Stealth Rock in the OU Metagame

[Sylver]

I recall someone saying that the best spinners take neutral damage at best vs SR. Just wondering, does Donphan (and I guess, to a lesser extent, Claydol) count as a decent spinner?

I could see a rise in Bellyzard usage *smiles at a monoflying MementoLuff team, forced to use Delibird* and the rise of other hazardous environmental effects like TSS (mind you, without SR, that genre is basically dead).

 

[Kimi3013]

I don't know if anyone's said this, but what about removing stealth rocks ability to be super effected? Things that get hit for 50% are now viable, but it's still in the game giving you the damage for the easy 2HKO or 1HKO.

 

[Automatic]

The dumbest thing brought to this topic was this Earthquake nonsense.

You spoke too soon.

I don't know if anyone's said this, but what about removing stealth rocks ability to be super effected? Things that get hit for 50% are now viable, but it's still in the game giving you the damage for the easy 2HKO or 1HKO.

 

[Chimera]

without EQ, Empoleon could be OU as a super garchomp counter :D

And that was just the move used for the sake of example. Only the 4x weak pokes are really affected enough to have Stealth Rock be the primary reason for not being able to compete at the OU level, so that's Charizard, Articuno, Moltres. Single weaknesses can be dealt with by Wish support. And I don't think a move that helps against the likes of Salamence, Gyarados, and Yanmega should be banned for those 3.

And despit being insulted, the point I was trying to make was that I'm not even entirely sure what we're trying to see in testing Stealth Rock. And I'm asking for a noncondescending answer, which I assume other users could provide here. The best I have come up with is that the introduction of these SR weak pokes would somehow balance the meta into that perfect state that everyone seems to believe exists.

 

[sanjay120]

Cloyster (Icicle Spear >> Yachechomp), Armaldo (bulky attacker + support), Vespiquen (she's a great wall actually), Regice (another good wall), and possibly Torkoal (kind of a good wall?) would see more use. They're all decent Pokemon (except Torkaol), they're just SR weak.

Regardless of what happens in OU, this will definately be banned in NU. Their only spinner is Delibird.

 

[ANinyMouse]

From what I can tell, there are actually very few Rock-types in OU or even BL:

OU: Tyranitar
BL: Aerodactyl, Regirock, Rhyperior, Rampardos

That's 5 out of 20 rock-type pokemon. So, the vast majority of rock-type damage being dealt in the typical OU match is from:

A) Tyranitar
B) non-STAB rock attacks
C) stealth rock

Stealth Rock fills (one could argue, rather unfairly) a small void in the current OU metagame in the form of omnipresent "rock-type" damage. Not all types are great offensively, but Rock is. Rock, however, is a terrible defensive type, so not many rock types can overcome this to regularly compete in OU/BL. Even so, this is NOT perceived as a problem that needs to be "fixed."

Nor is it all that relevant... but I found it interesting.

And despit being [butthurt], the point I was trying to make was that I'm not even entirely sure what we're trying to see in testing Stealth Rock. And I'm asking for a noncondescending answer, which I assume other users could provide here. The best I have come up with is that the introduction of these SR weak pokes would somehow balance the meta into that perfect state that everyone seems to believe exists.

More or less, you've answered your own question. There is nothing universally agreed upon as "wrong" with today's OU, but there are some things that are a concern:

A) Garchomp taking 2 pokemon to "counter."
B) Deoxys-S
C) The perceived over centralization of Stealth Rock

Option "C" is unprecedented. People woke up one day and thought, "hey, you know what? why is it fair that certain pokemon types take 50% damage upon switching in? And this takes ONE TURN to set up? And there is no worthwhile method for eliminating it? Wat." I think it's a legitimate concern.

Game Freak hasn't exactly proven to us that they are architects of an overarching metagame -- the banning of certain nonsensical legendaries goes some way to prove this. Neither has Nintendo, which continues to have truly odd rules for any tournament they sponsor.

WE are the architects of a more perfect, more balanced metagame. We boast the largest variety in top-level competition. If we the people decide that Stealth Rock may or may not be fair and needs TESTING, then why argue? Smogon has never been a proponent of banning things without testing! Hell, there's even talk of reinstating OHKO moves or the evil of Double Team!

Anything goes until it's proven to suck.

 

[Chimera]

You didn't need to edit the quote like that >.>

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Icicle Spear won't break Yachechomp, unfortunately, but all the other answers are solid as to why SR makes Garchomp harder to handle.

 

[Mr.E]

Icicle Spear is, obviously, for Subchomp. Yachechomp won't be using Substitute.

Hell, there's even talk of reinstating OHKO moves or the evil of Double Team!

No there isn't.

 

[Chimera]

Mr.E, read the policy review forum. The higher ups have threads about stealth rock, OHKO moves, and Double Team. It's always good to know what may become standard play. Though I'm not keen on the idea of a small number of people deciding what is and is not standard.

 

[Chou Toshio]

without EQ, Empoleon could be OU as a super garchomp counter :D

I'm going to make a guess and say that if EQ was banned (lol) Garchomp would be running Brick Break.

 

[Darkartisan]

Stealth rock makes the metagame balanced imo...

 

[Tleilax]

Stealth rock makes the metagame balanced imo...

Would you mind backing that up? because it my humble opinion, making entire types incredibly inviable except in very specific roles, usually leads, is not a balanced metagame. If SR is the only thing keeping certain Pokemon in check, then that speaks volumes about how powerful it is.

 

[Ranevski]

I think that the big problem with SR _is_ that it's type discriminant. Short of turning back time I don't really see a way to fix this outside of banning it. I think the best thing that could possibly happen from here on out is that a new SR is introduced of a different type (preferably many more).

 

[Fatality]

Hmm... It does wreck a lot of Pokes... Torkoal (mentioned) is another Spinner that is unusable because of this

 

[nitnit]

So then Stealth Ice can completely cripple the major dragons and a few others? Adding in many more types of stealth rock would exacerbate the problem.

 

[Ranevski]

Not really imo. While I think it would be much better that it was never invented in the first place, if it's going to be allowed I think the best thing would be to introduce Stealth Ice and such.

The main reason SR is used by most teams is that by chopping 6% or more off EVERY poke, you are putting them into a much more relaxed/guaranteed 2HK or even OHK range by the rest of your team. Additionally it destroys all focus sashers. Spikes was nowhere near this powerful mainly because it is avoidable by a very large amount of pokemon. No-one gets around SR, everything is going to take get hit.

The beef most people have with SR is that it ruins some pokemon more than others, most often as a side effect. Most SR users wouldn't stop using it if it no longer did 50% to charizard/articuno/etc. That effect is just a very nice bonus. At the very least if there was a Stealth Ice then there would be less Stealth Rock, which would make Charizard and Articuno at least about twice as more viable as they are now. If there was a Stealth of every type then the chances of runing into a team that uses the one that shuts down your pokes lessens more so. If there were 15 Stealth <whatever>'s in the game then while Charizard and Articuno would get hurt badly by some, it would at least not seem like the metagame is being biased against them. Every poke out there (bar 2 I think) have weaknesses. They'd ALL be suspectable to coming up against a team that has the Stealth that they don't like.

Again I'm not saying Stealth Ice is a great solution, but the more Stealth <whatevers>'s there are, the less Stealth Rocks there will be. This is garunteed to lessen SR's monopoly, the only question is by how much.

Also as much as I love DNite, for the greater good I've gotta say Stealth Ice alone would be, if nothing more, a great Garchomp deterrence.

 

[Boingo]

From what I can tell, there are actually very few Rock-types in OU or even BL:

OU: Tyranitar
BL: Aerodactyl, Regirock, Rhyperior, Rampardos

That's 5 out of 20 rock-type pokemon. So, the vast majority of rock-type damage being dealt in the typical OU match is from:

A) Tyranitar
B) non-STAB rock attacks
C) stealth rock

Stealth Rock fills (one could argue, rather unfairly) a small void in the current OU metagame in the form of omnipresent "rock-type" damage. Not all types are great offensively, but Rock is. Rock, however, is a terrible defensive type, so not many rock types can overcome this to regularly compete in OU/BL. Even so, this is NOT perceived as a problem that needs to be "fixed."

IMO the lack of OU Rock Types doesn't justify putting a "permanent rock move" on the field, which only takes one turn to set up and do 25 or 50% of damage to the unluckiest Pokémon (without even having to attack, mind you).

Maybe another reason for SR still being accepted, is the fact that nobody really cares about the types it screws up (Fire, Bug, Ice)? If there was "Stealth Ice/Grass", or (like I mentioned before) if Spikes would do Ground-Type Damage, would that still be allowed? Just some food for thought here.

 

[sanjay120]

And with this Stealth Ice you ruin Dragonite, Garchomp, Gliscor, and Salamence, and cripple Hippowdon, Donphan, Roserade, and Tangrowth.

Icicle Spear is, obviously, for Subchomp. Yachechomp won't be using Substitute.

Right I knew it was one of those >_>

 

[Stellar]

Icicle Spear can also be used for YacheChomp. It destroys Yache on the first hit, and then the successive hits hit for 4x damage.

I don't think the community would go so far as creating a move and implementing it just to regulate a single Pokemon. The metagame is stabilized through a series of bans and unbans, not by inventing solutions.

 

[sanjay120]

But you'd need Ice Shard on the same set. A full Icicle Spear coming from a Cloyster that survives SD Outrage doesn't OHKO.

 

[Captain Falcon]

Torkoal (mentioned) is another Spinner that is unusable because of this

But if stealth rock was banned, there would almost certainly be a sharp decline in the number of pokémon running rapid spin, as it is the most damaging and easily set up residual threat. While banning stealth rock may make charizard and friends more useable, it would be at the cost of less donphan/forretress/claydol etc.

 

[sanjay120]

But you could still use Donphan/Forretress/Claydol. Donphan has a few toys Hippowdon doesn't, Forretress still has Spikes and TSpikes, and Claydol is a great UU wall.

 

[BlueCookies]

But if stealth rock was banned, there would almost certainly be a sharp decline in the number of pokémon running rapid spin, as it is the most damaging and easily set up residual threat. While banning stealth rock may make charizard and friends more useable, it would be at the cost of less donphan/forretress/claydol etc.

Donphan and Claydol are almost never seen in OU so it's not as big of a deal for them, and Forretress usage will not go down, the main reason he's used isn't rapid spin, it's for setting up Toxic Spikes or Regular Spikes really well.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

This is why I use a Rapid Spinner on every team I use.