DP UU counters sections

[Fishin]

One problem I've noticed is that the counters sections of several UU pokemon are really lacking solid info on how to counter pokemon in their own tier. For example:

Residual damage messes up Focus Sash and to an extent, Substitute/Salac Berry options. With Choice Scarf, it is relatively weak offensively, but without, many Pokémon are faster. Choice versions get walled comprehensively by Weezing and Dusknoir, and Skarmory to a lesser extent. However, nothing will guarantee your safety in borderline/underused. In all environments, Primeape has a relatively tough time switching in.

It gives you absolutely no help at all countering Primeape in UU. This is understandable at the time the analysis was written since the UU metagame wasn't explored at all (as well as the fact that many UU pokemon are best countered by prediction rather than switching in a 100% counter), but that time has come and gone. Several other UU pokemon have this problem. So, fixing some of the worst ones:



http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/primeape

[Counters]
<p>Residual damage messes up Focus Sash and to an extent, Substitute/Salac Berry options. With Choice Scarf, it is relatively weak offensively, but without, many Pokémon are faster. In OU, Choice versions get walled comprehensively by Weezing and Dusknoir, and Skarmory to a lesser extent. </p>

<p>In UU, a surefire counter is difficult to find. Scyther can come in safely on Close Combat and Earthquake, outspeeds Primeape, and easily delivers the coup de gras with Aerial Ace. Rotom doesn't outspeed Primeape, but can come in safely on Thunder Punch in addition to the aforementioned two attacks and threatens with Will-O-Wisp. Claydol works very well against any Primeape without Ice Punch. Quagsire and Gastrodon can be KO'd in two hits by the Band version but work fairly effectively against Scarf variants. In all environments, Primeape has a relatively tough time switching in.</p>



http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/hitmonlee

[Counters]
<p>In OU, Gliscor, Cresselia and Weezing are the safest switches into Hitmonlee, shrugging off Blaze Kick and Stone Edge. In UU, Nidoking, Nidoqueen and Toxicroak all make decent switch-ins, though they need to avoid Earthquake and in the case of Toxicroak, Blaze Kick. Claydol works very well with resistance to several of most of Hitmonlee's attacks, good defense and HP, and STAB Psychic. Rotom and Scyther outspeed Hitmonlee and can switch in safely on Close Combat and Earthquake; Scyther hits Lee's weak defense with Aerial Ace while Rotom threatens a burn.</p>



http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/pinsir

[Counters]
<p>In OU, Pinsir is not getting past Skarmory or Gliscor any time soon. Dusknoir makes a decent switch in as well. Weezing can take Hyper Cutter versions on, but a Mold Breaker Pinsir can bypass Levitate and Earthquake him. </p>

<p>In UU, Pinsir is more dangerous. Nidoking and Nidoqueen can take on any variants without Earthquake. A defensive Hitmontop can take X-Scissor and Stone Edge and hit back with Stone Edge of it's own - Hyper Cutter stops Intimidate, though, and CB Pinsir has a chance of a 2HKO with Close Combat.</p>




http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/scyther

[Counters]
<p>Though Stealth Rock might help Scyther in cases, by and large, it will be crippled by it. Priority attacks like Mach Punch will beat anything that tries to setup Reversal. Torkoal does a decent job of walling Scyther, and hits hard with Flamethrower. It can also hit Baton Pass recipients with Will-O-Wisp (excluding Fire types, none of which will enjoy an Earthquake) or Yawn. Rotom has Thunderbolt and resists all of Scyther's attacks except Night Slash, but might get worn down after too many switch-ins. Cloyster doesn't enjoy Brick Break, but it isn't particularly threatened by Scyther's other attacks and can hit Scyther with Ice Beam or Ice Shard. Quagsire can easily survive one hit and OHKO in return with Stone Edge.</p>



http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/swellow

[Counters]
<p>Most Rock and Steel types are counters to Swellow, although you need to be careful of Pursuit when you switch to them. This includes especially Tyranitar, Rhyperior, Bronzong and Skarmory. In UU, the Rock/Steel types (Aggron, Probopass, and Bastiodon) wall it completely. Most other Rock types stand a decent chance (Omastar and Magcargo are particularly useful thanks to neutrality to Steel Wing). In addition, Pokemon with Protect can stall and force Swellow to take Burn damage. Priority moves (especially Ice Shard) combined with residual damage can often lead to a KO thanks to Swellow's poor defenses.</p>


Anyone (preferably with some UU experience) have anything to add?

 

[Amelia]

I'm only adding about Butterfree here. Indeed, it is weak to a lot of things, but the threat of double status (or even triple with toxic) makes countering it harder then what you might expect.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/butterfree

[Counters]
<p>Butterfree really hates rock attacks, and thus needs to be careful of them. As Stealth Rock takes out 50% from Butterfree anytime it comes in, it's also a valid counter. Basically, if Butterfree doesn't expect it, a sudden Rock attack will surely spell its doom.</p>
<p>Butterfree is really fragile, and hitting it with a Super-Effective move or even a STABed move will normally spell it's doom unless it carries a Focus Sash. With that in mind, Fire, Flying, Electric, or Ice Pokemons are normally safe switches, provided they can take statuses.
<p>Hypno and Banette can come in on a Sleep Powder, but they have to be careful of Stun Spore, Toxic, and Hypno must be careful of Bug Buzz. Anything with Sleep Talk will happily take the Sleep Powder, just make sure it's not weak to Bug.</p>
<p> Butterfree is quite fragile, and basically anything can come in and chase it away if they're not weak to Bug. However, when fighting Butterfree, beware of the status effects it can cause, and switch in your Pokemons accordingly.</P>

 

[ODDish]

Quagsire could possibly switch in to all three, and utilise encore or yawn to stop their rampaging ... although clearly yawn will have no effect on Vital Spirit Primeape.

Surprisingly Magcargo makes a great counter to Brick Breakless Scyther's with Flame Body giving a 30% of burning the bug, it can recover off any damage it sustains, and threaten with STAB Fire/Rock attacks.

Really any of the Choice sets are troubled by anything with Protect, and in the case of all three good prediction skills are, unfortunately, often the best counter.

Both the Primeape and Scyther Salac Reversal sets, and possibly even the Pinsir flail set, will struggle with Banette who is immune to Reversal/Flail and has Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch as its own priority moves.

 

[Havak]

Kabutops is pretty much treated as an OU Pokémon on its Analysis page.

The problem is, that if we're going to be constantly shifting Tiers every 3 months instead of keeping them steady, some Analyses may need to be edited every 3 months as well.

Unless we do a seperate OU & UU countes area for Pokémon we feel will see usage in a different tier every so often. Like Tentacruel has...

 

[Fishin]

Personally, I always use Brick Break on Scyther - without it, there are just too many things it gets walled by. Quagsire can get 2HKO'd by CB Close Combat IIRC, but it can probably work against Scarf versions and Scyther, I'll mention that as well.

You're right, Butterfree could probably use a slightly revamped counters section (Primeape is also a decent switch-in since it has Vital Spirit as well). Actually, come to think of it, Swellow's counters section is entirely OU-centric, I should revamp that for UU a bit too.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I'm only adding about Butterfree here. Indeed, it is weak to a lot of things, but the threat of double status (or even triple with toxic) makes countering it harder then what you might expect.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/butterfree

[Counters]
<p>Butterfree really hates rock attacks, and thus needs to be careful of them. Aggron and Propobass can switch in easily and threaten it out. As Stealth Rock takes out 50% from Butterfree anytime it comes in, it's also a valid counter. Basically, if Butterfree doesn't expect it, a sudden Rock attack will surely spell its doom.</p>
<p>Hypno and Banette can come in on a Sleep Powder, but they have to be careful of Stun Spore, Toxic, and Hypno must be careful of Bug Buzz. Anything with Sleep Talk will happily take the Sleep Powder, just make sure it's not weak to Bug.</p>
<p> Generally, anything that can take statuses and is not afraid of Bug can switch in and scare it off. In this respect, Guts and Quick Feet Pokemon are generally safe bets, as long as another Pokemon is sleeping, or they also carry sleep talk.</P

Tried to fix some things. I never really played UU, but wouldn't Hitmonlee be a good counter? Blaze Kick fries Buterfree, and he is immune to Stun Spore. I think he deserves a mention, but something in the lines of "once Butterfree has put something to sleep, Hitmonlee walks over it".

 

[Amelia]

Well, Hitmonlee is kinda covered in the last part, which says about Guts/Quick Feet.

@ Havak: Probably for those Pokemons, we write for both OU and UU? For instance, if Tentacruel goes to OU, then readers will read the OU section, whereas if he's still in UU, readers read the UU section.
Thus, put the OU section on top and the UU section below, something like that?

 

[Havak]

Yeah Ae, that's exactly what I meant. It's just there are only so many we can predetermine, and they may only be in OU for 3 months... We need to come up with a way of figuring this out, unless we write OU counters for the most used UUs?

I don't know... =/

 

[cornflake]

Until the tiers become 105% defined, it's difficult to create surefire counters and analyses.

But I like Fishin's work.

 

[chaos]

Why not just add OU stuff to UU pokemon when necessary, and if they get demoted again dont delete it? lol

 

[Havak]

Why not just add OU stuff to UU pokemon when necessary, and if they get demoted again dont delete it? lol

Lol. Fair enough (Y)

 

[Fishin]

Well, Hitmonlee is kinda covered in the last part, which says about Guts/Quick Feet.

Lee has Limber and not Guts, though.

 

[Amelia]

@Fishin: Got it, i'll change it a bit.

And btw, agreeing with chaos.

 

[ODDish]

<p>Butterfree really hates rock attacks, and thus needs to be careful of them. Aggron and Propobass can switch in easily and threaten it out. As Stealth Rock takes out 50% from Butterfree anytime it comes in, it's also a valid counter. Basically, if Butterfree doesn't expect it, a sudden Rock attack will surely spell its doom.</p>

Isn't Probopass more likely to be threatening with Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Ice? The only rock attack it learns are physical, but I've only ever encountered special based Probopass. I don't think it even has a physical set listed in its analysis. Just something to consider.

 

[Amelia]

Whoops. Sorry, i was trying to think of pokemons who carry rock moves and is resistant to bug... i'll edit propobass out. Let me be frank here, i hardly see any rock moves in UU.

Edit: On 2nd thought, i decided to revamp it a bit.

 

[ODDish]

I don't understand why it has to be a rock move ... with Butterfree's less than stellar defences surely any solid hit from a Fire, Ice, Electric or Rock type attack spells doom for the ickle flutterby?

 

[Amelia]

I've already covered that in the 2nd paragraph, but rock takes priority because of X4 weak and stealth rock.

 

[Fishin]

Well, the topic's been up for over 48 hours so I'm putting the changes on the SCMS. I also fixed a small grammar error on Lee and mentioned that Torkoal could WoW BP recipients on Scyther.

Ae Sakura, just tell me when you're finished with Butterfree and I can put it up.

 

[Cynthia]

Good work, UU counters for UU pokemon. I would not mention Mach Punch as a Scyther counter, since it's a 4x resist.

Also use "coup de grace" over "coup de gras" for correctness.

 

[Jediment]

Vigoroth was recently granted its own analysis (based on the grounds that it isn't played at all like Slaking, which is absolutely true); the counters section is, however, written with mostly OU counters in mind.

[COUNTERS]
Any Vigoroth who opts for Fire Punch over Focus Punch will be in deep water when Cloyster comes out to play. With monstrous defense on par with Aggron's (and no nasty ground weakness) coupled with the ability to hit on Vigoroth's poor base 55 special defense, Cloyster really annoys Vigoroth. Armaldo resists or is neutral to all of Vigoroth's main attacks, has solid defenses, and strikes hard with 125 attack. Bulky waters in general can be a pain, as Vigoroth can't score a super effective hit on them. Poliwrath can switch in on any Dark attack and be immediately threatening with Focus Punch or Brick Break.

 

[ryubahamut]

committed vigoroth.

 

[Volteon]

In Camerupt there're no UU counters listed as well.
EDIT: And Froslass is threated as a OU in the entire analysis

 

[Fishin]

Good work, UU counters for UU pokemon. I would not mention Mach Punch as a Scyther counter, since it's a 4x resist.

Also use "coup de grace" over "coup de gras" for correctness.

The mach punch thing was just as a finisher for sets using Endure or subbing down to critical hp, so it should work as a finisher once the sub is gone. I'll change coup de gras (I'll try and find the accented letter so I can put it on).

As for Camerupt and Frolass...they really both need re-explanations for the UU metagame, it's not just the counter sections.

 

[Blissey_ODonnell]

Having used Choice Band Crawdaunt myself, I feel that the counters section needs to be updated. It also lists Empoleon, which is BL.

[Counters]
<p>Choice Band Crawdaunt packs a lot of power, and has no 100% UU counters, so the best way to beat it is with prediction and its low Speed. Bulky Poliwrath can wall most of its moves, but hates Aerial Ace. Quagsire and Meganium only lose to Crunch, and the same goes for other UU "bulky waters", like Blastoise and Wailord. Toxicroak is immune to Crabhammer and resistant to Superpower and Crunch, but like Poliwrath, dies to Aerial Ace. Crawdaunt can counter itself with resistance to its STABs and decent defense, but cannot switch in on Superpower.</p>

<p>If you attempt to use it in OU, watch out for bulky Gyarados. Other bulky waters can work, but not as effectively, as Crawdaunt boasts resistance to Surf and Ice Beam, and can 3HKO most with Crunch. Oddly enough, Crawdaunt is rather difficult to completely counter in OU due to its STAB moves being effective against some common OU walls, like Cresselia and Hippowdon, but still has quite low speed that is easily capitalized upon.</p>

 

[Aldaron]

this post is for jrrrrrrr's and Aldaron's purposes...

should NOT be deleted pretty much ALL these uu Pokemon need a hell of a lot more emphasis on uu in their analyses

maybe fishin should run that project ?_?