np: Latias - Don't Do the Dew! (NOTE: explanation of Skymin's fate within)

[Veedrock]

I don't see how they could possibly be "the same Suspect twice" if Latios will almost assuredly perform most offensive sets better than Latias does right now, nor do I see some sort of pro-OU bias somehow showing up in a vote due to their similarities. If Latias just barely became OU at the end of the test after being used as an offensive threat almost exclusively, then why exactly should we be worried about being biased towards OU, when testing something that's pretty much just "a better version of the same pokemon"?


Either way, you may not have considered that successfully voting Latias into the OU tier means that it will also be present during our Latios test, and we'll effectively end up testing both of them at the same time. The circumstances will be significantly different.

If it is a slim margin, then I'm not worried about Latios' vote. But a lot of people say that Latias looks OU (I've seen very little talk otherwise). It's a wideswept margin that I'm worried about.

The bias I mentioned wasn't meant to be a preset vote towards Latias' vote, but a "been here done that" kind of ordeal. Latios will perform the sets better; I have no doubt about that (in fact, it's what I'm afraid of). It's the general perception of a special dragon powerhouse in the metagame will be deja vu rather than a real suspect test. It won't impact the metagame much more than Latias if any (having already have dealt with a near identical threat, people will know what's coming). This advanced preparation may sway voters away from seeing a true suspect rather than seeing an everyday pokemon.

The way things are going, they're looking to be "the same suspect." Latios is more powerful, true, but he's not doing much that Latias isn't now. This may very well just be my opinion/prediction, but I don't generally jump the gun on these things.

While you do have a point about both of them possibly being present during the second test, chances are that Latias is vacant on the suspect ladder (the very reason why the test was split in the first place).

 

[Jumpman16]

the chances are 100% because we always test suspects in isolation, if latias gets voted ou it is going to be on the standard ladder until stage 3

and the "been there done that" phenomenon you describe is unavoidable—i actually think it will help bring down the "overcentralization" phenomenon people are afraid of. if latias and latios are so similar then people shouldn't have to change their teams and playing style so much to win on the standard ladder, and there will be less risk of extended overpreparation or whatever you wanna call it

 

[Trust]

I've been playing in the Suspect ladder during the month, and I have a strong point of view about Latias: it's good, but everything that she can do, another pokémon can do it better. I will explain it:

If you want a good Calm Minder, Latias works wonders, but Suicune is simply superior. If you want to defeat Blissey, you must use Refresh or Safeguard, but if you are worried about Blissey, Mismagius is your best Calm Mind user.

If you are looking for Wish support, Vaporeon or Blissey do it better in my opinion, and if you want a special wall, Blissey is still the best one.

A support set could work, but Gardevoir(Wish, Will-o-Wisp, Hypnosis, Thunder-Wave, Trace...), Uxie(Thunder-Wave, Knock Off, Dual Screen, Yawn...) or Cresselia(Thunder-Wave, Flame Orb set, great defenses and HP...) are sturdier than Latias.

Finally, a sweeper set. This is the only type of Latias which could shine, because it's like a better Specs Salamence, with Trick, and without double ice weak. But Dark and Ghost weakness are really annoying, and Pursuit users finish her. Furthermore, Blissey stops it with ease, and after a Draco Meteor, you can use her to set up.


To sum up, my opinion about Latias is that OU is her tier without Soul Dew.

 

[cim]

That's a chunk of my Uber argument, that it can't be too powerful for OU because other non-Suspects do most of what it does better. Of course the converse isn't true.

 

[Legacy Raider]

In response to Trust, there is one set that I have found Latias does better than any pokemon in OU, and that is the dual screens set. Sure there are faster dual screeners (Azelf, Alakazam) and bulkier screeners (Bronzong), but nothing else in OU combines such excellent speed with those above average defesnes and a reliable 50% recovery move. Usually, while getting its job done, a dual screener will take 3 hits and either be killed or be left at very little health. Latias, on the other hand, can set up Reflect and Light Screen at her leisure, Recover off the damage, and then switch out, all to ready to replenish the barriers when they run out.

I'm not saying it's a particularly bad or broken thing, but I just wanted to point out that there is an 'exclusive' niche for Latias in OU, so to speak.

 

[Tangerine]

I've been playing in the Suspect ladder during the month, and I have a strong point of view about Latias: it's good, but everything that she can do, another pokémon can do it better. I will explain it:

That's a chunk of my Uber argument, that it can't be too powerful for OU because other non-Suspects do most of what it does better. Of course the converse isn't true.

"Mew isn't uber, for any set you can find a Pokemon that does this better"

Your argument, Trust, CIM, relies on the assumption that all it needs is "one broken set" to be "broken". You guys need a way to tackle the fact that this makes Latias somewhat "unpredictable" and how that also affects game play, or somehow rectify the fact that the many good sets that Latias can utilize does not make it broken.

Secondly, I'm not sure if I "buy" the fact that the OU Pokemons really "do it better". Specsmence has that terrible SR Weak, for example, and Pursuit still sort of owns it. Suicune and Mismagius does the CM set well, but Suicune can be stopped through Other pokemon too, and mismagius has to rely on HP Fighting for type coverage, etc. Vaporen has that Toxic Spikes weak and has to use up 2 slots to "guarantee recovery", etc etc. Sure, it "does something similar", but doesn't mean they are replaceable parts that you can just switch in whenever you like. Latias draws in different Pokemon than Suicune and Mismagius for example and thus creates completely different teams - "how can people use this to their advantage"?, and if they do "does the presence of Latias give them too much of an edge"? What kind of teams are gaining dominance? How is Latias being used, and with what Pokemon, and is this slanting the game in anyway? Is Latias making any other Pokemon broken "too easily"? etc etc.

In the end that argument can be seen as a bit shallow and it needs to be refined that bit. Don't look at just one Pokemon, but look at what it does to teams and what it does to the game itself.

 

[cim]

tl;dr (of my own post, not Tangerine's): How do you argue something is not in a state that has no semblance of a definition?

That's the other chunk of my Uber argument. I put in the first half as I was trying to argue that it didn't have an excessive amount of power.

To be honest I'm not really sure how to argue that something is not Uber when the term Uber has no definition, so I tried to say that its power was comparable to other OUs plus the effect it had on the OU metagame was neither excessive nor led to overly restrictive teambuilding in order to function. Basically, I tried to say that I think that it is not uber because it does not excessively restrict one's team options more than most other Standard Pokémon.

It's really hard for me to grope around and try to get an Uber argument, though. The whole concept seems kind of abstract and hard to work with. Is there even a non-objective definition to work with? It's like I'm not even exactly sure what I _am_ arguing. The philosphy says that we ban things when they are "far too powerful", and it's hard to think of how to objectively show my subjective gauge of an Uber's power.

Plus I'm pretty sure you guys won't take "I have come across nothing to indicate that Latias is somehow excessively harmful to the Standard metagame."

 

[ViVi]

The only difference Ive made in my team is making Banded Flygon Jolly instead of Adamant, but that wasnt only to outspeed neutral speed Latias..so Im agreeing with Chris's "Latias isnt having a huge impact on the metagame so its hard to say its uber"

The suspect test ends the 19th of January right?

 

[TVboyCanti]

The only latias that has made waves is the dual screen. The other sets already have answers in the current OU metagame as OU has had to deal with them in the form of other OU pokemon.

However, as Legacy Raider said, there is no pokemon currently in OU that is as bulky and fast and has reliable 50% recovery. The speed is the big thing for me since it allows latias to actually switch in on its counters and put up a screen before they can hit latias with the right attack, something cresselia can't do.

While playing on the suspect, I've only found 3 ways to deal with dual screening latias, trick-choice, toxic, and thunder wave. trick is obvious. toxic deals 36% damage over three turns (light clay instead of leftovers) and negates latias's 50% recovery move, making it easier to kill the next time it comes in. Thunder Wave makes the slow strategy of dual screening even slower and makes latias easier to taunt. The last two strategies are beatable if Latias uses psycho-shift as its fourth move, though none of the people using dual screen have been experienced enough to use that, going with the obligatory dragon pulse instead. Latias can also tech trick itself to rid itself of a choice scarf.

Currently I believe latias is OU, but I also believe that its dual screen strategy is not being used to its fullest potential.

 

[cim]

The only latias that has made waves is the dual screen. The other sets already have answers in the current OU metagame as OU has had to deal with them in the form of other OU pokemon.

However, as Legacy Raider said, there is no pokemon currently in OU that is as bulky and fast and has reliable 50% recovery. The speed is the big thing for me since it allows latias to actually switch in on its counters and put up a screen before they can hit latias with the right attack, something cresselia can't do.

If you're seriously suggesting that Latias can switch in on Tyranitar then Reflect, but Cresselia somehow can't with superior defenses and same >244 Speed, then maybe you need to rethink... something. Your serious suggestion needs work.

While playing on the suspect, I've only found 3 ways to deal with dual screening latias, trick-choice, toxic, and thunder wave. trick is obvious. toxic deals 36% damage over three turns (light clay instead of leftovers) and negates latias's 50% recovery move, making it easier to kill the next time it comes in. Thunder Wave makes the slow strategy of dual screening even slower and makes latias easier to taunt. The last two strategies are beatable if Latias uses psycho-shift as its fourth move, though none of the people using dual screen have been experienced enough to use that, going with the obligatory dragon pulse instead. Latias can also tech trick itself to rid itself of a choice scarf.

Currently I believe latias is OU, but I also believe that its dual screen strategy is not being used to its fullest potential.

Latias isn't _that_ much better than Jirachi, Bronzong, or the like at it...

 

[Tangerine]

tl;dr (of my own post, not Tangerine's): How do you argue something is not in a state that has no semblance of a definition?

That's the other chunk of my Uber argument. I put in the first half as I was trying to argue that it didn't have an excessive amount of power.

To be honest I'm not really sure how to argue that something is not Uber when the term Uber has no definition, so I tried to say that its power was comparable to other OUs plus the effect it had on the OU metagame was neither excessive nor led to overly restrictive teambuilding in order to function. Basically, I tried to say that I think that it is not uber because it does not excessively restrict one's team options more than most other Standard Pokémon.

It's really hard for me to grope around and try to get an Uber argument, though. The whole concept seems kind of abstract and hard to work with. Is there even a non-objective definition to work with? It's like I'm not even exactly sure what I _am_ arguing. The philosphy says that we ban things when they are "far too powerful", and it's hard to think of how to objectively show my subjective gauge of an Uber's power.

Plus I'm pretty sure you guys won't take "I have come across nothing to indicate that Latias is somehow excessively harmful to the Standard metagame."

You argue it by making a complete argument. My response to you was simply that the argument needs to be completed - I pointed out potential flaws and things that you need to consider in the argument to make it more concrete.

Don't try to simply "argue definitions" here, I mean, it's difficult trying to think of a concrete encompassing definition. Just make sure when you are arguing, you think of other possibilities and consider them within your argument. If you're trying to find a definition to work with and say "see, by definition this is true" then the chances are it's going to pretty shallow. Just reason your thoughts well and make your point clear. Be concrete, not by "definition" but by reason.

 

[TVboyCanti]

If you're seriously suggesting that Latias can switch in on Tyranitar then Reflect, but Cresselia somehow can't with superior defenses and same >244 Speed, then maybe you need to rethink... something. Your serious suggestion needs work.

No, I guess I didn't mean switch in on Tyranitar. I was mostly trying to point out Latias's 50% recovery moves, which, combined with its 256 minimum base speed, will make Latias the best Dual Screener in OU.

Comparing Latiases high min 256 speed and access to 50% recovery and Cresselias Lugia-esque bulk but more moderate speed and lack of reliable recovery, I would have to agree with anyone who says they are about equal as Dual Screeners.

But then Cresselia can't really run Calm Mind, Choice Specs or Mixed Sweeper the way Latias can, can it? I'm not saying that being able to run a lot of effective sets makes Latias Uber, I'm saying that this diversity will make Latias able to consistantly hold a spot in the top 15 of OU while Cresselia continues its slide down through the ranks.

Again, I am not saying that any of these qualities makes Latias Uber, but I'm not going to undercut Latias's utility by saying things like "it can't get a CM going and its got 4 moveslot syndrome, it sucks" or "each set it can run has another pokemon that can run it better, I'm not impressed".

 

[QibingZero]

I think the viability of Latias running a strict support set is extremely important, actually. Obviously there are thoughts back to Deoxys' dual screen set, but it's a lot more than just that.

If Latias is able to put screens up as reliably as it's able to run both Life Orb and CM sets, 'Uber' starts looking awfully valid. Unpredictability is huge, and if you can get screens down based on Latias' sweeping potential and get out alive, just to come back in and Recover and maybe do it again...

Well, maybe I need to ditch my ideas of Wish support and start running a screen or two.

 

[Peachfuzz]

So far, even if the Dual Screen set is the most problematic, it is still pretty manageable. That is one of the more common variants (along with the newly popular Psycho Shift sets). It may be just the players or the teams, but most times the dual screens are set up Latias dies trying to get everything up or people can't keep up the offensive tempo and the screens fade before they know it.

I personally love the unpredictability of Latias. It is a different kind of unpredictability than Lucario or Salamence in which a poke will be severely injured or fainted if you guess wrong. With Latias, she will rarely sweep your team or break down walls, but she will force you to make smart plays so you don't get ruined by the other sweepers that she so awesomely supports.

Something else: what happens if we do not meet the requirements simply because there are not enough people playing the Suspect ladder? The new UU test has stolen everyone's interest, and there are only a few people playing the suspect ladder. I know the new UU test is awesome and a complete revamp of the UU/BL tier is important, but the Latias vote is coming up pretty soon, and I want to be able to vote...

 

[Aeolus]

This test will be drawing to a close very soon. Get your numbers where they need to be soon if you are interested in voting.

 

[Syberia]

I, too, think the UU test just stole Lati@s thunder

 

[ViVi]

Pretty much everytime I get on the ladder i battle the same guy over and over which gets annoying. eff the new UU!!!

Edit - Waiting 15 minutes to get a battle is cooltoo.

 

[TAY]

I am standing by my original argument that Latias causes the game to be overcentralized around Dragons and Steels. Latias itself has twice as many usages as the next highest pokemon, so even though the number is likely inflated due to novelty, it would probably be the most used pokemon regardless, and the strong centralization towards Dragon and Steel would still be here.

Anyone who played the ladder has probably seen that just about every successful team is running Latias / Salamence / Scizor, and at least one of the last slots is filled by one of the remaining Steels - 5 of which were in the top ten of the usage chart. I used a team consisting of three Dragons and 3 Steels - almost a novelty team - throughout the entire test, and for the entire test it has been hugely succcessful. The only teams that could consistently beat me were ones carrying extremely specialized things like Shed Shell Scizor (saw it several times), Sub / HP Fire Latias, and Reflect / T-wave Celebi. More matches than I could count came down to whose Magnezone won the speed tie with HP Fire, even in the early game, which reminds me of those stupid turn 1 speed ties between two deoxy-e where I would always say "coin flip for game". I have also been blindly switching out of Latias and Salamence into Magnezone, and it has been working, since every team runs 2+ Steels. This is not a fun metagame.

I held off on posting here because I wanted to see if the metagame would change and steel types wouldn't be running rampant in order to stop not only Latias and Salamence but also each other, but it hasn't changed at all. The entire game was Latias / Mence / Scizor with a touch of Heatran / Jirachi / Metagross / Magnezone / Tyranitar at the start, and it is the same thing now. I have probably played on the suspect ladder more than almost everyone who has posted in this thread; I have certainly been more successful there than anyone posting in this thread - so I hope what I am saying carries some weight. I still will be massively upset if Latias goes to OU, because the metagame is that terrible. Please guys, you need to look at the bigger picture here, not just what certain Latias sets do. Go play a few games, and see what your opponents use, and see what you need to use to counter it. I give you a Men's Wearhouse guarantee that you will not ever need to use any pokemon out of the top 9 on the suspect usage chart to win. That's 5 steels, salamence, latias, tyranitar, and gyarados. Nothing besides those is really relevant except maybe Kingdra and Celebi. This metagame is overcentralized, it is predictable, and it isn't getting any better. I swear every person who votes OU will regret it in a month, once they realize that the metagame is not changing, and that we're stuck with this Dragon / Steel / Tyranitar bullshit until stage three.

 

[Veedrock]

Just wait until Latios rolls around. >__< And like I said, if Latias gets OU by a large margin (which I do see happening), people will apply the Latias mindset to Latios and give him a large opportunity to make OU even if he is a huge threat. I'm not going to repeat my entire rant though.

Like you Tay, I used 3 dragons. I only used 2 steels though. I have similar observations (but clearly a lot less success :P). Now I'm not saying that I want Latias to be uber, because I do feel that things will balance themselves out shortly after the "hype" is over and done (and if it does not, then read ahead). This "centralization" around steels and dragons isn't Latias' fault. Even the standard ladder has this template, this mold. Why should Latias be shot back up for a happening that was beginning before her test and that was not entirely her fault? Why is she to blame more than, say, Salamence or Kingdra (my other dragons)? This was brought up in a discussion about "Triple Dragon" strategy a while ago. If Triple Dragon dominated the metagame and destroyed everything, why should the newest dragon be to blame? The others are just as much a culprit as the new one, yet s/he takes the blame because it was supposedly fine without them. But was it really?

While I do agree that something needs done, I don't think the blame should be pinned on the suspect.

 

[Tangerine]

I am standing by my original argument that Latias causes the game to be overcentralized around Dragons and Steels. Latias itself has twice as many usages as the next highest pokemon, so even though the number is likely inflated due to novelty, it would probably be the most used pokemon regardless, and the strong centralization towards Dragon and Steel would still be here.

But we wonder if this is because of SDS's point that he made before the suspect test. It does make sense - People will only battle with Latias in the Suspect Ladder, and if they dont' want to play with Latias, they will go battle in the standard ladder.

The power of the "default" option is that most people will "stick" to it (no Latias) and will want to go to suspect only to use Latias and so I don't think you can make an (accurate) statement about Latias just by looking at the suspect test. I think however, we have seen what Latias is capable of through the suspect ladder, but I dont think you can make statements like that.

Although yes, I found it hilarious that Toxic Spikes was almost useless on the suspect ladder :(

 

[cim]

I think the test showed what the stats will look like in OU if it is Uber, but doesn't tell us anything beyond that. The stats show what happens to the metagame if Latias causes it to excessively centralize around stopping it; the inherent nature of the test forced this situation to arise independent of Latias's power. Basically, stats are useless here, and it's likely metagame experiences are too other than "does it sweep when it's ridiculously beneficial to overprepare for it due to the encouragement of its use by everyone"; if it does then perhaps something is wrong with it, I dunno.

I'm sure SDS is probably sitting back, waiting to post "I told you so!" here.

I really, really hope I can squeeze in some more time here. I haven't been able to use Suspect as much as I can due to the FIRST Robotics season, and UU has been distracting me too.

 

[kd24]

Although yes, I found it hilarious that Toxic Spikes was almost useless on the suspect ladder :(

thats odd i would have thought that rest + st careful drapion with toxic spikes and crunch would be very good on suspect as it helps wear down blissey and tar (tar only by ts) and counters latias. obviously scizor would still be a threat though but thats why we use rotom-h!

 

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by TAY
I am standing by my original argument that Latias causes the game to be overcentralized around Dragons and Steels. Latias itself has twice as many usages as the next highest pokemon, so even though the number is likely inflated due to novelty, it would probably be the most used pokemon regardless, and the strong centralization towards Dragon and Steel would still be here.

This is a pretty piss poor argument, seeing as how you really HAVE to use Steels and Dragons to win on the Suspect ladder /sarcasm. C'mon TAY, just because you can make a novelty team like that doesn't mean its required to win on Suspect. Many people have used Standard teams unchanged and do fine. Also, fucking Latias will NOT be the most used pokemon regardless. It is only the most used because it is the Latias Suspect Test!!!!

Originally Posted by TAY
Anyone who played the ladder has probably seen that just about every successful team is running Latias / Salamence / Scizor, and at least one of the last slots is filled by one of the remaining Steels - 5 of which were in the top ten of the usage chart. I used a team consisting of three Dragons and 3 Steels - almost a novelty team - throughout the entire test, and for the entire test it has been hugely succcessful. The only teams that could consistently beat me were ones carrying extremely specialized things like Shed Shell Scizor (saw it several times), Sub / HP Fire Latias, and Reflect / T-wave Celebi. More matches than I could count came down to whose Magnezone won the speed tie with HP Fire, even in the early game, which reminds me of those stupid turn 1 speed ties between two deoxy-e where I would always say "coin flip for game". I have also been blindly switching out of Latias and Salamence into Magnezone, and it has been working, since every team runs 2+ Steels. This is not a fun metagame.

Bullshit. Salamence / Scizor / Latias are not on every team, just Latias. And just because you use a team like that don't mean its the only team that works.

Originally Posted by TAY
I give you a Men's Wearhouse guarantee that you will not ever need to use any pokemon out of the top 9 on the suspect usage chart to win

Show me a metagame where that HAS NOT been the case???

 

[kd24]

tay is absolutely right imo, this metagame is so boring with latias, sure it is counterable but every team is going to consist of scizor / latias / mence / metagross if it does go ou. i dont want to hear the "well its suspect ladder, latias always will be used" i was perfectly able to battle without deoxys-s on the standard ladder when he was being tested there. And so were plenty of others. Once Latias becomes official OU, he will be on the same team, I am definitely seeing it happen.

basically games on the suspect ladder are "who can keep their steels / dragons alive the longest in case a latias shows up". i definitely dont want to see this thing become ou, it overcentralizes it way too much.

i cant even get a consistent rating because every match is basically the same so its almost impossible the build up a long streak / keep a consistent win percentage.

 

[lilyhollow]

i cant even get a consistent rating because every match is basically the same so its almost impossible the build up a long streak / keep a consistent win percentage.

How do you rationalize this next to TAY's claim that he's basically just raped the ladder all month? I'm not calling anyone out or anything, I'm just asking.