The Finesse of Bulky Offense: Rising From the Depths [OU]

The Finesse of Bulky Offense: A Flash From the Past [OU]

The Finesse of Bulky Offense:
A Flash From the Past
*I changed the title; sue me.*

Before I begin, I'd like to thank you for checking out my RMT. I received the inspiration for this team by remembering a team I built a few months ago that was working extremely well on the ladder until Latias was introduced into the metagame. Now, I have placed my best effort into resurrecting a team that has been successful in the past and revamping it for use in the current metagame.

It is my goal to share how a team consisting of bulky offense is built and functions in the OU metagame. Of course, this team still has problems that I need help fixing.

This team has gotten me onto the leaderboard a few times, but I have stopped laddering for a while as I am trying to learn about the other metagames, not too mention hax was annoying me to no end.

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Preview:



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Metagross @ Occa Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP/224 Atk/12 Def/20 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Explosion


Metagross is nearly always the quintessential lead in any offensive team for its ability to deal with most other leads and always being able to set up Stealth Rock, as long as the opponent doesn't have Taunt. I used to run Jirachi over Metagross, but I felt Jirachi had a more difficult time in being able to set up Stealth Rock as Metagross is much more geared to being able to take hits from other leads. Metagross serves an effective check to many top-tier threats such as MixApe, who otherwise gives my team some trouble. Stealth Rock is an obvious must, Meteor Mash is used as a STAB move against Pokémon who don't resist, Earthquake hits other Steels, and Explosion makes sure I always take something down when Metagross is low on health. Swampert resists Fire-type attacks aimed at Metagross, and Celebi and Salamence can switch into Ground-type attacks. The Speed EVs given allow my own Metagross to outspeed opposing Metagross leads and KO them with Earthquake, as this team has no effective switches into an Explosion.

*On a side note, I'd like to share that the Jirachi I used to run over Metagross can be located in this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52480



Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Spe/240 SAtk/16 Atk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake / Brick Break
- Roost


Salamence has always been one of the Pokémon I like to include in my teams for its ability to cause massive damage while still being able to switch into a plethora of attacks due to great resistances. Salamence is my best option in being able to deal with stall, as my opponent has to predict correctly in order to avoid switching into the wrong attack. This Salamence uses the same EV spread developed by panamaxis so I am at least guaranteed a Speed tie with other base 100 Speed Pokémon. Draco Meteor and Fire Blast allow for optimal coverage, and Roost allows me to recover off damage, as keeping Salamence alive has always been one of my priorities. I've been using Earthquake for the most part, but I've decided to test Brick Break so I can hit Blissey harder. Metagross and Scizor can switch into Dragon and Ice-type attacks aimed at Salamence, while Swampert can switch into Rock-type attacks.



Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP/252 Atk/8 Spe
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit


Enter Scizor, the most overused Pokémon in the current standard metagame, yet one of the most effective when played right. Scizor has been a welcome addition to my team, as my pre-Latias version of this team had holes that Scizor has helped patch up. Scizor is my main response to dealing with Latias and non-Hidden Power Fire Celebi, which unfortunately prevent my Swampert from sweeping. Scizor also keeps Salamence in check should it get a Dragon Dance up. U-turn is used for scouting and going to an appropriate counter, Bullet Punch is used to hit faster foes who can threaten my team, Superpower hits Steel-types, while Pursuit makes sure I at the very least weaken Latias and Celebi into KO range from Heatran. The EVs are self-explanatory: 248 HP EVs allow me to switch 9 times into Stealth Rock instead of 8, while max attack lets me deal the highest amount of damage possible. 8 Speed EVs allow me to outspeed other Scizor, which has its own advantages and disadvantages. Fire-type attacks aimed at Scizor go to either Salamence, Heatran, or Swampert.



Celebi @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 228 HP/36 Spd/244 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Thunder Wave
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover


Celebi forms the first part of my CeleTranPert core on the team. Celebi has always been a nifty Pokémon to use, since it has helped me net many KO's in the past while still serving as an effective wall. Celebi was added to this team to help spread paralysis, and most of all, to counter Gyarados and Breloom, to an extent. Leaf Storm is Celebi's strongest attack and deals massive damage to anything that doesn't resist, Thunder Wave paralyses things that attempt to switch into Celebi, such as Heatran, Hidden Power Fire allows me to hit opposing Celebi and Scizor, while Recover allows me to keep Celebi healthy throughout the match. The EVs given allow me to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar before a Dragon Dance and OHKO with Leaf Storm after Stealth Rock, while 228 HP allows for optimal bulk. All of Celebi's weaknesses are covered by Heatran.



Heatran (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Dragon Pulse
- Explosion


Heatran forms the second part of my CeleTranPert core. Heatran serves as my team's check against Pokémon that run high Speed such as Gengar and Jolteon. Heatran gets numerous chances to switch in with its many resistances, and more often than not, it gets the job done; the only problem is being stuck into a move which my opponent can exploit to his advantage. Fire Blast is Heatran's main form of attacking, and anything that doesn't resist takes a large amount of damage from it. Earth Power hits opposing Heatran and other Fire types, Dragon Pulse helps in hitting Kingdra for super effective damage, and Explosion lets me get in a free switch while dealing severe damage to any Pokémon that does not resist as well. The EV spread on Heatran is standard, mimicking the one given on the analysis. All of Heatran's weaknesses are covered by Celebi.



Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP/40 Def/216 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Curse
- Waterfall
- Rest
- Sleep Talk



Swampert is the last Pokémon in my team's CeleTranPert core. Swampert has always been a useful Pokémon in my team which has pulled off a large number of wins over my battling career. Swampert is extremely simple to use, as Curse is easy to set up once Swampert's counters have been eliminated. The set itself is self-explanatory: Curse is used only when Swampert has a chance of being able to pull off a sweep while Rest / Sleep Talk keeps Swampert healthy, and last of all, Waterfall hits everything in the metagame bar Shedinja, and even Pokémon that resist Waterfall such as Gyarados lose to Swampert, as it's basically a battle of +6 Attack / +6 Defense vs. 0 Defense. The EVs were copied straight from the analysis for maximum efficiency, which allow Swampert to work as a great Heatran counter, and can even survive a MixApe's Grass Knot as full health as well as a +2 Attack Lucario's Close Combat, assuming I've used Curse at least once. Swampert's weakness to Grass-type attacks are covered by all other members of the team.

Threat List:
*Will update later*

Defensive Threats

Blissey: Swampert can switch into any of its moves and set up on it.

Bronzong: Bronzong isn't too much of a problem since my team remains pretty slow. Bronzong has no business trying to wall any of my Pokémon except Metagross anyways.

Celebi: Celebi is such a pain to deal with, especially if they carry Hidden Power Fire + Thunder Wave or are on a stall team. My best bet is to lure it out with Swampert and make a double switch into Salamence or something. Heatran and Celebi hit it for good damage too.

Cresselia: Scizor hits it for a large amount of damage with U-Turn. Swampert can set up on most Cresselia as well.

Donphan: I never see these anymore, but Celebi is the best counter I have.

Dusknoir: Swampert can set up on it without much trouble either. Heatran can switch into predicted Will-O-Wisp's, but Pressure hurts.

Forretress: Salamence, Celebi, and Heatran deal with it easily through the use of a Fire-type attack.

Gliscor: Celebi is my best counter to Gliscor, since Leaf Storm deals about 80% if I remember correctly. Baton Pass versions give my team major trouble though.

Gyarados: My Celebi deals a fair amount of damage with Leaf Storm. However, defensive Gyarados are tricky since I lack Electric-type moves.

Hippowdon: Celebi counters it perfectly and usually lures out another Pokémon that I can Thunder Wave.

Jirachi: My Salamence deals a large amount of damage with Fire Blast, and Heatran is the best counter to it anyways.

Rotom-A: My Swampert can set up against non-choiced Rotom-a, but I have to play carefully around Trick versions. Usually, my Metagross can lure them out and I get a free switch to Heatran on a predicted Overheat.

Skarmory: My Special attackers deal with it with ease.

Snorlax: Snorlax is tricky. My best bet is to switch straight to Scizor and Superpower it, putting it into KO range from my other Pokémon.

Suicune: Suicune is a bit tricky. However, a Leaf Storm from Celebi hurts it pretty badly, even with a Calm Mind. Draco Meteor from Salamence deals a fair amount assuming it hasn't gotten to many boosts.

Swampert: Celebi is a 100% counter.

Tentacruel: Metagross can hit it hard with Earthquake while being able to take a few Surf's. Salamence can also switch into any attack bar Ice Beam and hit it with Earthquake.

Tyranitar: Defensive Tyranitar are handled by Scizor, Metagross, and even Swampert, who can Curse along with it.

Vaporeon: Celebi can hit it hard with Leaf Storm, but the rest of my Pokémon have trouble with it.

Zapdos: Swampert counters Zapdos without Hidden Power Grass. Salamence OHKOes most Zapdos with Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock damage.


Offensive Threats:

Azelf

Breloom

Dragonite

Dugtrio

Electivire

Gallade

Gengar

Gyarados

Heatran

Heracross

Infernape


Jolteon

Kingdra

Lucario

Machamp

Magnezone

Mamoswine

Metagross

Porygon-Z

Salamence

Scizor

Starmie

Suicune

Togekiss

Tyranitar

Weavile

Yanmega

Zapdos

Additional Thoughts:

- I've been considering replacing my current Salamence with the SubToxic Zapdos set listed in the analysis. My main reasoning for this change is that Zapdos would help weaken Swampert's counter through Toxic, and stall would require less prediction to deal with overall.

- If possible, I think it would be for the benefit of this team if I replaced Heatran. Although it is helpful in eliminating Pokémon such as Lucario, it is extremely dangerous for this team losing the momentum as a Pokémon resisting Heatran's selected attack comes in.

- My former tutor, reachzero, suggested that I replace my current Salamence for the standard Dragon Dance set. However, I am hesistant with opting for this decision since I don't like to sacrifice Pokémon unless it is absolutely necessary, and in my opinion, most Salamence tend to die really quickly.

Accepted Suggestions:


Well, I suppose that's about all I had to share about my team. Whether you have suggestions to share, or simply want to base one of your teams off of mine, I'd like to thank you for taking a look at my RMT.
 
Gastrodon could be used over Swampert if you find Trick to be annoying.

There is a slight Gyarados weak if it gets a DD on a Heatran Fire Blast, but Celebi *should* cover that (barring a jolly bounce, stone edge variant but who uses that?).

Scizor really doesn't need the speed Evs unless you find you fight Vaporeon a fair amount of times.

I really have no idea what to replace Heatran with; maybe a Scarf-Rotom H or a SubRoost Toxic Zapdos?
 
Vaporeon is also immune to waterfall (and is something I've encountered a few times, though my opponents thankfully never realized the value of keeping their vaporeon alive).
I'm testing the team with DDmence, as that is the list you gave me. It works well, although, as you've stated, dies very easily. I should be able to get around to testing mixmence as well.
If you want a DDmence that will actually last a while there is always fatmence.

My testing account (the one where I'm using this team) is very close to leaderboard, and I could probably get it on if I simply played a little more with this team, so yes, it seems fairly solid.
I've only played a good stall team once (to my luck?) with this team that I remember (I unfortunately have the habit of going on autopilot, so I don't recall much), and lost that game. Stall seems like it would be very annoying to face, and I'm not sure what the specific plan to beating stall would be with this team.
Blissey is a problem with the two special attackers, and it is often annoying to deal with them.

I would have to agree with the statement on starmie in the threat list. Lead starmie (surprisingly the only ones I've faced) are generally very annoying to deal with.
Suicune isn't something I've had as much trouble with, though I see how it could be annoying, and think again perhaps I just got lucky (thankfully leaf storm does a lot of damage; suicune was still at high health but got one shotted even after a cm; not surprising considering tinkerbell can do the same to t-tar).

Heatran is an excellent revenge killer, however, I have to agree that it is somewhat annoying to use. I'm not someone who enjoys choice items all to much, and often it is very annoying to have to try and predict. Sometimes when revenge killing I don't like relying on the potentially shaky 85% accuracy of fireblast, but that isn't nearly as bothersome as being locked in sometimes is (I haven't been bitten by a fireblast miss yet, however). Overall, while I'm often not very comfortable using it, it has worked out well. I'm not sure what else can be so readily switched into a lead ape's blaze boosted fire blast.
If you want, I can try some different things in this slot.

Muramusaw,
Yes, Gyarados is generally handled quite well by celebi; t-wave makes it about useless, and leaf storm takes a huge chunk of health off.
As for vaporeon, I think it is nice to get the jump on it, if only because it is a counter to swampert.
 
Let me start by saying this is one of the best bulky-offensive teams I've seen. Changing the team members isn't the best idea as the current synergy is excellent. You can add additional SDef EVs on Scizor in order to have an easier time taking a +1 Surf from Latias and you can always ditch some EVs in HP and move them over into SDef.

Running BB on mence isn't a bad idea as it can nail the OHKO on Ttar which EQuake fails to do. EQuake on the other hand can take out heatran and provides great coverage. I'm pretty sure that bb doesn't get a OHKO on Blissey but it may be able to if it comes in on Draco. I would suggest outrage in place of roost but it seems your mence has enough support to switch in consitantley.

Metagross seems pretty key in this team so you can always run bp in place of explosion. The only reason you wouldn't if you are planning on using him simply for sr and then exploding late game. Using explosion later can be quite game breaking in my experience and azelf loses to gross if it taunts turn one but that usually means it doesn't have fire blast. I just realized in fact that bp isn't needed on lead gross anymore. Aero lead isn't as common as it used to be and most azelf are running taunt over fire blast because 'Gross would win with occa+MM+BP combo. The team looks pretty good and it's nice to see someone using a sweeper pert set. GL
 
I miss bullet punch sometimes (such as against lead ape). I may test it over explosion sometime, however explosion is generally very useful, so I think I will end up preferring explosion (netting kills against potential problem pokemon, like you said, can be game breaking).

EDIT:
One problem about taking out heatran would be that I wouldn't like this team to lose to many luke checks.
 

Stallion

Tree Young
is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Three-Time Past WCoP Champion
This is one of the more solid teams I have seen on the forums, but that is to be expected as you are a solid battler.

Curse Swampert is a wonderful pokemon, but the thing is you aren't really removing its counters are you? Vaporeon, Suicune and Celebi are the three biggest counters to this set, but you don't have anything to lure them in so as you can remove them easier. Vaporeon is easily handled by changing Heatran to a Sub/Toxic set. Its pretty much the same principle you wanted to apply with Zapdos > Salamence, except for the fact that Vaporeon actually likes switching into Tran usually, where as no Vap in their right mind would stay in on a Zapdos. Speaking of which, don't remove Salamence for Zapdos cause then you have a tough time breaking through Blissey.

If you decide to replace Scarfed Heatran for a SubToxic version, that opens up a rather nasty Lucario weakness, as it switches in on a Scizor pursuit and just destroys your not-so-bulky Celebi, as well as the rest of your team. I think your LeadJirachi would do rather well in your team again, or a Scarf Jirachi if you wish. They both have their merits, but so long as you outspeed Lucario then it doesn't really matter. Maybe Scarf Jirachi as your team is pretty bad set up bait for Salamence (Swampert - you can Curse alongside it but even a +0 outrage hurts, Heatran, Scizor locked into anything but Bullet Punch).

Another recommendation I have is changing your Scizor into a Life Orber with or without Swords Dance. The reason for this is that whilst your team is decently bulky, it isn't bulky enough for you to take a repeated savaging from Luke, Mence etc. With the flexibility to change between your attacks, nobody on your team is really set up bait anymore, Swampert can Curse, Celebi can paralyse shit etc. The power drop isn't that big, but if it is an issue consider raising Celebi's speed to outspeed Lucario. A + 2 Extremespeed still shouldn't OHKO so it should do you just fine as a 1 time counter.

Anyway I gotta go, but I may add more later. Gl with the team :)

EDIT: With Life Orb Scizor and more speed on Celebi, Jirachi isn't definitely needed in the team. Up to you whether you retest it.
 
MS, those are some good comments. I think I'll let Flashstorm reply to most of them.
Like you've said, it would entitle some heavy changes to turn heatran into a sub/toxic tran to avoid that massive luke weakness it opens up.

I haven't had all that much trouble with this happening, however I can cite my game against Krack. as a good example of your point:
In that game he was using a stall team (which would be enough to let me safely assume he likely had a celebi, although, I also played him before a couple of times while using a different team, and distinctly remembered that he did have a celebi).
Throughout our entire game, even though I generally tried to, even while bringing out pert (generally due to phazing), not reveal that it was a cursepert (perhaps my haste in getting it back out/not using anything other then waterfall was a givaway), he never sent out his celebi...until I got to swampert as my last pokemon and began a sweep, which is when it finally showed it's face and quickly dispatched the swampert for the win.

Evidently, not a single pokemon on his team did a good enough job to encourage/lure celebi to come out, letting him simply save it until the end.
Therefore, you're clearly right, although heatran at least often encourages vaporeon and suicune to at least show their faces, even if he can't actually remove them as threats in his current form.
I think your recomendation has to be considered (so as to avoid any more games like the one against Krack.), even though most people normally tend to reveal their celebis (and bulky waters) much more freely then Krack did.
 
Chunk about SubTran, LOScizor, LeadAchi, Making Celebi faster
I've never really thought about it, but I think you are right in me being unable to lure out Swampert's counters. The thing is, I built my team in an effort to win with any Pokémon I have remaining, and not just Swampert. I added Swampert because it helps fix weaknesses on this team, but by no means do I depend on it to sweep through the opponent.

As for Subtran, I think it would be a good set to test, as I have stated I hate being locked into Choice Scarf. However, the biggest issue is that I lose a lot of Speed.

I was actually thinking about using LOScizor, as described on the analysis, as I needed a more effective check against Latias and Starmie than my current set-up. However, I feel I lose a lot of power because a Banded Superpower is my only response to Snorlax, and overall, I like the power of Choice Band. Even without Choice Band, wouldn't I still be set-up bait for Lucario in the end?

I've tested LeadAchi with this team, and quite frankly, I just didn't like it much. It worked great on my suspect team, but it only had about 50% efficiency on standard since it just sat there doing nothing for most of the battle, and I didn't even get Stealth Rock up each time. However, I found the best thing about it was its Speed, so I may re-test at a later date.

Also, I can't afford to make Celebi any faster, because if I transition HP EVs to Speed, it means that Celebi will lose to DDGyara carrying Ice Fang, and quite frankly, I'd rather take my chances with Lucario.

Out of everything, the best option might be to make Heatran into a SubTran and change Metagross back to Jirachi.

Thanks for the help.

P.S. Any suggestions in fixing my weakness to LOStarmie and LOCune? I normally just handle Cune with Draco Meteor, but LO Starmie outspeeds everything on my team bar Heatran, which has no business staying in.

P.P.S. I just noticed all of your suggestions would indeed open me up to a MixApe sweep, so I can't afford changing Heatran's set at this point as I don't think I can keep Metagross at full health the entire match, as otherwise, my chances of surviving Fire Blast are slim.
 
I actually would strongly advise you not to change Heatran to the sub set. You will be looking at huge SD Luke weakness if you do so, seeing as Salamence is weakened. Also as you mentioned, the Nape weakness. The team looks decent as it is, but I don't really see what it can do vs. stall. Cursepert is ruined by Celebi, who isn't threatened by Scizor once Reflect is up. Mence, I guess is your best bet at weakening stall, but idk, I don't really see it winning vs. stall. I'll try to think of some suggestions in the future. I'm mostly posting right now because you asked me to ^_^.

Oh, as for LO Starmie, you should probably just sacrifice something and get Scizor in. Bulk his sp.def up so he can survive a hit, and always use Pursuit to guarantee it's gone in the future. Not the most efficient way of dealing w/ a Poke, but that's what happens when you use a team that lacks speed.
 
while not the best idea, you can carry zen headbutt/psychic(with a tweaked ev spread but more reliable) on scarfed jirachi to deal with mixape since uturn isn't exactly of paramount importance. he should now beat lucario and mixape with little trouble provided he holds onto the scarf.

Heatran could then become the sub toxic set to more effectivly deal with some common counters to swampert, who seems to be the plan A even if you do want to others to be capable of the job also.

I'd say at least give it a go and see if it doesn't solve more problems than it causes.
 

remlabmez

@dacopboss
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
I dont see sub tran working with this team that you have here unless you make some major tweaks or else luke will just come in and ramrod your team.

Like I have said before I feel that something is missing I just cant pinpoint it, other mixmence you pretty much fall to stall. Maybe adding trick on celebi as it seems you are trying to run an offensive one but keep an element of suprise.

Anyways il post back later when I can think of what i feel is missing from your team
 

Scimjara

Bert Stare
is a Tutor Alumnus
I run a very similar team like that, but the only differences were that I had a CurseLax instead of a CursePert, and my team lead me #3 on the leaderboard, but I just decided to drop off for a week, and my name was gone.

Now I had one thing I ran a C-Minding Celebi, with Hidden Power [Fire] which allowed me to have a back up on getting rid of Lucario since you have a weakness to it, and I'm pretty damn sure that Celebi can live a Crunch by Lucario with out a Swords Dance. I ran the common set found on smogon helped me a lot, also since you only have one pokemon who sets up which isn't very good since it only has two attacking moves. So Calm Minding Celebi allows you to set up during switchs providing Coverage. Hidden Power [Fire] allows you to be a great steel counter, than Grass Knot for bulky water, mainly Swampert. Then Calm Mind boosts up your SAtk, and SDef stat to the max lols. Finnaly Recover to boost back so lost Hp from SR, Sand Storm, Status Condtitions, and w/e.

I would remove Sleep Talk allowing you to place another move in there for more coverage such as Earthquake which helps a ton against Heatran, and others weak to ground since some things may resist water, but you still have rest to regain Hp, and Since your bulky ith Curse waking up won't be much of a problem for you.

Thats all good team Flashstorm1.
 
Interesting team. Looking at it, I noticed that the pokemon (from my personal viewpoint) fall into three defensive synergies: SalaGross, CeleTran and SwampZor, all of which have rather excellent defensive synergy. When I build bulky offense teams around offensive synergies, as I often do, I've noticed that it is extremely easy to use Steels in the synergies. And this is by no means a bad thing, Steel being as it is a dominant type in the game. My own rather limited experience has been that having your synergies aligned into their own, higher form of synergy is vital. Everything I've said is pretty confusing (even to me) but I just think about it this way.
Flygon/Metagross and Salamence/Jirachi are both excellent defensive synergies, but the problem is they are too similar. A wallbreaker who can break one will break both.

It's apparent, then, that Infernape will run down much of your team. I'd suggest opting out one of your combos with another one, this time including an Infernape counter. Latias could simply replace Salamence, of course. Or working Rotom-A onto your team, but unfortunately I don't know a decent partner for it.
Whoa, long post but short suggestion. Hope it helps, unlikely as that is.
 

Stallion

Tree Young
is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Three-Time Past WCoP Champion
while not the best idea, you can carry zen headbutt/psychic(with a tweaked ev spread but more reliable) on scarfed jirachi to deal with mixape since uturn isn't exactly of paramount importance. he should now beat lucario and mixape with little trouble provided he holds onto the scarf.

Heatran could then become the sub toxic set to more effectivly deal with some common counters to swampert, who seems to be the plan A even if you do want to others to be capable of the job also.

I'd say at least give it a go and see if it doesn't solve more problems than it causes.
Yeah actually what he said. Zen Headbutt Jirachi does the exact same thing as Scarfed Heatran in terms of not being able to switch in easily on Infernape, but being able to revenge it. One thing I don't like about Choiced ground attacks in Plat is that Ground Immune sweepers (Salamence, Gyarados, Gengar) can just use the free turns and pretty much fuck with your team. The only thing that is setup bait for Zen Headbutt is DDTar (who you deal with pretty well actually thanks to Jira + Pert) so you might wanna give it a try. I dunno, I'm afraid to suggest anything else because any changes to cover your newfound Infernape weakness may open up other weaknesses and stuff, and I can't pretend I know your team better then you do.
 
After reading the previous posts, I think I will be testing CMLatias in lieu of MixMence in an attempt to cover weaknesses located on my current team, at the risk of being slightly more weak to SDLuke, but meh. If I run Refresh, I think I should be able to beat Stall easily enough as well.
 
IMO, you really need Bullet Punch somewhere on your Metagross.

With the current moveset, you do not successfully "beat" any of the leads. MM+BP is necessary to take on the suicide leads, and EQ+BP is necessary to beat infernape. IMO with your current set, Metagross can "deal" with everything, but doesn't actually win. Its too bad he severely suffers from that 4 slot move syndrome, but there isn't much you can do; choose which leads you want to beat, and just make Metagross be able to take them off.

In summary: either MM+BP+Explosion or MM+BP+EQ. BP+EQ+Explosion is sometimes viable as well.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
is a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Since I switched over to using lead Metagross, I've been using Stealth Rock/Meteor Mash/Earthquake/Bullet Punch, and it really does work nicely. Do I ever miss having Explosion? Yes. But having priority to finish off Azelf and Infernape is worth it. Also, it's nice never wasting an Explosion against predicted Ghosts.
 
This team is week to water types in general.
I repeatedly lose to sweeps from the likes of gyarados (jolly LO bounce gyarados, or ice fang gyara that gets some flinch/freeze hax), suicune, and starmie when using this team.
Perhaps the fact that I'm testing meteor mash/bullet punch/eq/sr as the metagross moveset contributes to this (but now he does work much better as a lead; rotom leads, used by pokemon sucks, smeargle leads, starmie leads, and perhaps forry leads are the only ones I can immediately remember that it loses against that I encountered today).

Either way, the team is fairly solid, and landed my testing account on the leaderboard while testing it. For a long time my mean rating continued to rise, but eventually my lucky streak ended, and I began encountering people using water type pokemon (which started to rack up the losses, leading my CRE to stabilize at around 1565, and my mean rating to continuously drop over time).
I fell off for a reason described at the end of this post.

The problem with testing the following latias:
latias @ leftovers; timid
148 HP / 108 SpA / 252 Spe
recover/cm/refresh/dragon pulse

Is that it really does make the team have a lot more problems with luke. Luke can set up on it when dragon pulse is my only attack (rather then the pokemon in this slot serving as a check). I've had to use mence many times to save myself from suffering from a luke sweep; I feel like that would really open up a lot of problems.
Starmie can still 2hko latias.

Lucario sounds like a good idea.

Unfortunately, however, I cannot test anything any more.
My internet has finally been fixed (after being broken since monday morning; I could however play wednesday due to going somewhere else with internet). However, ever since it was fixed, my internet auto-disconnects and reconnects regularly. The period in which I'm disconected is so brief that I hardly ever realize when browsing, but it is just long enough to make me autolose whichever game I'm playing, making battling impossible without disconecting. I've gotten disconnected from 2/3s of the games I played since it game back on, so I'm quiting until this problem gets fixed, if ever.
 

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