shell bell v leftovers

i never ever see shell bell as an option for team building, so i thought i would take the time to maybe make people think about using it instead of leftovers as in some cases it is a better choice.
leftovers - 6% no matter what on most pokemon this option is probaby the best (pokemon that sub and use 3-4 moves to set up) and on walls unless it can use toxic orb or black sludge. obviously as leftovers is unaffected by what damage you do and how much you set up the use will of course be easier

shell bell - instantly dismissed and maybe it shouldnt, i currently run a few pokemon with this object that are there to sweep and have had success especially on pokemon that do not need the set up time to do this damage, i use it on metagross and the sheer power of its attacks make it heal for more then leftovers more often then not (sometimes upwards to 25%) its mainly a modest 7-15% on the majority of pokemon, i might also try this on porygon-z due to its high damage output as well.

in brief, i feel shell bell is a forgotten item overshadowed by the leftovers and is wrongly ignored in sweeper circles (would you rather have your 6% every turn or 15% from that huge tri attack or meteor mash) and this item can and will save your sweepers backside from an untimely death due to burn or poison (12% remember leftovers cant cover this) which could be the differance between a kill or 2 extra or a loss.

thoughts? no flames i just want to throw this into the open as i feel that currently the item is neglected in some cases it is better then leftovers
 
Shell Bell is never considered as an item just because it is too unreliable. When you look at it there are two items that completely outclass it:

1. Leftovers. Leftovers can be used on walls or attackers and does not change the ammount. It will give you the steady supply of HP (6%) each turn. Shell Bell has two drawbacks. 1.) It can only heal so much, and if you aren't doing major damage then it will heal less the leftovers. And 2.) Only heavy attacking Pokemon could use Shell Bell. Which leads me into:

2. Life Orb. Since only attacking Pokemon can use Shell Bell, why are they not using Life Orb or a choice item? The more power is better then the unsteady amount of health SB brings in.

If Shell Bell was not so easy to get around, like bringing in a pokemon that resists your attack meaninh shell bell isnt doing any damage, them maybe it would be feasible. Maybe like have it auto heal 6% HP when you land a normal hit, 0% on a NVE hit, and 12% on a SE hit.
 
What is the point of using Shell Bell on a sweeper? Why not give it Life Orb or a choice item? especially if its primary goal is to sweep.
 
A Shell Bell heals 1/8 of the damage you do. For a Metagross with no HP EV's to match Leftover Recovery you have to do about 125 Damage. Now, that's just to match Leftovers. I agree that with great attacking stats you can do that much damage, but its' wayyyy less consistent, because there's not that many times a match where you can do that much damage with a single attack. I mean, to match leftovers recovery a sweeper has to do about half its health in damage. Low HP, high damaging ones could use the Shell Bell but realistically it isn't consistent enough.
 
maybe in some cases life orb is better, but i feel personally that if you are going to run leftovers on a pokemon that sweeps (metagross) its a far better option, i put it on metagross to try it out and its big hits have been a blessing

also remember i am talking about where it recommends leftovers, and maybe taking shell bell instead of that option
 
maybe in some cases life orb is better, but i feel personally that if you are going to run leftovers on a pokemon that sweeps (metagross) its a far better option, i put it on metagross to try it out and its big hits have been a blessing

also remember i am talking about where it recommends leftovers, and maybe taking shell bell instead of that option
I think the only time where this is going to realistically come into play is on an AgiliGross, where you're going to probably be running Leftovers to heal up damage during your set up so if anything survives an attack it doesn't end you immediately. The problem with this is that you're fairly bulky and have to assume you're doing well over 125 damage with every attack, no attack going wasted, in order to maintain the same recovery you'd get from Leftovers.

Is that realistic? Sort of, there's very little you can really switch in while an Agiligross has set itself up. Is it going to be as or more consistent than Leftovers all or most of the time? Probably not.
 

TheMaskedNitpicker

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Shell Bell can act as a replacement for Leftovers on one of your attackers if Item Clause is in effect.

As far as the Shell Bell vs. Leftovers argument goes, I think it depends largely on the particular Pokémon. I had a Shell Bell on my sweeper Starmie in Advance and it seemed to work out OK, but that was a long time ago and I'd have to do some math before deciding whether I would do it again. An Expert Belt might serve it better.
 
Leftovers work during turns you are recovering health in other ways, such as with Recover or Roost, and more importantly, on switches. Every Pokemon switches in before it attacks, so Leftovers is one pace ahead there.
 

Jumpman16

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As far as the Shell Bell vs. Leftovers argument goes, I think it depends largely on the particular Pokémon. I had a Shell Bell on my sweeper Starmie in Advance and it seemed to work out OK, but that was a long time ago and I'd have to do some math before deciding whether I would do it again. An Expert Belt might serve it better.

You'd use Expert Belt of Wise Glasses in a heartbeat, Starmie had virtually no options in Advance.

Anyway, logic dictates why Shell Bell isn't a "good" item. If you aren't using an attacking move, you're probably losing out on HP you would have gained if you used Leftovers. And if you're switching in, that's double the Leftovers recovery you're missing if you're taking at least resisted SR damage or actual active damage.

So logic further dictates that you want to be using an attacking move most of the time with your Shell Bell pokemon, to make use of the item and validate its use over Leftovers or a power-boosting item. If you're something that doesn't really like having to deal direct damage all the time, Shell Bell is detrimental to how you're supposed to be used (Blissey, Gyarados, whatever). If you're a sweeper, even one with four moves, you by definition want to deal the most damage possible which an attack-boosting item suits better. There's really not much more to it that than.
 
Shell Bell is just too unreliable! Like Kijin said, if you don't deal at least 125 damage, you don't gain more life than Leftovers. Plus, you lose the additional power of the hold items in the choice items and life orb for that small % chance that you'll gain a couple extra points of life per turn. It's just not worth it.
 
Since it's already mentioned that sweepers would prefer life orb or a choice item over shell bell, maybe we can consider bulky sweepers that use leftovers instead. Then maybe Bulkydos and BulkyMetagross with shell bell wont look like such a bad idea.
 

Chou Toshio

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I think I have to agree that in most cases Shell Bell just seems inferior.

Speedy Sweeper = Life Orb/Choice/other offensive item
Support/Bulk = Leftovers

These are mostly generalizations but:

Dealing the damage to outdo leftovers recovery is not an easy task, so that basically cuts out all pokemon who do lots of switching and use non-attacking moves from the potential users.

Speedy Sweepers also have no business using this item. The main reason I say this is because a speedy sweeper's life is dependant on its moving first and killing the opponent before getting killed. If it is doing it's job, it's not going to be taking hits, and therefore, shed shell would be pointless. It doesn't matter how hard it's hitting and how much shed shell would be giving back if your pokemon is at 100% health already. On such pokemon, obviously leftovers < Life Orb/Choice Item for the same reason.

So basically this leaves: Bulky Sweepers who do not need to set up to deal a lot of Damage.

Gyara is no good imo, as it does lots of switching in (to abuse intimdate), and also sets up DDs, Taunts, or other moves in most cases. If Gyara is going the bulky route, it can't afford to lose the leftovers recovery it would get after switching in or when it uses support moves.

Potential users that come to mind are things like Metagross, Tyranitar, Rhyperior, Heatran or offensive Swampert-- pokemon who just attack, and attack, and dish out some nice damage, but depend on heavy defense rather than speed to allow them to keep attacking. Shell Bell could be potentially nice with that style of play. The question would be if the difference in damage output between non-boosted attacks and item boosted attacks against significant targets would be more or less valuable than the health shell bell returns.

I think we'd need to look at a lot of calcs, but overall a damage boosting item just seems more stable.
 
The problem with Shell Bell is that anything that hits hard enough to make Shell Bell worth using is better off using an attack boosting item instead.

Its bad on Metagross, as the bulkier versions are better off with leftovers and the offensive ones should use Life Orb or Choice Band.

Its even worse on Porygon-Z. Its not going to survive anything, so healing is almost useless.
 
Its even worse on Porygon-Z. Its not going to survive anything, so healing is almost useless.
The main point of it's use on Porygon-Z or other fragile sweepers is to heal Sandstorm damage and the occasional burn I think, so it's not entirely useless in that sense. However the main problem of recoil damage comes when you have Life Orb as well and are losing 16% each turn in Sand, which Shell Bell obviously won't affect because you can't have both items....

That said, I wonder if it would help on pokemon who use recoil moves (although they'd probably prefer a Choice Band, Shell Bell could be an interesting alternative).

I still won't be putting Shell Bell over any items on my team though....
 
I think shell bell if much better in 2v2 where it heals from all damage, aka eq/surf so you hit multiple targets and heal from each hit, if i remember correctly...
 

IggyBot

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I'll just post what I said in your RMT.

IggyBot said:
In normal, competitave play, reliability is better than the chance of something. Why do you think most players use Adaptability rather than Download on Porygon-Z? Download is the stronger boost, but it only works in certain situations. This is just like Leftovers vs Shell Bell. You're better off recieving a steady, 6% recovery than trying to get in a Agility, and then hoping you can recover back more HP the next turn.
 
I think shell bell if much better in 2v2 where it heals from all damage, aka eq/surf so you hit multiple targets and heal from each hit, if i remember correctly...

Not to mention it can hit its own partner as well. Shell Bell does heal the holder even if the "damage" you do to its partner heals it, right?
 
Also, you mentioned that a shell bell can make up more than that 12 percent from burn, but Metagross's attack would be halved, when burned so in that situation leftovers would still probably be the best option.
 
I agree with the anti-Shell bell sentiments here in the main; there is only one poke I can think of where the 'Life-Orb for Sweeper, Lefties for bulk' argument wouldn't fit, and that is Staraptor because two of its best STAB moves are recoil ones (Brave Bird/Double Edge).

But despite its good attack stat, non-Choiced Staraptor is too easily walled (so it would be difficult to deal out the necessary damage), and Leftovers is better with Roost sets and helps reduce Stealth Rock damage as you switch in. Plus its HP is its best defensive stat and is actually quite reasonable, so min-HP leftovers recovery is 17 HP and each attack would have to deal 140 damage to match that recovery with Shell Bell.
 

obi

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There was an old bug on Netbattle (now fixed) that allowed you to heal yourself with Shell Bell even after you fainted, so Shell Bell Explosion was an old strategy there. :toast:
 

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