Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread



Electrike @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Switcheroo

With all the electric spam running around right now, it's very easy for something to be able to come in with a large amount of coverage, sap momentum and cripple an enemy mon. So why not choose Electrike for the role? Sure, his stats may be a little low, but it has the niche of being the only Electric type in LC with Lightning Rod, Switcheroo, and an additionally wonderful coverage move in Flamethrower.
 

Fille

Afk
is a Pre-Contributor
LCPL Champion


Electrike @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Switcheroo

With all the electric spam running around right now, it's very easy for something to be able to come in with a large amount of coverage, sap momentum and cripple an enemy mon. So why not choose Electrike for the role? Sure, his stats may be a little low, but it has the niche of being the only Electric type in LC with Lightning Rod, Switcheroo, and an additionally wonderful coverage move in Flamethrower.
All the Electric Spam running around? Elaborate ? Haven't seen any electric spam myself, thought that was only me lol
 
All the Electric Spam running around? Elaborate ? Haven't seen any electric spam myself, thought that was only me lol
Chinchou, Staryu running Thunderbolt (a lot more common lately), and several others. It's not one of the more prevalent things in LC, but it's definitely something that happened to me enough to where I needed to use Electrike to deal with all of it. Plus it has great synergy with a lot of different LC Pokemon.

Also something I wanted to bring up, with the influx of Pokemon in Gen 6 / 7, has a LC UU tier ever been considered?
 

Camden

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Chinchou, Staryu running Thunderbolt (a lot more common lately), and several others. It's not one of the more prevalent things in LC, but it's definitely something that happened to me enough to where I needed to use Electrike to deal with all of it. Plus it has great synergy with a lot of different LC Pokemon.

Also something I wanted to bring up, with the influx of Pokemon in Gen 6 / 7, has a LC UU tier ever been considered?
Given the current state of the metagame, Electric spam sounds like a bad idea. Diglett is everywhere. Scarf Electric-types are very high risk to use now.

Also, LC UU existed last gen but it wasn't very popular. It's coming back next month but I'm not sure if it'll receive much attention.
 
Given the current state of the metagame, Electric spam sounds like a bad idea. Diglett is everywhere. Scarf Electric-types are very high risk to use now.

Also, LC UU existed last gen but it wasn't very popular. It's coming back next month but I'm not sure if it'll receive much attention.
Well if there's anything I can do to help with its popularity please let me know.
 

Fille

Afk
is a Pre-Contributor
LCPL Champion
Given the current state of the metagame, Electric spam sounds like a bad idea. Diglett is everywhere. Scarf Electric-types are very high risk to use now.
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Camden

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So we just banned Aipom. If you somehow didn't see that, it's here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/aipom-is-now-banned-from-sm-lc.3622326/

With that, the metagame can actually progress now. Now that we're a couple of weeks in, disregarding Aipom, how does everyone feel about the meta? Does it feel the same as SM? Does it feel more aggressive? Less so? Also how does everyone feel about Diglett and Torchic? Whenever the idea of possible suspects comes up those are the two biggest names I hear. Of course you can talk about any Pokemon but I wanted to put a spotlight on those two.
 
Just to kick start something here, with Aipom being gone, does anyone think any other mons are on the risk of being banned? I personally like the metagame right now, but I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks.
 

Corporal Levi

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I think that webs deserves to be looked at, be it the move itself or its strongest abusers (Abra comes to mind). It could be argued that it isn't outright overpowered, as the average webs team has hard counters like Snivy / certain birdspam cores, while teams that are adequately prepared for these counters tend to be less overbearing in other ways; either way, though, I feel that webs forces matchup issues far more than an archetype of its strength should.

Other things that are often brought up for potential suspects include Torchic, Diglett, Vullaby, and to a lesser extent Baton Pass.
 

Fille

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I think that webs deserves to be looked at, be it the move itself or its strongest abusers (Abra comes to mind). It could be argued that it isn't outright overpowered, as the average webs team has hard counters like Snivy / certain birdspam cores, while teams that are adequately prepared for these counters tend to be less overbearing in other ways; either way, though, I feel that webs forces matchup issues far more than an archetype of its strength should.

Other things that are often brought up for potential suspects include Torchic, Diglett, Vullaby, and to a lesser extent Baton Pass.
Personally I don't feel like Webs is even good in the current state of the metagame.

1. One of the main reasons that made it so easy to keep Webs on the field for the whole game was that the only viable way to remove Webs was Staryu Rapid Spin, which was easy enough to block with Pumpkaboo/Frillish or even Gastly. Vullaby was the second best hazard control, but most people would opt for more offensive Weak Armor sets for Vullaby, and even if they went with a defensive one, then mons like Pawniard/Onix/LO Abra (After rocks)/Dgleam Gastly didn't mind Vullaby at all, and were all common on webs teams. This made it immensely difficult to remove Webs compared to how easy it was to set with Surskit/Spinarak.

Now we have Snivy rising in viability as a prime defogger, challenging Staryus throne (If it has not already taken it). Snivy as a sweeper was always annoying for webs, and now being the most slappable defogger/spinner on every team due to it's ability to switch in on the two most common SR Setters, Onix and Mudbray, means it'll be on about 50% of teams if not more. Unlike Vullaby, Defog Snivy actually got ways to beat Pawniard, so switching a Pawniard directly in can be dangerous (As Leaf Storm into hp Ground kills).

2. The rise in usage of mons like Mudbray. Mudbray itself can tank a hit from most Webs sweepers comfortably (If carrying the right spread that is), while retaliating with an EQ/Heavy Slam/Rock Slide to hit every prominent sweeper for SE damage (Except Gastly/Abra but tell me they be tanking with that paper defense). Other mons that got a buff this gen includes Spritzee, Mareanie and GrimerA, being bulky enough or having the typing to tank hits from Abra/Gastly/Croagunk, the 3 most common Webs sweepers. Mons like these simply do not care about the speeddrop. Also, due to the offensive nature of the metagame (Don't know if that's just an aftermath after Aipom meta or not), Flyingspam, Gastly and generally fast scarfers are also common now, and SturdyJuice Endure Onix being more common now than Weak Armor doesn't help much either.

3. Dewpider is by far not as good as expected. Many people may disagree with me on this, but I think Dewpider is still inferior to Spinarak, although that's not a discussion I will start now. Dewpider is a new bulky tool to webs, and yes it can act as a sweeper on those very same webs teams, but I have yet to see it do anything but set webs and die so far. While having that extreme Water STAB is great, it still struggles to beat common mons like Croagunk/Foongus/Snivy/Mareanie, and while being able to switch in on Foo/Timburr and set webs is great, it rarely does much else after that. It does not do much against common checks to Webs sweepers, bar GrimerA and Mudbray.


If anything is to be suspected in the near future, I'd rather have it be Torchic. Torchpass is still ridiculous, and the buff to mons like Mudbray, Snivy and Spritzee, all being good recievers, just further improved the playstyle. Mons like Rufflet / Timburr / Croagunk are also still extremely viable as recievers, and scary as shit. Mareanie getting more usage again kinda stings, but some players opts to go for Knock+Gunk isntead of Haze, which is a good thing for Torchpass.
 
I think that webs deserves to be looked at, be it the move itself or its strongest abusers (Abra comes to mind). It could be argued that it isn't outright overpowered, as the average webs team has hard counters like Snivy / certain birdspam cores, while teams that are adequately prepared for these counters tend to be less overbearing in other ways; either way, though, I feel that webs forces matchup issues far more than an archetype of its strength should.

Other things that are often brought up for potential suspects include Torchic, Diglett, Vullaby, and to a lesser extent Baton Pass.
I completely agree with Torchic or just baton pass in general, im really interested to see what the outcome would be if it were to be suspected, but I can't really comment on whether or not I think webs is broken, since personally I have no issues with it.
 
I feel as if Dweeble benefits a lot from Dewpider. If both are leads, or if they both happen to meet during the match, Dweeble has the potential to go to 3x if webs are set or KO Dewpider with rock blast after a single shell smash should Dewpider use liquidation instead of a web. Only thing that hinders Dweeble would be stealth rocks of course, but it was just mentioned above the rise of Snivy to defog it all away or the resumed use of Staryu.

Also, at least in my matches, there has been a rise in berry juice Mudbrays. Dweeble, after shell smash, is able to knock it off and then finish it again with another knock off (if they swap out it's a free hit on another pokemon) to defeat it.

Also pairing defiant scarf Pawniard to counter webs teams is a pretty good option. 2x attack and around 15 speed can hit a lot of things hard without using sucker punch.
 
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Gonna give my opinions on the Pokemon Levi mentioned. I don't have webs experience bar dragon spam webs or Mixed Vullaby experience in usum personally so not gonna comment on those.


Torchic- Torchic is a very potent threat both offensively and supportively. It's offensive sets (LO and Firium) have very few good answers. Fire+Grass coverage is just incredible and with 3 viable fire types and 2 of them being 2hkoed by Fire Blast you have a monster to switch in to. Common answers range from Bulky Waters like Mareanie, Frillish, Slowpoke and Chinchou to an extent to Flash Fire Ponyta (Being the best and most splashable answer imo) to Offensive checks like Corphish, Juice Wingull and Juice Onix. Firium also just nukes shit (see here). This doesn't even cover the team support roles it fulfills. Baton Passing speed to teammates is one supportive role Torchic does using it's offensive set. If it gets one of the pokemon that gives it troubles or walls it, no worry. Just protect and pass +2 speed to one of your teammates. This can be anything from a Snivy for Bulky Waters to a Bulky Water or Mudbray for Ponyta to a bulky set up sweeper like Croagunk, Spritzee and Rufflet to name a few. This not only preserves a terrifying offensive presence but also often creates another one in a bulky offensive pokemon that gains speed that it lacks. It's just a pain to deal with. The other set is just full support and thrives off of Offensive being so incredible. Curse/SD Pass. You threaten out something, set up and pass it to an abuser. This can range in effect from your opponent being severely down to just losing the game dependent on teams. I'm not sure how I feel about it personally; Without BP I feel it's fine. Having consistent answers that are fairly common pokemon such as Ponyta, Slowpoke and offensive waters which are excellent right now as well as rocks really hurting LO/Firium sets. Though I doubt any of us have ever used non BP so we'd have to see.

Diglett- I'm very biased on this pokemon; I've been since I began playing LC. I personally feel trapping makes pokemon much less skill based. It takes away one of 2 options you have every turn (attacking and switching). Groundium also just traps non flying and ghost types (obviously) at around 65% (Assuming eviolites are still in tact) And just KO most everything. While I do not think Diglett itself is broken. It constrains teambuilding far too much and really has no counterplay bar Shellder and Snivy being terrifying pokemon as well as making partners much more threatening than before. For example Mienfoo. Knocks a ton of things for diglett to trap. Non Evio Snubbull just dies if U-turned on into Groundium. Same goes for stuff like Croagunk, Mareanie and Spritzee potentially loses 1v1 set dependent and protect mindgames. This doesn't even talk about Memento and stealth rock support it has access to as well as just mindgames it plays. You always have to be thinking what happens if they double into diglett on (insert pokemon here). I can see the argument that Groundium can only be used once and it's not very strong and Pokemon such as shellder and Snivy come in and set-up/fire a big hit off for free afterwards but that happens when a pokemon dies regardless not to mention it has other sets such as Scarf, Life Orb, Eviolite and Sash. Diglett just makes sure the pokemon it traps dies rather than a sack for example.

BP- I get why this hasn't been banned. Other pokemon get it and are healthy options in the metagame though rare, but just ban it. It makes Torchic just a stupid pokemon and the pokemon that do have the option to run it it very rarely run it. The main reason to ban it would be Torchic passing speed to pokemon. Generally it passes this speed to Bulky Offensive threats whose general weakness is their lack of speed and ability to be revenge killed. You're now giving these pokemon the speed they're not meant to have originally and it just frankly makes some pokemon too absurd to deal with. There are also really no phasers in LC that are viable bar Roar Mudbray and/or Onix but they prefer to run things like Taunt/Endure and Rock Slide. The only hazer/clear smogger is Mareanie/the very rare Foongus/Grimer-A which makes BP in general even harder to stop whether just speed, Set up pass, or Full Chain pass. It would stink to lose fun stuff like SD Pass Mienfoo and Rowlet and NP Passers like Togepi and Rowlet but every other tier has banned BP already and in my opinion it has to be either Torchic or Baton Pass.

Keep in mind these are my opinions for potential suspects as Levi said
 
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Altariel von Sweep

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Well, long time I don't post here. The year is almost over, and our metagame has grown and flourished as one in which threats such as Wingull and Torchic have become threatening, as well as our old and new Pokémon getting new moves, and becoming each others' checks and counters. This picture will represent my spotlights about what has been the metagame for me.

This said, enjoy.
MEMES.jpg
 

Nineage

Pugnacious.
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Nineage's Guide to Building Boring Standard Teams in the Current LC Metagame

Hey, everyone! I was looking through Snake replays recently for some teambuilding inspiration and I noticed a fair number of the more standard offense teams fit within a skeleton which is not particularly difficult to replicate. I know lots of newer (and even more experienced) players want to dive into teambuilding but often like to have a kind of formula to follow when building. I can't speak to how these Snake players went about building these teams, but I've arranged them in a way that I hope reveals their similarities and gives you a way to build similarly effective teams. Plenty of teams don't follow this framework, and you won't be building crazy innovative teams by following this formula, but hopefully it will get you building effective teams that encourage you to eventually deviate and explore!

Here are the teams (all taken from phase 3 because I was lazy):
From Shrug:



From ggggd:


From Dundies:


From Sken:


I'm sure you can nitpick the way I arranged these, but for now, let's just assume my organization makes sense.
So, how might you (yes, you!) build a team just like these top LCers? Let's go through these teams...

#1) The Core
/
/
etc...
Each of these teams is organized with a two-Pokemon core at the beginning. The core is what makes each team somewhat unique, and what shapes the choices of Pokemon for the rest of the team. You can basically pick any two Pokemon with decent offensive and/or defensive synergy here. Some frequent choices I see are Gastly + Snivy, Flying-type + Diglett, Timburr + Grimer-Alola, or TypeSpam (two strong attackers which share an attacking type). These aren't the only options, of course...if you are following this formulaic process exactly, this is going to be your only real chance to use something creative, so if you really want to run your Z-Celebrate Bulbasaur core here, it will probably work.

#2) The Stealth Rock Setter + The Fighting Resist
+

I group these two together because you'll notice key patterns in how they are chosen. Essentially, your team should have a Water resist after these two Pokemon are added to your core. If the core has a solid Water check already (usually Snivy), neither the SR setter or fighting resist needs to also check Water, so these builders choose Onix, Pawniard, or even Drilbur to set Rocks, paired with a Fairy-type (Spritzee or Snubbull) or a Poison-type. When the cores don't have a Water check, the builders either add Onix + Foongus or Ferroseed + Fairy, two cores with good synergy which set up hazards, check Fighting, and check Water. This is modifiable, as always, but the pattern holds for many effective teams.

#3) The Fifth Mon

This is where things get more open, and harder to make generic. Basically, each builder adds a fifth Pokemon that responds to their team's needs. But how can I tell what my team's needs are, you ask? If you aren't sure, I've listed some patterns which might apply to your team!
  • If one of the key offensive Pokemon in the core is weak to Stealth Rock, builders often choose Staryu to remove hazards
  • If there is no Abra check at this point in building the team, builders often choose Grimer-Alola because Abra is borderline broken
  • Otherwise, builders choose a Flying-type, which put offensive pressure on the common Fighting-types and Snivy, and thus gain momentum against many common teams. Winning the momentum game is, of course, vital for this style of offense. (Protip: Wingull is broken.)
#4) Mienfoo

If you have followed the steps I've listed up to this point, your team likely won't have glaring weaknesses. So what do you do with your sixth slot? Just choose the most generally effective momentum-getter in the history of Pokemon. Mienfoo makes it onto every single listed team, and it deserves its spot for its ability to act as a soft check to a huge chunk of the meta while clicking U-turn. However, not all Mienfoo are created equal. Slow teams might choose a Choice Scarf Mienfoo, while faster, frailer teams might prefer a slower, bulkier pivot set. Teams which lack priority might want Fake Out, while others want a soft Fighting check and run Acrobatics. Think of your Mienfoo the way Donald Trump thinks of his base: it will support you basically no matter what.

Hopefully I've helped some of you who struggle to teambuild by giving you a framework for building pretty standard, effective teams! Feel free to leave any comments tweaking the process, and stick around in LC!
 


As most of you know Smogon Exhibition has begun. Similar to Snake, discussion will be held here for the same reasons. Discussion on battles, players, rankings, predicts, metagame trends and how many Mienfoo (Mienfoos?) are used every week is super duper encouraged and will all be held here. With SO many potential LC players in this tour will we see new faces come out and show themselves off or will the veterans dominate?

Schedule
Auction Prices




Potential LC Players (Tell me if I missed any please!)
Mind Blowing Blacephalons: Kingler12345, Sken, Fitzy72, Jox, Casparovv
Dragonspiral Tyrunts: Star, Shrug, ict, obii, ajna, PKM Trainer Gama, Kurukaito
Untier University: FLCL, op, fatty, Empo, Rodriblutar, mael
Cosmogtic Lunalas: sabella, Heysup, HT, washibon
Max Attack Stakatakas: Zorodark, tko, Kaori, SilentMango
Michelangelesque Mareanies: z0mog, Fille, false, Majaspic22, Disjunction, Z+V, Real FV13, Trace, soapy the kid, Shiba, ItzViper482, Serene's Grace, Nineage, KingKdot

Glhf all and happy posting!​
 
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smogon exhibition has a good lc pool this year. players that stand out to me include sken ,kingler12345, tko, op, and nineage in potential lc player pool plas listed. i'm excited to see what will happen mid season ; hopefully some of these talents will get drafted
 

tcr

sage of six tabs
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what do you all think about torchic in this meta?

personally I find torchic to be the absolute biggest pain to deal with. Its ability to come in and threaten to nuke something with inferno overdrive is insane, and you can't just switch in your onix or other Fire resist because Torchic will just HP Grass. You're forced to run stuff like Endure Onix, Mareanie, Ponyta, Tirtouga (something I've been using), other Ajet mons, or just happen to end up having the momentum the entire game and never ever give it a free turn (which, lets be honest, isn't always feasible and is a testament to just how strong it is). Even then, you switch in a check and it can just BP out, passing free stat boosts to things like Snivy, Timburr, Vullaby, etc. in tandem you can run torchic and diglett and boom thats already a solid core that bops everything except ajet users and endure onix.

I think that the combination of Fire and Grass is not exactly the best. Look at Ponyta for example, I find this to be an otherwise mediocre pokemon as it cannot be used as a pivot at all and is reliant on cheesing counters with Bloom Doom. So Torchic should be the same way right? Nah, Speed Boost really puts it over the line imo. Its such a low risk high reward mon right now that you can slap on any team and as long as theres a defensive backbone you're straight. SR should limit its potential but you run the risk of the torchic potentially being a berry juice variant, allowing it 6-7 turns in before hazards kill it, and even then you have to struggle to keep your hazards on the field with so many defoggers running around now.

in short i think that torchic right now is absolutely too powerful to deal with unless im just not using some tech that is popular. its ability to nuke shit with stab inferno overdrive means even former checks like SpD foo, timburr, some vullaby sets get ohkoed, a lot of frailer mons get ohkoed, coverage with grass means you're limited to a handful of momentum sinks as counters / checks (of them I think only endure BJ users aren't momentum sinks tbh) and even if you end up fighting something that you can't outright kill you can just BP out, get switch advantage and proceed to clean / wlalbreak with your +2-3 speed switchin.
 
just use 3 lives onix lol

though in all actuality, torchic is pretty hard to beat. its hard to try and kill because switching in scarfers is difficult if the torchic player has half a brain and bulky stuff gets pivoted out on, like tcr said. priority or trapping are your only options and that's also hard to consistently pull off since the torchic player can just pivot out of diglett or switch out on priority and survives most pursuits besides LO a-grimer (lol) and LO pawniard which 1. usually doesn't even run pursuit and 2. dies to fire blast. i guess revenging is a thing but when torchic is already +3 it's hard to outspeed and ko. the best checks are like chinchou and vullaby since they can pivot out after coming in but vull is 2hko'd by inferno overdrive+fb and bj chinchou has a 3/16 chance to get 2hko'd by hp grass+inferno overdrive (torchic needs a low roll on hp grass in order to not cause chinchou to consume bj).

if anyone knows the defensive counterplay to torchic i'd love to know
(btw i'm bad and new so if anything is wrong in that paragraph pls tell me)
 

Fille

Afk
is a Pre-Contributor
LCPL Champion
just use 3 lives onix lol

though in all actuality, torchic is pretty hard to beat. its hard to try and kill because switching in scarfers is difficult if the torchic player has half a brain and bulky stuff gets pivoted out on, like tcr said. priority or trapping are your only options and that's also hard to consistently pull off since the torchic player can just pivot out of diglett or switch out on priority and survives most pursuits besides LO a-grimer (lol) and LO pawniard which 1. usually doesn't even run pursuit and 2. dies to fire blast. i guess revenging is a thing but when torchic is already +3 it's hard to outspeed and ko. the best checks are like chinchou and vullaby since they can pivot out after coming in but vull is 2hko'd by inferno overdrive+fb and bj chinchou has a 3/16 chance to get 2hko'd by hp grass+inferno overdrive (torchic needs a low roll on hp grass in order to not cause chinchou to consume bj).

if anyone knows the defensive counterplay to torchic i'd love to know
(btw i'm bad and new so if anything is wrong in that paragraph pls tell me)
Ait I'll post some suggestions then, sets that makes the Torchic matchup waaayyy easier to deal with.


Mareanie @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 20 Def / 12 SpA / 180 SpD / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Sludge Bomb
- Haze
- Recover

Not that difficult to see coming. Lives hp grass n shit like that, can Haze etc. Solid mon, good fighting counter as well so not dead weight and can hard switch in on Torch and haze whatever comes in after.


Ponyta @ Eviolite
Ability: Flame Body
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- High Horsepower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

Resists STAB+Coverage, High Horsepower, can burn whatever comes in. Nt a bad option and is in a meta that loves it.


Onix @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Stealth Rock
- Roar / Endure

If Life Orb Chick then Fblast brings it down to below half meaning juice actives, otherwise Endure is kinda needed unless switching in on protect/hp grass.


Slowpoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 76 Def / 116 SpA / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off

Takes like no damage even from LO Hp Grass, can Twave whatever comes in or just tank a random Hp Grass and kill with scald because your opponent sucks or needs chip on a regen mon.


Chinchou @ Berry Juice
Ability: Volt Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 52 Def / 152 SpA / 152 SpD / 140 Spe
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Scald
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Ice Beam

Yeah I know someone is gonna cuss at me or call me noob for bringing an "unspread" up here or whatever, but I just prefer this spread in the current meta over the phys defense one because 1. Vullaby and 2. TORCHIC


Munchlax @ Berry Juice
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit / Whirlwind
- Facade / Return / Body Slam
- Fire Punch / Earthquake
- Recycle

I mean Thick Fat and base 85 special defence. O not to mention 135 Hp.


Corphish @ Eviolite
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 76 Def / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Crabhammer
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off

Tanks an Hp Grass if you want. BP where?


Infamy (Gible) (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Rough Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 36 Atk / 156 Def / 236 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Roar
- Stealth Rock

And the LC auth cringed. But seriously though, worth a consideration.


Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 116 Atk / 156 Def / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off

OOOooorr Iron Fist for that matter but I think that can die to a Zblast not entirely sure it's 6am and I'm too bored to slow and too bored to calc. Hp grass into Zblast doesn't kill tho, really mainly just a check but wanted to give it a mention as it threatens all the most common recievers bar sprit/croa, and drain punch+mach punch means you're almost fully healed again (aka like 50% max but still). Deserves a mention for that imo


Different ways of checking Torchic without the use of the above mentioned would be example Outspeeding it the turn it wants to kill you. I mean obviously this isn't always possible, but if you lead a scarfmon that can OHKO Chic vs it then there's always the chance of it dying turn 2 or you at least forcing it out. Same can be pulled if both you and your opponent send out Chic and scarfer at the same time, if something dies to Explosion or Recoil or doubles ig?

Water types are also obvious good checks, do I need explain why? If it carries Aqua Jet and potential SR: Great, idfk why you're scared.

As for late game, anything that can do a decent amount of damage to Torchic and has 22 or more Hp + 12 or more Sp.def with Eviolite can live a ZFblast (22 is max roll, 23 is safest). For 14 spdef Eviolite mons, 19 is the max roll meaning a Spdef Mienfoo can check Torchic lategame. For 16 spdef mons, 17 is all that's needed, 18 being a high roll and 16 being the common one (But what the fuck kinda 16 spdef mon got less than 18 hp anyway?). Having additional priority is great as well, so stuff like GrimerAlola is great!

And also the best one: STEALTH ROCKS. Fire type, potential LO. You know the deal. Bjuice doesn't care AS much, but Bjuice sets are also countered by literally anything, although admittedly literally anything can be a set up fodder as well so gotta be careful ig. Stealth Rocks + priority damage chip is a very good one though for sure.

Hope this helped somewhat at least, shouldn't be too hard to implement any of these in your teams or teambuilding.
 
I personally don't find Torchic that hard to deal with. Yeah, it has to be accounted for in teambuilding, but there are plenty of pokes that help check or counter Chic (as Fille pointed out). Chic does make you think, but it's usually pretty obvious what kind of plays the opponent is going to make like who they are passing to (I used this to use Ice Beam on an incoming Snivy with Chinchou once). You can take advantage of that. Another set I like is

Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 5
EVs: 84 HP / 36 Atk / 108 Def / 228 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Knock Off
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock

Obviously you don't switch Ferroseed in to Chic. But this thing is complete Torchic bait - and that's a good thing! Knowing that the opponent will want to take advantage of Ferroseed, you can use the switch to drop a Twave on Chic and cripple it for the match (I paired it with a speed booster of my own - carvanha - to take out Chic and sweep on my own after sacking Ferro). Also Ferro gets SR which if Chic has to pivot out, it will hate taking 25% coming back in
 

tcr

sage of six tabs
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I think it's a little misleading to just drop a ton of checks as it ignores the potential issues that I had in my first post. Namely, that most of the Pokemon that are checks to Torchic are momentum sinks and specifically designed to beat Torchic, meaning that they aren't exactly solid Pokemon on their own. Mareanie, Gible, Ponyta, Slowpoke, and Berry Juice Chinchou all have their own issues; half of those are simply trapped by Diglett meaning you have to play incredibly conservative with your check to even manage to contain Torchic. Some of the others you listed are simply bad pokemon (Gible) or are so flimsy of a check that it's not really fair to list them as an answer (Timburr). None of those really take into account Knock Off support, meaning all it takes is one or two misplaced Knocks from things like Mienfoo. Again though, those checks don't really address the biggest issue with Torchic, in that it can simply Baton pass out of everything except Corphish. The biggest problem with Torchic isn't that it's strong and has the potential to OHKO anything with Inferno Overdrive, the biggest issue is its ability to enable a ton of other stuff that is simply too difficult to prepare for, like a +2 Speed Timburr, +2 Speed Mudbray, +2 Speed Snivy, all common partners to Torchic. In my humble opinion Torchic is a huge low risk high reward Pokemon.

The name of the game is Speed. Most things in LC, once they achieve +1 / +2 Speed, simply lose their checks. Take Vullaby for example, one of the most devastating Pokemon on the ladder. One stray physical hit and you have a ~30 Speed Pokemon that's only outsped by a Scarf 18-20 Spe Pokemon, and literally no one runs those. Those stats matter a LOT, especially when you can pick and choose who you pass to in response to your opponent's switchin. More times than not, it's simply free momentum.

I'd like to compare Torchic to Yanma. For those of you who don't know, Yanma was a massive threat in the lc metagame, with 20 base speed, speed boost, and a compoundeyes Hypnosis set. The parallels I'd like to draw are:
The fact that Yanma is already at 20 Speed with this set means that it can forcibly shift
momentum at any time by going first and putting the enemy to sleep with an
accuracy-boosted Hypnosis so that they don't get to have a turn before Yanma
goes for the U-turn directly afterward.
This creates a pretty unfair disadvantage that is very hard to avoid since Yanma outspeeds
99% of the tier, and it requires no thinking or prediction to pull off.
This is definitely broken.
This was one of the first few thoughts during the tangma metagame, on specifcially the Hypnosis / U-turn set. Yanma could just hypnosis something as a lead, then u-turn out and get free momentum. This is literally what Torchic does, free momentum, sometimes enoguh to win the game. Yeah it has checks just like Yanma had Munchlax / Elekid / Murkrow / Magnemite / More. A laundry list of checks does not mean that something simply isn't or shouldn't be looked at in detail, its more about the situation that the pokemon creates. Torchic creates a situation that has people absolutely scrambling to deal with the switchin, going bonkers trying to fit offsets into your team just to deal with the amount of pressure it creates, and generates almost free momentum. That's not even getting into figuring out what set is which, because the ways you deal with Evio Torchic are different from how you deal with Full BP Chic are different from how you deal with LO Chic are even different from how you deal with Inferno Overdrive Chic.

Is Torchic broken? I certainly think so. Its mixture of sets and unpredictable nature mean that in the hands of a decent player Torchic should absolutely stomp. Is it unbeatable? no there are a handful of ways to deal with it but people should not be limited to those handful of ways.

Does Torchic make lc unfun? I kinda think so. Every time I see a Torchic on the ladder i sigh internally and prep myself for some of the hardest games ive played, and then despise the creature when it simply baton passes into some check that i've theoretically already checked / countered on my team but because the receiver is at +2 its GG right there (Rufflet comes to mind, as does Timburr or Mudbray). Is full BP unfun to play against? yeah it really is. f tahu D:

Is a combination of those two deterring people from playing little cup? I don't think so. I'll be honest LC is a really fun tier to play, the community is friendly so a lot of people are drawn to it. It's certainly not on the level that past suspects were in terms of power and warping of the meta. I believe that the biggest issue lies with Baton Pass, allowing the Torchic user 10s of paths to choose from in terms of customization and playing out a game compared to most mons that only have one or two paths. I would fully support a BP ban, seeing as one of the biggest reasons BP wasn't banned in XY was because so many people thought it was a joke of a suspect and they argued that quickpassers would get hurt when the REAL issue was full BP. Well, now pretty much the only quickpasser is also a mainstay on a fullpass team and is arguably broken by itself. soooo take that how you will.
 

sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
just use 3 lives onix lol

though in all actuality, torchic is pretty hard to beat. its hard to try and kill because switching in scarfers is difficult if the torchic player has half a brain and bulky stuff gets pivoted out on, like tcr said. priority or trapping are your only options and that's also hard to consistently pull off since the torchic player can just pivot out of diglett or switch out on priority and survives most pursuits besides LO a-grimer (lol) and LO pawniard which 1. usually doesn't even run pursuit and 2. dies to fire blast. i guess revenging is a thing but when torchic is already +3 it's hard to outspeed and ko. the best checks are like chinchou and vullaby since they can pivot out after coming in but vull is 2hko'd by inferno overdrive+fb and bj chinchou has a 3/16 chance to get 2hko'd by hp grass+inferno overdrive (torchic needs a low roll on hp grass in order to not cause chinchou to consume bj).

if anyone knows the defensive counterplay to torchic i'd love to know
(btw i'm bad and new so if anything is wrong in that paragraph pls tell me)
Torchic doesn't care about pursuit anyways because it can always Baton Pass out. I do agree with there being a lack of defensive measures against it though. Very few things enjoy switching into any attack from Torchic, and the ones that can switch in easily are usually able to be trapped by Diglett. Almost all of the sets that Fille posted are weak to Diglett, and the ones that aren't don't necessarily enjoy switching in on a strong Torchic attack. The ones that are solid Torchic checks are just pretty bad in the metagame overall and making your team weaker just to check Torchic better kinda sucks. Fille mentions using anything with a certain amount of hp and spdef, but a small amount of chip/knocking off Eviolite can do enough. Stealth Rocks can help a lot against Torchic if you can keep them on the field, but with the advent of USUM giving everything defog that can be a bit harder. Snivy has risen in usage recently (also making water-types worse which makes checking Torchic harder), and keeping up hazards can be quite difficult.

To me, what makes Torchic so annoying to deal with is how it feels as if there is very little counterplay to it. Typically for super fast and frail cleaners such as Elekid and Carvahna, the counterplay is either priority or having something that can tank an attack and revenge. However, Torchic has just enough bulk to live Mach Punches/Vacuum Waves from Timburr and Croagunk respectively and either KO back or Baton Pass out to a counter. Sucker Punch doesn't do anything because it can Baton Pass for free. While there are a select few Pokemon that can tank an attack and revenge, keeping them healthy all the way to late game and able to tank a Z Fire Blast can be incredibly difficult and sometimes impossible. A lot boils down to "Torchic can just Baton Pass out to something that counters your check", and it can be very frustrating to play against. Both Diglett and Baton Pass enable Torchic to be incredibly menacing and certain shifts in the metagame don't help in the slightest.
 
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