Election 2008, United States

Who would you vote for if the presidential race is held now?

  • Barack Obama

    Votes: 415 72.4%
  • John McCain

    Votes: 130 22.7%
  • Other (Please specify)

    Votes: 28 4.9%

  • Total voters
    573
Thank you, San Diego Super Chargers, for posting that tax chart. If that was a well known chart I think McCain would lost a lot of support... so many republicans I know that are voting for him are using the age old "I don't want liberals raising my taxes" argument, which doesn't have any factual base in this election (for the vast majority of voters).

Obama doesn't have a lot of experience, but he seems to have a good handle on things. His economic policies are well thought out and show promise for the future of our country. McCain's economic plans... are vague, almost non-existant.
As far as foreign policy goes, I don't think we should be involved in war overseas when we have so many domestic problems at the moment. It's a tremendous waste of man-power and tax-payer money. Aside from that, though I'd admit McCain has more foreign experience, but I still think Obama would be better on foreign policy. It's been said before in this thread, but I'll repeat it anyhow. Other countries like Obama, and see McCain as a crazy old warhawk. That's not the reputation we need right now.
I will post again with my opinions of other major issues soon.
 
Obama is the highest spender. We dont want someone that goes and spends a lot of money on useless things. The US is having financhial problems. We dont want a big spender in office.

I am so tired of hearing about Obama. How is he going to creat jobs. How is he going to improve our falling economy?
He cannot create jobs! The only jobs he can creat are Goverment jobs, and oh look, more taxes have to be paied to pay those "new jobs" he created. How does that work. And if he wants to raise taxes for businesses all that does is decrease the number of jobs and hourd that workers can use. If a company has to pay more money, they adjust where all there money is going, what do they do, they cut a few hours here and there and they dont hire new people. That doesnt work. Honestly his plans are nothing but empty promises. Creat more jobs by doing street work? You need money for the street work and money to pay off the workers. Spend spend spend.
 

Hipmonlee

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From wikipedia:
Keynes argued that the solution to depression was to stimulate the economy ("inducement to invest") through some combination of two approaches :

* a reduction in interest rates.
* Government investment in infrastructure - the injection of income results in more spending in the general economy, which in turn stimulates more production and investment involving still more income and spending and so forth. The initial stimulation starts a cascade of events, whose total increase in economic activity is a multiple of the original investment.[1]

Not that I believe everything I read in wikipedia, but I dont think that the assumption that a big spender is a worse idea while having financial problems than at any other time is a fair one.

Have a nice day.
 
Obama is the highest spender. We dont want someone that goes and spends a lot of money on useless things. The US is having financhial problems. We dont want a big spender in office.
Ever heard the term "you've got to spend money to make money"?

Things like the US dependence on middle eastern oil are crippling your economy right now (to the point where it almost reached parity with the AUD before our economic slowdown), the solution is not to cut spending but to spend on things that will improve the US's ability to make money long term.

I know thinking more than 4 years ahead is hard for some people, but it's true.
 
Ok, im sorry, cuz our economy is doing great right now and we are not heading for big problems. Whatever, im dont reading in here, no one hear really understands what is going on. Good bye.
 
Obama seems likely to oversee a bigger reduction in military spending than McCain which is reasonably likely to negate any extra money he would spend on social programs. I think the current analysis is that neither are going to get this country into the green though; it's a pretty sucky time to be a fiscal conservative (those don't really exist in mainstream politics anymore).

My only view on Sarah Palin being unfit to be vice president is that it greatly perturbs me that she probably wouldn't have been selected were she a man (there are plenty of men who have pretty similar conservative credentials). The fact that some people support her just because she's a woman is even more wrong; the whole thing is just promoting division between the sexes. It doesn't really matter that she would be a bad president because the odds of McCain dying in office if elected are pretty slim (he's 72, not 92); it's just that the whole media circus she got was ridiculous and for all the wrong reasons.
 
Ok, im sorry, cuz our economy is doing great right now and we are not heading for big problems. Whatever, im dont reading in here, no one hear really understands what is going on. Good bye.
lolwut?

I'm undecided at the moment on who I will choose (and I'm just old enough to vote yay), though leaning towards McPalin atm. It bothers me a lot because personally I dislike both candidates. It doesn't help that they continue to attack each other, which is a disease in today's politics. So not only do you continuously get to hear bad shit about them (a portion which is probably false though) but you also get to see what big hypocrites they are through their attacks (pig and lipstick ring a bell?). So in my personal opinion if you are a big supporter of either candidate, you're probably a radical or reactionary, aka imo dipshits (my dislike of political parties and personal experience listening to these kinds of people has led me to greatly dislike their points of view, sorry if you are one...).
 

Hipmonlee

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Ok, im sorry, cuz our economy is doing great right now and we are not heading for big problems. Whatever, im dont reading in here, no one hear really understands what is going on. Good bye.
This isnt really a great reason not to post. If we understood what was going on and rejected your position out of some bias or something, then sure, but if we dont understand, then this should be a great opportunity to enlighten us.

Have a nice day.
 

Misty

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Obama seems likely to oversee a bigger reduction in military spending than McCain which is reasonably likely to negate any extra money he would spend on social programs. I think the current analysis is that neither are going to get this country into the green though; it's a pretty sucky time to be a fiscal conservative (those don't really exist in mainstream politics anymore).
I pretty much agree with this, but I'm not sure if Obama is really going to cut military spending. Clinton used the "peace dividend" argument to cut military spending, but Obama definitely won't be able to use that, given that he plans to ramp up the war in Afghanistan.

I'll be honest, the only way to significantly cut spending is to fix our broken health care system (and hence reduce Medicare and Medicaid outlays), and IMO Obama's fix is better than McCain's "fix" which he put together in an hour.
 
This is a late response, but no, Palin hurts Obama. Badly.

Seen the gossip rag and the magazine covers lately? Obama who? The media has directed 100% of their attention towards a 24-hour smear campaign on a Vice Presidential candidate
Have they been smearing her? Oh, good. Considering how corrupt and ignorant she is, that's a good thing. I mean, anyone who thinks Dinosaurs walked the earth 4000 years ago should not be VP.

It's actually a brilliant pick on McCain's part. The only thing leftists hate more than conservatives is minority and female conservatives (they don't "think the right way," you see).[/quote]

As usual, you have a knack for making absurd and unsubstantiated claims (Deck and I go way back). Who are these 'leftists'? Are you referring to centrist Democrats? Where is any evidence?

It couldn't possibly be that they disagree with her politics or find her unfit for being VP. Or maybe find her 'family values' stance hypocritical due to her corruption in Alaska and the fact that her daughter got pregnant out of wedlock (personally, I don't care. No leftists I know care, either. They simply see her as a hypocrite).

But, no. It's not any of that, it's that "leftists" hate "minority and female conservatives".

The entire media establishment outside of Fox News (which is centrist, center right tops. It is only "extreme right wing" relative to the socialist alphabet networks.)
Fox News is extremely right-wing, and all news networks are centrist at best. Unlike you, I can present proof. All news networks are owned by large corporations. Corporations whose profit margins would be undermined if not outright destroyed if they actually were 'leftist' and called for progressive changes in society. Clearly, they're not so stupid as to be self-destructive.

BTW, can you actually *define* socialist other than by using a non-answer like 'Russia' or 'something I don't like'? Can you do so in an objective way?

Independents, such as they are, like to see a fair fight, and will generally support the underdog.
This is another odd, unsubstantiated generalization.

The Media has been blatantly and demonstrably unfair to Sarah Palin, delving into the dumpster to attack her and her family personally where they give scant attention to any of Obama's questionable friends and partners.
How is it demonstratable?

There have been polls indicating over half of the population thinks the media is treating Palin unfairly, and that requires quite a lot of independents. In fact, just about any number over 20% requires independents as a factor.
What are your sources?

In other words, the media is in the tank for Obama and has overplayed their hand. Not only has Obama been forgotten in news coverage, but if the media ever figures out it ejaculated prematurely on killing Palin, by the time they come back McCain will have already stolen Obama's change rhetoric out from under him.

Normally the economy would be good ground for Democrats, whose lies sound sweet to the ears of many, but with Obama being essentially tied at the hip to Fannie Mae
You're exactly right, here. Democrats can't offer any real changes because they are simply in the pockets of capitalists. The only difference is that Democrats are sometimes slightly liberal on social issues. Clinton, for example, was liberal on social issues, but was as far right as Reagan when it came to the economy.

Palin only turns off independents
I think she turns off people who actual want to have a competent leader.

I'm voting for John McCain because he's the devil I know, and I know where I will have to fight him. In exchange for this negative, two things: 1. I get to see the future of the conservative movement made in Sarah Palin, who could easily be the first female president, and a true conservative one at that.
Deck, it's your choice, of course, but Palin really isn't very bright. She is not even aware of what the Bush Doctrine is, which I know is something you probably know/agree with. There is some reason to believe she is rather corrupt and ineffectual at keeping crime down (she was mayor of the meth capital of Alaska, for example).

2. I know McCain is bad on only a few select issues like illegal immigration, but is awesome on foreign policy, the war on terror, and ahead of the curve on the most crippling economic issues.
How is he awesome on foreign policy and the war on terror? In my opinion, his only decent stance - being against torture - evaporated in order to fit his party line.

And before you defend torture, it's simply an ineffective tactic for ANYTHING. People will tell you what they think you want to hear. It's simply a terror weapon - terrorism, basically. In a war like this, where you can't intimidate the enemy, that only backfires and makes more people want to fight you.

If you really wanted to win the "war on terror" (which I think is a farce to begin with), you'd not do it by being brutal to your enemies. You'd do it by treating them extremely nicely; make prison camps a paradise. It would completely undercut the arguments used by the enemy in saying we are devils. If you converted captured enemy combatants to your side, you could win easily. This is called 'winning a battle and becoming stronger'. It's one of the oldest tactics used by generals who actually win wars and battles.

Deck Knight would be funny if his posts were satire.
Quoted from McGraw

You're absolutely right.

BTW, Deck, your signature is funny since the worst murderers in history were, by far, capitalists.
 
Obama does intend to go through old programs set up decades ago and cut the ones that no longer have a purpose (there are dozens of them eating our tax dollars -_-).

Forgot to mention my views on Palin.

Hmmm... do I want a person who doesn't know what the Bush Doctrine is to be a heartbeat away from the presidency? A person who spent 15 million tax dollars to build a sports facility for a town with 6,000 people (after all of the legal fees because she started construction for the facility on property not even owned by the city). Earmarks for Wasilla (the city she was mayor of) were 1,000$ per capita. The average for the US is 50$ per capita. Sounds like she'd be great at handling the economy =/
Anything she's ever said that wasn't scripted has been a complete disaster. She's going to explode in her first debate with Joe Biden (the MOST qualified man in america to be president IMO, an experienced, intelligent, quick-witted politician who is also a good debater).

Lexite: Where do you live? Not the U.S apparently, unless you live under a rock. Our economy has been getting worse for a while now, and with the huge bank problems this week it's going to get a lot worse.
 

Deck Knight

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Have they been smearing her? Oh, good. Considering how corrupt and ignorant she is, that's a good thing. I mean, anyone who thinks Dinosaurs walked the earth 4000 years ago should not be VP.
Palin fought corruption in her own state, which, need I remind you, was dominated by Republicans. Obama was a Chicago Daley Machine hack. Obama didn't fight corruption, he made deals with it. Tony Rezko, convicted felon, was his real estate agent.

As for your ludicrous Dinosaur claim, did you rip that straight from DailyKos or is that just your imagination running wild again?

As usual, you have a knack for making absurd and unsubstantiated claims (Deck and I go way back). Who are these 'leftists'? Are you referring to centrist Democrats? Where is any evidence?
Yes. Totally. Unsubstantiated. Rumors. About. Left Wing. Hatred of Sarah Palin's being.

I submit I lost here, as I was not able to find a unique link for each word in the previous sentence. It appears the upper limit on blatant bias/hatred is 6 articles. There are the more subtle snipes at her unseriousness due to her being physically attractive, but I honestly don't think people searching for incriminating bikini photos counts as hatred as much as lust.

It couldn't possibly be that they disagree with her politics or find her unfit for being VP. Or maybe find her 'family values' stance hypocritical due to her corruption in Alaska and the fact that her daughter got pregnant out of wedlock (personally, I don't care. No leftists I know care, either. They simply see her as a hypocrite).
The day I hear someone say "her contraception failed, therefore comprehensive sex education is a categorical failure" is the day I'll put any stock against abstinence education. As it stands, you will never become pregnant if you remain abstinent, but stories of "safe" sex failing to prevent pregnancy are legion. Rape is a non-sequiter, as rapists do not tend to use protection. Leftists expected the "right wing," e.g. people like me, to turn on Sarah Palin. We didn't because we realize that parents only have limited control over their teenagers, and teenagers have a habit of making mistakes. Sarah Palin is no more a hypocrite for her daughter getting pregnant than would Obama be if his hypothetical teenage daughter got pregnant.

Leftists do not think we are capable of this nuance. A Leftist's view of the Right Wing is as a demonic caricature, not as a real person. Why else would the pregnancy of a minor be front page news in America's "Paper of Record?"

Going back to the above: If Obama had a teenage daughter who used contraception and still got pregnant, would it be cited as just another example of the categorical failure of comprehensive sex-ed? You and I both know the answer is no. It is no because "safe" sex is a multi-billion dollar industry whereas willpower is essentially free. Somebody makes money off of pills, condoms, mouth guards, etc, and its in their interest to keep selling those things. The people that make money off those products are wholly linked and merged with Big Abortion. When their products fail, as they inevitably do, as all things which fight against the very nature of biology, abortion is there to step in.

But that is enough for now, onto the rest of your concerns.

But, no. It's not any of that, it's that "leftists" hate "minority and female conservatives".
Oh, there are some people that oppose her because of her positions. But they aren't in the media. Call me when the NYT runs a front page story about Barack Obama's dubious associations. I'm counting 1 large hit piece on Palin and nothing but kisses and adulation for the big O.

For comparison:

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refer...tml?query=OBAMA, BARACK&field=per&match=exact

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/sarah_palin/index.html

I note with particular interest the NYT managed to interview the 25% of people in Alaska who are not satisfied with Palin for their interviews, and yet they merely repeat the Barack Obama Campaign's talking points about Ayers simply being a guy in Obama's neighborhood.

The press sent dozens way up to Wasilla to gather every last negative opinion of Palin they could, and yet they could not be bothered to check Obama's associations from their Chicago office?

Fox News is extremely right-wing, and all news networks are centrist at best. Unlike you, I can present proof. All news networks are owned by large corporations. Corporations whose profit margins would be undermined if not outright destroyed if they actually were 'leftist' and called for progressive changes in society. Clearly, they're not so stupid as to be self-destructive.
George Soros is a billionaire socialist. He is very comfortable throwing money around to lost liberal causes like Air America. Moreover, your "proof" is a logical algorithm loosely translated as follows:

Corporations are rich
Rich entities cannot be left-wing
Therefore, corporations must be right-wing.

I, however, have this study.

Pictures:





Read the whole thing, of course. But as I said, Fox News is only "extreme right wing" in relation to the other networks. This is just 2008 election data, I'll need to scrounge around more for data over a longer time period, but basically Fox plays it mostly down the middle. This should amply answer your queries on media bias and coverage.


BTW, can you actually *define* socialist other than by using a non-answer like 'Russia' or 'something I don't like'? Can you do so in an objective way?
Socialist: Any person who believes government should have as much control over economic and personal decisions as possible. Thus, a socialist policy will seek to nationalize all industries, especially those inextricably linked to health, safety, and well-being: e.g. Energy, Health Care, Finance, and Social Services.

You're exactly right, here. Democrats can't offer any real changes because they are simply in the pockets of capitalists. The only difference is that Democrats are sometimes slightly liberal on social issues. Clinton, for example, was liberal on social issues, but was as far right as Reagan when it came to the economy.
Democrats are in the pocket of socialist groups that support expanded government social services. Pro-Abortion groups want government provided daycare, for example.The Sodomy lobby is easily bought with promises of forced acceptance for their sexual preferences, in exchange for government being able to define marriage as it sees fit. Labor Bosses are currently trying to remove secret balloting because unions are now more about securing kickbacks than opposing bad labor conditions.

Oh, and while we're at it, can you define "capitalist" outside of "republicans" or "corporations" or "something I don't like?"

I think she turns off people who actual want to have a competent leader.
Obama has never shown any inclination towards competence. He can't even command the English language when removed from a teleprompter.

Deck, it's your choice, of course, but Palin really isn't very bright. She is not even aware of what the Bush Doctrine is, which I know is something you probably know/agree with. There is some reason to believe she is rather corrupt and ineffectual at keeping crime down (she was mayor of the meth capital of Alaska, for example).
Obama was State Senator and then U.S. Senator representing the most corrupt Political Machine in the country. You're not seriously going to compare Chicago's crime, corruption, and violence levels to Wasilla, Alaska, are you? Chicago is probably simultaneously the crystal meth, crack, weed, and PCP capital of Illinois. Obama did a great job organizing that community; they appear to be living in the same shoddy tenements as before. That's Change you can Hope for, but, of course, will never receive.

Now, Define the Bush Doctrine. And no, do not use "pre-emptive war for oil." If you want to know what it is, I recommend asking Charles Krauthammer.

Krauthammer said:
The New York Times got it wrong. And Charlie Gibson got it wrong.

There is no single meaning of the Bush doctrine. In fact, there have been four distinct meanings, each one succeeding another over the eight years of this administration -- and the one Charlie Gibson cited is not the one in common usage today. It is utterly different.

[..]

I know something about the subject because, as the Wikipedia entry on the Bush doctrine notes, I was the first to use the term. In the cover essay of the June 4, 2001, issue of the Weekly Standard entitled, "The Bush Doctrine: ABM, Kyoto, and the New American Unilateralism," I suggested that the Bush administration policies of unilaterally withdrawing from the ABM treaty and rejecting the Kyoto protocol, together with others, amounted to a radical change in foreign policy that should be called the Bush doctrine.
I support fighting terrorism wherever it rears its ugly head. This does not mean we need to send the US Army and Marines everywhere, it means we must oust terrorist supporting states when possible and work with democratic countries to fight the terrorist cells in their nations. The US cannot reasonably invade everywhere, but they don't need to if terrorists have no refuge anywhere on earth.

How is he awesome on foreign policy and the war on terror? In my opinion, his only decent stance - being against torture - evaporated in order to fit his party line.
Please tell me how a man literally maimed in a war is a warmonger. Fact is, McCain got the Georgia-Russia conflict right instantly, Obama took 3 days to reach a carbon copy of John McCain's first position. McCain knows a KGB man like Putin when he sees him. He was also railing against government excesses with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in 2005, before, amazingly, Election 2008 even started.

And before you defend torture, it's simply an ineffective tactic for ANYTHING. People will tell you what they think you want to hear. It's simply a terror weapon - terrorism, basically. In a war like this, where you can't intimidate the enemy, that only backfires and makes more people want to fight you.
The United States has used torture exactly three times since Sept. 11th to obtain information, all of which were before the Iraq war. The incidents at Abu Ghraib were deplorable and those responsible were punished. They violated the UCMJ, the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

And here is a fun one Cuchonchuir: Define torture. then explain to me how I support torture under your definition of torture, citing examples of things I have written.

If you really wanted to win the "war on terror" (which I think is a farce to begin with), you'd not do it by being brutal to your enemies. You'd do it by treating them extremely nicely; make prison camps a paradise. It would completely undercut the arguments used by the enemy in saying we are devils. If you converted captured enemy combatants to your side, you could win easily. This is called 'winning a battle and becoming stronger'. It's one of the oldest tactics used by generals who actually win wars and battles.
Terrorists do not value their lives. Their sole goal is to kill you in the name of Allah. Giving them creature comforts will not placate them. They will eat your meal, thank you graciously, and then detonate their suicide vest. You cannot reason with the unreasonable; the only thing they understand is raw, total obliteration. Yours is the policy of Neville Chamberlain. How did that work out? Did we achieve "peace in our time?" Did Hitler come to his senses and realize Britain and France really only wanted to be friends, and that he should stop running over Poles and Slovaks and Russians with tanks?

BTW, Deck, your signature is funny since the worst murderers in history were, by far, capitalists.
Adolf Hitler, Bennito Mussolini, Joseph Stalin, Ho Chi-Minh, Pol-Pot, and Mao-Tse-Tung: Ardent Capitalists, them. I believe their combined death toll is somewhere around 5% of current world population. Mao killed more Chinese people under his rule than in all of China's recorded history. Pretty sure Uncle Joe did the same for Russians. Hitler was smart enough to know that you throw in Nationalism with Socialism, so that you end up with less dead Germans and more dead everyone else. Ironically, he was actually the first of the atheistic socialist leaders. I suppose there were also elements of corporatism in there, but corporatism isn't capitalism.

You may continue to live in fantasy, but so far the worst thing stupid capitalists have done is make stupid decisions with inherently crappy financial instruments. The net effect this has had on America is that poverty is defined as living and eating indoors and having only one vehicle. Compare this with socialist countries, where the definition of poverty is dead in a street with a jackbooted thug standing over your corpse (poor socialism ala North Korea) or double-digit unemployment, inability to project power or defend against a real threat, and faceless bureaucracies that view your life as a series of expenses instead of something with intrinsic value (rich socialism ala The Netherlands, and soon Britain).

I do believe I remember you Cuchonchuir, but it was quite a while ago, and I'm about as impressed now as I was then, which is not very.
 
There are a few states to still consider, and these will make the difference of McCain and Obama winning...


Pennsylvania - A few weeks ago, when McCain first selected Palin, electoral-vote.com said that she would appeal to the working class people of Pa, Oh, Va, WV, and the like. It is really working for him in Pa - Pennsylvania is essentially a statistical tie, as opposed to a 55/40 split for Obama.

Virginia - A Republican is usually guaranteed this state. That is, if demographics were what they used to be. The northern suburbs that are heavily liberal/democratic are now about twice the population size they were before.
Sarah Palin has fixed this though, and brought it back under the "right" majority (thats a pun - right meaning correct and right wing meaning republican. In before oxymoron comment).
The success here hinges on Palin staying popular.


Colorado - It splits down the middle, really a coin toss, honestly - its usually 48/52 splits if that far. Any comments to help me with this is greatly appreciated.

New Mexico - similar to Colorado, but a bit more umm...anti-McCain. Immigration, issues perhaps?

Nevada - Not much to say - really not clear on why its been going iffy iffy. Help here?

Florida - A battle ground for the past what - 2-4 presidential races? You have the people with lots of money and big mansions, and then you have the poor people that live in big commerce areas for service in places like Disneyland and Sea World. You have the relatively rich retirees who are making hand over fist from bank savings and retirement funds, and you have the elderly that grew up from the poor as highlighted above. Really questionable, but its shifting very conservative courtesy of no major hurricanes damaging things and causing another humiliation for the current administration.



Sort-of-Swing states that were not highlighted:

Ohio / Indianna / Michigan - look up the Palin Effect, and then Pennsylvania and Virginia. Michigan was looking more and more Republican from beforehand, but Palin is really trying to shift things back to McCain

Minnesota: Don't ask me, I have no clue. Quite a recent development that its only a slight democrat leaning Republican, as opposed to very strong democrat. The convention, maybe?

Wisconsin - see Minnesota, minus the guess. I have no clue whats going on here in terms of "barely Democratic", except for possible polling errors or that the people are "reverting to old ways and clinging to guns and religion"?



Former Swing States:
Texas - some analysts said it was a problem, similar to Virginia - the nuntil McCaorthern areas are highly democratic, and they have been increasing in population. Back on May 8th, it looked plausible that the senate race would be tight.
You also have a lot of immigrants coming in, and a good number got voting rights (those there for years), and they do not go conservative.
That was all plausible, except when Texas got more rich from more oil, and everyone prospered, calling for tax cuts.

Iowa: Iowa has been republican for a long time. That is, until McCain essentially ditched corn ethanol and Obama supported it. More corn going to ethanol means higher food prices. It is now completely democrat, and essentially sealed as "blue"





Edit: Late by a long shot. 4-5 hours of formulating a post - I probably shouldn't have eaten dinner and fallen asleep.
Anyway, Deck Night - I totally support you in most of what you said.

The only problem was back in the television industry and "who they support" - I find CNN to be a bunch of socialist fuktards, and you know as well as I do that Fox is very conservative (not as arrogant as CNN, though).
 

Misty

oh
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Nevada's dynamics tend to be highly polarized - pro-gun nuts and Mormons on the Republican side, Hispanics and Las Vegas on the Democratic side. Obama could be winning or losing by 10% and Nevada would still be close. Ground game matters here, I think.

Strangely, Michigan and Pennsylvania have flipped. Michigan now seems fairly Democratic, while Pennsylvania is drifting more towards a tie. I'm not sure what to attribute this to; but in any case, I still full expect Obama to win both states at this point.

Two polls in Indiana today show it very close - which is fairly surprising. Still, I don't expect Obama to win it unless he's up by about 7-8%, in which case he's won every swing state imaginable anyway.

Florida has been a bit hard to pin down, but the balance of polls shows a Republican lean.

Ohio seems to be drifting in Obama's direction - now that the economy is in and Palin is out.

Colorado is looking like it's going to decide this election. I can't imagine a scenario where Obama loses MI/PA/NM and winning CO; or where he wins OH/VA/FL without winning Colorado.
 

maddog

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If I could vote, I would vote for McCain in this election. Barak Oboma is just an idealistic fool. He wants middle class tax cuts along with... more government spending in universal health care, another government rebate check, and general increased government size... Seriously. Does anybody else understand you can't decrease taxes and increase the size of government? In order to 'try' to balance himself, he says he'll tax business. Which, last time I checked, are people I buy everything from, including groceries, gas, and other essentials. There is no way Oboma will be able to keep his promises. I think John Mccain is a decent canadiate, but Oboma will just say whatever he needs to get elected. Barak Oboma is a great speaker, but great campaining doesn't equal great president. John Mccain is the strongest caniadate still standing.
 
maddog said:
If I could vote, I would vote for McCain in this election. Barak Oboma is just an idealistic fool...There is no way Oboma will be able to keep his promises.
If more Americans had this view, I could see us rising back to the top of the world, and be a center of scientific inginuity and economic dominance we had under Eisenhower. I would say Reagan, but we didn't have any real breakthroughs of the top of my head.


maddog said:
He wants middle class tax cuts along with... more government spending in universal health care, another government rebate check, and general increased government size... Seriously. Does anybody else understand you can't decrease taxes and increase the size of government?
Well, many would argue Bush = Obama on this - increase the size of the military while offering tax cuts to everyone.

We as the United States won't work well with universal health care. Europeans, Canadians, tell me - how long do you wait between doctor appointments while you're healthy? 4-6 months? How about when you're sick, and you need orthopedists with a reputation. Try 1-2 years. Our insurance system is fine as long as people don't abuse it and know what the terms are. We have laws that force insurance companies to give certain coverage even after firing for no more than you were paying already. You need to know how to read, and how to make your money andyour job work for you.

maddgo said:
In order to 'try' to balance himself, he says he'll tax business.
Actually, this is how he's going to fix health care - he says that if universal health care doesn't pass, he'll force the corner store with a stock boy and a register man to provide health care for both - it will inevitably lead to the firing of these "extras", will eventually lead to the failure of the small business, and will thus support big business - something he claims to be against.

maddog said:
I think John Mccain is a decent canadiate, but Oboma will just say whatever he needs to get elected. Barak Oboma is a great speaker...
I'm not one to quote religious texts, sheerly(sp?) because their accuracy is questionable. Here's what I get fromt he antichrist:
~Utopian ideology
~Great orator
~Wolf in sheeps clothing
~Appeals to those suffering (the weak)
~Makes promises that he breaks half the term in.
~Wiped out by the army of heaven

Hmm...Adolf Hitler fits most of those. Stalin fits most (he wasn't killed by an army - Truman was a pussy). Napoleon was wiped out by the Brits and Americans. Obama if he gets elected will probably fulfill all of them. I think we can expect massive death and destruction while he's president.


maddog said:
..., but great campaining doesn't equal great president. John Mccain is the strongest caniadate still standing.
Perfect conclusion.



Misty: Palin effect. electoral-vote.com siad that its because she's a real hotty.
 
Palin fought corruption in her own state, which, need I remind you, was dominated by Republicans. Obama was a Chicago Daley Machine hack. Obama didn't fight corruption, he made deals with it. Tony Rezko, convicted felon, was his real estate agent.
The corruption I was referring to was trying to get an ex in-law removed the police department. Source: http://www.newser.com/story/36605/palin-emails-complain-in-law-wasnt-canned.html

The funny thing is, I'm not defending Obama. Trying to prove he's corrupt does not dismiss what I am saying about Palin.

As for your ludicrous Dinosaur claim, did you rip that straight from DailyKos or is that just your imagination running wild again?
I made a logical conclusion about this one. She claims not to support the teaching of creation myths as science in schools, but believes in a 'debate'. Source: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gV5jvU52RD3WBflzbmSu5l6zwOqAD92V3VQG0

Anyone who can think can see clearly she supports creationism. Why would someone advocate letting it be considered, when it has no credible scientific backing, unless they believed it themselves?

Also, funny that you claim my 'imagination is running away from me again', when you later claim to barely remember me.


None of these sources are left-wing. They're centrist, at best. Provide me some evidence that these people actually advocate something that is remotely similar to workers owning the means of production.

The day I hear someone say "her contraception failed, therefore comprehensive sex education is a categorical failure" is the day I'll put any stock against abstinence education. As it stands, you will never become pregnant if you remain abstinent, but stories of "safe" sex failing to prevent pregnancy are legion. Rape is a non-sequiter, as rapists do not tend to use protection. Leftists expected the "right wing," e.g. people like me, to turn on Sarah Palin. We didn't because we realize that parents only have limited control over their teenagers, and teenagers have a habit of making mistakes. Sarah Palin is no more a hypocrite for her daughter getting pregnant than would Obama be if his hypothetical teenage daughter got pregnant.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-06-24-abstinence-grants_N.htm Oh, look at this. Turns out that most of the US states think abstinence education is a failure after trying it out.

Leftists do not think we are capable of this nuance. A Leftist's view of the Right Wing is as a demonic caricature, not as a real person. Why else would the pregnancy of a minor be front page news in America's "Paper of Record?"
Perhaps some people feel it is hypocritical to claim you are 'family-oriented' when you don't pay enough attention to your kid to prevent them from getting pregnant.

George Soros is a billionaire socialist. He is very comfortable throwing money around to lost liberal causes like Air America. Moreover, your "proof" is a logical algorithm loosely translated as follows:

Corporations are rich
Rich entities cannot be left-wing
Therefore, corporations must be right-wing.
That only proves you didn't understand what I was saying.

If news networks were actually socialist, they would be shooting themselves in the foot. If, as your definition claims, socialism is everything controlled by the gov't, then why would they advocate it? It would ruin them.

I, however, have this study.
Oooookay, this doesn't actually show that they are left-wing. Just that they don't like McCain as much as they do Obama. Considering Obama is a pretty-standard politician and McCain has long been considered an extreme maverick, that isn't really a surprise.

You have to look at the whole picture to get an accurate idea of left and right. For example, the rest of first the world would not consider any American politician left-wing. In other countries, the Communist Party regularly gets a nice chunk of votes. So, really, you're just seeing it this way because you are only looking at a narrow example.

Socialist: Any person who believes government should have as much control over economic and personal decisions as possible. Thus, a socialist policy will seek to nationalize all industries, especially those inextricably linked to health, safety, and well-being: e.g. Energy, Health Care, Finance, and Social Services.
Hahaha. While what you describe are loosely elements of socialism, they are not a definition. Socialism is the working class controlling the state.

. . . The Sodomy lobby . . .
Speaking of shooting yourself in the foot. Do you have any credibility left with anyone after a statement like this? I mean, let's be honest. You're not going to convince me, and I'm not going to convince you, ever.

The thing is, will we convince anyone else? The answer in this case is probably that we will only preach to the converted. The problem is that with such a bigoted statement, you've shown too much of yourself.

Why would anyone want to align themselves with someone so intolerant?

unions are now more about securing kickbacks than opposing bad labor conditions.
You got this one right. The US has no real organized working class anymore, which is why worker's rights are taking a real hit.

Oh, and while we're at it, can you define "capitalist" outside of "republicans" or "corporations" or "something I don't like?"
A capitalist is someone who owns the means of production. The definition of capitalism is an economy in which commodity production by wage labour.

The US is not a 'free market', as evidenced by the recent government corporate welfare (AKA buyouts). Every time the market is 'free', it fails spectacularly and has to be saved; the Depression, the 80s, and now.

BTW, Democrats are capitalists, too. You make the mistake of assuming that I am a liberal or democrat. I am neither. I call them all as capitalists who do not have the interests of the working class at heart.

Now, Define the Bush Doctrine. And no, do not use "pre-emptive war for oil." If you want to know what it is, I recommend asking Charles Krauthammer.
It's the doctrine of pursuing American interests using military might. Charles Krauthammer is a very right-wing writer. Almost every one of your sources is. It is a bad sign when you can only find evidence from highly biased people.


I support fighting terrorism wherever it rears its ugly head. This does not mean we need to send the US Army and Marines everywhere, it means we must oust terrorist supporting states when possible and work with democratic countries to fight the terrorist cells in their nations. The US cannot reasonably invade everywhere, but they don't need to if terrorists have no refuge anywhere on earth.
So, what does it mean when we use terrorism? Who defines a 'terrorism supporting state'? Britain uses terrorism regularly. So does the US. So does Israel.

It's really about protecting capitalist interests.

Fact is, McCain got the Georgia-Russia conflict right instantly, Obama took 3 days to reach a carbon copy of John McCain's first position. McCain knows a KGB man like Putin when he sees him.
To be honest, Georgia invaded South Ossetia and proceeded to ethnically cleanse the local population. The fact that Russia invaded in turn was highly justified - just not in the west because it was in our interests to support Georgia, as Russia is a potential rival of the US.

The United States has used torture exactly three times since Sept. 11th to obtain information, all of which were before the Iraq war. The incidents at Abu Ghraib were deplorable and those responsible were punished. They violated the UCMJ, the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
There has never been evidence given that many of the detainees who have been tortured were enemy combatants. They have been denied trials (a violation of human rights) for years now.

As for torture, here's a source: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/us0706/ And another one: http://www.slate.com/id/2100014/ More than three incidents.

Many perpetrators have not been punished. Or did you miss this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5253160.stm The perpetrators were not punished.

And here is a fun one Cuchonchuir: Define torture. then explain to me how I support torture under your definition of torture, citing examples of things I have written.
[FONT=Geneva,Arial][SIZE=-1]“No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”
—The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 5 (1948)
[/SIZE][/FONT]
You support someone for president who supports torture. Bang. Done. Any moral person would not support someone who does something they find morally abhorrent.

Terrorists do not value their lives. Their sole goal is to kill you in the name of Allah.
You're confusing 'terrorist' and 'muslim extremist'.

Giving them creature comforts will not placate them. They will eat your meal, thank you graciously, and then detonate their suicide vest. You cannot reason with the unreasonable; the only thing they understand is raw, total obliteration.
Actually, this is patently false. Israel has used this tactic with great success. It undercuts their arguments that we are evil, while torture, mass killings of civilians, and inhumane treatment has the exact opposite effect.

Yours is the policy of Neville Chamberlain. How did that work out? Did we achieve "peace in our time?" Did Hitler come to his senses and realize Britain and France really only wanted to be friends, and that he should stop running over Poles and Slovaks and Russians with tanks?
Straw Man attack. Or truly not getting my point attack, not sure which.

And actually what's funny is that the reason Chamberlain tried to appease Hitler is that he knew the British Empire was not in a position to go to war. He purposefully stalled in order to give them time to prepare for war.

This is very similar to the air Battle of Britain. The British made London and other cities easy targets for the Luftwaffe in order to lure them away from their fighter production plants, landing strips, and radar facilities.

Adolf Hitler, Bennito Mussolini,
^ Fascism is an extreme form of capitalism. Fascism is the ruling classes attempt to reign in a growing working-class movement. BTW, the worst atrocities in China have been perpetrated after their shift to capitalism.

You give no numbers or sources for any of them, then make outrageous claims.

Here's a claim that's simply accurate: before European settlement of North America, there were (by a conservative estimate) 100 million natives on what is now the US. Today, there are approximately 1 million.

This is the worst genocide in history, perpetrated purposefully by capitalists. Yes, even the introduction of foreign diseases was used as a weapon, such as giving smallpox infected blankets to tribes after forcibly relocating them in the winter.

Another interesting tidbit; Hitler got the idea for concentration camps for enacting his 'final solution' from the (capitalist) British government, who used them in the Boer War. In fact, he named one camp 'Saxenhausen', or House of the Saxon, in their honor.

You may continue to live in fantasy . . .
Considering the rest of what you say after this is fantastic drivel, this makes me lol.
 

maddog

is a master debater
is a Contributor Alumnus
Cuchonchuir said:
You support someone for president who supports torture. Bang. Done. Any moral person would not support someone who does something they find morally abhorrent.
No matter what president comes into office, Gitmo will probably be closed down. John Mccain has said that he felt that the Sumpreme Court case that granted the detainees was a poor decision, granted. But, I fail to see how you can draw the conclusion that John Mccain supports toture. In fact, he has personal experience with the subject, and is one of the few people that has. He has said that toture is horrible, because of the hell he went through in Vietnam. The fact that you think that John Mccain supports toture is beyond me. Reading some enemy combations their rights and toturing someone are two entirely different things.
Peanut-Lover said:
I'm not one to quote religious texts, sheerly(sp?) because their accuracy is questionable. Here's what I get fromt he antichrist:
~Utopian ideology
~Great orator
~Wolf in sheeps clothing
~Appeals to those suffering (the weak)
~Makes promises that he breaks half the term in.
~Wiped out by the army of heaven

Hmm...Adolf Hitler fits most of those. Stalin fits most (he wasn't killed by an army - Truman was a pussy). Napoleon was wiped out by the Brits and Americans. Obama if he gets elected will probably fulfill all of them. I think we can expect massive death and destruction while he's president.over
Finally somebody understands it.



But seriously, your putting words in my mouth. Barak Oboma has been more inconsistant than John Kerry when it comes to the positions he takes on issues. He changes his opinion on a wim in order to make more people like him, and preaches to the masses to make them think he can actually do something like universal health care and what not. I don't think that Oboma will necessary break the promises he makes, but he is making promises he can't keep (or he'll just change his mind when it becomes unpopular). That's not the Antichrist, that is an inexperienced politician that doesn't relize what he's doing.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I'll be quick since this will otherwise turn into a whole lot of tl;dr posts:

First:

Your source misquotes Palin and your logical conclusion is devoid of logic. Nowhere has Palin ever said she believed in Young Earth Theory, which is only a branch of creationism.

Second:

Socialism in theory is the means of production in the hands of worker. Socialism in practice is the means of production in the hands of an all-powerful government. Theoretical socialism has never been achieved because it is impossible. Autocrats manipulate the working class into supporting The Party, and the working class complies. Usually under death threats.

Fascism is not an extreme form of Capitalism. Hitler's Fascism merely incorporated some corporatism, or the rule of a select few special interests over society. Capitalism is an individualistic system, corporatism is a oligarchical collective. Fascism has much, much more in common with Socialism than Capitalism. Hitler was not a capitalist. He did not support individual economic freedom or free markets, he is therefore by definition not a capitalist. I also note you ignored the rest of the list, and that was rather wise, since Hitler was small-time compared to Stalin and Mao. And further, need I remind you that NaZi is short for German National Socialist Worker's Party? Sounds like an outfit that's real big on capitalism to me.

Israeli appeasement of muslim extremists has done nothing for them. The Palestinian thugs still bomb them daily, and no matter how many "Land for Peace" treaties they are goaded into, the Palestinians will never stop attacking Israel because their goal is not land, it is extermination of Israel. If Yassir Arafat did not make this clear to you, I do not know what will.

Third:

You have not substantiated where either I or McCain supports torture. Your hasty retreat is an indication of the weakness of your position. Bang. Done. Any Intellectually Honest person would not run away.

Oh, and your quote fails on even basic English standards. You cannot have a definition of the word torture that contains the word torture in it. Torture is Torture is tortured logic, circular too. Unless you assume the second clause to be a redundancy with the first. Which, by definition torture would have to be cruel and unusual. If it were cruel and usual it would not be torture. If it were not cruel and unusual, it would also not be torture.

In short, because international interrogation tactics are usual, they cannot be considered torture. Unless you're using a tortured definition of torture, whereby anything that sounds icky or unappealing is torture, but that is an arbitrary standard.

Oh, btw. Why would a man who was brutally tortured support torture? No, don't bother explaining. McCain supports torture is your premise. No amount of facts will sway you, because any fact, relevant experience, or other persuasive instrument will not make you budge. In your mind McCain supports torture at a basic level, and all other information is filtered through "McCain supports torture" first. Even if McCain were to walk up to your house and knock on your door and denounce torture in front of you, you would simply say he is lying.

Fourth:

Krauthammer was first quoted using the Bush Doctrine. Therefore no matter how Right or Left Wing he is, he would know what it is. If Charles Krauthammer told you 2 + 2 = 4, would you deny it because he is right wing, and therefore is biased towards answering 4? You are free to have your own opinions, but you are not free to have your own facts, sir.

Fifth:

My sources vis-a-vis hatred of Sarah Palin are all left-wing Democrats who say as much or are known as such. The current platform of the Democratic Party seeks to expand government as much as possible. Barack Obama specifically wants to nationalize health care, a staple of a socialist society. That is textbook socialism in practice. They are only centrist compared to the Communist Party, and thankfully in America, the Communist Party is hated and ridiculed. America rewards success, socialism punishes it. The end goal of socialism is equality of outcome. That is why it seeks to have one entity control all facets of society, so that redistribution of income can be spread across the masses.

Of course, socialism doesn't produce anything, it is a zero sum game, rationing a fixed sized pie to ever more members. Which is where abortion and euthanasia come in, interestingly enough. Kill diseased or unworthy children before they are born and the elderly when they become inconvenient. Then you have more of the pie to ration to healthy people. But if people don't take care of their health, well, that is what prohibitions and mandates are for. That is why the most highly socialist countries had a control economy. They were dismal failures of course, but utopia is on its way once we just get the right people.

The dirty little secret of socialism is that they realize that a single autocrat can't take care of everything, or even most things. That is why they made deals with the media. See, The media are an integral part of every Socialist's information control mechanism. A Socialist will grant the media job security as long as they say the right things. The CEOs will continue to make huge bucks. It's permanent job security free from market forces. That is why the major press in almost every country is left of the viewers. A Socialist autocrat means permanent job security, and instead of having to worry about expenses, CEOs can just gladhand as the government pays the employee salaries. Because really, socialists don't care about the proletariat, they care about the trappings of power. Any stated position they have against the bourgeois is purely rhetoric.

I mean, you don't really think Stalin cared about the farm workers as much as the farm owner, do you?

Every Stalin has his Pravda, just like every Obama has his MSNBC. The media is permanently enfranchised as an information control outlet in an authoritarian society. For more information, read George Orwell's 1984.

We are at war with EastAsia. We have always been at war with EastAsia. This is Keith Olbermann, reporting.

Sixth (can't let this go by either):

The US, Britain, and Israel do not engage in terrorism. We've had bans on assassination for decades for one, and second, we do not send fighters in civilian clothes to damage other countries landmarks and population centers to inspire terror and communicate political demands. That is what Terrorism is, and no First World Nation engages in it.

We have not engaged in Mass Killings, either: you're looking for Saddam Hussein. He's dead now. We captured him and the Iraqis hung him after finding him guilty a full and fair trial in the Iraqi court system. Since then the Iraqis have had a referendum and 2 full elections. Honestly, Mass Killings? Where did you get your history from, Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky?

Moreover, Georgia did not invade South Ossetia. You cannot invade your own territory. It would be like saying the US Army invaded New York. Russia had been piling in Russian Passports and stirring up animosity with agitators for quite some time, and then made his move under the auspice of protecting native Russias. This is why Russian tanks were 15 miles for Georgia's capital, despite that capital being nowhere near disputed territory. And how did Russia get so much armor down there so fast. Bet your bottom dollar Putin had it all planned. Unlike Obama, Putin is a geopolitical genius. An evil genius, but a genius nonetheless. In fact, Putin hopes for an Obama Presidency so that he can dupe the gullible 1/2 term Senator into a situation he cannot possibly win.
 
I think the Iraq war counts as a pretty fair mass killing. Brilliant, we've spread the ridiculous capitalist democracy to Iraq and have killed far more than Saddam ever did.
 
As I have neither the time nor the desire to respond to your hyperbolic diatribe, I shall simply tackle the closing inanity.

Moreover, Georgia did not invade South Ossetia. You cannot invade your own territory. It would be like saying the US Army invaded New York.
Playing semantics does nothing but distract from the fact that Georgia was, indeed, the instigator of the violence, which Condoleezza Rice herself admitted in her bitter denunciation of Russia's overreaction.[1] On a side note, I suppose the fact that 99% of South Ossetians support independence[2] means nothing; after all, paying attention to such interesting tidbits might give the impression that the United States actually cares about democracy.


Russia had been piling in Russian Passports and stirring up animosity with agitators for quite some time, and then made his move under the auspice of protecting native Russias. This is why Russian tanks were 15 miles for Georgia's capital, despite that capital being nowhere near disputed territory. And how did Russia get so much armor down there so fast. Bet your bottom dollar Putin had it all planned.
There is no evidence, however, that Russia was amassing armor with the intent to invade.[3] I like how you conveniently ignore the contrary Russian claims that the United States orchestrated the event, which hold similar weight. Russia lost the "propaganda war"[4] however, so it is no wonder which view has become more prevalent.


Unlike Obama, Putin is a geopolitical genius. An evil genius, but a genius nonetheless. In fact, Putin hopes for an Obama Presidency so that he can dupe the gullible 1/2 term Senator into a situation he cannot possibly win.
I suppose Obama is simply "evil" then. Though I do not know why you think Putin would want to "dupe" Obama; they are both "socialists" according to you, so shouldn't they get along just fine with one another?

On that note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War#End_of_the_Cold_War_.281985.E2.80.9391.29

Yes, it really did end.

REFERENCES

1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7623555.stm
2. http://www.regnum.ru/english/737823.html
3. http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gj_jyRnqBYekXz2MyszBj6k_ZMtw
4. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7562611.stm
 
Deck, you fail to comprehend anything I have said. I am sorry for you. This is not a debate, because you do not debate, but instead spew bile as vehemently as you can, since you lack proof for your arguments.

Your lack of knowledge of anything but your own small niche is obvious to pretty much everyone else here. All of your answers are just the regurgitated propaganda you have been fed from birth.

You may say the same thing about me, but I live in the same country you do - who exactly indoctrinated me? For right or wrong I have looked at the evidence and formed my own conclusions.

You have no sources other than from people who hold the same views as you, or from sources that have nothing to do with the current topic.

I think the Iraq war counts as a pretty fair mass killing. Brilliant, we've spread the ridiculous capitalist democracy to Iraq and have killed far more than Saddam ever did.
That's true, not to mention the hundreds of thousands who were killed as a result of our sanctions, most of whom were children.

You're a laughing stock on politics here, judging from the number of people who hope you are merely a clever satirist.
 

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