D/P Meta Game: 1 Year Later Disscusion

[Wishy]

Okay... Guys, the improvements are from April 22nd of last year until now. Meaning, no one evolved, no one got new moves, and the Special/Physical split had already taken place. We are supposed to be discussing how DP is compared to early DP, not to late ADV.

So, the one Pokemon I think improved the most throughout the year would be Lucario. This time last year people still thought Lucario had to go Mixed to break walls. In the last year, both Specs Lucario and SDLuke have emerged as the better options, being able to break walls of all kinds without needing to split EVs. Honestly, sometime in November/December someone put Scizor SD Quick Attack set on Lucario with Extremespeed. Scizor usage tanked and Lucario skyrocketed to the top 10. It's just wow.

Celebi earns an honorable mention here. This was even more uncommon than Lucario a year ago, as in non-existent. I really don't encounter Celebi, but the fact that we even discuss it shows that it improved as the metagame evolved.




For flopping, Electivire gets a mention. It just can't stat-up fast enough for DP and that really kills it. I would also like to mention Rhyperior, but thanks to Jibaku, we found out that Rhyperior sucked before DP was released in America. I think I have to give this slot to Slowbro. Supposed to be the new Bulky Water, combining Starmie and Suicune into one. This approach obviously failed; how often do you see Slowbro anymore? Slower than TTar, Dark weak, and supposed to be a Physical tank. Yeah.... why did we think that would work?

Yet Slowbro can still come in on many physical sweepers anyway, and scare them away with Surf, Ice Beam, and HP Electric. As well as Focus Punch, with no EV investment and even with Bold (Needs Stealth Rock support, or can just go Relaxed) can OHKO Weaviles and Tyranitars coming in trying to nail you with Dark-STAB. Heracross is probably Slowbro's #1 enemy, but if you can predict well and switch into Close Combats and Stone Edge (Not too sure), you can at least make it flee for the time being. Obviously though, Gliscor is the best Heracross counter and Slowbro shouldn't be used as such. But, if you can predict the switch in Psychic + Stealth Rock = dead bug. Hidden Power Electric handles Gyarados, Ice Beam handles Physical Dragons, Surf for Mamoswine, Physical Infernape (Beware of Grass Knot), and Machamp (Who also hates Psychic). Slowbro deserves special mention of walling Machamp, as it resists Dynamic Punch and Own Tempo prevents confusing, making the move literally useless against him (Beware of Thunder Punch, but you can Slack Off any damage).

@_@ Sorry for writing all that, it's just people seem to underestimate his ability to wall Physical threats and he can be a very niche counter to quite a few of them.

Anyways, totally agree about Celebi. Everyone thought that Celebi has doomed to limbo because of Pursuit, but it really still is a great Pokemon and continues to do its job well. I rarely see people switch in Tyranitar anyway at the risk of being Grass Knot'd. Still a solid Pokemon to use.

I thought Tentacruel was going to be even more UU than it was before, but boy was I wrong. The crazy Jellyfish Squid thing can compete in OU easily, and is the best Toxic Spike-Spinner next to Forretress. All thanks to that one guy (Obi, right?) and his stall team which launched it into fame.

 

[TUskate]

Okay... Guys, the improvements are from April 22nd of last year until now. Meaning, no one evolved, no one got new moves, and the Special/Physical split had already taken place. We are supposed to be discussing how DP is compared to early DP, not to late ADV.

So, the one Pokemon I think improved the most throughout the year would be Lucario.

I'm in total agreement about Lucario. I think everyone looked at it and saw 90 base speed and rather frail defenses and thought it would be extremely tough to play. But now...arguably the best choice specs user, and one of the most feared physical sweepers. I can't see Luke usage dropping anytime soon.

 

[kd24]

Haha suckers I was right. Lucario has been the biggest improvement but I didn't go into detail like that. Also Tauros flopped early but Rhyperior and Mr. Mime also need mentions. I remember right at the beginning people saying Solid Rock will make Rhyperior invincible with SS because SE attacks have a low base power. That was until we figured out it wasn't as low as we thought it was. Then jibaku showed us how much it fails. Also Mr. Mime was the same as people expeted more Mr. Mime usage because of filter. I thought this was stupid and a lot of people did as well but you had people saying it. Well that was a flop.

 

[Hyra]

Yet Slowbro can still come in on many physical sweepers anyway, and scare them away with Surf, Ice Beam, and HP Electric. As well as Focus Punch, with no EV investment and even with Bold (Needs Stealth Rock support, or can just go Relaxed) can OHKO Weaviles and Tyranitars coming in trying to nail you with Dark-STAB. Heracross is probably Slowbro's #1 enemy, but if you can predict well and switch into Close Combats and Stone Edge (Not too sure), you can at least make it flee for the time being. Obviously though, Gliscor is the best Heracross counter and Slowbro shouldn't be used as such. But, if you can predict the switch in Psychic + Stealth Rock = dead bug. Hidden Power Electric handles Gyarados, Ice Beam handles Physical Dragons, Surf for Mamoswine, Physical Infernape (Beware of Grass Knot), and Machamp (Who also hates Psychic). Slowbro deserves special mention of walling Machamp, as it resists Dynamic Punch and Own Tempo prevents confusing, making the move literally useless against him (Beware of Thunder Punch, but you can Slack Off any damage).

But he's no longer OU and he was expected to be the premier Bulky Water. That's a large drop.

 

[Wishy]

But he's no longer OU and he was expected to be the premier Bulky Water. That's a large drop.

Yes, because like I said, he is underestimated in his potential because people look and say "Ew Dark weak" and move on, which is pretty stupid. I don't remember anyone really calling him the premier Bulky Water anyways.

 

[Ambitions]

Results are in.

 

[kd24]

I guessed Lucario right and I got the second and third place choice for losers. Haha suckas.

And why is cress on the suck list? She is still the best wall for garchomp, period.

I led the way for all of you to mooch off me and say tauros and lucario.

~KD24~

 

[Ambitions]

Cresslia was terrifically over hyped in the beginning. People where expecting it to be the next Blissy or something, but its not. Tyranitar, Heracross, Weavile, and Scizor all eliminate it with ease, Blissy can simply out stall it. Its just not what we thought it was gona be today a year ago.

I personally thing people need to start using the Timid version and they will see that it is a lot more effective.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

I guessed Lucario right and I got the second and third place choice for losers. Haha suckas.

And why is cress on the suck list? She is still the best wall for garchomp, period.

I led the way for all of you to mooch off me and say tauros and lucario.

~KD24~

Cresselia? Why not bronzong? An adamant CB Garchomp can do alot of damage on cressie

 

[Wishy]

Cresslia was terrifically over hyped in the beginning. People where expecting it to be the next Blissy or something, but its not. Tyranitar, Heracross, Weavile, and Scizor all eliminate it with ease, Blissy can simply out stall it. Its just not what we thought it was gona be today a year ago.

I personally thing people need to start using the Timid version and they will see that it is a lot more effective.

Except for ResTalk variants which can out-stall Blissey.

Yeah, Cresselia was extremely over-hyped and it is a pain in the ass to take down without Super-effective hits, but it's damage output is so crappy anway, so unless she is packing SE moves herself, she will deal minimal damage. :/

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Results are in.

Good list. I still say folks ought to rethink Gyarados though. The change in metagame has really left him behind the Eight Ball.

He can still be an effective part of a team, but Scarf'd hypnotizers, Gengar, stealth rocks, etc has really cut his effectiveness down.

 

[Ambitions]

Good list. I still say folks ought to rethink Gyarados though. The change in metagame has really left him behind the Eight Ball.

He can still be an effective part of a team, but Scarf'd hypnotizers, Gengar, stealth rocks, etc has really cut his effectiveness down.

Thats why the ass whole is used as a lead. I mean, Gengar scarf sleeps it, in comes Blissy, Gengar switches out, Blissy Aromatherapys, in comes Infernape, In comes Gyara taking CC like a champ, Infernape runs, Gyara DD's, SWEEEP!

 

[Helios]

Thats why the ass whole is used as a lead. I mean, Gengar scarf sleeps it, in comes Blissy, Gengar switches out, Blissy Aromatherapys, in comes Infernape, In comes Gyara taking CC like a champ, Infernape runs, Gyara DD's, SWEEEP!

Punch of the thunder anyone?

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Thats why the ass whole is used as a lead. I mean, Gengar scarf sleeps it, in comes Blissy, Gengar switches out, Blissy Aromatherapys, in comes Infernape, In comes Gyara taking CC like a champ, Infernape runs, Gyara DD's, SWEEEP!

Gengar v. Gyarados lead I thunderbolt it to heck. No thought on that one.

I'd add that if Gengar is anywhere on your team ScarGar will still outrun Gyarados after a single DD. Unless Gyarados is Jolly, Gengar doesn't even need a Scarf to outrun him. In the scenario you outlined Infernape switches to Gengar. Then Gengar blows away Gyarados with Thunderbolt even after the Dance.

It isn't just Stealth Rocks (Which hurts), its the rising prominence of Gengar who easily outruns Gyarados and sends him packing with Thunderbolt. Toss on top of that the rising prominence of Celebi who can counter Gyarados and you're seeing less and less teams that are in any way weak to him.

He can still participate on teams and play a role, but his threat to teams is falling fast. If Garchomp is holding Stone Edge (which the Band and Scarf versions do) Bulkydos doesn't even counter Garchomp anymore 100%.

EDIT: I'd add that Gyarados is one change of the metagame away from being cool again however. D/P handed him everything he needs to be a top tier pokemon.... its just the current metagame isn't helping him at all.

 

[matty]

Biggest Gains:
-Mamo: how you were put into UU for a little while still boggles the brain
-Bronzong: one of the most reliable/used leads and dual walls in the meta-game
-Gliscor: honestly didn't see many teams with him at the start of D/P but he sure did pick up some steam; best counter for the Lucario epidemic
-Chomp: >_>
-Shaymin: Seed Flare anyone?
-Infernape: Best Mixsweeper in my opinion
-Lucario: 'Nuff Said

Biggest Flops:
-Shedinja: SR = death
-Regice: Use to use him; then he became useless. Blissey has become the flag-bearer of the special walls :\
-Steelix: Man, the defensive wall of previous generations has been almost completely replaced

On The Fence:
-Electivire: you had so much potential in RMT, but you let us down; I still think you can make a comeback (when you finally get SD....)
-Ambipom: "Where'd you go/I miss you so/Some times I wonder about you..."; :(
-Ninjask: I still think you have potential, just not as much as you did pre-SR era
-Houndoom: :(
-Floatzel: so under appreciated; get another evo. and we'll be in business >:)

 

[Surgo]

]Good list. I still say folks ought to rethink Gyarados though. The change in metagame has really left him behind the Eight Ball.

He can still be an effective part of a team, but Scarf'd hypnotizers, Gengar, stealth rocks, etc has really cut his effectiveness down.

This doesn't even make sense. Scarf Gengar was massively popular at and before the release of DP in America, as was Stealth Rock, and Gyarados was still whored to all get out (and for good reason).

 

[the_artic_one]

Gengar v. Gyarados lead I thunderbolt it to heck. No thought on that one.

I'd add that if Gengar is anywhere on your team ScarGar will still outrun Gyarados after a single DD. Unless Gyarados is Jolly, Gengar doesn't even need a Scarf to outrun him. In the scenario you outlined Infernape switches to Gengar. Then Gengar blows away Gyarados with Thunderbolt even after the Dance.

Yeah, it would be better to waterfall in that situation.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

This doesn't even make sense. Scarf Gengar was massively popular at and before the release of DP in America, as was Stealth Rock, and Gyarados was still whored to all get out (and for good reason).

I can only go with what I see.... and I know I don't have a problem with Gyarados when I play. I've yet to see a Warstory recently that shows Gyarados effectively functioning in the current metagame, etc.

If you've had different experience recently with him, I'll bow to your superior experience. I just know I haven't seen it... and if you think about what's currently popular it makes some sense.

 

[IggyBot]

I still heavily disagree with Electivire being number 1 on the flop list. I decided to finally test out Mixvire first hand friday, after seeing so many teams that are utterly destroyed by it. Electivire has become VERY underrated. I don't think the problem is Electivire, I think the problem is the players.

First of all, people trying to use all physical Electivire are doomed to fail because they're walled by so many of the common physical walls. Another problem I see that's common in opposing Electivires is that my opponent is often trying to get a boost right in the beginning of the match. That is NOT where Electivire shines. Electivire is actually a premier pokemon to bring out late game, thanks to all of that great type coverage and Motor Drive.

I really don't know why Electivire is on so many peoples lists and the biggest flop. No, you're not going to sweep someone 6-0 after 1 motor drive. But is anything able to do that? Not even Garchomp has a very high chance of immediatly sweeping without quite a bit of hax.

I also don't see why Tauros is on this list. I don't ever remember anyone expecting great things from it in D/P. Anger Point was thought to be a cool ability, but that's about it.

Rhyperior could probably go on the list, but again, it's a lot like Electivire from my point of view. I mean, yes, Rhyperior was really overhyped. Is it a bad pokemon? Not at all. Solid Rock is still a formidable ability, and it's attack is sky high, with Swords Dance to boost it more. Not to mention STAB on both Earthquake and Stone Edge, two of the most used attacks in all of D/P. Really, Rhyperior's speed and weakness to common special attacking types are all that stop this thing from being utterly broken.

 

[Ambitions]

I also don't see why Tauros is on this list. I don't ever remember anyone expecting great things from it in D/P. Anger Point was thought to be a cool ability, but that's about it.

People voted/picked Tauros because it was on the threat list for D/P in the beginning (or so I'm told) and they actually used it then. I honestly don't agree as well.

Mix Electivire owns with out a doubt. But it just fell from grace so much compared to the high regard people used to hold it at. I still use it my self.

 

[Kohaxx]

Curious how Tentacruel got in on the gains list? I rarely see him, he has many uses but I never thought he was that amazing of a spinner/defensive type.

 

[Bologo]

Rhyperior could probably go on the list, but again, it's a lot like Electivire from my point of view. I mean, yes, Rhyperior was really overhyped. Is it a bad pokemon? Not at all. Solid Rock is still a formidable ability, and it's attack is sky high, with Swords Dance to boost it more. Not to mention STAB on both Earthquake and Stone Edge, two of the most used attacks in all of D/P. Really, Rhyperior's speed and weakness to common special attacking types are all that stop this thing from being utterly broken.

Ehh, it also has Rock Polish to raise that poor speed. I'm really not sure why people don't use this guy. I've tried him out before and he was a deadly little fucker.

Seriously, a Life Orb Rhyperior with Rock Polish can OHKO things like a little ass. Even with just a Life Orb, it has 492 attack if it maxes out with a neutral nature. That's the same as a base 100 with a Choice item on and a +attacking nature.

Even then, it can run Rock Polish & Swords Dance on the same set and still have the near unresisted combo of Rock/Ground (Bronzong's the only one who resists it in the OU tier). If it can pull those things off (takes a lot of skill), it's pretty much guaranteed a sweep unless the opponent's been packing a lot of Scarfers.

I don't think Rhyperior really flopped all that much, it's just that the newer players tend to stray away from the guy because he takes a lot more skill to use than other pokemon, because he is very much the "high-risk, high-reward" type.

 

[TVboyCanti]

Pokemon that rose above DP's expectations --> Mamoswine

Biggest DP dissapointment --> Azelf
2nd: Togekiss

Mamoswine was supposed to be BL, but Mamoswines high attack allows it to throw Ice Shards and the dragons that dominate DP, making it very popular. Additionally, Stallrein totally came out of left field and made Hail teams viable, thanks to DragonTamer.


Blisseys rise to complete domination of Pokemons special relm ended Azelfs Nasty Plot for conquest. It's now nowhere to be seen.

Don't know what happened to Togekiss, but it went from being on everyones team to being nowhere.

 

[comray004]

Got destroyed when PBR gave away free ones. Now my 3 days of Hitmonchan-Machamp breeding then Machamp-Evire breeding look foolish. All the n00bs are running rampant with a pokemon that should be much less used, because they don't know jack diddly about breeding.

Every UU- Benefited due to the over use of OU's.

Is actually being harnessed. Many a games have I sufferd to this thngs DAM AIR SLASH FLINCHES!!!!!

 

[phalanx]

togekiss starts to come into play we might see a re-rise of dragonite over garchomp?