RMT - Help me stop Suicune!

[burnpsy]

As the title says... Vaporeon was meant to be a counter for bulky water-types, Suicune is the only one that it doesn't tend to work on... any help is appreciated!

Note: With Haze, this may no longer be the case...

Graphix the PORYGON-Z @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Download
Nature: Hasty
IVs: 1/13/15/3/28/26
EVs: 6 HP, 252 Special Attack, 252 Speed
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Tri-Attack
-Dark Pulse

My lead. This is the basic Special Sweeper set for it as you may know... and for the third time, this pokemon is there to hit stuff... Choice Scarf to make up for its bad Base Speed and max itself above 400, all of the moves get nice coverage...

VAPOREON @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
Nature: Bold
IVs: 30/8/12/31/31/30
EVs: 192 HP, 254 Defense, 64 Special Attack
-Surf
-Toxic
-Haze-Wish

Vaporeon was added to counter the team's only weakness... only testing will tell me if this will be effective... The EV Spread was chenged a bit for Maximum Leftovers recovery (the IV was only 30, so yeah...). Haze stops stat-boosters in their tracks.

SWAMPERT @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
Nature: Brave
IVs: 30/31/23/31/31/24
EVs: 240 HP, 216 Defense, 54 Special Attack
-EarthQuake
-Ice Beam
-Surf
-Stealth Rock

It's MixPert. It sets up Stealth rock, counters dragons, OHKOs stuff, and wins games.

Glider the GLISCOR @ Leftovers
Trait: Hyper Cutter
Nature: Impish
IVs: 23/30/24/1/23/31
EVs: 212 HP, 12 Attack, 70 Defense, 216 Speed
-Aerial Ace
-Swords Dance
-Roost
-Earthquake

Click Here!

INFERNAPE @ Life Orb
Trait: Blaze
Nature: Naive
IVs: 26/31/18/31/19/31
EVs: 120 Attack, 196 Special Attack, 192 Speed
-ThunderPunch
-Close Combat
-Flamethrower
-Grass Knot

All-Out Mixed Sweeper Infernape... It's there for the hits it will dish out... you may have noticed that it has both ThunderPunch and Grass Knot, that's so ThunderPunch can get a nice hit on the lighter of the water types and most flying types will feel the pain too, obviously that makes Grass Knot's sole purpose for hitting the generic heavier pokemon that don't resist it... Vaporeon is no longer a safe wall against it...

Spike the LUCARIO @ Choice Specs
Trait: Inner Focus
Nature: Rash
IVs: 23/31/9/31/31/23
EVs: 6 Defense, 252 Special Attack, 252 Speed
-Aura Sphere
-Vacuum Wave
-Shadow Ball
-Dragon Pulse

Lucario is wearing its awesome shades to give it loads more offensive power, Fighting/Ghost is an unresisted combo, Dragon Pulse for anything else... Specs Vacuum Wave can actually be very deadly...

 

[Valantaro]

If you'd like, Roar could go >>> Toxic in order to stop all forms of Calm Mind Suicunes.

 

[burnpsy]

@Drew: I can assure you, this wasn't simply thrown together...

@Donovantx8/Valantaro: Everstone hit the nail on the head. and even with Roar, it would just come in later... I can't do enough damage to it before or after a Calm Mind... and based on the most recent stats I could find, I can estimate the amount of Calm Mind/Rest Suicune is at about 36.6% of all Suicune... still a threat...

 

[User 12783]

He is probably particularly talking about SubCMCune which has been on the rise lately. With Sub, Suicune is protected from Toxic which is really his only method of defeating Suicune. Sub + CM makes Suicune very powerful defensively and offensively making HP Electric not even worth it. Or CroCune.

As for your Infernape, I would suggest 120 Atk / 196 SpA / 192 Spe. With 120 Attack EVs you will OHKO Gyarados with ThunderPunch if you have Stealth Rocks on the field 66.67 percent of the time. You also only need 192 Spe to out-speed base 100 Pokemon, since Garchomp is now banned making it almost complete pointless to run 232 Spe EVs or over. The rest of the EVs go to SpA to boost that. Here is the full damage calc for Gyarados. If you need more just ask.

202 Atk vs 219 Def & 370 HP (75 base power): 264 - 312 (71.35% - 84.32%) | Multipliers: 1.3 * 2 * 2

Damage Results​

Min: Avg: Max:
Raw damage: 264 284 312
Percentages: 71.35% 76.76% 84.32%

OHKO, 2HKO & 3HKO odds​

Normal Sandstorm: Stealth Rock: Stealth Rock + Leftovers:
OHKO: 0% 0% 0% 66.67% 66.67%
2HKO: 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%
3HKO: 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%

As for Porygon-Z, it does not really fulfill the role of a lead as other special sweepers can for example (I'm using it purposely) Zapdos. Zapdos can scout, can paralyze an opposing lead, or deal a shitload of damage. Plain and simple. Porygon-Z can only do about 0.5 of that. I suggest you opt for Zapdos with a Choice Scarf as a lead instead. People such as gormenghast and Loki have used it very successfully and popularized it. The set for Zapdos would be Modest, 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe. You would have the moveset of T-Bolt / HP Ice / U-turn / T-Wave.

With Zapdos in, you have another weakness to Stealth Rock which isn't that good for a team in general. Togekiss is your Special Sweeper, but a mediocre one at that. Sure, Nasty Plot can raise its attack, but you don't even have Aura Sphere on it. You have two options here; A: you change T-Wave < Aura Sphere. B: you can switch Togekiss for Lucario. If you switch to Lucario you can have a great wall-breaker and a late game sweeper as well. It can also 2HKO Blissey. You also resist almost every priority move. You also have one less Stealth Rock weakness. Its your choice though, as Togekiss and Lucario are almost identical except for some typing advantages with Lucario. If you opt for Lucario, I suggest the SpecsLuke set in the analysis with a Modest nature.

 

[maddog]

To answer about your Sucuine problem, you can always just run some Special Defense EVs on Vaporeon and run Toxic or Roar, and I'm sure you wouldn't be having that problem to the extent that your having it. Vaporeon has a higher base Special Defense than Defense, so it can take shit like a Infernape's or Azelf's Grass Knot. If you use Wish and Roar, you won't be outclassed by Milotic either.

 

[Bogmire]

Stone Edge>Tpunch on infernape, IMO

Stone Edge will somewhat make up for the lack of hp ice since it hits salamence. Close Combat hits water types harder than a SE tpunch anyway, and the ones that aren't (slowbro) get hit harder by grass knot than tpunch. gyarados is hit by stone edge.

Your gliscor's EVs are messed up. it should have 56 atk and defense. 56 attack means you are gyaranteed to 2HKO max hp tyranitar and OHKO it after a swords dance.

 

[burnpsy]

@Sikh Assassin:

One small error made when reccomending the EVs for Infernape: It's Naughty, not Naive... That throws everything off... I also don't have Stealth Rock...

Zapdos, is just not an option... In every game I own that has Zapdos, it has been caught with a bad nature. I also don't have any way of obtaining one through trades, I just don't have the resources.

As for Lucario, the low defenses and speed just immediately scare me off. I don't understand how any of you manage to use it. Could someone explain?


@maddog: I already pointed out how Roar is only a temporary solution... They just have to knock out Vaporeon and bring Suicune back in...

@Bogmire: Stone Edge is a good move. However, having a low-PP, low accuracy move on a fragile pokemon just makes me have to disagree... Also, Salamence switch-ins simply cue me to bring in Swampert/Porygon-Z... Also, Gliscor was slightly changed to match the IVs... Attack had to cope with a drop... and it still doesn't have enough Defense to match the EVs in that link.

 

[burnpsy]

Cue 24-hour Bump! (The rules say I can...)

 

[Ninjadead]

One threat I noticed is Starmie(with Grass Knot), which could OHKO/2HKO and survive from every member except Porygon-Z. Vaporeons HP eletric has never been enough to OHKO my Starmie, so yeah, just putting that out there.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Hmm...intriguing ordeal. The main issue no one is getting here is that Suicune could simply just 'last poke' things, which both as Sub and the classic Resting CM ones will handle this team fine, baring repeated CH's that is.

What you could do here is add a Shymin if you want to continue your offense and not change up the team so much. The second it Rests, you're in for some heavy haxing, or you're able to just Leech Seed it and then proceed to Substall it. Shymin can easily go over Togekiss or PorygonZ as it can achieve what either can.

However, if you think Pressure is going to be an ass kicker, we can go with Celebi instead, who can Leech Seed as well, but have plentiful more of PP in attack moves with Grass Knot and can Recover shit off, where it can go over Infernape.

Or we can avoid grass Poke completely and use...TYRANITAR! CBTYranitar to be exact. Perhaps those special defensive heavy ones. First of all, sandstorm just completely helps the demise of those Substitute/Life Orb ones, seeing as how their life is seeping ever so quickly. Or, if it's the Rest variant, all you have to do is predict a Rest, and you get those free CB Crunches, which a couple should dent and you'll even go out on top if you can get it in before it gets more than 1 CM under it's belt. Those Def drops can surely help as well.

 

[Chrome]

As the title says... Vaporeon was meant to be a counter for bulky water-types, Suicune is the only one that it doesn't tend to work on... any help is appreciated!

Any and all changes will be made in Green.

Graphix the PORYGON-Z @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Adaptability
Nature: Hasty
IVs: 1/13/15/3/28/26
EVs: 6 HP, 252 Special Attack, 252 Speed
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Tri-Attack
-Shadow Ball

My lead. This is the basic Special Sweeper set for it as you may know... and for the third time, this pokemon is there to hit stuff... Choice Scarf to make up for its bad Base Speed and max itself above 400, all of the moves get nice coverage...

VAPOREON @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
Nature: Bold
IVs: 30/8/12/31/31/30
EVs: 192 HP, 254 Defense, 64 Special Attack
-Surf
-Toxic
-Protect
-Wish

Vaporeon was added to counter the team's only weakness... only testing will tell me if this will be effective... The EV Spread was chenged a bit for Maximum Leftovers recovery (the IV was only 30, so yeah...)

HP Electric really hurts Gyara but IMO Most Physical Threats can 2KO Vaporeon, (E.g. Lucario), So you don't want to use Protect, they hit you, they hit you again, you die with no Wish boost. It also helps for scouting attacks

SWAMPERT @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
Nature: Brave
IVs: 30/31/23/31/31/24
EVs: 240 HP, 180 Defense, 90 Special Defense
-EarthQuake
-Avalanche
-Sleep Talk
-Rest

A Sleep Talk Swampert, used for its possible tanking power and to counter the big Tyranitar weakness this team apparently has... Just spams Sleep Talk while asleep after using Rest and hitting with either of its two attacking moves... It's my best counter to Dragon Pokemon as they Fail to OHKO and die in one shot to a non-boosted Avalanche. That's its job in full...

I've personally never used this but Mixpert just seems so much better, You have Wish support from Vaporeon so I see no need to have Rest + Sleep Talk, Swampert can easily come in on Electric attacks aimed at Vaporeon

Glider the GLISCOR @ Leftovers
Trait: Hyper Cutter
Nature: Impish
IVs: 23/30/24/1/23/31
EVs: 212 HP, 12 Attack, 70 Defense, 216 Speed
-Aerial Ace
-Swords Dance
-Roost
-Earthquake

Click Here!

Blazer the INFERNAPE @ Life Orb
Trait: Blaze
Nature: Naughty
IVs: 0/25/16/22/25/26
EVs: 129 Attack, 129 Special Attack, 252 Speed
-ThunderPunch
-Close Combat
-Flamethrower
-Grass Knot

All-Out Mixed Sweeper Infernape... I couldn't get an Ice Hidden Power that was stronger than 45... so this will have to do... It's there for the hits it will dish out... you may have noticed that it has both ThunderPunch and Grass Knot, that's so ThunderPunch can get a nice hit on the lighter of the water types and most flying types will feel the pain too, obviously that makes Grass Knot's sole purpose for hitting the generic heavier pokemon that don't resist it... Vaporeon is no longer a safe wall against it... Another thing to note is that Infernape never gets to do anything during my matches...

Stone Edge > Thunderpunch. Otherwise you cannot really hit Zapdos

TOGEKISS @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
Nature: Modest
IVs: 28/7/31/29/31/31
EVs: 252 HP, 6 Defense, 252 Special Defense
-Nasty Plot
-Air Slash
-Roost
-Thunder Wave

Paraflinch FTW!!! The most common set for a Togekiss at the time of creation... Just to catch my opponent off-guard when they think they've figured out my battle plan... It's the only Pokemon that won't be Baton Passed in as it counteracts its moveset and it has decent defenses to begin with... So basically I put up a Nasty Plot and I sweep with Paraflinch...

I've made some changes in Underline, hope you find them useful. :)

 

[burnpsy]

@NinjaDead: How am I supposed to deal with Starmie? is it even used enough to be a threat?

@AreoBlacktyl: Those Pokemon would be good ideas, but I am limited to what I can get, and there are barely any Legendaries I have access to with good IVs/Natures, Event Pokemon just make it all that much harder... Tyranitar would also weaken me more than it helps...

@Chrome: Vaporeon can't remove HP Electric or it becomes totally useless at doing what it was added to do... Defeat bulky water type like Gyarados (the main problems used to be both Gyarados and Suicune, Vappy Covers Gyarados nicely...). Adaptability Porygon-Z is less useful, Shadow Ball has less coverage, the entire point of Swampert was to OHKO all Dragons with Avalanche, and I already commented on Stone Edge earlier.

 

[Automatic]

Our teams are slightly similar, mine was built with my distaste for CM Suicine in mind.

I dropped HP Elec for Haze on Vaporeon, which people surprisingly don't expect. I use Encore to encore CM or Rest then I switch to my Togekiss and start NP'ing after a Sub(or in your case Twave). Easy +4 Paraflinchhax. Or you can setup with Gliscor and pound out +4 EQ's.

 

[burnpsy]

Thank you, Automatic!

I can't think of a bigger change than this revamp I got... read through it all, you may find some changes!

*legal bump*

I will be posting a Warstory with this team's fixes soon, in case you need to see how it performs...

 

[dizzleman22_main!]

I would say that your only weakness is not Bulky waters-most teams have this, so its not that huge of an issue, but you honestly have a serious LO MixApe weakness aside from Vaporeon, because Grass knot KOs Swampert, HP ICe kills Gliscor, Close COmbat/Fire Blast for Luc, Close Combat for PZ. THis is all speculation though because PZ could outspeed-but just pointing out some basic stuff. Like, if the opponent has a good wall breaker and Paralysis support, then MixApe could tear up your Gliscor, Swampert, PZ, and Luc in the late game. Now that you have switched to Togekiss, the weakness is remedied but only partially. BUT-i havent seen many MixApes lately so your team is great. No obvious type weakness except for double Grass weakness. WEll, slight Bolt Beam weakness, BotlBeam hits everything but Swampert and Porygonz for super effective, however PZ is so fragile everything counts as super effective ^^. Also i notice you only have one poke that can have a chance at easily taking down Cress, your PZ, due to Shadow Ball. However if PZ is gone, then a CM Cress can Cm up because you have no phasing, and Proceed to happily Boltbeam the rest of your team. Your only chance would be to Paraflinch to death with Togekiss. But again, all speculation, as i dont see many CMcresses these days. Good luck, and i hope you have found my advice helpful. Great job.

 

[burnpsy]

I would say that your only weakness is not Bulky waters-most teams have this, so its not that huge of an issue, but you honestly have a serious LO MixApe weakness aside from Vaporeon, because Grass knot KOs Swampert, HP ICe kills Gliscor, Close COmbat/Fire Blast for Luc, Close Combat for PZ. THis is all speculation though because PZ could outspeed-but just pointing out some basic stuff. Like, if the opponent has a good wall breaker and Paralysis support, then MixApe could tear up your Gliscor, Swampert, PZ, and Luc in the late game. Now that you have switched to Togekiss, the weakness is remedied but only partially. BUT-i havent seen many MixApes lately so your team is great. No obvious type weakness except for double Grass weakness. WEll, slight Bolt Beam weakness, BotlBeam hits everything but Swampert and Porygonz for super effective, however PZ is so fragile everything counts as super effective ^^. Also i notice you only have one poke that can have a chance at easily taking down Cress, your PZ, due to Shadow Ball. However if PZ is gone, then a CM Cress can Cm up because you have no phasing, and Proceed to happily Boltbeam the rest of your team. Your only chance would be to Paraflinch to death with Togekiss. But again, all speculation, as i dont see many CMcresses these days. Good luck, and i hope you have found my advice helpful. Great job.

MixApe would have a speed tie with my MixApe, not to mention that PZ is GURANTEED to outspeed if it's not paralyzed. CM Cress would be dealt with the same way as all other stat-uppers, who needs PHazing when you have Haze itself?

Thanks for the criticism...