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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
Aside from the mention of the propossal, which I think honestly needs to be implemented as soon as possible (Obi's proposal with reference to BL instead of UU) I decided to bring back up the summary of the discussion.
I'd like to suggest for the end of the month when we have our first set of statistics for UU that all of the pokemon listed from Very Low - Average be included into UU for testing (Shedinja - Miltank) as its really been quite long that we've discussed them.
Also I'd like to ask if Togetic could be included into the group of Widely Accepted NFEs, as its varies in stats and plays quite differently to its FE counterpart Togekiss, and doesnt really seem like it could cause much trouble in UU.
I added Kabutops to the Borderline UU group and removed Jynx since we haven't really had any complaints about it.
I'd like to suggest for the end of the month when we have our first set of statistics for UU that all of the pokemon listed from Very Low - Average be included into UU for testing (Shedinja - Miltank) as its really been quite long that we've discussed them.
Also I'd like to ask if Togetic could be included into the group of Widely Accepted NFEs, as its varies in stats and plays quite differently to its FE counterpart Togekiss, and doesnt really seem like it could cause much trouble in UU.
Well as long as Aerodactyl isn't included in the top 75% of pokemon in terms of usage which would keep it out of OU then yes my idea includes Aerodactyl.
Zangoose...it's basically a Tauros clone/Pinsir clone that has slightly higher attack, slightly less speed, and terrible defenses. I honestly don't see how Zangoose ended to be BL. Can someone please explain how Zangoose stands out besides its Immunity ability?
I think it needs to be tested in UU.
Note: If you look at the base stats of Zangoose and Pinsir at Smogon or Serebii, you can tell that Pinsir was built to take slightly more hits than Zangoose.
I think it needs to be tested in UU.
Note: If you look at the base stats of Zangoose and Pinsir at Smogon or Serebii, you can tell that Pinsir was built to take slightly more hits than Zangoose.
Swords Dance. The ability to break through common Steel walls with Close Combat. I feel that more opinions may be needed but as for right now I'm leaning towards leaving it in BL.
I would like to ask if Tangela could also be included into the group of Widely Accepted NFE's. Like Magmar and Electabuzz it has a 10 point higher base speed that differentiates itself from it's evolution Tangrowth.
It gives people another choice of a defensive grass other than Leafeon and sports Knock Off (and actually isn't offenseless like Shuckle).
I really don’t think that is a valid argument for Zangoose being BL as Scyther’s Quick Attack is almost as powerful and boasts superior speed and defenses. The problem with Quick Attack alongside Swords Dance is that Zangoose is actually losing some sweeping potential. You must either forfeit your powerful STAB attack or lose vital coverage against Ghosts or Steel and Rock types. Either way Zangoose is much more easily walled, and there is still the problem of actually switching in and getting a free Swords Dance.
If Zangoose were allowed in UU it would probably be a superb late game cleaner, but in general I don’t think it will be as devastating as some people are thinking it would be. It has issues with the omnipresent Hitmontop for one, both Intimidate and Technician versions for separate reasons.
Well i'm not sure about Zangoose. It does have some issues with it's defenses, average speed and type coverage if it uses Quick Attack but i'm finding it hard pressed to find something that can actually switch in after it actually uses Swords Dance aside from Rotom Hitmontop or Froslass.
All right, after reading the last 5 pages of discussion on Obi's idea of bringing all BL pokemon down to UU, which I disagree with, I am proposing that instead of bring BL pokemon down to UU, we create a seperate BL ladder and bring all the UU pokemon up. Then, we can objectively seperate the pokemon who are "outclassed" in this BL metagame and redefine them as UU. This way, we can still define UU by usage without destroying the current UU environment.
Btw, if this is really retarded and I am missing something important, please don't run all over me. It's just my suggestion.
Btw, if this is really retarded and I am missing something important, please don't run all over me. It's just my suggestion.
As for Zangoose, I don't think he would be too powerful, as most sweepers are faster than him anyway and he is really frail. Tangela, as much as I love him, is not really distinct from Tangrowth. A defensive Tangela would be a Tangrowth clone with Energy Ball instead of Power Whip, same EVs, same moves, same role. I could see him fitting in, but I don't want to start a trend of NFEs with similar movesets, but slightly different stat placement being moved to UU.
It would of been nice of you to bring up Magmar and Electabuzz. They fit the same exact criteria as Tangela and yet only Tangela is excluded from UU play.
Tangela doesn't have to invest as much speed as Tangrowth does to use the Sunny Day set, which is alot more viable in UU due to the fact that auto-weather is banned. Tangela can make better use out of Sub Seeding and Endeavor than Tangrowth. You cannot exclude a pokemon that meets the same requirements as those who are allowed;it's grounds for Electabuzz and Magmar to also be excluded from the UU metagame.
NFE's are a tricky subject but I feel Tangela is more unique than alot of them.
Your argument is pretty pointless. I'm pretty undecided as to wheter Zangoose should be UU or not but your post would surely not sway me to thinking it should be BL.
Flail/Reversal users have problems in every tier and UU is no exception with Stealth Rock and priority moves on every team. Quick Attack also means Zangoose loses its ability to hit Ghosts or its ability to hit hard with STAB Return as Swords Dance and Close Combat are mandatory, albeit a choiced set where Swords Dance will not be used.
I'm going to recommend BL for Zangoose. If you look at Zangoose's stats, they're basically the same as Cacturne's, trading Special Attack (and thus diversity) for Cacturne's greatest drawback: Speed. So in terms of pure physical sweeping, he's at roughly Cacturne's level but with much more Speed.
Now let's stop and try to think of a Zangoose counter! Say it's running no priority but Shadow Claw instead. Intimidate / Mach Punch Hitmontop could work, right? An Adamant Swords Dance Return after Intimidate with Life Orb does 80% minimum to Max HP / Max Defense Hitmontop, who does only 43 - 52% to Zangoose with Mach Punch. Thus Hitmontop is kind of a counter, sort of. If he switches in on Swords Dance. Technician Hitmontop or Hitmontop not running max/max defenses will not survive an SD Return.
Steelix (252 HP / 0 Def Impish) has a 75% chance of being OHKOed by an Adamant Life Orb Zangoose +2 Close Combat, 94% minimum damage. Steelix can never be considered a "counter". Not like he was the best most obvious choice, but people were throwing "walled by steelix" around.
Solrock is OHKO'd by a Swords Dance Shadow Claw. No burning for him!
So, uh, can anyone name a "counter" to Zangoose? Even the faster Pokémon like Persian have trouble OHKOing him.
Rotom can switch in and act as a martyr, burning it in exchange for most of his health.
Now let's stop and try to think of a Zangoose counter! Say it's running no priority but Shadow Claw instead. Intimidate / Mach Punch Hitmontop could work, right? An Adamant Swords Dance Return after Intimidate with Life Orb does 80% minimum to Max HP / Max Defense Hitmontop, who does only 43 - 52% to Zangoose with Mach Punch. Thus Hitmontop is kind of a counter, sort of. If he switches in on Swords Dance. Technician Hitmontop or Hitmontop not running max/max defenses will not survive an SD Return.
Steelix (252 HP / 0 Def Impish) has a 75% chance of being OHKOed by an Adamant Life Orb Zangoose +2 Close Combat, 94% minimum damage. Steelix can never be considered a "counter". Not like he was the best most obvious choice, but people were throwing "walled by steelix" around.
Solrock is OHKO'd by a Swords Dance Shadow Claw. No burning for him!
So, uh, can anyone name a "counter" to Zangoose? Even the faster Pokémon like Persian have trouble OHKOing him.
Rotom can switch in and act as a martyr, burning it in exchange for most of his health.
Can Sableye take Zangoose? The best Zangoose can do is neutral Shadow Claw, which only has 70 BP against it. It can cripple with WoW, Knock Off its Life Orb, etc. Being forced to run Sableye to counter Zangoose is pretty overcentralizing though.
The calcs are not very promising. Adamant LO Shadow Claw still 2HKOs after a SD on max/max Sableye. It can stop Jolly versions and CB sets but is not a full counter.
Probably the biggest thing holding Zangoose back is that it can't have Quick Attack if it goes for Return/CC/Shadow Claw/SD which is needed for coverage. I'm on the fence, its defenses are mediocre,though better than some, and it isn't THAT fast, but it can sweep many teams.
The calcs are not very promising. Adamant LO Shadow Claw still 2HKOs after a SD on max/max Sableye. It can stop Jolly versions and CB sets but is not a full counter.
Probably the biggest thing holding Zangoose back is that it can't have Quick Attack if it goes for Return/CC/Shadow Claw/SD which is needed for coverage. I'm on the fence, its defenses are mediocre,though better than some, and it isn't THAT fast, but it can sweep many teams.
Way to go at getting the BP of staple moves like Shadow Claw right (hint: 70 + HCR). I'll rerun your calcs to be sure, hopefully you ran 70 BP rather than 40. Shadow Claw is a guaranteed 2HKO on max HP max defense Sableye. Standard set takes 71-84%, so with Stealth Rock and any other damage there's a chance of a straight up OHKO. Combie that with the 1 in 8 crit chance and WoW's 75% accuracy and the fact that you basically have to sacrifice Sableye just to CRIPPLE Zangoose (hint: Sableye sucks so much he has trouble 2HKOing), you have basically 2/3rds of a counter, whom otherwise is a terrible Pokémon. Of course I'm sure the "standard set" will probably change with Zangoose.
Just because Zangoose has to decide between Shadow Claw which lets it 2HKO everything in UU and Quick Attack doesn't make it UU material. I'm surprised so many people are on the fence about somethnig with pretty much no counters at all.
Edit: 1,234th post.
Just because Zangoose has to decide between Shadow Claw which lets it 2HKO everything in UU and Quick Attack doesn't make it UU material. I'm surprised so many people are on the fence about somethnig with pretty much no counters at all.
Edit: 1,234th post.
Does Nidoking have any counters? What about Primeape? Hitmonchan? It has been said many times before: just because a Pokemon has no 100% counter does not necessarily mean it is broken.
Allow me to put the Zangoose issue in another light. How many Pokemon in UU can SD/LO Zangoose set up on, never mind switch in to?
No, no, but those Pokémon have no counters due to multiple sets. Zangoose has one set with no counters that's not Choice Banded... If he gets an SD, not a lot can switch in and OHKO without being OHKOed.
I understand the "no 100% counter doesn't mean broken" argument, because I said that about Garchomp for awhile...
I understand the "no 100% counter doesn't mean broken" argument, because I said that about Garchomp for awhile...
Claydol for one, even though admittedly it's setup fodder for pretty much anything. It'd probably work like Scyther does, utilizing free switch-ins and threatening for a revenge kill in order to get a SD in. Mid to late game, with a stealth rock down, short of priority moves it'd be pretty frickin hard to stop this thing.