np: UU - A New Beginning

[Cynthia]

I have used hail teams and faced many hail teams and found it to be a very effective strategy overall. Both offensive and defensive hail teams have a lot of potential and it is a fairly easy strategy to execute.

Snover would not necessarily be banned if Abomasnow was. Abomasnow is good for more things than just Snow Warning, it has a large movepool and a solid statistical spread. Snover has very limited offense and if the weather were to be changed, has trouble switching into anything with its low defenses. I would be interested to see if forcing hail teams to use Snover over Abomasnow would significantly decrease their effectiveness.

As for my part, I've found that there are counters to hail teams, but most of the counters are fairly highly centralized and without them beating hail teams is extremely difficult.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Seeing people with ban lists that are 10 Pokemon long is actually quite terrifying. There is one thing that I don't think people understand; we need to ban as little as possible, not as much as possible.

Ideally, we shouldn't have to ban anything, but some people just want to ban things, just for the sake of it.

Check out this thread. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11508 This is what we do NOT want to happen ever again. Some posts there are absolutely cringe-worthy. Some posts here are steering towards that direction, all over again.

Anyway, about Abmoasnow, etc, some people are providing fairly decent arguements as to why it might be broken, others aren't. At any rate, I'm personally leaning towards 'It's not broken', but, obviously, I'll be changing my mind if I have reason to in the future.

And, I'm really worried that people will try and ban things unneccessarily. Did we not all see the Shaymin-S vote?

 

[Bologo]

Firstly, please use some reading comprehension. A pokemon being "overcentralized" isnt really opinion. And stop putting words in my mouth, i never once used the word "Stupid". I was pointing out, that if people were actively playing with a standard team, are comfortable with the general aspect of tiers, and have good judgement would realize, these teams are quite dominant if not broken, or at least a suspect based on usage. Overcentralizing, i thought, meant that an aspect of the metagame was getting used so much, and was so strong that you need to effectively change your team to stop this overly used aspect of the metagame.

Just because something has high usage doesn't make it a suspect. There's no definition for "overcentralizing", so you shouldn't be trying to throw it around as a well-known term, because it really isn't. Your definition of it isn't very good. If something's strong and is used a lot, of course you might have to change your team. That goes for any good pokemon.

Also, you're still saying that if we don't agree with you that "these teams are quite dominant, if not broken, or at least a suspect based on usage", then we're wrong. I don't know where you're getting that idea from, because we're not even halfway through the first part of the test, so I don't know how you can already say that something is so broken that no one can ever convince you otherwise.

I think you also missed alot of my post. Hail teams ARE beatable. I have beaten alot of hail teams, especially the ones who dont spam protect. Otherwise i couldnt have gotten to 6th on the Leaderboard. The point is, they are getting used to much, while fitting the definition of a bannable aspect of a metagame as is shown in the Uber thread. They unbalance the metagame, its really not just me who thinks it.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. They're used too much so they should be banned? I don't see us banning Sandstorm teams in Standard, even though they're used quite a bit, so why in the world should we be doing that in UU?

Also, a well played Hail team SHOULDNT lose, but they do because people can either gimp their team to carry a counter(if there are any surfire ones) or the other player just plays better, while having a balanced team, they can STILL lose. My point is, the average hail team should usually beat the average standard team, assuming equal skill levels.

A well played team in general SHOULDN'T lose, but they do because people can either gimp their team to carry a counter...etc etc etc.

 

[Heysup]

I have used hail teams and faced many hail teams and found it to be a very effective strategy overall. Both offensive and defensive hail teams have a lot of potential and it is a fairly easy strategy to execute.

Snover would not necessarily be banned if Abomasnow was. Abomasnow is good for more things than just Snow Warning, it has a large movepool and a solid statistical spread. Snover has very limited offense and if the weather were to be changed, has trouble switching into anything with its low defenses. I would be interested to see if forcing hail teams to use Snover over Abomasnow would significantly decrease their effectiveness.

As for my part, I've found that there are counters to hail teams, but most of the counters are fairly highly centralized and without them beating hail teams is extremely difficult.

This is a much clearer and much less frusterated and angry way of saying what im trying to say. Thank you Cynthia :D.

While i disagree with your snover comment, I think its definately closer to what im trying to say, than the words people are putting in my mouth.

Seeing people with ban lists that are 10 Pokemon long is actually quite terrifying. There is one thing that I don't think people understand; we need to ban as little as possible, not as much as possible.

Ideally, we shouldn't have to ban anything, but some people just want to ban things, just for the sake of it.

Check out this thread. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11508 This is what we do NOT want to happen ever again. Some posts there are absolutely cringe-worthy. Some posts here are steering towards that direction, all over again.

Anyway, about Abmoasnow, etc, some people are providing fairly decent arguements as to why it might be broken, others aren't. At any rate, I'm personally leaning towards 'It's not broken', but, obviously, I'll be changing my mind if I have reason to in the future.

And, I'm really worried that people will try and ban things unneccessarily. Did we not all see the Shaymin-S vote?

While i agree, we should ban as little as possible. We should definately not hesitate to ban things that need to be. If this list IS 10 pokemon long(which i doubt), than so be it.

Also, the Advanced should be a guideline, not something to avoid, they are near-flawless imo.

Just because something has high usage doesn't make it a suspect. There's no definition for "overcentralizing", so you shouldn't be trying to throw it around as a well-known term, because it really isn't. Your definition of it isn't very good. If something's strong and is used a lot, of course you might have to change your team. That goes for any good pokemon.

Point taken, this is to a certain exctent that it will become a suspect is what i mean.
But my point still stands "if something is too strong, and many people are using it making it effect the metagame in a negative manner".

Also, you're still saying that if we don't agree with you that "these teams are quite dominant, if not broken, or at least a suspect based on usage", then we're wrong. I don't know where you're getting that idea from, because we're not even halfway through the first part of the test, so I don't know how you can already say that something is so broken that no one can ever convince you otherwise.

Yea, how long did it take for people to realize Rayquaza was Uber? It doesnt have to take a long time to realize something is broken. Especially since i have played alot of this new UU. Refer to Cynthia's post as its a much clearer version of what im trying to say. The statement "Hail is no easier to use effectively than a standard team, and does not have a fairly clear advantage against standard teams.", i believe that to be wrong, yes.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. They're used too much so they should be banned? I don't see us banning Sandstorm teams in Standard, even though they're used quite a bit, so why in the world should we be doing that in UU?

The answer is simple, because they arent broken. Thats really not to hard to understand. To add to this, pokemon in OU are strong enough to deal with these Hail threats.

A well played team in general SHOULDN'T lose, but they do because people can either gimp their team to carry a counter...etc etc etc.

Thats really not clear at all. A player of equal skill with a standard team vs another of the same, should be 50/50. Hail makes it more to the effect of 60/40, or even 70/30.


I am dropping this topic of Hail Teams.

 

[Tleilax]

Seeing people with ban lists that are 10 Pokemon long is actually quite terrifying. There is one thing that I don't think people understand; we need to ban as little as possible, not as much as possible.

Ideally, we shouldn't have to ban anything, but some people just want to ban things, just for the sake of it.

Check out this thread. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11508 This is what we do NOT want to happen ever again. Some posts there are absolutely cringe-worthy. Some posts here are steering towards that direction, all over again.

Anyway, about Abmoasnow, etc, some people are providing fairly decent arguements as to why it might be broken, others aren't. At any rate, I'm personally leaning towards 'It's not broken', but, obviously, I'll be changing my mind if I have reason to in the future.

And, I'm really worried that people will try and ban things unneccessarily. Did we not all see the Shaymin-S vote?

Conversely, we shouldn't be afraid to ban things that are overpowering either. People seem to have learned the wrong lessons from the Skymin test. There's nothing wrong with banning things if they are found to be overpowered. We must simply make sure it's for good reasons. In the recent pages I have seen very little in the way of people "wanting to ban things for the heck of it". Most have been thought out and have sound reasoning, even if you disagree with it. Being too afraid to ban things can be as bad as being too ban happy. We need to try and keep the happy medium.

 

[Cynthia]

Seeing people with ban lists that are 10 Pokemon long is actually quite terrifying. There is one thing that I don't think people understand; we need to ban as little as possible, not as much as possible.

Ideally, we shouldn't have to ban anything, but some people just want to ban things, just for the sake of it.

Check out this thread. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11508 This is what we do NOT want to happen ever again. Some posts there are absolutely cringe-worthy. Some posts here are steering towards that direction, all over again.

Anyway, about Abmoasnow, etc, some people are providing fairly decent arguements as to why it might be broken, others aren't. At any rate, I'm personally leaning towards 'It's not broken', but, obviously, I'll be changing my mind if I have reason to in the future.

And, I'm really worried that people will try and ban things unneccessarily. Did we not all see the Shaymin-S vote?

Considering the size of the tier, a ban list of 10 Pokemon really is not that much. I really don't see the issue with having that many suspects. You seem to be inherently biased against banning anything, which is kind of an issue. Also, there were a lot of reasons to ban Shaymin-S and that's what the qualified voters went for, so acting like that was a debacle is not terribly accurate.

 

[Chou Toshio]

For all those quick to point out the obvious goal of banning as little as possible, I want to re-emphasize the point that we went ahead with this BL-UU combination not expecting to find a balanced tier, and full-well expecting to have to make initial bans based on play-testing.

Since then nUU has proved itself to be surprisigly balanced for a group of pokemon tossed together simply on the basis of what is not OU based on usage. Despite this though, I would like players to keep in mind that this is a tier of pokemon who have been put together without any semblance of organization or any large degree of experience among the many players now testing it.

While I would love to see that none of the pokemon are worth banning (and I do believe that the majority of the names people are putting forth are a bit exhagerated), we should consider banning as a serious and realistic part of the process-- a measure that we are hestitant to, but are not afraid of using.

When folks say that we should consider Abomasnow for banning, we should seriously consider it-- without trying to "shame" those suggesting any bans by cries or accusitions that they are trying to start some idiotic witch hunt.

 

[kamikazeking05]

i havent seen anything as overpowered as what people keep explaining. Raikou leads screw me up though.

And it should be known that some thigs will eventually be banned when they're found broken, but thats to be expected.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Yes, things can be banned, if needs be, but the main issue is, they shouldn't be banned, if they don't need to be. That's what I'm worried about.

And I guess you're all correct, 10 BL Pokemon wouldn't be so bad, considering we just to have about 50, but it's not the ideal situation, like a few people (not everyone, I hasten to add) think it is, and are trying to aim for.

I appreciate it may feel strange for some that there are base 600s, NFEs, auto-weathers, etc. in UU, and that if we didn't need a BL tier, it'd be even weirder, but we should try our best to make it as small as possible, and get out of the mindset that UU must resemble what it did half a decade ago.

Also, I'm not scared of having a BL tier, I just see it as a last resort, not something that we all have to fill. I believe that's how we all should be thinking about it. I've wanted a certain Pokemon to be Uber in the past, for example. I'm not against banning Pokemon altogether...

EDIT : ChouToshio shares exactly the same view of this issue than I do. Read his post above instead of mine, as it sums what I'm trying to say better.

 

[Trust]

There will be some BLs because in this new UU tier some pokemon are too strong to the rest of UU.

MY list of suspects:
1.- Raikou
2.- Staraptor
3.- Shaymin

I only have problems with them. Raikou with it's amazing speed and special attack, and decent coverage, can really sweep a team without Chansey, and if a team must have a Chansey to deal with Raikou, it should be BL. Staraptor is beast banded, which can 2HKO almost everything with BB, CC and Return. Furthermore, U-Turn and Intimidate are really good weapons. Shaymin is too bulky, that's it's almost imposible to kill without some luck, furthermore, Seed Flare is a really annoying attack, although Regice and Registeel deal with it fine, Leech Seed and Earth Power are really annoying.

I don't see another suspect, because Gallade or Medicham hates Spiritomb or Uxie, while they can be good set up baits.

 

[Caelum]

T
I only have problems with them. Raikou with it's amazing speed and special attack, and decent coverage, can really sweep a team without Chansey, and if a team must have a Chansey to deal with Raikou, it should be BL.

There are a lot of things that counter Raikou besides Chansey, granted they are usually dependent on the Hidden Power type but still there are many counters besides Chansey.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Registeel and Steelix are some of the best Raikou counters around, and they just go for earthquake . . .

Hell, even earthquake/whirlwind hariyama can take care of Raikou if it needs too.

If Raikou is too strong, than to me it's got to be about the fact that, once it gets going, it can single handedly wipe out almost an entire team even if the opponent knows exactly what's about to happen.

If:
-You no longer have a really bulky physical attacker/phazer
-You no longer have a priority attack/sweeper faster than raikou who can 1hko

You have a very high chance of losing the game. The second option doesn't even work if Raikou's managed to sub already. One or two turns where you unwittingly left out a pokemon who raikou walls (roserade who's used leaf storm to kill, slowbro, milotic, choice-magneton, no-seismic-toss-wishchansey, porygon-2, rotom, etc.), and you could have potentially lost the game even if its 5 v. raikou (with your 1 knocked poke being your steelix).

I believe even those quick to under-score a pokes weaknesses will agree that Raikou does present this threat.

-Raikou can be forced out/countered by quite a few pokemon in UU
-While it's impressive on paper, it's not scary until it gets a few boosts down
-It's extremely predictable

And Yet: It ends a lot of games. Period.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Chansey is the 2nd best counter I've tried, the best being Steelix. Gastrodon and Registeel were goodish too, but the other 2 were better. I haven't tried anything else really.

I can't explain how relieved I am that Raikou has base 90 HP though. I always thought it had base 100. It was quite a nice surprise when I found out. :)

And I was just thinking, I've never seen a Mespirit. I think I might try it out.

I've also seen a lot of Venusaur lately. I didn't see any at the beginning, but I've seen a few over the past few days. I guess people opt for it over Roserade due to the improved defenses, and over Shaymin for protection against Toxic Spikes, and what is probably a better type combo overall. I think Shaymin is the best Grass-type in UU overall though.

 

[Syberia]

Chou - sounds a lot like Garchomp, don't you think?

On a side note, pretty much the only thing that can reliably beat Raikou + Magnet Rise Magneton is Roar Steelix. Which is incredibly uncommon. And even then, Steelix takes about 70% minimum from a Life Orb HP Fire/Ground from 'Ton on the turn it Roars, and if it EQs instead, Raikou can come in and revenge kill. Unless you want to resort to stupid shit like Gastrodon, who really serves no other purpose outside of countering Raikou.

I suppose Chansey can stop this as well, but Explosion on Magneton usually solves that problem.

Raikou @Expert Belt
Timid nature
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Thunderbolt
HP Ground
Signal Beam
Calm Mind

Magneton @Life Orb
Rash nature
252 Atk / 252 SpA / 6 Spe
Thunderbolt
HP Fire
Explosion
Magnet Rise

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

i like shuca on raikou better. however someone should try reflect! 3hko steelix what's up (4hko if they maxed spdef, which doesn't even matter since +1 hpfire/ground/fight will 2hko anyways)

 

[umbarsc]

and you could have potentially lost the game even if its 5 v. raikou (with your 1 knocked poke being your steelix).

If your entire team is slower than Raikou and you have only one check to Raikou, you have a bad team. If you sacrificed your only check to Raikou, you're a bad player (the I only partially agree with the latter though).

I'm not arguing that Raikou doesn't clean up well -- it does. What I am arguing, however, is whether that is due to Raikou being too powerful or if it's simply because of good strategy on the opponent's/your part.

Chou - sounds a lot like Garchomp, don't you think?

Raikou has Base 115 Speed and is in UU. Garchomp has Base 102 and was in OU. I don't see how it's that valid of a comparison. ALL Pokemon sweep if the opposing team is slower and has no counters to your Pokemon.

 

[Syberia]

Look at everything else Chou said, I think you'll find the same points came up a lot in the Garchomp discussion.

once it gets going, it can single handedly wipe out almost an entire team even if the opponent knows exactly what's about to happen.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Well, there wouldn't be much harm in it being tested, but I personally don't have a huge problem with it. Spiritomb gives me the most problems.

If everybody else finds Raikou broken, then we know what to do...

 

[Tleilax]

If your entire team is slower than Raikou and you have only one check to Raikou, you have a bad team. If you sacrificed your only check to Raikou, you're a bad player (the I only partially agree with the latter though).

I'm not arguing that Raikou doesn't clean up well -- it does. What I am arguing, however, is whether that is due to Raikou being too powerful or if it's simply because of good strategy on the opponent's/your part.

Raikou has 115 base speed. Out of all the fully evolved UU Pokemon, only 4 in nUU outrun it without a speed boost of some sort, and 3 more can hope to win a speed tie. Most of them cannot switch into Raikou and attempt to break it, especially if it's got a Sub up, and in other cases it depends on which Hidden Power it picks. Should one be forced to run either a Scarf or one of 7 Pokemon (correct me if I overlooked some) in order to revenge kill Raikou?

Can it be beaten? Yes. However, almost every time someone lists a counter it's either Registeel or Steelix. Not every team should have to run those, or some weird Gastrodon set, simply to counter Raikou. It often becomes a game of chance. You can counter it if it carries one Hidden Power but not another.

I find the Garchomp comparison fitting, since thus far it seems to be having a similar impact on nUU.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I find the Garchomp comparison fitting, since thus far it seems to be having a similar impact on nUU.

I disagree with this entirely. I'm ok with discussion on whether Raikou should be a suspect or not (it is one of the top threats after all, so uncertainty about it is expected), but please, can we cut out the comparisons to Garchomp?

Raikou is not comparable to Garchomp because:

1). Raikou has counters. Reliable ones too.
2). Garchomp's ability to sweep any given team in OU was not dependent on the moveset it was running. This is not the case with Raikou in UU.

Now of course Raikou may still be broken in UU, but it will be for completely different reasons than what Garchomp was banned for.

 

[Tleilax]

I was thinking more along the lines of a quite predictable moveset still being so dominant that ChouToshio brought up and Syberia emphasized, but point taken.

 

[umbarsc]

Should one be forced to run either a Scarf or one of 7 Pokemon (correct me if I overlooked some) in order to revenge kill Raikou?

Why not? If you're not, you should still be running more than one Pokemon that can counter Raikou. Plenty of examples have been given; Registeel, Regice, Muk, and Chansey are solid counters regardless of Hidden Power, and Steelix, opposing Electric-types (if they carry Roar, like Luxray or Raikou), and Shaymin (and other Grass-types) beat it if it runs the wrong Hidden Power type.

 

[Heysup]

The way i see it:

Raikou is comparable to Garchomp in the sense:

-You need multiple checks.
-Top Threat in the Metagame.
-Sets up fairly easy.
-Sweeps whole teams once set up.

But the differences are:

-Garchomp is not moveset dependent like Raikou.
-Garchomp needs one turn.
-Raikou is faster.
-Garchomp has two stabs.
-Obvious one, Garchomp is Physical, and Raikou is Special.
-Raikou has better counters.


So, while being similar in effect to the metagame, they are not really on the same scale.

 

[august]

I have been playing uu with a new team for about a week, and i have to say, the star of the show is constantly Life Orb Moltres. Very underrated, ive had Spiritomb try to Calm Mind up in my face, only to take 97% from Life Orb Fire Blast, followed by a U Turn to Claydol so i could spin away the entry hazards now that Tomb was gone. Life Orb Fire Blast also does upwards of 60% to Raikou, and it has even OHKO'd Registeel. U turn allows easing in prediction, and Roost + Air Slash fill the last 2 slots

 

[Cynthia]

Gastrodon got plenty of usage in the old UU and has good defenses and a solid movepool. Saying people are using it judt to counter Raikou is a large assumption.

Anyway, I've found Raikou fairly easy to stop overall, mainly due to its movepool issues. It uses Tbolt, which does not hit awesomely hard, and can cover some Pokemon with Hidden Power. Here's a little list I've compiled.

Chansey and Registeel can stop nearly all Raikou sets, regardless of what Hidden Power it chooses.

Camerupt and Steelix wall sets not carrying HP Water or Ground, if Raikou carries either of these Hidden Powers it is walled by any Grass type.

Gastrodon and Quagsire wall sets not carrying HP Grass.

Lanturn can wall sets not carrying Grass or Ground.

There are probably some more examples, but these are a lot of counters. Raikou can carry things like Shadow Ball to hit many of these for neutral damage, but that is usually insufficient to 2HKO, even after a Calm Mind.