional answers. Both Offensive and Defensive teams can struggle when facing these sweepers, which is why I feel we are encountering such an apparent issue right now. Pls ban this as soon as possible.



I still believe Innards Out promotes nothing healthy when it comes to teambuilding as the pressure it applies towards the opposing player is just too much and creates such an unjust risk/reward factor towards the enemy team. It becomes even more dangerous in the no limit metagame where more attackers are able to go mixed as well, creating more opportunities where IO is able to net a kill (and in a meta like BH where role compression is so predominant due to the ubiquity of threats we have, I don't find this competitive). A ban/suspect should be put in place very soon in my opinion.

As for allowing Protean again, after playing with the no ev limit BH meta on PO where Protean is allowed (and Arceus formes without Multitype too), I don't see it as such as a massive threat as it was in a EV limit metagame. This is mainly due to again defensive pivots having the ability to check a wide array of threats thanks to the investment in both defensive spectrums. Although not much debating can be done without proper playtesting, I can see it potentially coming back, but I feel we need to deal with more pressing issues at the moment.

Well this is all I have right now folks,
♫ Too da loo ♫
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
I am opening sample team submissions for teams pre max ev. If you have teams for the Ev limit meta even with water bubble, submit here and I can look it over and add it if we all feel it's good.

Please include proof of your teams' effectiveness with replays and ladder rank performance.

Also include what bans were in effect at the time the team was made or in use
Should we have a Pre-max EV Balanced Hackmons metagame as well?
I feel it is almost a shame that all of the previous work would (at best get archived), be ultimately rendered useless

I think it is something to consider, and would be a popular alternative for the now current Max-EV BH since, next to Monotype, this is the most popular OM!

It would not even have to go through any lengthy process since it is such a recent change, we could literally just create a new thread, called Max BH, for Max EV BH and move some relevant posts from here to there, while keeping this as the pre-max EV thread as it is/was... letting this one continue as BH and operate both threads simultaneously instead of replacing one with the other.

We could choose a new leader decided for whomever wants to handle Max BH and whomever wants to handle BH, or have 1 person do both...
 
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I'll end this topic right now. No, we're not having two metagames. Firstly, it's not Hackmons if it's not following the game. That's literally the concept of Hackmons. Might as well call it Mampmons if you're changing elements of it. And secondly, this "Mampmons" would be too similar to an existing OM.
 
Should we have a Pre-max EV Balanced Hackmons metagame as well?
I feel it is almost a shame that all of the previous work would (at best get archived), be ultimately rendered useless
No.

Buy the edition on day 1 and test yourself.
I vote NO BAN on most suspects cuz of respecting those writing top analysis.

Gamefreak releases a new season every 2 years with a small expansion in between.
So stuff is gonna change anyway, and if something is flat out broken it will be quickbanned.


Uselesscrab has asked on the first page of the SM research topic if full EVs are supported and nobody answered.
 
No.

Buy the edition on day 1 and test yourself.
I vote NO BAN on most suspects cuz of respecting those writing top analysis.

Gamefreak releases a new season every 2 years with a small expansion in between.
So stuff is gonna change anyway, and if something is flat out broken it will be quickbanned.


Uselesscrab has asked on the first page of the SM research topic if full EVs are supported and nobody answered.
There was no change on GFs end directly to say that EV limits are non existent. All they did was learn how to check for illegal things in a friendly online battle, so BH rules had to change to follow local battles. The entire decision over EV limit was not in the control of anyone actively posting in that thread, so it was ignored. The question has been answered anyways, so no point in going on with this.
 
I may just throw this out now. I have a poll in my sig, so you can vote on if you prefer the 508-EV limit or the No-EV-Limit for BH.

Just so that this is not a one-liner, here is something that I theorymonned on the fly to try to counter a few Poison Healers (not universal, but still):

Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Core Enforcer
- Spectral Thief / Heart Swap
- Baton Pass
- Shore Up / Slack Off / Heal Order / Roost / Recover

So Core Enforcer can nullify Poison Heal and cause Primal Kyogre/Regigigas to take damage from their Toxic Orbs. Spectral Thief can steal any stat boosts they have acquired prior, or Heart Swap can be used to steal stat boosts from Gigas. Baton Pass allows you to pass the boosts to something else, and Shore Up is used for healing. EVs are standard for a wall, Comatose for status immunity, if Comatose prevents you from fully falling asleep, and Leftovers for recovery because who doesn't like passive recovery.
 
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Among others, Comatose seems like a better option over sticky which let's you have another item and gives universal status immunity that can't be negated, which also checks normalize
I did change that, added Leftovers, and slashed every single recover clone except Moonlight, Morning Sun, and Synthesis.
 
Only downside is that set cannot handle Water Spout sets at all. Even if it switches into Ice Beam/Moonblast

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel in Heavy Rain: 279-328 (76.6 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 37-44 (10.1 - 12%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Non-Spout sets are far more consistent in function, and that Registeel probably handles those just fine if they've not gotten a few boosts, but Spout sets are way too dangerous to not be able to reliably answer.
 
LITERALLY MISSED THE TWO BEST ONES DUDE, WTF??????!!??!?!!???

Downvoted, disliked, unsubscribed and reported.


I don't really see why you would use Registeel over like, a water resist such as dialga or ferrothorn.
And this seem like it can get beaten by most ogre variants that run either taunt or substitute.
 
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