A proposition to consider.

[ΩDonut]

How would this work with Substitute?

I tried to think of a good way to implement that one before I posted the idea, but what I eventually settled on was that either a) the Substitute always appears first, blocking the hit or b) the Substitute takes a little time to make, so the Sub user is always naked to attacks. Substituting on a speed tie isn't a great idea anyway, so I don't think I'll be getting too many complaints either way. Better ideas are welcome.

There are a couple moves that this might cause confusion for, like Sleep Talk, Crush Grip, and Endeavor.

You'll have to give me more specific examples for Sleep Talk. As for Crush Grip, it'll be based on the target's HP at the time of the attack, and with Endeavor it would be based on the user's. Nothing too complex about that.

Hopefully the shortness of my post in this wall of text threads will not discourage people from taking it seriously.

Mine's even shorter, and look at the seriousness it's getting. :P

EDIT: Seriously, though, I prefer conciseness to walls of words, and I think they grab more attention than walls of words. With the exception of Jumpman's, of course.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Before performing any action, perform it three times. In cases whether an effect may or may not occur (e.g. missing or critical hit) take the majority. By this, I mean that in order to miss an attack with 70% accuracy, you would need to miss 2 out of the 3 simulated attacks. In order to critical hit, you would need to critical hit twice out of the three simulated attacks. Etc. When it comes to calculating damage, calculate it by taking the average of all simulated damage. E.g. if you attacked with a move with 70% accuracy, and two of the three simulated attacks hit, then find damage by taking the average of these two damage values. Etc. It's a quite simple idea, it does not arbitrarily rewrite the rules of pokemon as, say, removing critical hits would (sure-fire path to lots of shouting) or removing some critical hits and not others (even more sure-fire path to even more shouting). It, in effect, non-arbitrarily increases the odds of an effect with >50% chance of occuring, and non-arbitrarily decreases the odds of an effect with < 50% chance of occuring.

I'd like to suggest a simplified variant on this idea, inspired by the RNG of the game Fire Emblem. In Fire Emblem, the RNG, when making hit checks, rolls two numbers and averages them. As a result, the chances of a 70% hitrate increase substantially, as it would have to roll a miss twice in a row in order to miss- the hitrate of a 70% hitrate move would effectively be 91%, 80% moves up to 96%, and 90% to 99%. It also has the side effect of decreasing the effect of Evasion on the game, as evasion bonuses from Snow Cloak and Sand Veil drop significantly on moves with less than 90% accuracy.

This is effectively exactly the same as the one suggested by Nate- in both cases, the RNG would have to effectively miss twice. However, this secondary method requires less checks, which would simplify matters a great deal.

 

[Athrosu]

Interesting topic.

The thing is that appeal in team building essentially says that "The better team must always win", is a similar attitude in Poker where "The better hand always win". Of course, unlike Poker, there is much thought to be put into each team - and executing strategies.

What? This is pretty much totally wrong. As long as both teams are well-made, actions taken during battle matter significantly more than what Pokemon are in your team.

I believe that luck is something gamefreak put into the game simply to increase the variety within the battle. Without luck, matches are essentially over the second the battle starts - much like in Chess where people know the "best moves" based on the situations and, without a luck factor, people put in a lot of thought into the moves and try to predict what the opponent to do. In this sense, the only "luck factor" in chess is your opponent - which isn't really "luck" at all.

Also untrue. Prediction is a mixture of luck and skill, and the prime variable in most games.

Hence, we see that gamefreak wanted the game to be a more instinctive, much like the bullshit they advertise in the anime - this is done through luck, where the best planned strategy does not always win, and there is always this factor. Don't say people don't play by instinct - because many good players are unable to explain clearly why they think certain things are "uber" or not - there is a huge factor of "instinct" within the game.

Hence the removal of luck essentially limits choices within the battling appeal of the game.

Instinct isn't luck. It's simply a combination of guess and gut feeling, taking into account predictions based on your knowledge and skill and personal quirks. Luck's a factor, but it's a WHOLE lot more than just luck.

There is an easy solution to all of this - to increase the appeal of "team buliding" and battling at the same time. Much like one round in Poker does not decide the game, make each match best out of 3, with counterpicking with "sideboards". This is an idea that was suggested multiple times in the past through one way or another. By having more matches, the "better team builder" wins overall, and not only that, but increases the appeal of team building by offering greater variety through sideboards. It also adds to a level of mindgames that the battlers will want, and critical hits suddenly matter less unless you are unlucky enough to get haxed a few times in a row. But then, it's "Pokemon".

Hence, I believe multiple matches, best out of 3 or 5 or whatever, is the best thing to do rather than modify game mechanics. We modify our playing format, not the game itself. That is how the metagame is, no? We modify the format we play the game to be the most competitive.

That's got little to do with team building. It simply adds on a few extra levels of mindgames.

 

[boltscore]

On the idea of speed ties OmegaDonut's way, using Substitute on a speed tie may just become one of the "bad" moves. I can't think of that great of examples, but I guess it would be like using Earthquake on Bronzong to see if it has Levitate or not.

The RNG has indeed frustrated me, and certainly made the difference in some battles. Occasionally it does more damage than the opponent has health left afterwards; but fails to KO do the RNG getting a lower number.

Hypnosis, Focus Blast and that group have a 9% chance of missing twice in a row. So, in two attacks with Hypnosis, you're more likely to hit at least once than you are in one attack with, say, Rock Slide. I had one match where I used Focus Blast, IIRC, 5 times, yet it never hit. In that same battle, my opponent said that he had been flinched six times in a row the other day. Even with a 60% flinch rate (Togekiss' Air Slash or Jirachi's Zen Headbutt, for example), that is still an incredibly low likelihood.

Nate certainly has an interesting idea; however, it does not seem to be the metagame Aldaron is thinking of. Luck is still an incredible part of that concept.

In this form of metagame, it would seem that the "The better team must always win" is certainly very true. Of course, terrible battling strategy could overcome that idea that it is "good." It makes it seem like "gimmick" sets are, in almost all cases, not as good as they could be. Smeargle may be even less useful than it is now.

Sniper is an ability that could be confusing. Sure, it would still work with Drapion due to all the high CH ratio moves it possesses, but the other Pokemon with Sniper are not so lucky. Kingdra and Octillery only really have Focus Energy. Would Pokemon with Sniper get an automatic, say, 6.25% CH ratio and maybe get 2.5x as much power from a critical hit? In that case, would Drapion's moves (Night Slash, Cross Poison, etc.) have 6.25+12.5=18.75% CH ratio? Or would Sniper be eliminated altogether? If it wasn't, a Scope Lens may not be wanted to be banned. And if it was, those Pokemon with it have rather good other abilities.

I like Tangerine's last idea ^_^

 

[Tangerine]

What? This is pretty much totally wrong. As long as both teams are well-made, actions taken during battle matter significantly more than what Pokemon are in your team.

My underlying assumption is that both players will make the "best" move each time around. The best move in each scenario will always exist, of course, if not for risk/reward.

Also untrue. Prediction is a mixture of luck and skill, and the prime variable in most games.

What is untrue? The only statement I have made is

" I believe that luck is something gamefreak put into the game simply to increase the variety within the battle."

How does you, telling me what prediction is, help show that this statement is "untrue"?

Instinct isn't luck. It's simply a combination of guess and gut feeling, taking into account predictions based on your knowledge and skill and personal quirks. Luck's a factor, but it's a WHOLE lot more than just luck.

Oh, and "instinct is a combination of guess and gut feeling" - really great definition, considering most people say gut feeling *is* instinct! You really don't do much here with your arguments considering you are just saying "Instinct is a combination of instinct and instinct"

And... that's pretty much why I used instinct - thanks for emphasizing my point, lol. Without luck in Pokemon, I wouldn't have used "instinct" to describe how it is played and used another word instead

That's got little to do with team building. It simply adds on a few extra levels of mindgames.

By having more matches, the "better team builder" wins overall, and not only that, but increases the appeal of team building by offering greater variety through sideboards

Yeah okay,if this is "little" then we are just at disagreements based on opinions and there isn't much to talk about here.... lol

 

[Jumpman16]

EDIT: Seriously, though, I prefer conciseness to walls of words, and I think they grab more attention than walls of words. With the exception of Jumpman's, of course.

lol

Anyway, let me first state that I think I would excel at a game that relies less upon luck. Let me also state that I still love theorymon, which a lot of the suggestions have been so far. That said, though, any changes "we" would make would mean that we are not really playing pokemon anymore, which is why I can't really throw all my support behind the sentiment contained here. I almost think I'd rather play "real" pokemon, with the reasonable and few restrictions we've made, than play a game that valiantly but ultimately failingly tried to mold luck (second focus blast always hitting, etc.).

 

[Master of the Six Kings]

Add Tri Attack to number 4. That move ticks me off in so many ways. I always get burned on my Gut-less physical attacker. And frozen on everything else.

Anyway, i like most ideas stated here, to co-exsist with the regular way of battling. I know I've left after a few bad matches because it seems like "lady luck" just wasn't making the cut. Introducing another alternative seems like a very beneficail action to me. And I'm pretty sure that the asshole abilities can be replaced with other abilities. It isn't that hard.

 

[phalanx]

Tri attack has a 20% chance to do an effect, whether shoddy is working it out as 20% for all or 20% for each though...
the amount of times i have lost to luck (hell i lost about 5 battles because of one piece of hax in each.. this week), but the ammount of wins or 6-0's because of a miss evens it out.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I don't really care about whether or not we're playing "Pokemon" anymore or not. Pokemon is a pretty fucked game. I don't see the problem in fixing it in order to increase the enjoyment of players. I agree almost 100% with everything you said.

 

[lilyhollow]

I don't see this as a problem that could not be fixed by making matches Best of 3 as Tangerine said. It would be interesting either way and probably an improvement, but that seems like a better solution from where I'm standing.

 

[Aldaron]

Guys, I updated the main post with 2 more factors.

Thanks Great Sage for the emphasis on the disclaimer.

I'll respond to the posts in this thread now:

I'm personally not a fan of modifying a game when a simulation is the goal but I must admit this would be a very interesting modified server to play on. All of them are worth discussing I think (abilities like Static and Flame Body might be included with Cute Charm / Poison Heal as well). The one I think most worth discussing is critical hits / damage ranges (they fall in the same category to me). Damage ranges to me are quite annoying as there are times when I see a move doing a certain damage X and it should 2HKO but then the damage next turn is quite less. I'd just prefer for the damage to be one number every time as I think this would make the game more consistent. I like Pokemon but I've always felt this was a poorly designed game. The game lacks many elements of consistency such as damage variation, critical hits, and 100% accurate moves missing due to Veil/Cloak or Bright Powder. It would be interesting to see a modified metagame where more consistency was introduced.

Yea, I think I need to emphasize that I in no way want this to have anything to do with the official simulation of this game. We have our simulation server, and that and this are entirely separate. It looks like you agree with at least the concept behind the idea, provided that this remains a side project, so I'll use your post to emphasize that point: This will be a modified server, and one independent from official simulation.

Since you desire to keep total control over this debate, this post will be a criticism of the idea that these are issues and your plan to correct them. If potential addition of ideas is discussable, then surely potential subtraction of issues should be as well.

People tend to be against significantly altering the mechanics of a Pokemon simulator. Anyway, there's nothing "fucking bullshit" about missing twice in a row with a move like Focus Blast with its lovely 70% accuracy. It's the risk you take in using a move with a 70% accuracy, and there's nothing really improbable or "hax" about missing twice in a row. You're throwing the word "expected" around a whole bunch, but I'd venture to say that your problem is that the problem is with your expectations rather than the game if you really think there needs to be a RULE against Hypnosis missing twice in a row. There's balance issues, too - there's a definite if complicated balance between a move's power, accuracy, effects, and PP, and if you screw with accuracy or effects, you destroy that balance.

Besides, doing things according to "expectations" is totally arbitrary. The moment you (for example) take status off one move because you don't think it's "expected" but leave it on another move which has the same chance of applying the same status because you think it's "expected" there (Flamethrower and Fire Blast, for instance, have the same chance to burn on hit), you should realize that any hope of doing things in an orderly and balanced fashion has completely collapsed. As long as you base the entire debate on "expectations" alone, it's doomed to fail - you need hard rules to invent a new metagame, not wishy-washy guidelines or opinions.

Critical hits are an issue that draws discussion time and time again and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, and Sand Veil/Snow Cloak are worth discussing as well considering how popular Evasion Clause is, but the rest of your issues, I think, are crippled by the fundamental flaws I outlined above.

Um...lol. I don't think you read my post or something. I've already stated that this would be an arbitrary endeavor. I already know this will be more guided by intuition than hard defined lines. Is there anything else you would like to "tell" me?

Ugh, this is what so many of us "competitive battlers" want but I really don't think it can happen to this much extent Aldaron. You've written a very well thought out proposition, but I really think some things can't be done.

But, I really agree with you on Critical hits, what an excellent idea! Also what you talked about having some moves miss when they were "expected" to hit. (Like Toxic, or Sleep Powder missing twice in a row is DEFINITELY "fucking bullshit" It seriously seems like that 2.25% chance of Toxic missing twice in a row happends alot more than it should. Same with Hypnosis). But making all moves 100% accuracy is just stupid, as it ruins some moves purpose (like fireblast and flamethrower).

I don't tihnk the damage range should be tampered with, christ, is that truely even a problem? Yes it might do 46% one turn then 55% then next turn, isn't that "expected"?

Sandviel and Snow Cloak is indeed "fucking bullshit". What an asshole ability lol (omg that made me laugh pretty hard Aldaron hehe)

But in the end I dont think this well ever happen...

Why can't it happen? I'm allowed to make a server on Shoddy and change the mechanics lol. Again, I need to emphasize how this project's goal is to take what we like about Pokemon, and improve what we don't. Since we are changing Pokemon, I know we aren't playing Pokemon anymore, so it can't be official or anything. Since this can't be official, it simply falls on us to actually implement it.

1. Crits - So about the increase of a crit rate everytime they use a certain move in a row, what if it's a Calm Mind Clefable who decides to shuffle Cosmic Power and Softboiled? It would still be problematic because the increasing crit rate will be reseted every time... or did I miss something here?

2. I agree, although pokemon like Froslass who rely on it with paralysis support would lose an effective strategy. I'm not sure I like that.

3. Damage Range - I think it's perfectly fine right now. I don't see how doing 85-100 is "annoying".. it only makes the gaming tougher when you need to decide if you wanna invest a few more EVs to ensure a kill. I think it makes the game more interesting.

4. Fire Blast and Blizzard are different from Thunder, only having 10% chance to cause a burn / freeze. Personally I really hate that stuff, a random freeze can pretty much ruin an entire game. Don't forget pokemon with Serene Grace, like Togekiss who still won't mind the 20% burn rate from Flamethrower, although I'm not sure people actually consider Flamethrower for that. But regardless, I'm in favor of removing the secondary effects from every move with a 10% chance. 20% and above leans more towards "strategy" than "hax" imo.

5. Hypnosis missing 3 times in a row is a real bitch. I wouldn't mind having it increased by 15% or 20% each turn after it misses, seems more fair to me. It's even more frustrating when you think of it as "oh great, if I used Sheer Cold 3 times now in a row, I would hit all 3".

6. Don't forget abilities like Static who are even more important in a game that revolves so much about speed. I believe these should be left alone, as 30% is already a respectable chance. Don't forget the enemy can avoid this by not using a contact move. It could also be cleverly used by the opponent to switch into a contant move without any risk to cause a poisoning / paralysis.

7. That is the most problematic issue imo, because it can be used as a perfectly viable strategy by numerous pokes (ParaFusion IE). As for paralysis, I suggest making it somewhat like the Hypnosis missing thing, only the opposite - if you can't move from a paralysis the 1st turn, the paralysis chance should decrease the 2nd turn, reseted everytime you're fully paralysed.

Good post.

Thanks for posting what I wanted, lol. As for the clarification on the first point, I meant succssive moves that you use, not that your opponent uses. So if you use Flamethrower 3 times in a row, then it will activate the CH chance.

2 quick things I think should be clarified:

Stat increase/decrease moves - would moves like Shadow Ball, Psychic, Energy Ball etc.. be treated in the same way as 10% status inducing moves?

Serene Grace - If a serene grace user, Blissey for example, uses Flamethrower, would the same rule apply?

Good point, and I think these are separate from the status ones, so Ill edit them in shortly. As for the Serene Grace issue, I believe I'll have to open that up for discussion, as I am not sure what we could do with that. Serene Grace strategies are often "expected," so I would like people to keep that in mind.

As moves have their abilities/accuracy reduced and increased, will there be an adjustment to base power as well? If Stone Edge moves up to 100% accuracy, I think it should lose its high critical hit rate; especially in an environment where critical hits are horribly difficult to pull off this move seems a bit overpowered.

What will happen to non-Machamp, non-Gravity Dynamicpunch/Zap Canon? I know these aren't horribly popular choices anyway, but I have lost to a series of non-Machamp Dynamicpunches and let me tell you: it sucks.

Serene Grace should have the exact same effect it does now (e.g. Zen Headbutt has 60% chance to flinch, flamethrower has 20% chance to burn). You mention intent a lot in the OP, and using Serene Grace - Even on Jirachi imo - demonstrates purposefully going for a low-probability event.

I'm assuming hax items (quick claw, focus band) will be outright banned.

Yea, I'd just outright hax items. As for the lowering and increasing of the general power of moves, I believe we'd just leave that up to intuition. Since this project is already steeped in arbitrary decisions, I see no reason why we can't trust the intuition of various experienced battlers.

Serene Grace abusers typically have moves with a high percent of effects, so these would fall under the "expected". Abilities such as Poison Point, Static, and Cute Charm should all be expected as well, so I see no point in getting rid of them.

I think OmegaDonut's idea would work quite well.

As for the critical hits, I hate it when I get critical hit, but how will we deal with stat boosts? What happens when you accidentally allow Suicune 2 Calm Minds too many? Sometimes, you can get lucky and critical hit them for the kill, stopping a sweep. Suicune is not hard to set up, so it isn't like I am just that bad. Could we increase the critical hit ratio when the opponent has stat boosts, much like Punishment's increase in power? Of course, it would have to be the same attacking stat as the opponent's boosts, but it could work.

I think Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower should have their effect percentage reduced. It is extremely annoying when you switch into Cresselia with Suicune or maybe Heatran, only to be frozen for 10 turns. This has happened far too often, and I think moves with 10% should just have 0% chance of effects.

I think the damage range is perfectly fine. It may seem "too large" but when you think about it it makes since. Let's say it would do 30-33% if it was neutral, but if it was super effective it would do 60-66%, so of course this area will increase. A SD boost will give you the same results, and is essentially hitting the opposite pokemon for SE as long as the move is neutral.

Other than that this sounds like a great idea, and I would love to play on a server like that.

Again, thanks for posting what I wanted. For your CH concern, I stated that my check here would be to initiate the ch percentage if a move was used consecutively, to help CH those Cosmic Power or other defensive boosting Pokemon.

I believe that luck is something gamefreak put into the game simply to increase the variety within the battle. Without luck, matches are essentially over the second the battle starts - much like in Chess where people know the "best moves" based on the situations and, without a luck factor, people put in a lot of thought into the moves and try to predict what the opponent to do. In this sense, the only "luck factor" in chess is your opponent - which isn't really "luck" at all.

You told me on irc that you are assuming equal skill, so I can't respond the way I wanted to lol.

The proposals are interesting, and its great to think about a less "haxy" game. Though, from amount of people that claimed they wanted shoddy to simulate the game as much as possible (from the restricted legend IVs poll), I'd wonder how people would react to this... I just learn to deal with the consequences of hax because it isn't terribly that it drastically affects the game and occasionally it will benefit you as well, so those kinda even each other out sort of

Again, this would be a modded server in no way related to the official server or the official Smogon server. There really should beno politics here, as if you don't like the idea, it doesn't matter, as this will never be forced upon you. Like I said before, what I want to do is take what is competitive and appealing in Pokemon, the preparation team building part, and maximize the appeal of the battling part myself and with others in order to create my ideal metagame.

I'd like to suggest a simplified variant on this idea, inspired by the RNG of the game Fire Emblem. In Fire Emblem, the RNG, when making hit checks, rolls two numbers and averages them. As a result, the chances of a 70% hitrate increase substantially, as it would have to roll a miss twice in a row in order to miss- the hitrate of a 70% hitrate move would effectively be 91%, 80% moves up to 96%, and 90% to 99%. It also has the side effect of decreasing the effect of Evasion on the game, as evasion bonuses from Snow Cloak and Sand Veil drop significantly on moves with less than 90% accuracy.

This is effectively exactly the same as the one suggested by Nate- in both cases, the RNG would have to effectively miss twice. However, this secondary method requires less checks, which would simplify matters a great deal.

Isn't this just changing the accuracy to 91%? I think making each iteration of a 70% accurate move 91% accurate is too much. But again, I'm running this on intuition, so we would have to see and figure out for ourselves what would be best for this metagame.

Add Tri Attack to number 4. That move ticks me off in so many ways. I always get burned on my Gut-less physical attacker. And frozen on everything else.

Anyway, i like most ideas stated here, to co-exsist with the regular way of battling. I know I've left after a few bad matches because it seems like "lady luck" just wasn't making the cut. Introducing another alternative seems like a very beneficail action to me. And I'm pretty sure that the asshole abilities can be replaced with other abilities. It isn't that hard.

I'm not sure I like the idea of adding Tri-Attack to that, only because the status on that move is "expected." Still, it's up for debate.

Alright, so among the people who get the point of this thread (lol), there seems to be most contention with the damage range topic, so I'm opening the floor for anyone who wants to discuss his thoughts on this topic.

 

[mien]

After being haxed to death in 2 smogon tours in a row i cannot agree with you more. I hope every day that those solutions of making the metagame less luck based will happen.
I don't see what's the ''fun'' of High risk/High reward strategies give. Honestly if i won by Luck while i knew my opponent was better i don't feel good at all.

Every statement (with exception of the 100% acc thing) has my full support

 

[RaikouLover]

Aldaron, you are my hero. I agree with EVERYTHING you said except for 1 thing, move accuracy. It MUST be kept consistent because it does have a serious team building aspect in making you select fire blast over flamethrower, etc. Other than that:

critical hits = fucking bullshit
freeze hax on ice beam = fucking bullshit
toxic missing? seriosly, the thing has 85% accuracy... how can you miss poisoning something.... fucking bullshit

Originally Posted by Fat OmegaDonut
This is what I'd like to do about speed ties.

Have both Pokemon execute their moves at the same time, and ignore the consequences of damage and side effects until the end of the turn. For example, let's say identical speed Gengar and Azelf are facing each other. Azelf Psychics and Gengar uses Hypnosis. Gengar gets KO'd by Psychic, but Hypnosis hits and Azelf is left sleeping at the end of the turn.

OmegaDonut has always been my hero!

I hate the way that hax always turns up on threatening pokemon also. I have an LOL log I always wanted to share with people of me getting swept 6-0 by a Yanmega lead:

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Erik-Testing sent out Infernape (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
Pokefan362 sent out Yanmega (lvl 100 Yanmega ?).
Pokefan362: Hi
wdro has entered the room.
wdro: don't kill your favourite pokemon!
Infernape used Fake Out.
Yanmega lost 13% of its health.
Yanmega flinched!
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
matty has entered the room.
Pokefan362: ahhh!
Yanmega used Air Slash.
It's super effective!
Infernape lost 100% of its health.
Infernape hung on using its Focus Sash!
Infernape flinched!
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
Erik-Testing: COME ON
Pokefan362: So lucky
Erik-Testing: im sick of that shit
Erik-Testing switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Yanmega used Bug Buzz.
Suicune lost 34% of its health.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
Yanmega used Hypnosis.
Suicune fell asleep!
Suicune is fast asleep!
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
Yanmega used Bug Buzz.
Suicune lost 37% of its health.
Suicune is fast asleep!
Suicune used Sleep Talk.
Suicune used Rest.
But it failed!
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
Yanmega used Bug Buzz.
Suicune lost 35% of its health.
Suicune is fast asleep!
Suicune used Sleep Talk.
Suicune used Rest.
But it failed!
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
Erik-Testing: oh fuck me
Pokefan362: You are unlucky
Erik-Testing: no shit im unlucky
Pokefan362: Yanmega is my best lead yet
wdro: you are yanmega weak too ;)
Erik-Testing: of course its a good lead! it shoulda been dead already!
Pokefan362: Yep!
Erik-Testing switched in Infernape (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
Yanmega used Air Slash.
Yanmega's attack missed!
Yanmega's speed won't go higher!
---
Infernape used Fake Out.
Yanmega lost 13% of its health.
Yanmega flinched!
Yanmega's speed won't go higher!
---
Yanmega used Bug Buzz.
It's not very effective...
Infernape lost 0% of its health.
Erik-Testing's Infernape fainted.
Yanmega's speed won't go higher!
---
wdro: use lava jet!
Erik-Testing: the whole point of infernape is to beat leads like that
Erik-Testing: which he wins if he doesnt get HAXED
Pokefan362: Lava Jet?
Erik-Testing switched in Dugtrio (lvl 100 Dugtrio ?).
Pokefan362: I wish there was
wdro: i have to use erik's lead is better
wdro: say*
wdro: not use
Pokefan362: Then Heatran would not have to be Scarfed
Yanmega used Bug Buzz.
A critical hit!
Dugtrio lost 100% of its health.
Erik-Testing's Dugtrio fainted.
Yanmega's speed won't go higher!
---
Erik-Testing: are you kidding me
Pokefan362: Dint need the crit but oh well
Erik-Testing: bug buzz doesnt OHKO dugtrio with HP EVs!
Erik-Testing: EVER
Pokefan362: AHHH!
Pokefan362: Sorry Sorry Sorry
wdro: ya, otherwise he would have sent it in
matty: WHY ARE WE YELLING!!?!?!
wdro: wouldn't*
Erik-Testing switched in Hitmontop (lvl 100 Hitmontop ?).
Hitmontop's intimidate cut Yanmega's attack!
matty: here erik, i got something for you
Pokefan362: *begs for forgiveness*
Yanmega used Air Slash.
It's super effective!
Hitmontop lost 99% of its health.
Hitmontop flinched!
Yanmega's speed won't go higher!
---
Erik-Testing: a' pofj'a;lskb,n; frla/.,sf dm'.a,f d
matty: HAHA
Erik-Testing: ;alskj df;laskd f;askdjf ;lasj df;laskfj d;lasfdj
Pokefan362: *begs again*
Erik-Testing: ;laskj df;laskf; dlaks; fdlaskf d;las fd;laskf d;lasfj d
wdro: oh, not your game :(
Yanmega used Hidden Power.
Hitmontop lost 0% of its health.
Erik-Testing's Hitmontop fainted.
Yanmega's speed won't go higher!
---
Erik-Testing: better all in 1 game then another
matty: chances are stone edge would have missed >_X
Erik-Testing switched in Yanmega (lvl 100 Yanmega ?).
Erik-Testing: well i selected it twice
Yanmega used Air Slash.
It's super effective!
Yanmega lost 100% of its health.
Yanmega hung on using its Focus Sash!
Yanmega flinched!
Yanmega's speed won't go higher!
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
---
matty: HAHAHA
Erik-Testing: ............
Pokefan362: SO VERY SORRY!!!!!!!
Erik-Testing: ........
Erik-Testing: why do you hate me?
matty: im totally going to log this
Erik-Testing: please do
Erik-Testing: i am too
Pokefan362: I am too
Erik-Testing: im going to finish it just to save it
Yanmega used Bug Buzz.
It's not very effective...
Yanmega lost 0% of its health.
Erik-Testing's Yanmega fainted.
Yanmega's speed won't go higher!
---
Erik-Testing switched in Deoxys-e (lvl 100 Deoxys-e).
Deoxys-e is exerting its pressure!
matty: scarfed?! x_x
Yanmega used Bug Buzz.
It's super effective!
Deoxys-e lost 100% of its health.
Erik-Testing's Deoxys-e fainted.
Yanmega's speed won't go higher!
---
matty: haha
Erik-Testing switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Yanmega used Bug Buzz.
Suicune lost 19% of its health.
Erik-Testing's Suicune fainted.
Pokefan362 wins!
Erik-Testing: shoulda been dead on turn 2
Pokefan362: Yup

And Scarfchomp lossess...

Tmoney8 switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Pointed stones dug into Garchomp.
Garchomp lost 6% of its health.
Erik-Testing switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Garchomp used Outrage.
Garchomp went on a rampage!
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
Heatran lost 65% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Heatran's leftovers restored its health a little!
Heatran restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Outrage.
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 35% of its health.
Heatran used Earth Power.
Garchomp lost 37% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Heatran's leftovers restored its health a little!
Heatran restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Outrage.
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Erik-Testing's Heatran fainted.
Garchomp's rampage ended.
Garchomp became confused!
The sandstorm rages.
---
Erik-Testing switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Garchomp is confused!
Garchomp used Outrage.
Garchomp went on a rampage!
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 38% of its health.
Erik-Testing's Garchomp fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Erik-Testing: that was gay
Erik-Testing switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Garchomp is confused!
Garchomp used Outrage.
Celebi lost 37% of its health.
Erik-Testing's Celebi fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Erik-Testing switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Garchomp is confused!
Garchomp used Outrage.
A critical hit!
Suicune lost 75% of its health.
Suicune used Calm Mind.
Suicune's special attack was raised.
Suicune's special defence was raised.
Garchomp's rampage ended.
The sandstorm rages.
Suicune is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Suicune lost 6% of its health.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp snapped out of confusion!
Garchomp used Outrage.
Garchomp went on a rampage!
Suicune lost 25% of its health.
Erik-Testing's Suicune fainted.
Tmoney8 wins!
Erik-Testing: wow
Tmoney8: lol gg
Erik-Testing: ive never seen so much hax
Tmoney8: yeai know bull
Erik-Testing: im scarfed also
Erik-Testing: so you won a 50/50 speed tie
Tmoney8: what ur chomp
Erik-Testing: yea
Tmoney8: dam
Erik-Testing: and you didnt hurt urself once
Erik-Testing: and got a crit
Tmoney8: i know i was waiting
Tmoney8 has left the room.

So anyway, this shit has happened to me hundreds of times and I have dozens of logs saved, but you get the idea.

 

[Master of the Six Kings]

For Tri-Attack, I wouldn't want to drop the rate to 10% or anything, but I'd like to make sure that the 20 percent is an overall, and maybe drop it to 15%. because i swear, every other time I'm statused by it 9maybe I'm just unlucky :( ) And I don't think status is 100% expected. Status "expected" moves as I see them, are moves sued almost exclusevley for their status (or int hunder's case higher base damage). Other then Hyper Voice, Tria attack si one of the only Special normal moves, and is used for STAB Special attacks more then status. That's just my two cents.

 

[Syberia]

Alright, so among the people who get the point of this thread (lol), there seems to be most contention with the damage range topic, so I'm opening the floor for anyone who wants to discuss his thoughts on this topic.

The simple solution, to me at least, would be to make all moves always deal average damage. That way you'd always know what you're EVing either to kill or survive, and none of this funny "kills X most of the time" or "lives X most of the time."

On a whole, this sounds like it might be pretty fun. Though I wonder what would be Garchomp's fate with the removal of Sand Veil?

 

[Nate]

I'm going to assume that as Aldaron has not mentioned my proposition he counts it under the heading of "not getting the point of this thread."

I'd like to emphasize that since I am looking simply to reduce probability's influence and not remove it altogether, most changes will be admittedly arbitrary. That's really fine for me, as these admittedly arbitrary changes exist simply to achieve our non-arbitrary goal: reducing the effect of probability.

My method will reduce probability's influence, and yet not remove it altogether, by decreasing the likelihood of unlikely (defined as < 50% chance of occurrence) effects. Furthermore, it represents a non-arbitrary method of achieving your non-arbitrary goal. The problems with your method of approaching your goal are numerous, so I will lay stuff out until dinner time.

To begin with, your approach is completely arbitrary. You recognize this, and are okay with it. That said, it will doom your proposition to failure on a number of fronts. Regardless of your good intentions, people will disagree with you on what should be reduced, how it will be reduced, to what level it will be reduced, etc. Without a strict set of rules (such as would be granted by adopting a mathematical changing of all probabilities), consensus will be impossible. Furthermore, the arbitrary nature of your proposition leads into a second problem: failure to predict all possible scenarios and plan your probability reduction appropriately. A mathematical approach to the problem adjusts all probabilities. An individualized approach yields gaping holes. Taking your focus punch example: you propose that if you miss focus punch once, you are guaranteed to hit on your second consecutive focus punch. One could still miss on 2 out of 3 focus punches, also an unlikely event. In a scenario where a single focus punch may make or break the game, a player may still be vulnerable to "hax" and lose despite a 70% chance of victory. I could keep going on in this vein, but my point should be clear enough by now: in addition to the inevitable bitching caused by a scenario-by-scenario consensus approach, it also is incapable of covering every possible situation.

As far as requiring two consecutive of a probability instead of two out of the three, its the same concept. I chose to recommend a 2 out of 3 method in that if an event is chosen to occur once but not twice (and therefore does not occur) when it comes to damage values one would still be taking arbitrarily. Of course, damage calcs could be run independently and also twice, so this problem is easily avoided and your suggestion completely valid. Your method would create a slightly more drastic reduction of probabilities than mine would, but tweaking of numbers does not really concern me so much.

 

[Bourbon]

I agree with everything in here. I am tired of losing to 6% chances on players who are obviously worse than me.

For example: my taunt heatran would have killed a 45% health last poke Bliss except fire blast misses three times, thanks to leftovers it survives the last hit with 14%, then I miss it again. I send on my Toxic zapdos because I was out of options and toxic misses twice.

 

[Pneuma]

This is not the way to combat chance. You don't just make concessions here and there on things that bugged you once.
You must go all or nothing, otherwise you might as well just play the original game.
These can be divided by their rarity of chance. As a general rule, small chances should be removed, large chances should be magnified, and 50-50s need a very good tertia quid solution.

The first, chances less than ~30%:
1.) Critical Hits - remove them all.
2.) Sand Veil / Snow Cloak causing a miss - remove them.
3.) The damage range - 100%-100%.
4.) Status inflicted from moves not "expected" to inflict status - remove the chance.
6.) Abilities like Poison Point or Cute Charm - remove them.
8.) Hax items and their plethora of potential effects - ban them.
7.) The effects of... Paralysis... Flinching - leave the speed loss, that's enough for paralysis. Flinching should either be removed wholly or... well, I don't know about this one. Togekiss can get 60% on it, it's very tricky.

A 50-50 chance:
9.) Speed ties - both at the same time.
7*) The effects of... Confusion... Attraction - I have no good remedy to this offhand. Possibly remove them outright.

A large chance, greater than 70%:
5.) "Expected" moves missing, sometimes twice in a row - double check the rolls, now 70% is 91% and so on.


If you think removing things like Confusion or Criticals is too much, step back and realize that this is not pokemon we're talking about. This is our own world, different as it needs to be.

You can have a "sure hand" in poker and lose. You can fold from the bluff of a superior opponent, in this case a switch. Your pokemonA could have a 100% accurate, 100% damage move that is guaranteed to kill the opponent's pokemonB and you might still switch on the off-chance THEY can absorb the hit with pokemonC and be at an upper hand.

In this light, team-building is a million times more important and each mistake you make is magnified as bright as the sun. Just my two cents.

 

[Kira]

I do not think it is fair to remove full paralysis and confusion as many UU Pokemon can use that as a viable strategy.

Flinch can be removed on everything but Serene Grace Pokemon as then the Flinch chance is expected.

 

[Aldaron]

I'm ignoring nate's and pneuma's posts for now as they explicitly ignore my desire to discuss the issues at hand and the issue of the damage range. However I every intention of getting back to nate as I am very interested in his method, so please don't take this as an insult ^_^

Pneuma however obviously does not understand what I have said here, and a statement like "going all or nothing" is so incredibly stupid I don't even know how to respond.

Anyway, Syberia has mentioned always sticking to average damage. I also like this idea, but I kind of want to see what people make of it. Opinions?

 

[Tracker]

Average damage would be nice, but then the metagame would have too many "magic numbers". We know that a 269 SpA non-stabbed Ice beam always OHKO minimum HP Garchomp, for example. If we always have average damage, it will widen the gap between experienced and new players. Experienced players will run >252 Atk EVs on their Garchomp because the extra Atk won't make a difference on common threats. Actually, though, this might be a good thing. I think I just undermined my point 0.o.

 

[SnK-arcbound]

1.) Critical Hits - Probably the most complained about issue. This is easy to fix, at least for me. You remove critical hits from all normal moves, and leave them at the 12.5% chance they have for moves like Night Slash and Stone Edge, because this critical hit is "expected" (Super Luck and Focus Energy increase the CH chance of all moves to the typical value). Critical hits also have the special aspect of ignoring defense boosts and attack drops, so you could argue they are a viable tool against something like Cosmic Power Deoxys-S or Cosmic Power Clefable. Again, this issue is easily fixed. Give all moves their 6.25% chance of a CH back when they use the same move <insert arbitrary number> times in a row, as now the critical hit is again "expected."

2.) Sand Veil / Snow Cloak causing a miss - Another commonly complained about issue. Again an easy fix: remove these two asshole abilities. No further comment here lol.

3.) The damage range - I really think such a large range of damage is so pointless. Doing between 85 - 100% is really annoying. I would either always have it do average damage, or reduce the range, maybe like 90-95% or something. Obviously testing and discussion would allow us to come to a more acceptable (and again, admittedly arbitrary) range.

4.) Status inflicted from moves not "expected" to inflict status - The 100% accurate moves, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and the like have most likely infuriated you in the past due to a Burn on the Tyranitar you switched in on Heatran, a Paralysis on the Mismagius you switched in on Blissey, or a freeze on the Metagross you switched in on Cresselia. Is it really necessary for these moves to have their "special" effects? When building a team, do you actually consider their ability to Burn / Paralyze / Freeze the opponent on turn one? I don't think so. The same thing done for CHes can be done here too: If the move is used <insert arbitrary number> times in a row, it gets its chance back, as now you are "expecting" to inflict that status. For moves like Fire Blast, Thunder and Blizzard, I believe the status is somewhat "expected" and should therefore remain, but that's obviously arguable. Moves like Lava Plume are definitely expected to inflict the status, so I also feel they should remain.

This category is a good example of the inability to remove probability altogether in Pokemon; however, we can certainly work to reduce its overall influence in the game.

5.) "Expected" moves missing, sometimes twice in a row - Listen, I am a damned good competitive Pokemon player and I know all about the risk you take when you choose to use a move like Hypnosis or Focus Blast, or the risk you take when choosing Fire Blast over Flamethrower. Patronize me all you want about choosing to complain about this, but I'll venture to guess that most of the good players on this site will agree with me that missing with Focus Blast twice in a row on Tyranitar is "fucking bullshit," or missing with Fire Blast twice in a row on Celebi is "fucking bullshit." I initially had a much more controversial idea of increasing the accuracy of all the expected moves by some common percentage just to increase the "expected" factor, but I have a different idea now: if the expected move misses the first turn, it will always hit the second turn, or will have a significantly increased Accuracy. After the turn the move hits, Accuracy resets back to the original value.

6.) Abilities like Poison Point or Cute Charm - These aren't seen too often in the standard game and therefore have not caused significant controversy. I guess the issue with abilities these like would be whether or not the effect is "expected." If it is expected I would increase the chance of them activating. If it isn't expected, I'd like to know if removing them altogether is desired or reducing their probability of activating is desired.

7.) The effects of Confusion, Paralysis, Attraction and Flinching - I really have no idea how to do anything with this. All are based in probablity, but all are significant parts of the game. We could remove Flinching from stuff like Ice Fang and Fire Fang (comon, how often has that Ice Fang flinch from Gyarados on your Celebi pissed you off, or that Fire Fang flinch from Garchomp on Bronzong pissed you off?), but keep it on stuff like Waterfall (though this is seriously arguable, as I know I consider it to be bullshit everytime Waterfall flinches me). We could also change Paralysis to not fully paralyze anymore, as the drop in Speed is a significant enough status, and more geared towards strategy than probability. Other than that I'm not really sure what to do here.

8.) Hax items and their plethora of potential effects - Items like Brightpowder, Scope Lens, King's Rock and the like all serve to increase the effect of probability. My experience with most players tells me that they fall underneath two categories for these items: 1.) Indifferent 2.) Hate them a lot. I myself am pretty indifferent, since they have rarely affected the outcome of a battle, but to maintain consistency I would recommend banning them altogether.

9.) Speed ties - I'm surprised I forgot about this one, especially since I was complaining about losing a Speed-tie to Deoxys-S just the other day :P Anyway, Omegadonut described a solution that I and others like a lot, so here is his quote:

First I'd like to say that I disagree that Poker has very little luck attributed to it...

1.) I agree that CH add a very unnessicary amount of luck to the game. It makes the "damage range" from 45%-50% to 45%-100%, that is just luck playing and doesn't require skill.

2.) Veils have a very high probability of working, which is why I'm tentative for removing them, but I believe that no risk/reward chance effects like those are just placed because they can't think of anything better it could know.

3.) I like the damage range, lower it a little bit, but I believe that keeping the damage range in because of its reliability and frequency would be a good idea. This keeps people from just spamming buttons until things die, 49%, 49%, switch, etc.

4.) As far as I can see 10% chance moves on things that already have differences (flamethrower FB) just seem like ways of fucking the opponent over for no apparent reason.

5.) You choose FB over flamethrower for a reason, if it misses three times in a row, oh well. This only applies to when you have a choice, unlike things like hypnosis compared to spore, since not everything can learn both, so I'll reserve my judgement for just ice beam/blizzard etc. You know what a miss means, you still choose to risk it, a hit first turn means you won't be using it again until after you switch out, thus removing any negative to having more power.

6.) These are all controllable, and you know that the opponent will have them (unlike a moveset), don't risk poison point but going physical. High probability moves sacrafice in some way (the same as ice beam/blizzard), lower BP etc. to get that high chance of an effect, that is risk/reward and a skilled player knows what to maximize in order to maximize their chance of winning (aka personal preference).

7.) These I stick with the other low probability items (crits, FB ice beam etc.). However things like dynamic punch, etc. have an extremely high chance of happening, disreguarding them would hurt things that are hardly arbitrary. 50/50 is in no way a low chance, however moves that have a low probability of making these occur shouldn't happen.

8.) "hax items" are low (10% in most cases) and should follow the other low probability things.

9.) Following my logic, speed ties should be allowed, however, this isn't rolling a coin of choice, like staying in while confused. This is a guessing game of who's faster and who will win the roll, having both act "at the same time" would be the most "skilled" way to take care of it.

Completely removing all chance makes best actions the only "smart" action. After making a team a computer can play games for people just by making this best action. That is not what anyone wants, removing all probability is retarded. Removing probability that was added in and in now way effects the moves should be removed (the difference between lava plume/air slash and thunderbolt/psybeam).

 

[Pimplup]

I agree with everything in the OP. I think the solution for the damage formula, is to have a test battle, and record all the damages of the same move over and over, and the least amount of damage that happens the most would be the floor of the damage. Likewise for the highest damage dealt.

If this post demonstrated that I don't know about damage, sorry, I would love to be corrected:).

My only problem is, what do you give Chomp instead of Sand Veil? Intimidate? No, too game breaking... Sand Stream? IDK, if we change anything it might make it to game changing. I think what we do, is negate the effects of Sand Veil with some sort of coding. Same goes to Snow Cloak, we just negate it's effects in the coding from the beginning. Anyways, great post, I'll watch out for this for some time...

 

[OvaRoa]

What I've been thinking: If luck were to be totally eliminated, what would happen with moves that have less than 100% accuracy? What would you do with them?

 

[Slice n Dice]

Aldaron does have an attitude problem and is ALWAYS wrong